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MB_Avro_UK
09-26-2007, 02:35 PM
Hi all,

What's wrong with this sim? Hurricanes with 8 0.303 inch guns made 66% of Battle of Britain kills.

But I don't see this effect when flying a Hurricane. It should be easy to destroy a Heinkel bomber or 109.Its a historical fact!

Typical Oleg bias...

I'd sooner have four 50s.

(I'll now enter my flame-proof concrete bunker with dial-up and live on tea and crumpets for the next month http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif)

See you all in four weeks,
MB_Avro.

MB_Avro_UK
09-26-2007, 02:35 PM
Hi all,

What's wrong with this sim? Hurricanes with 8 0.303 inch guns made 66% of Battle of Britain kills.

But I don't see this effect when flying a Hurricane. It should be easy to destroy a Heinkel bomber or 109.Its a historical fact!

Typical Oleg bias...

I'd sooner have four 50s.

(I'll now enter my flame-proof concrete bunker with dial-up and live on tea and crumpets for the next month http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif)

See you all in four weeks,
MB_Avro.

VMF-214_HaVoK
09-26-2007, 03:17 PM
Until we get a more accurate damage model like the one we should have in SoW this will always be an issue for MG rounds. We just dont have enough failures modeled.

S!

VW-IceFire
09-26-2007, 03:17 PM
Is it a full moon today? It is...isn't it?

MB_Avro_UK
09-26-2007, 03:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Is it a full moon today? It is...isn't it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So that's the reason I've...

Best Regards as I bay to the mooooon.
MB_Avro.

Irish_Rogues
09-26-2007, 03:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Is it a full moon today? It is...isn't it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The moon effects the tides, and tides effect the fishing.....http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

VMF-214_HaVoK
09-26-2007, 03:39 PM
I sure hope this was not a poor fishing attempt as I took you serious Avro and would not take you for the type to start one. You did see the post regarding Airmail posted by Ivan didnt you? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

S!

Xiolablu3
09-26-2007, 03:40 PM
The .303's are fine.

You need to get close, just like the real battle.

Thats one big complaint I had with BOB2 WOV, the German planes went down with just a few tiny lonmg range hits from the .303's, which is daft.

I really didnt seee any difference in strength of firepower between the 20mm MGFF and the Britsh 8x.303 mgs, when in fact the 20mm cannons =should be far far more destructive, and the .303 only really effective at very close range, as in IL2.

Kurfurst__
09-26-2007, 03:43 PM
FISH ! FISH ! FISH ! FISH ! FISH !

ElAurens
09-26-2007, 03:52 PM
By the time of the Second World War the .303 British rimmed cartridge was obsolescent at best.

The British Army had wanted to replace it before WW1, but did not move fast enough and kept it for logistical reasons only.

The .303 made it's appearance in 1888 in the first British turnbolt rifle, the Lee Metford. After the Metford type rifling was found to be wanting, the Enfield designed rifling was adopted in the Long Lee Enfield. (I have one BTW), which evolved into the SMLE.

As a machine gun cartridge it was perfectly adequate for aerial combat, in WW1.

It was seriously lacking as an aircraft round by the time of WW2, as were all rifle calibre rounds of all nations.

If anything the .303 as modeled in our little game are too powerful.

MB_Avro_UK
09-26-2007, 03:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
I sure hope this was not a poor fishing attempt as I took you serious Avro and would not take you for the type to start one. You did see the post regarding Airmail posted by Ivan didnt you? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi HaVoK,

No..not a fishing thread. Its just that I get frustrated at the lengthy 50s posts/threads which seem to go nowhere but take up space.

And no-one has an opinion one way or another about the 303 (US made BTW).

Is the 303 modelled ok and the 50 not?

I started a thread recently asking why the US didn't adopt canons. I appreciate now that there were logistics/availability issues for the US at the time.

But I suspect that if suitable canons had been available we would not be discussing 50s.

And probably the kill stats of P-51s and P-47s in WW2 would have been even higher http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

MB_Avro_UK
09-26-2007, 04:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
FISH ! FISH ! FISH ! FISH ! FISH ! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Kurfurst!

There is humour in my post...

As I said to Havok, it is a frustrated response to endless discussions about the 50s.

And I thought you had a sense of humour along with expert knowledge,the admiration of beautiful women and an ability to enjoy and appreciate fine wine.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

ElAurens
09-26-2007, 04:03 PM
The .303 British was most certainly not US made.

Although the Lee type action was designed by an American, and some Mk. IV Lee Enfield rifles were manufactured by Savage Arms in the US for Lend Lease. As were the P-1914 Enfield rifles which were made by Wincester, Remington and Eddystone.

SeaFireLIV
09-26-2007, 04:13 PM
Ah, british humour, don`t ya just love it. The problem many misunderstand it is because it`s unique to Britain. most nations either take you too seriously or get angry because they don`t get it. Oh the joys I`ve had with other nationalities completely misunderstanding a simple joke and telling me to FO repeatedly. Oh yes.


In reply to our non-joking British friend, I believe that the 0.303`s are absolutely fine, since I do not expect them to do more than they would realistically do. That`s if you can hear me in your flame-proof bunker. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

leitmotiv
09-26-2007, 04:30 PM
Close range is the key. I have always thought the .303 was well-modeled. If you use them against the flimsy 109E or 110C at point-blank range, they just crumple---as they should. Against the He 111H-2 B of B Heinkel they are more problematical. You have to high side the sucker and give it to him at point-blank. Best of all, head-on---right into the glasshouse. The AI always stands off and hoses the Heinkels---even this method usually results in fuel leaks for them. Whenever I stand off and hose one, I usually catch a 7.9mm in the face. Since the Hur I in the game is really a Finnish Hur, I wonder about the modeling of ammunition. Is the DeWilde incendiary in the mix? The best evidence for the relative ineffectiveness of .303 ammunition was the famous photo of the bellied-in He 111 with bullet holes in it from stem to stern. The pilot wasted his ammunition shooting at the fuselage. The oldest Hurricane squadron, 111, trained in what became the classic anti-bomber tactic: they lined up wing tip to wing tip and roared in on the Heinkels. They were able to break the Valhalla formations this way. Clever sods. The only way to really get a feeling for what it was like to attack a massed formation of Heinkels closed up for defensive purposes is to play BOB II. I found .303s to be well-nigh useless in that sim until I was right on top of a bomber. The defensive gunfire is not a supernaturally deadly as in IL-2---you can charge pell mell right at a formation from its six o'clock, and proceed to barrel right through the formation shooting all the way with a good chance of survival. You may leave behind one or more smoking Heinkels.

Jediteo
09-26-2007, 04:32 PM
303s are excellent in attacking bombers from head on, the sheer mass of bullets increases the chance of a PK. Also very good for shredding oil radiators (109s with open rads are my favs (hey that rhymes!))

MB_Avro_UK
09-26-2007, 04:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Ah, british humour, don`t ya just love it. The problem many misunderstand it is because it`s unique to Britain. most nations either take you too seriously or get angry because they don`t get it. Oh the joys I`ve had with other nationalities completely misunderstanding a simple joke and telling me to FO repeatedly. Oh yes.


In reply to our non-joking British friend, I believe that the 0.303`s are absolutely fine, since I do not expect them to do more than they would realistically do. That`s if you can hear me in your flame-proof bunker. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I think that the written word is not subtle enough at times to convey humour. Humour is international but language is not.

Its taken me quite a long time to log-on here in my deep,deep bunker with my primitive 7k dial-up. I hope you all get this message before the crumpets run out... Maybe they'll run back later?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

SeaFireLIV
09-26-2007, 04:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:



I think that the written word is not subtle enough at times to convey humour. Humour is international but language is not.

Its taken me quite a long time to log-on here in my deep,deep bunker with my primitive 7k dial-up. I hope you all get this message before the crumpets run out... Maybe they'll run back later?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea, ya probably right. Not good to get too familiar on a forum.

And I`d catch those crumpets fast if I were you, cos everyone likes a bit of crumpet.

leitmotiv
09-26-2007, 04:47 PM
With the English, you know you are being had by the tone, or by a look. Americans love to deadpan. We are experts in stating the completely ridiculous as if we meant it. I used to crack up my London friends by declaring the most absurd things to be true with a perfectly straight face. They didn't know quite how to take it. Americans love to add on layers of absurdity with completely straight faces until the ridiculousness finally causes the dam to break and they all crack up at the gallows humor. Americans are used to getting the shaft by politicians, businesses, or whatever. Our humor is often based on calculated insincerity to the point of the ridiculous.

MB_Avro_UK
09-26-2007, 04:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
With the English, you know you are being had by the tone, or by a look. Americans love to deadpan. We are experts in stating the completely ridiculous as if we meant it. I used to crack up my London friends by declaring the most absurd things to be true with a perfectly straight face. They didn't know quite how to take it. Americans love to add on layers of absurdity with completely straight faces until the ridiculousness finally causes the dam to break and they all crack up at the gallows humor. Americans are used to getting the shaft by politicians, businesses, or whatever. Our humor is often based on calculated insincerity to the point of the ridiculous. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Leitmotiv!

The above describes me to a tee. Maybe there is some US ancestory in my blood http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

zardozid
09-26-2007, 05:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Until we get a more accurate damage model like the one we should have in SoW this will always be an issue for MG rounds. We just dont have enough failures modeled. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

leitmotiv
09-26-2007, 05:14 PM
There were some damn fine English practitioners, too, MBA. I think the key was an appreciation of the irony of being had yet again by the b-----ds.

SeaFireLIV
09-26-2007, 05:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
With the English, you know you are being had by the tone, or by a look. Americans love to deadpan. We are experts in stating the completely ridiculous as if we meant it. I used to crack up my London friends by declaring the most absurd things to be true with a perfectly straight face. They didn't know quite how to take it. Americans love to add on layers of absurdity with completely straight faces until the ridiculousness finally causes the dam to break and they all crack up at the gallows humor. Americans are used to getting the shaft by politicians, businesses, or whatever. Our humor is often based on calculated insincerity to the point of the ridiculous. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like dead-pan sarcasm to me.

Monty_Thrud
09-26-2007, 05:16 PM
Listen up peeps, i've sussed it, the 0.303s should be more powerful than the .50s, cuz, there's more numbers innit, innit?, thus tis biggerer and therfore MO! powererfuller...BOOYAKKA!...NEXT!(who is this rAaid?). http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

leitmotiv
09-26-2007, 05:20 PM
It's more than mere sarcasm, that's for teenagers. It's loading on layer and layer of absurdity as if you mean it to the point reason finally breaks through and the joke is apparent. It's like the ending of Sartre's story "The Wall" when the protagonist suddenly realizes he is not going to be shot.

SeaFireLIV
09-26-2007, 05:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Monty_Thrud:
Listen up peeps, i've sussed it, the 0.303s should be more powerful than the .50s, cuz, there's more numbers innit, innit?, thus tis biggerer and therfore MO! powererfuller...BOOYAKKA!...NEXT!(who is this rAaid?). http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, he`s right!

0.303`s should be more powerful than 0.50s because I thinks so. and they`re longer and sharper looking and they come out of better made barrels than are smoother than the barrels 0.50s come out of! And they have a little Union jack printed on the shell too, guaranteed to explode an HE111.

disgusting that this isn`t fix.

WHY? WHY isn`t it fixxxxxxxexexexexddd!


Now that`s well over the top sarcasm, I think...

Gibbage1
09-26-2007, 05:24 PM
There are no radiators modeled in IL2 DM, so there are no easy .303 kills.

SeaFireLIV
09-26-2007, 05:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
It's more than mere sarcasm, that's for teenagers. It's loading on layer and layer of absurdity as if you mean it to the point reason finally breaks through and the joke is apparent. It's like the ending of Sartre's story "The Wall" when the protagonist suddenly realizes he is not going to be shot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes. I get it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

MB_Avro_UK
09-26-2007, 05:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
There are no radiators modeled in IL2 DM, so there are no easy .303 kills. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Gibbage,

But does the il2 not have a vulnerable radiator? I may be wrong (again!).

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

VMF-214_Pappy
09-26-2007, 05:41 PM
Lets start a 30mm pumpkin chuncking mk108 underpowered thread see what we get.

Gibbage1
09-26-2007, 05:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
There are no radiators modeled in IL2 DM, so there are no easy .303 kills. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Gibbage,

But does the il2 not have a vulnerable radiator? I may be wrong (again!).

Best Regards,
MB_Avro. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not a single aircraft in IL2 has a radiator thats damageable. Only oil cooler. Oddly, this game was designed around a liquid cooled aircraft (the IL2), so its exclusion of a radiator damage system is beyond me.

Skoshi Tiger
09-26-2007, 06:37 PM
The MKVII .303 ammunition used in the rifle had a 174gn projectile. It had an aluminium core at the front of the projectile to make it base heavy so when it hit a soft target like a person it would topple end over end. (often breaking apart as they did so! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif)

Now I know that the machine gun version (MK8) of the bullet had a different projectile. It also was 174gn, but was boat tailed and was driven at about 100 or so f/s faster.

Does anyone know if they had the aluminium core as well? Or were they solid? Depending how they modeled the projectile would have a huge influence on how much penetration/damage caused to something hard like an aircraft internal structure.

leitmotiv
09-26-2007, 06:47 PM
RAF .303 "Ball" ammunition was a steel armor-penetrator without explosive content. They also had an explosive round, and an incendiary round. Ball put those cute little round holes in Heinkel fuselages.

ElAurens
09-26-2007, 07:06 PM
Any way you slice it, it's still a rifle calibre round.

ImpStarDuece
09-26-2007, 07:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
Any way you slice it, it's still a rifle calibre round. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I lived in the US, I could buy a .50 caliber rifle. So "rifle caliber round" doesn't really mean that much http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

(Actually, I could buy a .787 caliber rifle as well...)

ElAurens
09-26-2007, 07:32 PM
Oh come on.

You know exactly what I mean.

If I had started a post stating that the US .30-06 found as fired by the early P40 and the P39 wing guns was underpowered you lot would be jumping up and down claiming how it was just a rifle bullet. Even though it is a more powerful round than the .303 British.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Skoshi Tiger
09-26-2007, 08:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
Oh come on.

You know exactly what I mean.

If I had started a post stating that the US .30-06 found as fired by the early P40 and the P39 wing guns was underpowered you lot would be jumping up and down claiming how it was just a rifle bullet. Even though it is a more powerful round than the .303 British.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The 30-06's ARE underpowered!!!!!!!

Also the RAF changed their 30-06 to .303 in their P40's in most cases

M_Gunz
09-26-2007, 08:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
Hi all,

What's wrong with this sim? Hurricanes with 8 0.303 inch guns made 66% of Battle of Britain kills.

But I don't see this effect when flying a Hurricane. It should be easy to destroy a Heinkel bomber or 109.Its a historical fact!

Typical Oleg bias...

I'd sooner have four 50s.

(I'll now enter my flame-proof concrete bunker with dial-up and live on tea and crumpets for the next month http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif)

See you all in four weeks,
MB_Avro. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When you meet up with Aimail could you two send a postcard?
Where does Ivan send yas anyway? Spain? The Riviera? Or Lurkerville?

IFly_1968
09-27-2007, 08:43 AM
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-91018958620440...ype=search&plindex=1 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9101895862044064019&q=20mm+tests&total=18&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1)

leitmotiv
09-27-2007, 08:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IFly_1968:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-91018958620440...ype=search&plindex=1 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9101895862044064019&q=20mm+tests&total=18&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very instructive, IFly!

BAG.LordDante
09-27-2007, 09:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_Pappy:
Lets start a 30mm pumpkin chuncking mk108 underpowered thread see what we get. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Whirlin_merlin
09-27-2007, 09:26 AM
Page 2 and nobodies made the effortless transition into an overmoddelled uber-gunners thread.

Oh well I'll have a bash.

The .303s are as effective as they should be against a bomber but if you get close enough to use them.......

Actually I can't be bothered.

Edit: Gosh that makes it page 3

SlickStick
09-27-2007, 10:01 AM
Ah, the Hurri Mk. IIb with 12, yes, 12 .303 guns, is quite a killer. Many black smoke 109 engines, pilot kills and de-wingers. And personally, I think they make a cool-*** sound when fired. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

As all have stated, you have to get close and hit at convergence. Just like the .50s, I feel they are very effective when you follow the tactics in RL gunnery manuals.

leitmotiv
09-27-2007, 01:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
Ah, the Hurri Mk. IIb with 12, yes, 12 .303 guns, is quite a killer. Many black smoke 109 engines, pilot kills and de-wingers. And personally, I think they make a cool-*** sound when fired. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

As all have stated, you have to get close and hit at convergence. Just like the .50s, I feel they are very effective when you follow the tactics in RL gunnery manuals. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right on all---yes, I forgot to mention convergence---with .303 I use 100 meters, and usually shoot closer if I can. The Hur IIB can definitely rip an airplane a new -------.

Kurfurst__
09-27-2007, 02:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
There are no radiators modeled in IL2 DM, so there are no easy .303 kills. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Gibbage,

But does the il2 not have a vulnerable radiator? I may be wrong (again!).

Best Regards,
MB_Avro. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not a single aircraft in IL2 has a radiator thats damageable. Only oil cooler. Oddly, this game was designed around a liquid cooled aircraft (the IL2), so its exclusion of a radiator damage system is beyond me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You sure of that ? I could swore I had many glycol leaks from the wings of the 109 and there's no fuel line there, only the coolant radiators... but then perhaps my memory is cheating me, I've long not flown anything.

Xiolablu3
09-27-2007, 04:05 PM
All guns are really underpowered for the job of air warfare in WW2.

Thats why every country moved onto 20mm cannon.

A mix of the two is best because then you get the destructive effect of the cannon, and also the piercing/spray effect of the machine guns for soft targets like humans or fuel tanks.

Noone should be surprised that any sort of machine gun, .303 or a little bigger, .50, is not going to be anywhere near as destructive as 20mm (or lerger) cannon.

falling-bird
09-27-2007, 04:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> It's like the ending of Sartre's story "The Wall" when the protagonist suddenly realizes he is not going to be shot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was 2/3rds the way through that...

Bugger

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif