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jugent
05-04-2005, 03:23 PM
Can anybody explain or better post a trackfile of how the scissors-manouvre shall be done on the FW-190. I have try to do it and been shoot down, I have shoot down more than one Fw trying to do what I think is the scissors-manouvre

jugent
05-04-2005, 03:23 PM
Can anybody explain or better post a trackfile of how the scissors-manouvre shall be done on the FW-190. I have try to do it and been shoot down, I have shoot down more than one Fw trying to do what I think is the scissors-manouvre

ComradeBadinov
05-04-2005, 05:32 PM
Buy Lock On... go to the Top Gun training section, it will show and teach you how to do Scissors, Yo Yo's, Once Circle, Two circle fight maneuvers,and a few more I can't remember right off hand. Learned more in two hours watching and then flying those training videos... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

ColoradoBBQ
05-04-2005, 05:41 PM
Best way to describe the scissor fight from a pilot's objective is both planes can see each other by looking up and are turning and rolling constantly to get that bandit across the gunsight. Outside, their flight paths look like a helix. The scissors is a bad position to be in because the only way to win is to turn and roll better than the other plane while preventing yourself from stalling ou.

knightflyte
05-04-2005, 07:34 PM
Hmmmmmmmmm.. Lockon's $19.99. Might be a good $20.00 investment now.

PF_Coastie
05-04-2005, 08:48 PM
Go to Darts Page (http://www.darts-page.com/) and look for the movie "when to say when". This is an excellent example of a very good scissors battle low and slow. Not to mention it is very entertaining.

Also look at his How TO videos which are very good.

jugent
05-05-2005, 12:36 AM
Thanks for all answers.

The "lock on" is the description of the Scissors that I try to copy, but the FW got so high stall-speed and so bad turnrate so I either stall or get get outcurved in the scissors. The "lock on" tells about low-speed doesnt it?
So I tried to use the high rollrate of the FW, but it looses soo much speed so I must do it diving and I have found out that its better do dive away, if you dont have a P-47 or a Mustang in your tail.

dieg777
05-05-2005, 02:09 AM
From what I have seen posted and in my attempts to fly this plane-
The fw190 is a plane that is not suited to the scissors as its corner speed is high due to wing loading. In other words its best turn rate is at high speed and the scissors is a low speed manouver.
You typically enter the scissors when you overshoot and then reverse to try for the shot, however all you are doing is burning energy and the odds are against you winning due to your speed and plane. Dont go there, use your speed and go high and use the vertical to maintain position behind the bandit.- bnz -dont turn more than 90 degrees in horizontal in this plane.
If in a defensive situation then split s using fast roll rate to advantage

for more info check here

http://www.airwarfare.com/guides.htm

there is a section on fw tactics

and here

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/Tailspin/index.htm

especially here

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_054a.html


hope this helps and good luck

mynameisroland
05-05-2005, 10:25 AM
what apart from split S would you reccommend ? I have been successful scissoring in the past . Whereas a Split S only works if you have enough altitude as most planes can follow this. Or if you succeed in shaking it you will black out.

Ive read all those links , I still dont really know what the best thing for an Fw 190 with a Mustang on its 6 should do?

OldMan____
05-05-2005, 10:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
what apart from split S would you reccommend ? I have been successful scissoring in the past . Whereas a Split S only works if you have enough altitude as most planes can follow this. Or if you succeed in shaking it you will black out.

Ive read all those links , I still dont really know what the best thing for an Fw 190 with a Mustang on its 6 should do? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The mustang is only tthing against wich a 190 does not have a trick on sleeve. But A few things can be done to improve your chances. P51 pilots usually are traumatized about extremely fast dives (&gt;700 kph) and sometimes they may not follow you. Remember to use rudder in turn... more than the required to coordinate the turn.. so you delay your stall .

Also both planes have such high maneuverability at high speed they black out easily.. so you can ride a turn to black out limit, so the 51 start loosing view too.., then you roll and change direction.


Also as last resource you can bleed speed much faster than a P51. But that will only help if you have buddies close by.

BuzzU
05-05-2005, 10:48 AM
You should know what it is if you fight the AI. That's all they do. No matter what their flying.

geetarman
05-05-2005, 12:09 PM
I always thought that the scissors (non-rolling) involved banking and turning a bit and then reversing the bank and turn in the other direction. You wind up decreasing your forward progress as a result of your lateral moves.

Better rolling planes can tranisition the turns faster and may cause the pursuer to overshoot.

Even in a 190 in can back fire. Many 190's I've met OL go into this manuever. If you are behind, just try to stay in his rear quadrant and pepper him as he is moving across your gunsight.

TgD Thunderbolt56
05-05-2005, 12:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by geetarman:
Better rolling planes can tranisition the turns faster and may cause the pursuer to overshoot.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is exactly the primary purpose of a "scissor" maneuver and works quite well against other planes that have a slower roll-rate. The use of rudder as well as skilled manipulation of your throttle can usually cause an enemy to overshoot.

Instead of wiping your brow and thinking you've made it though, the best thing is to take that one snap shot at your attacker as they try to climb away and preserve their "E". One strike can often be enough to let him know you're not the "one" he was looking for and cause him to head to greener pastures.


TB

jugent
05-05-2005, 01:06 PM
There is a line about using rudder while turning
"Remember to use rudder in turn... more than the required to coordinate the turn.. so you delay your stall"
I have tried to use my rudder in turning but didnt get any improvements at any plane.
Earlier, in IL-2 the inclinometer reacted more to roll-manouvres.
How is the coordination of rudder in a turn done?
And the propeller settings at climb, I usually set mine to automatic. The Me can run in somewhat higher rpm. Especially the E climbs better with this.
Some players change prop-pitch while curving.
I havnt found out that the propeller-pitch changes does any difference in drag.

The FW in this game is not a "butcher bird"

FI-Aflak
05-05-2005, 02:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jugent:
There is a line about using rudder while turning
"Remember to use rudder in turn... more than the required to coordinate the turn.. so you delay your stall"
I have tried to use my rudder in turning but didnt get any improvements at any plane.
Earlier, in IL-2 the inclinometer reacted more to roll-manouvres.
How is the coordination of rudder in a turn done?
And the propeller settings at climb, I usually set mine to automatic. The Me can run in somewhat higher rpm. Especially the E climbs better with this.
Some players change prop-pitch while curving.
I havnt found out that the propeller-pitch changes does any difference in drag.

The FW in this game is not a "butcher bird" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats where you are mistaken.

You are not a "pilot"

The FW-190 is one of the very top planes in the game with any pilot worth his own weight.

I hate it when people don't know a **** thing about flying and start whining about how bad their airplane is.

keep flying. at some point you'll figure it out and realize the amazing potential you have in the 190. My tips for now, until you get more experience: Stay high. never enter a fight unless you have altitude and/or speed advantage (a good FW pilot can get past this, a novice can't). No hard maneuvers. make a fast pass, shoot, and go up, try it again. Don't try to turn with anyone until you know the plane. Use climb and speed to escape bad situations. If its worse than bad, roll like crazy. The scissors is a fairly easy manuever, roll till you're sideways, turn hard for an instant, roll till you are sideways but in the other direction, pull hard for an instant, repeat. Only a couple planes have the roll rate to stay with a FW-190 in this.

FoolTrottel
05-05-2005, 03:50 PM
From the CFS1 manual, it's an FW190 vs Spit I guess:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/fooltrottel/Scissors.jpg
Have Fun!

Lixma
05-05-2005, 04:14 PM
Other useful manouvers you may want to employ are the 'Paper' and the 'Rock'.

OldMan____
05-05-2005, 08:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jugent:
There is a line about using rudder while turning
"Remember to use rudder in turn... more than the required to coordinate the turn.. so you delay your stall"
I have tried to use my rudder in turning but didnt get any improvements at any plane.
Earlier, in IL-2 the inclinometer reacted more to roll-manouvres.
How is the coordination of rudder in a turn done?
And the propeller settings at climb, I usually set mine to automatic. The Me can run in somewhat higher rpm. Especially the E climbs better with this.
Some players change prop-pitch while curving.
I havnt found out that the propeller-pitch changes does any difference in drag.

The FW in this game is not a "butcher bird" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Although, as far as I know that is not a realistic behavior, FW190 DO delay its high G stall if you keep your nose slightly down with rudder, specially on RIGHT turns. But just remember that will be usefull only on short 90 degrees turn. This maneuver has a cost that is increased E BLEED. But in an emergency when trying to make a p51 overshoot.. that is exactly the idea.



And yes the FW190 is a Butcher bird. If it is on the offensive it is very dangerous. Flying it correclty is very eficcient.. although I not always do so since a not so correct flying is more fun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif even if I start getting killed 3 times more.

dieg777
05-06-2005, 04:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
what apart from split S would you reccommend ? I have been successful scissoring in the past . Whereas a Split S only works if you have enough altitude as most planes can follow this. Or if you succeed in shaking it you will black out.

Ive read all those links , I still dont really know what the best thing for an Fw 190 with a Mustang on its 6 should do? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

try here

http://www.furball.warbirdsiii.com/krod/worr-guns-defense.html

especially this

Go nose up and to your left... like you are starting a yo-yo, then you smash on the left rudder and roll left as well. Some call it a wing over... but that is really a bit more finesse. Bogie pulls hard up to greet your yo-yo but sees you flick over and down. You sucker him in and he is bleeding E bad... keep the rudder on and you end up on the same path as before. There are other ways to bleed his E ... even a simple break turn may sucker him in.

and

http://www.musketeers.org/Gunsdefense.htm

good luck

Hrdina
05-06-2005, 06:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lixma:
Other useful manouvers you may want to employ are the 'Paper' and the 'Rock'. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Every time I try to use 'Paper' against 'Scissors' I lose. 'Rock' rules! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

LStarosta
05-06-2005, 06:53 PM
The scissors is an essential maneuver for any Fw190 pilot... Especially vertical scissors... It is guaranteed that if employed correctly, you can get ANY aircraft off your six o clock provided that they follow you into the maneuver. If they do not follow you into the maneuver, don't fret. At least he is off your 6. But now he has a huge energy advantage over you...

Atomic_Marten
05-06-2005, 07:45 PM
It seems to me that the only succesfull thing (that is also succesfull to certain degree, IMO if flown perfectly, you can not escape him) you can perform against well flown P51 is 'rock' tactic.

Or to express myself better, dive like a rock http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif; total vertical dive.(I believe that I'm correct when I called this a rock tactic -- however I may be wrong, English ain't my native language).

Watch your speed. You can go on 800kph and over, but no need for that -- make sure that you are on 700kph or a little more, and pull hard up. You will black out instantly but if P51 follows he will too and not only that - with a little luck he can say goodbye to his wing(s).

Other than that there is NO other good evasive tactic vs. P51 that will shake him off your six (someone please correct me if I'm wrong here).

P51 is simply the best WW2 airplane at altitude (out of props). That is of course IMO. It is so manouverable (in game) that no other plane comes nowhere near, so any attempt of 'classic' evasive manouvers will fail, as P51 is capable to follow them all.(and his .50s allow him to spray you a lot while in pursuit, he has fair ammount of ammo).

The only real and succesfull tactic (works 90% of the times) is this tactic. Against any opponent. Just do not turn.(that is the rule No.1 while in FW190, with one exception and that is vertical turn or loop with energy used to max.). Turn if you really must to, but you will see that every other plane will gain on you fast, because FW190 lose energy fast in turn. You can usually afford one turn; nothing more -- maybe you catch up some overconfident flyer. (FW190 turns well on high speed).
You can outrun every Spit in game with D9, if the Spit do not have significant energy advantage over you.(and with A9 as well).

About FW190 not being "Butcher bird" and being bad plane to fly, that in my experience is not true. Quite the opposite. My honest opinion is that the FW190 is among top planes of this game. Take only two FW190s and they can literally make miracles. Once when in dive on target FW190s are unstoppable. And must mention, it is a great joy to fly FW190.

If you are regular axis flyer, you can also count on higher survivability compared to Bf109.

Too bad that the search function do not work, because I remember few threads with this theme. Some of them were quite good, with pics and stuff).

TX-Gunslinger
05-06-2005, 09:23 PM
The horizontal scissors is absolutely a manuever that all FW-190 pilots should attempt to master.

Knowing that is one thing, perfecting it's execution is another. The essential element missing so far in this thread is that you must be able to SEE the bandit behind you when reversing, particularly in the early stages of the manuever. Later on, as the manuever is progressively more successfull and the relative position of the A/C goes from your six to your 3 or 9, you don't have to work as hard to see the bandit.

If you can't see the bandit "bite" , by rolling (his slower rolling a/c) into the scissors, then all your doing is weaving back and forth, slowing down your A/C and making his solution easier.

Sounds easy and simple when talking about it, but it's not simple at all in the heat of battle. Keeping track of the bandit, even with TrackIR in the early stages of the manuever, is really really hard (for me anyway).

So, what do I recommend?

1) Never start to scissor until you can see the bandit. By that I mean, don't go into the second reverse after a break turn.

2) Practice, practice, practice (note to self as my scissors suck lately). Particularly practice the reaquisition of the bandit after the first and second reversals.

I'm having trouble with this right now, mostly because I've developed some bad habits over the last several months, that I have to unlearn.

Good Luck,

S~

geetarman
05-07-2005, 07:03 AM
As a dedicated 51 pilot, I can tell you that many times the 190 pilots do not execute the scissors well. If you are disciplined, you can avoid following the 190 in the manu. and he becomes a moving target only.

On the other hand, some times a 190 guy gets it right, usually with some other ingredient(like a fortuitous throttle chop at the right moment, and your 51 goes flying out in front. I hate that the most! You feel very vulnerable!!

OldMan____
05-07-2005, 08:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by geetarman:
As a dedicated 51 pilot, I can tell you that many times the 190 pilots do not execute the scissors well. If you are disciplined, you can avoid following the 190 in the manu. and he becomes a moving target only.

On the other hand, some times a 190 guy gets it right, usually with some other ingredient(like a fortuitous throttle chop at the right moment, and your 51 goes flying out in front. I hate that the most! You feel very vulnerable!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

exactly... FW190 can bleed E much faster than P51 and in last chance situations... that may save you. Also P51 wil NOT kill you with a single snapshot... so it is not that risky maneuver.

jugent
05-07-2005, 08:29 AM
Many of those writing in this thread praise the FW with themselves in the cockpit but no one tells how to do it.
Please take a trackfile of how it is supposed to be done.
By the way all tricks to stay alive in a FW demands very precise circumstances. In general the plane as in this game can´t reflect the real plane.
Some very good pilots can be succesful in this game in a FW by choosing the exact oportunity to set in the attack, to avoid this and that etc etc. Its fun for them to tell us about how good they are, but the FW wouldn have got its reputation if it wasnt a overall good plane with general good performance.

Its not easy to gain air superiority if you have to dive like a rock to evade an enemy and then climb back up. During this time the enemy can do a lot of nasty things to the bombers or on the ground.

Its like playing chess a good player can be succesfull against a counterpart altough the counterpart starts with two queens but if two equal good players meet, its likly that the twoqueen player wins.
I think that the german average pilot wasnt so much better than the allied average one.

OldMan____
05-07-2005, 10:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jugent:
Many of those writing in this thread praise the FW with themselves in the cockpit but no one tells how to do it.
Please take a trackfile of how it is supposed to be done.
By the way all tricks to stay alive in a FW demands very precise circumstances. In general the plane as in this game can´t reflect the real plane.
Some very good pilots can be succesful in this game in a FW by choosing the exact oportunity to set in the attack, to avoid this and that etc etc. Its fun for them to tell us about how good they are, but the FW wouldn have got its reputation if it wasnt a overall good plane with general good performance.

Its not easy to gain air superiority if you have to dive like a rock to evade an enemy and then climb back up. During this time the enemy can do a lot of nasty things to the bombers or on the ground.

Its like playing chess a good player can be succesfull against a counterpart altough the counterpart starts with two queens but if two equal good players meet, its likly that the twoqueen player wins.
I think that the german average pilot wasnt so much better than the allied average one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You must keep in mind.. FW190 is not a knife fight plane... as was never taold it was in RL. It was a good fighter.. but not knife fight one. I would say it is more a hallbeard fight, or Morningstar fight plane.

geetarman
05-07-2005, 02:25 PM
US pilots seemed to have respected both German fighters, but particularly the 190. Probably because it's most similar to their planes.

The 190 honchos on WC's are,hands down, the most disciplined pilots on the server. Guys that take a 190 for an occaisional joy-ride, usually end up as smoking heaps. I've seen some of the 190 Experten sail past three or four red planes that did not know the 190 was there, because he was not in proper position for an attack or didn't like the odds. That takes effort.

The successful Luft 190 aces in WWII were likewise disciplined.

jugent
05-07-2005, 02:59 PM
Its so hard to adapt all trick and tips because most dogfights occur on below 500m altitude, then its hard to dive out.
And if its on higher alt, its so hard to tell fo from friend.
You dive down and find out that your target is a friend.
If you dont fly a iron you can curve.
If Jonnie Jonsson was right, the FW wasnt a bad turner. In his book about the Dieppe raid, he got a FW on his tail by a flier Mattoni.
He tried the usual curving trick but the Fw didnt gave up.
Jonnie have to dive down to get AAA-protection from a destroyer.
I still dont think that the ButcherBird would get such a reputation if this game depicts it correct.

geetarman
05-07-2005, 04:25 PM
What you're feeling probably comes from the fact that most servers feature T&B fests (horizontal or vertical) at 2,000'.

The 190 is not very good at those engagements (neither is my fave - the P-51). Unfortunately, if you want to take a poke at someone, you have to dive down there and mix it up. The Spit and 109, Russian and Japanese planes do alot better down there.

I like to fight the 190's (when I can find them) at 10,000 - 20,000'. They're are tough opponents and the plane does real well (esp. D9's) at the energy fight. Their firepower is withering too.

Try to stay high and fly on WC. I will guarantee you you'll find a 51 or 47 up at 15k + that you can play with.

JamesBlonde888
05-08-2005, 07:27 AM
Personally I find the scissors to be a useless manouevre. All it does is bring your pursuer closer and unless he is a nose picking cretin then he should be able to follow and wax you tail most of the time. If you are flying the 190 a steep climbing turn is a very good option. I read in Heinz Knocke's book that he used this trick and no e/a were able to follow it.

geetarman
05-08-2005, 08:56 AM
Except a P-38 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JamesBlonde888
05-08-2005, 08:59 AM
No they all went home, blowers malfunctioned...

lol

TX-Gunslinger
05-09-2005, 12:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
It seems to me that the only succesfull thing (that is also succesfull to certain degree, IMO if flown perfectly, you can not escape him) you can perform against well flown P51 is 'rock' tactic.

Or to express myself better, dive like a rock http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif; total vertical dive.(I believe that I'm correct when I called this a rock tactic -- however I may be wrong, English ain't my native language).

Watch your speed. You can go on 800kph and over, but no need for that -- make sure that you are on 700kph or a little more, and pull hard up. You will black out instantly but if P51 follows he will too and not only that - with a little luck he can say goodbye to his wing(s).

Other than that there is NO other good evasive tactic vs. P51 that will shake him off your six (someone please correct me if I'm wrong here).
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


OldMan and Atomic_Marten.........


I stand corrected. Spent all weekend trying to horizontal scissor in A5/A6/A8/A9 like I used too. I agree it does'nt work, against P-51 or SpitIX HF on your six. I'll try Dora this week.

Atomic_Marten's "Rock Tactic" does however, work ok. The only problem is that you give altitude that can't easily be recovered. This of course, is preferable to dying, and is the only thing you can do in many circumstances. We used to tell folks that a 'Split S' was the manuever of last resort. That is not true at this time. If you wait too long, you won't get a chance against any P51 or SpitIX pilot worth his salt.

I've always used a steep climbing turn as mentioned by JamesBlonde888, as long as I have enough 'E'. However, the 'E' bank is not quite the investment for an FW pilot that it used to be. Small joke there, my humor has had to improve lately http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

By the way, you can make it to 840 kph in an A9/A8 (just have'nt tried it in the other A marks) and 880 or so in a Dora IF your'e very, very carefull and light on the pullup, and you're angle is not overly steep.

I still recommend learning the scissors manuever, however as, the "Great Blue Hope", er.. patch 4.0 will be out soon (this I believe). Horizontal scissors still work, if you are pursuing a bandit which starts to scissor, or you are trying to avoid and overshoot when you are on a P-51 or SpitIX's six. The exception is a CW Spit as they roll almost as well as an FW.

S~

JamesBlonde888
05-09-2005, 03:39 AM
Wouldn't be trying the dive tactics against a P-38 or a Jug though. I have read a few times that a power dive got 190 pilots out of trouble. Not a good idea in a 109 unless you don't mind having no wings. I tried it in one and it requires a very delicate touch on the pull out. If you are being attacked from above in the 190 and short on E then a flat skidding turn followed by a split-S for the deck might just save your bacon.

strelnik_Sipi
05-09-2005, 04:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you are flying the 190 a steep climbing turn is a very good option. I read in Heinz Knocke's book that he used this trick and no e/a were able to follow it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I presume you mean 109. Climb turn is not a good idea in 190 and Knocke flew 109. Scissors is a goot move in 109 especialy vs Spits but you need a wingman in case something goes wrong http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pirschjaeger
05-09-2005, 05:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PF_Coastie:
Go to Darts Page (http://www.darts-page.com/) and look for the movie "when to say when". This is an excellent example of a very good scissors battle low and slow. Not to mention it is very entertaining.

Also look at his How TO videos which are very good. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha ha ha, I watched the "when to say when" clip. It was pretty funny and looked more like a mating dance. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

To be honest, I avoid that situation. I'm just no good scissoring.

Fritz Franzen

geetarman
05-09-2005, 09:06 AM
Re: the "rock" move of a 190 vs. a P-51:

The flat-out dive and pull up by a 190 with a 51 in hot pursuit can work. I'm sure we've all seem it many times. The Mustang jock faces two problems:

1. Blackout;
2. Wing loss.

Neither are very good for him http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As far as wing loss, I've actually re-set the input settings on the P-51 to the default values. This makes for a much smoother, although less lively, stick. It also goes a long way to preventing wing loss.

Blackout is more of a problem. You really need to watch it as the 190 hauls the stick back! I usually ease-up a bit and drop my throttle, gingerly pulling into the zoom. The 190 has gotten away from me. It's then up the skill of the 190 pilot. Does he capitalize on the disengagement or does he do something dumb and allow the 51 to zoom to it's level and resume the fight.

TX-Gunslinger
05-09-2005, 10:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by strelnik_Sipi:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you are flying the 190 a steep climbing turn is a very good option. I read in Heinz Knocke's book that he used this trick and no e/a were able to follow it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I presume you mean 109. Climb turn is not a good idea in 190 and Knocke flew 109. Scissors is a goot move in 109 especialy vs Spits but you need a wingman in case something goes wrong http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Should have been more specific. I meant climbing turn after a short or long dive, not from level. Need 650 kmh plus.

TX-Gunslinger
05-09-2005, 10:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JamesBlonde888:
Wouldn't be trying the dive tactics against a P-38 or a Jug though. I have read a few times that a power dive got 190 pilots out of trouble. Not a good idea in a 109 unless you don't mind having no wings. I tried it in one and it requires a very delicate touch on the pull out. If you are being attacked from above in the 190 and short on E then a flat skidding turn followed by a split-S for the deck might just save your bacon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Flat skidding turns were used in by many real life planes in WWII. Can't really do that in the sim.