PDA

View Full Version : Normalized Dodges



Han-Singular
06-28-2018, 09:12 PM
I thought all “side dodges” were suppose to be “normalized”.

Can someone explain to me then why Highlander still has a “500ms side dodge” in aggressive stance?

The argument or debate that he can’t block while in aggesive stance is negated by his ability to dodge and recover faster than anyone can attack. Coupled by guaranteed unblockable heavies off of kicks and throws that can’t be avoided unless you dodge roll or like attack at the right moment.

While Aramusha just gets nerfed into the dirt..

This is not a nerf highlander thread, more an inquiry on why the decision was made or over looked.

Fairemont
06-28-2018, 09:14 PM
I thought all “side dodges” were suppose to be “normalized”.

Can someone explain to me then why Highlander still has a “500ms side dodge” in aggressive stance?

The argument or debate that he can’t block while in aggesive stance is negated by his ability to dodge and recover faster than anyone can attack. Coupled by guaranteed unblockable heavies off of kicks and throws that can’t be avoided unless you dodge roll or like attack at the right moment.

While Aramusha just gets nerfed into the dirt..

This is not a nerf highlander thread, more an inquiry on why the decision was made or over looked.

It's based on his stance and is a feature of the stance.

Just like Nobushi still (should) have her dodge recovery cancel capabilities.

Aramush does not have anything to modify his dodge capabilities like these other characters do.

Han-Singular
06-28-2018, 09:39 PM
Um no. First off that’s not how nobushi works, you don’t cancel dodge recovery, you cancel attack recovery by dodging. That has nothing to do with this post. I main nobushi.

Secondly, fast dodges is part of aramushas kit, he doesn’t have the best openers, so dodging was a way to help open people up for their mistakes.

But we’re talking about Highlander. When they say “we are normalizing all side dodges” that implies that “All” will be subject to the same change.

Fairemont
06-28-2018, 09:45 PM
Um no. First off that’s not how nobushi works, you don’t cancel dodge recovery, you cancel attack recovery by dodging. That has nothing to do with this post. I main nobushi.

Secondly, fast dodges is part of aramushas kit, he doesn’t have the best openers, so dodging was a way to help open people up for their mistakes.

But we’re talking about Highlander. When they say “we are normalizing all side dodges” that implies that “All” will be subject to the same change.

Well...

Pretty sure I just said it is a feature of his particular stance, but you clearly didn't want to hear that, so you're likely not going to accept any other reason that anyone else gives you unless they also agree that highlander's offensive stance should have its dodges nerfed as well. If they did that, however, they'd have to give him some other form of defense. You'd probably not like that any better.

Han-Singular
06-28-2018, 10:07 PM
Well, looking at the description of Highlander’s offensive stance in the moveset.

Offensive Form and Defensive Form - Highlander's Guard Mode has two forms: Defensive Form has access to Block, Parry, and Guardbreak. Offensive Form has access to Unblockable attacks.

No where does it say his dodge capabilities are enhanced in anyway...

Fairemont
06-28-2018, 10:21 PM
Well, looking at the description of Highlander’s offensive stance in the moveset.

Offensive Form and Defensive Form - Highlander's Guard Mode has two forms: Defensive Form has access to Block, Parry, and Guardbreak. Offensive Form has access to Unblockable attacks.

No where does it say his dodge capabilities are enhanced in anyway...

According to the devs, his Offensive Stance specifically gives him a 'special dodge'. That dodge is not considered the equivalent of other dodges.

SenBotsu893
06-29-2018, 02:23 PM
Developer comment:We’re recently normalized timing and movement for backward dodge. We’re also now standardizing side dodges, allowing us to better predict what moves you can punish on dodge.

this pretty much says they want EVERYONE to have the same dodge recovery. i gues Highlander has been overlooked

Vakris_One
06-29-2018, 02:49 PM
Highlander hasn't been overlooked. If he didn't have a superior dodge in offensive stance he would be very weak in that form outside of going into it for occassional punishes after a parry, counter crush or wall splat. Which would force him to become an uber turtle and you definitely wouldn't like that any better than his OS dodges. At least you have plenty of chances to attack him out of OS stance whereas if he turtles the game turns into a staring contest.

Thorstein31
06-29-2018, 03:00 PM
Changing dodge recovery time on HL of Stance Will break the hero. Of stance is unique and must be dealt with as it is.

Knight_Raime
06-29-2018, 05:49 PM
Highlanders 400ms dodge in OF was not touched because they consider his "better" dodge to be apart of his offensive form. When they announced they were going to normalize all side dodges they were asked by the competitive community if highlanders offensive dodge was going to be hit with this. Pope responded a day or 2 later saying he talked to the fight team and they said no. So it wasn't over looked they left it alone on purpose.

They had stated in their last seasons recap that they were going to keep an eye on highlanders offensive dodge. So either they left it alone because they're planning on changing it in some special/different way whenever they decide to do a hero update for him again. OR they're done looking and have decided to leave it alone.

In my opinion I personally don't like anyone having the ability to dodge through everything. But I recognize that it's a big part of why his offensive form even works. So i'd rather they just nerf Balors Might's damage based on how he manages to land it. Because sure it sucks to have someone dodge through my hit. But it sucks even more to be dodge kicked into 40 damage. As for aramusha's better dodge being "apart of his kit" I would say that's debatable.

He doesn't have any kind of dodge attacks. Nor does him dodging through attacks get him into anything for his kit. it just allowed him easier access to GB's. Him dodging through things isn't a technique used by most players. It wasn't even really known until high rep Mushu's were sharing their techniques with him. His overall performance from this nerf isn't shifting him dramatically. 500ms dodge times are not healthy for the game imho. And even if this did enable Mushu to not be dumpster tier it shouldn't stay because of that. He should be reworked. If offensive form dodge wasn't so integral to HL's play then i'd be right there asking for it to be nerfed. Unfortunately it is apart of his kit. and unless they make offensive form better in some other way or making defensive form his primary form and it gets a lot better it unfortunately has to stay. But the damage he does shouldn't.

Fairemont
06-29-2018, 08:02 PM
You could have gotten the same treatment as Nobushi and had half your kit turned into uselessness.

So, at least you got that going for you and your Aramusha.

Han-Singular
06-30-2018, 06:30 AM
Highlanders 400ms dodge in OF was not touched because they consider his "better" dodge to be apart of his offensive form. When they announced they were going to normalize all side dodges they were asked by the competitive community if highlanders offensive dodge was going to be hit with this. Pope responded a day or 2 later saying he talked to the fight team and they said no. So it wasn't over looked they left it alone on purpose.

They had stated in their last seasons recap that they were going to keep an eye on highlanders offensive dodge. So either they left it alone because they're planning on changing it in some special/different way whenever they decide to do a hero update for him again. OR they're done looking and have decided to leave it alone.

In my opinion I personally don't like anyone having the ability to dodge through everything. But I recognize that it's a big part of why his offensive form even works. So i'd rather they just nerf Balors Might's damage based on how he manages to land it. Because sure it sucks to have someone dodge through my hit. But it sucks even more to be dodge kicked into 40 damage. As for aramusha's better dodge being "apart of his kit" I would say that's debatable.

He doesn't have any kind of dodge attacks. Nor does him dodging through attacks get him into anything for his kit. it just allowed him easier access to GB's. Him dodging through things isn't a technique used by most players. It wasn't even really known until high rep Mushu's were sharing their techniques with him. His overall performance from this nerf isn't shifting him dramatically. 500ms dodge times are not healthy for the game imho. And even if this did enable Mushu to not be dumpster tier it shouldn't stay because of that. He should be reworked. If offensive form dodge wasn't so integral to HL's play then i'd be right there asking for it to be nerfed. Unfortunately it is apart of his kit. and unless they make offensive form better in some other way or making defensive form his primary form and it gets a lot better it unfortunately has to stay. But the damage he does shouldn't.

If that’s the case for Highlander then I guess it is what is.

But to say that offensive form doesn’t work without a faster dodge, I have to disagree.

In its current form in high level play, highlander doesn’t need to use defensive stance if they know how to dodge.. It would be better if he was a mix of both stances.

As for Aramusha, he is the only character that is specifically stated as having “very good dodges” under special capabilities.

His side dodge allowed for a more than just GB punish. Anything from his kit was able to be used from side dodge, you could blockade, area, feint, dodge attack(side or top), GB or just attack. It played nicely into hit kit and design as a counter attacker.

But oh well, what’s done is done.

RenegadeTX2000
07-01-2018, 02:24 AM
nerf range on unblockable kick so he can't continously loop the 50/50 on characters that aren't assassin, tone down his damage to 35 instead of 40. Make his defensive stance better in return.. it'd be awesome if either his heavies gave him quicker armor activation or if he could feint a heavy straight into offense stance... Or both O_O

Also why is highlanders defensive light only 15 dmg? that move so slow it should be doing 20dmg, and make crushing counter do 35 dmg instead of 30.

Every baylors might that lands should reset back to neutral. Not give highlander more mix up opportunities...

I can burst kill anybody in this game including assassins in less then 10 seconds. That whole weakness about fast light attacks in neutral while highlander is in defense stance is a huge lie. Try that vs an elite level highlander like me and i'll delete you off the map from light parries. or i just wait until i block the first light then retreat light after and make you whiff your immediate spam light. then i dodge your 2nd attempt at light and punish you.

There's another unique timing people don't utilize for some reason. If you feint baylors might into a delayed kick. it will catch even fast dodge attacks. The timing is weird but it can be done. I've done it to immediate dodge valkyrie attacks and shaman spin attacks.

And that baylors might feint into kick also beats out regular dodges when people expect you to just feint baylors might... I have no idea why so many people think it's all about kick into toss 24/7. Yes against heavies and characters without dodge attacks but against asssassins the baylors into kick or delay kick works instead. I don't even need Caber toss vs Peacekeeper. I can literally beat her with raw baylors and kick mix ups. a baylors into a delayed kick beats our her dodge attack as well.

Only Kensei/Shinobi don't care about that though. They just dodge for free no matter the change of mix up or delay of timing. Gotta Feint baylors straight into GB. only way lol and all you get is a trashy zone or 15 dmg lights. 15 dmg lights and offensive lights. into baylors feint into GB. That's all you get. not enough reward. Fights take too long.

EDIT:::

If they start rolling away or timing their roll with your unblockables on reaction that's where the baylors might/kick mix up is so amazing. with the change of universal back dodge change you can easily catch their back dodge. if they start rolling after baylors, then cancel into celtic curse spin attack asap and you'll always catch their dodge. it's a completely different 50/50 geared towards catching roll dodge spam to avoid the original kick/toss mix up