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akumadarkhadou
08-10-2009, 11:35 PM
For some reason I have a terrible time holding my plane steady while I am firing... Yes, I use a joystick, a Logitech Attack 3, but I can't seem to hold still. Is this normal, or is there a way to keep one's plane steady?

akumadarkhadou
08-10-2009, 11:35 PM
For some reason I have a terrible time holding my plane steady while I am firing... Yes, I use a joystick, a Logitech Attack 3, but I can't seem to hold still. Is this normal, or is there a way to keep one's plane steady?

JtD
08-10-2009, 11:38 PM
There is a way to hold it steady. Training. Really nothing else will help you, I think.

Whenever I get back to playing after a break of some time, I'll have my plane do all possible stuff when I press the trigger, just not fly straight. It gets better after some time.

And welcome to the forum!

akumadarkhadou
08-10-2009, 11:43 PM
Why, thank you for the warm welcomehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Yeah, I kind of figured that there was no real trick to holding your plane steady other than to practice... I am practicing right now--being new--and am having a hard time shooting down bombers... It seems like I pour lead onto their tail--unlimited ammo--and they still stay airborne. Also, I don't know what kind of joystick most people prefer?

Bearcat99
08-10-2009, 11:58 PM
See the Nugget's Guide in my sig.

See the individual controls section, particularly Damian Syriuss' link and also hands on phase one.

M_Gunz
08-11-2009, 12:04 AM
==== Check this out: does the nose wobble all the time you are flying or just when you aim? =====

Trim really makes a big difference as do getting the stick sliders worked out for your hardware.

When you are trying to correct your aim, don't do it fast. Unlike reality there is frame lag in any sim, you don't
see things exactly as they happen but rather one frame later. The higher your framerate, the smoother your control
-can- be just because your visual feedback is that much closer to what your nervous system is capable of.

In flight there is a term called Pilot Induced Oscillation (PIO) that happens when pilots correct for actions as
they happen. You end up worse than doing nothing. Learn to anticipate and not over-react, a looser hand will work
out better especially with lower framerates. Sometimes the forces at work are not obvious like gyro effects and
torque but knowing they are there is the first step to seeing the patterns in what you do and what happens as result.

Still, being out of trim... when you have to hold your stick a ways off center when aiming you just don't get the
better sensitivity with the default sliders settings and the difference between one little bit of pull and the next
gets to be more and more so fine control becomes harder. Out of trim is being off-balance and needing to hold
against that. It multiplies some other effects though with practice you can pit one tendency against another.

na85
08-11-2009, 12:06 AM
You could try adjusting the response curves on your stick to give less deflection when close to the center of the X and Y (pitch/roll) axes.

Have a look at il2 joycontrol or one of the other joystick tuning utilities.

Bearcat99
08-11-2009, 12:07 AM
Yeah... what they said too........ http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

akumadarkhadou
08-11-2009, 12:15 AM
Wow! so many replies already! I will start reading your guide right away, Bearcat. And thank you for the explanation, gunz.

M_Gunz
08-11-2009, 12:15 AM
Sorry BC, your 1st post wasn't up when I typed that.

Freiwillige
08-11-2009, 12:29 AM
Everybody new to IL2 tends to overeact and throw the stick around while trying to aim. The trick is slow careful gentle movements. I set all my stick sliders to 100% so i know if i over correct its me and I need to calm down.

akumadarkhadou
08-11-2009, 12:41 AM
The Damian Syriuss link is... wow... I will have to read that when I am, at least, partially awake. Flight sim enthusiasts don't screw around; in a way, it's kind of scaryhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif))

Edit: A good kind of scary, of course!

BillSwagger
08-11-2009, 01:10 AM
i use the same stick and there are three factors that will help steady a shot:

1.
You've already read about Il2Joy. get it and use it.
Logitechs are known for being too sensitive, so you have to find what works for you. I use a linear curve from 1 to 100, 0 dead zone, 5 filtering (X axis)


2. Trims, especially elevator trim.
Sliders offer more control, but you can use button presses to fine tune your movements.
I found it useful to use a mouse for panning, so many trim functions are mapped to the mousewheel using a mouse mapper program.
This allows me to rudder, trim, and throttle with my mousewheel.

http://www.highrez.co.uk/downl...useButtonControl.htm (http://www.highrez.co.uk/downloads/XMouseButtonControl.htm)

3.
Airspeed.
This is probably the biggest factor, because when you are slower it requires more control input to keep your nose steady.
No one can hold their joystick perfectly still, and for that reason you get some wobbles, especially in more sensitive sticks like a Logitech.
This is where trim can be effective, but having more airspeed can make the difference.
You might use "combat" flaps too.

na85
08-11-2009, 01:14 AM
Another thing that hasn't really been touched on is the tactics you use.

The closer you are, the bigger the target appears in your reticle and the less precise you have to be in your gunnery. I like to get in REAL close, and open up with all guns for a knockout punch. How far out are you shooting from?

akumadarkhadou
08-11-2009, 01:33 AM
I start shooting from .50 and try and get closer.. Might be a little too far? Also, I watched the training videos and one was of a bf109 shooting down a few bombers. In the training video, the bf109 shoots the crew of the bomber--I think.

It's good to know someone is using the same stick as I. I'll definitely try out your suggested fine-tune options.

na85
08-11-2009, 01:42 AM
WAY too far, especially for cannon-armed aircraft such as the Bf109.

Try setting your convergence to 150 meters and opening fire at that range (0.15 on the range indicator) and see if you have better results.

akumadarkhadou
08-11-2009, 01:44 AM
na, will do. I'll let you know how it works.
BillSwagger, I downloaded the mouse program that you recommended; how do you set it to work with il-2?

na85
08-11-2009, 01:49 AM
Best of luck mate

akumadarkhadou
08-11-2009, 01:52 AM
BillSwagger, one other thing: I changed my settings in Il-2Joy, and so far the results are far, far better! Can you post your settings for x, y, and your throttle also? I wouldn't bother you so, but just changing one of my settings according to your post has made a huge difference, and for that I give my thankshttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

akumadarkhadou
08-11-2009, 02:04 AM
na85, your suggestion has rendered my aim marvelous; thank youhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The time has finally come to kick some ***. I just love watching smoke burst from the damaged engine; it just gives me that excited feeling, you know? Okay, I'll stop my ramble...

BillSwagger
08-11-2009, 02:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by akumadarkhadou:
na, will do. I'll let you know how it works.
BillSwagger, I downloaded the mouse program that you recommended; how do you set it to work with il-2? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

once its installed, click 'add', and then browse the il2 folder for the il2.exe file.
Then you should see Il2 under the programs list. So select it/.
I would start with the mouse wheel button assignments.

So under 'Mouse wheel up' scroll to you see 'simulated keystrokes'.
then pick a key.
you will repeat this for 'mouse wheel down'.
these two keys will be assigned in il2.

The rest should be self explanatory, and works just as any other key mapper does, only this configures your mouse buttons.

In the game, I mapped the two mouse wheel keys to rudder right and rudder left. The mousewheel button is rudder neutral.

You can then combo other functions to your mouse wheel.
so

joystick button 2 + (the key you chose for mouse wheel up) = increase throttle
joystick button 2 + (the key you chose for mouse wheel down) = decrease throttle
you can do the same for prop pitch, trim, and so on......with different keys or mouse buttons.
You will need to play the game for some time to find what is more comfortable for you.

I'd say it took me two weeks just to get everything where i wanted it, and i still switch or add things as i need them.

(you will want a joystick profiler from logitech..visit logitech.com)


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">BillSwagger, one other thing: I changed my settings in Il-2Joy, and so far the results are far, far better! Can you post your settings for x, y, and your throttle also? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To make it easy, i set the first column to 1 and the last column to 100, and click 'linear' on both X,Y.
on X i use 0 dead zone, 5 filtering, Y i use no dead zone or filtering.

My Z axis is mapped to rudder in the HOTAS section of the game.

I have it set from 10 in the first column to 80 in the last column, and use a linear curve, again. no filters
I dont use this lever much, only for fine tuning movements with the rudder with distance shots, or as a trim rudder function.


i don't mind helping, but you will need to play with these programs and settings to get more familiar with them. There are more in depth instructions at the websites where you downloaded them.

SeaFireLIV
08-11-2009, 05:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by akumadarkhadou:
For some reason I have a terrible time holding my plane steady while I am firing... Yes, I use a joystick, a Logitech Attack 3, but I can't seem to hold still. Is this normal, or is there a way to keep one's plane steady? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Keep calm.

Zeus-cat
08-11-2009, 06:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">For some reason I have a terrible time holding my plane steady while I am firing... Yes, I use a joystick, a Logitech Attack 3, but I can't seem to hold still. Is this normal, or is there a way to keep one's plane steady? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't feel bad, I have been playing this sim for 8 years and I still have this problem.

na85
08-11-2009, 07:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by akumadarkhadou:
na85, your suggestion has rendered my aim marvelous; thank youhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The time has finally come to kick some ***. I just love watching smoke burst from the damaged engine; it just gives me that excited feeling, you know? Okay, I'll stop my ramble... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Awesome, glad to hear you've found success.

And I totally agree with you. It's extremely satisfying to putt the trigger and see the hits land squarely on the engine http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

SILVERFISH1992
08-11-2009, 07:37 AM
Hey there, akumadarkhadou, Practice makes perfect...Just keep practicing and you will be as good as us in notime... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif


I wish you luck... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

akumadarkhadou
08-11-2009, 12:40 PM
Thank you all very muchhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I'm beginning to get a hold of the controls, and the game, more and more.

Blindman-
08-11-2009, 01:21 PM
I know that you have resolved at least most of your troubles with some of the advice given above but I feel compelled to add to this. I had and still have the same trouble and it comes mostly from using rudder without realizing it (a problem stemming from using a joy stick with a twist function for rudder control). Also, much of my troubles went away when I started using elevator trim and finally quit having to push my nose down.

akumadarkhadou
08-11-2009, 02:03 PM
Yes that's true; I finally learned how to use trim correctly, and I learned to be gentle with the flight stick.

na85
08-11-2009, 02:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blindman-:
I know that you have resolved at least most of your troubles with some of the advice given above but I feel compelled to add to this. I had and still have the same trouble and it comes mostly from using rudder without realizing it (a problem stemming from using a joy stick with a twist function for rudder control). Also, much of my troubles went away when I started using elevator trim and finally quit having to push my nose down. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, people don't realize it but having a decent set of pedals makes an enormous difference.

Xiolablu3
08-11-2009, 02:32 PM
The Bf109 is a nice plane to aim with as its docile hanlding is nice. This is actually where having the controls get stiff early is an advantage. At around 300-450kph the Bf109, Zero and P38 are beautiful to aim whereas other planes with more effective elevators are really twitchy. The mild stiffness at these speeds actually helps them be less twitchy.


The Spitfire was well known for having very twitchy elevators, In game so do the Fw190 and P51, not sure about these in real life.


Maybe try the Bf109 or Zero to start and then move onto the Spit when you feel more confident to master the more twitchy planes.

There rae some joystick settings ingame which may help with the problem.

SILVERFISH1992
08-11-2009, 02:37 PM
Try the SBD-5, its very stable and can take about as much damage as an IL-2. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Mr_Zooly
08-11-2009, 03:27 PM
Hurricane is a stable gun platform but not the IIC cannon armed version.

hirosangels
08-14-2009, 12:21 PM
Yeah practice really helps me.


I played MiG Alley before, and Blazing Angels 2 and thought of myself of good simmer.

IL-2 humbled me real quick.

I played with IL-2 joycontrol (key to configuring) to find sensitivity for me.

And learning how to trim.

40's gentle curve to 100 worked for me.

And when you handle the joystick, do it smooth and soft. Silky like sunshine, easy like the ocean pulling back after the wave has broken on the shore.

Like you're massaging / caressing your gf or for the ladies bf (109) 's face. Smooth and calm.

Like watching that painter Bob Ross (awesome guy, pour some drink out on the floor for him) talk while painting. Its all easy going.



This was before below:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by na85:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blindman-:
I know that you have resolved at least most of your troubles with some of the advice given above but I feel compelled to add to this. I had and still have the same trouble and it comes mostly from using rudder without realizing it (a problem stemming from using a joy stick with a twist function for rudder control). Also, much of my troubles went away when I started using elevator trim and finally quit having to push my nose down. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, people don't realize it but having a decent set of pedals makes an enormous difference. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


yeah so true.

A few days ago I can't hit jack in the sky or when I walk the dog (strafe) the dog curves around the target, but hits the next vehicle in the column . . . Rockets no dice. Even bombing with the SSSBD (super stable SBD), hit or miss.

ntrks show I'm skidding / sliding and da plane, da plane's nose is doing this wonky wobble, like a wagging dog's tail.

Turns out the hardware config, input and joystick sensitivity screen has the green /red square for yaw / Z axis / twist go to the ends when I move the stick up or down.

When I push with my index on the base of the stick to pull it back (no twist at all) just the pulling movement 1 mm jerks the Z axis / twist green square all the way to the left, sometimes right. Even if I put the Z senstivity to all 1's or 10's, the Z shenanigans still happens ...

its like Night Rider's Kitt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MlTKvQn1Sk#t=0m06s

with Z axis / twist sliding all over the place.

Other signs point to joystick dying . . .

Good thing I got CH hotas and pedals on order

Nooble_savage
08-14-2009, 05:38 PM
If you're new to the game, then no wonder why your aim is crap. Smile and be happy that you finally found a game that is actually a challenge and where hard work and experience actually pays off. That's rare.

However, one thing that can really throw off your aim that has absolutely nothing to do with skill or real-life air combat, is if your joystick has a big deadzone. I.e. very small movements around the stick's neutral position won't give any input to the game, so nothing happens at first. Only when you start making slightly bigger (although still small) movements will the game suddenly get a signal from the stick.

Maybe your stick is fine, I'm not familiar with the model. But if it has a big deadzone, then you will have to work harder than some others to fine tune your aim every time. It gets harder to predict how your stick will affect the game and hence you become a player who jerk the stick a bit too much all the time. Modifying the stick's sensitivity curves can help a bit though.

Woke_Up_Dead
08-14-2009, 06:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blindman-:
Also, much of my troubles went away when I started using elevator trim and finally quit having to push my nose down. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you set your elevator trim to neutral, or a little nose-down so that you have to pull on the stick while aiming?

AndyJWest
08-14-2009, 06:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blindman-:
Also, much of my troubles went away when I started using elevator trim and finally quit having to push my nose down. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you set your elevator trim to neutral, or a little nose-down so that you have to pull on the stick while aiming? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This makes me wonder- lately I've got into the habit of trimming slightly nose-down in combat, without really thinking why I do it. If Woke_Up_Dead does the same thing then maybe there is a good reason to do it, and it's not just one of my many quirks. Does anyone have an explanation as to why it helps?

Blindman-
08-14-2009, 07:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blindman-:
Also, much of my troubles went away when I started using elevator trim and finally quit having to push my nose down. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you set your elevator trim to neutral, or a little nose-down so that you have to pull on the stick while aiming? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I have time I will set it to neutral so that the nose neither lifts or falls on it's own. I have to admit that most of the time I make a guess as to how much is enough to reduce the amount I have to push down to a negligible amount.

K_Freddie
08-15-2009, 07:07 AM
Most times it's not necessary to aim for one spot (called sniping) but just to cover an area where the other a/c will be. A lot of times a simple few hits on the wingtips is enough to put an a/c into a spin sending it crashing into the ground.

You rarely need a steady hand, although it does help, and if you do have the 'shakes' real bad, place one of these next to your screen... helps with the nerves.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:L9vMYlMGmFQp6M:http://www.austrianbeer.co.uk/images/kaiserbeerfasstypbottle.jpg

Sillius_Sodus
08-15-2009, 12:33 PM
When I first started playing this sim I could not hit anything either. What helped me is slowing the game speed to 1/2 when I got close enough to fire. This gave me the time to get an idea of how much correction I needed.

squareusr
08-15-2009, 12:46 PM
And the last secret ingredient for a steady aim: don't use the trigger on the stick to fire, use some buttons elsewhere that you can operate with the other hand.

Manu-6S
08-15-2009, 02:19 PM
A question for the OP:

At which distance are you used to shoot?

BillSwagger
08-15-2009, 08:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by squareusr:
And the last secret ingredient for a steady aim: don't use the trigger on the stick to fire, use some buttons elsewhere that you can operate with the other hand. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ive heard this before but with a logitech attack 3 i dont think its necessary because it has a shallow trigger pull. The base of the trigger pivots about an eighth of an inch, and where my finger pulls, its a much less than that. You'd have to be really jittery or have an annoyingly sticky button for it to interfere with your aim. All joysticks are different in this way, so it is something to keep in mind.

It seems like the basics are covered. trim elevator...airspeed..and Il2joy settings.

akumadarkhadou
08-15-2009, 09:04 PM
I was shooting from 50 mm where the bullet convergence is set by default

Manu-6S
08-16-2009, 12:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by akumadarkhadou:
I was shooting from 50 mm where the bullet convergence is set by default </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's too much.

Try with 200/180 and shoot only when the enemy is really close.

Closing
=
More easy to hit
+
More inflicted damage

I'll say 150m for a track shot and 50m for a snap shot.

Erkki_M
08-16-2009, 01:35 AM
I'm using this trick myself:

Have the elevator trim some 1/3 back. Seriously. You will have to push it forward that 1/3 all the time, but dont worry: you'll get used to it really quick. You will have pressure on the stick: smoothier flying, no wobbling; better control over the aircraft! Also, the stick will be out of the middle area where it might have some problems(especially cheaper joysticks). Wether you use the IL2's trim or the trim in stick(the one not binded to "elev trim" in game, the one that makes the PC think you're moving the stick) doesnt really matter. Just notice that not all planes have elevator trim. I use the stick's own trim myself.

As another hint I'd tell to set the convergence really close(depending on your plane), say, 120m, and keep it there. Flying a P51, for example, a 190 at 105 meters will be the size of your gunsight, which is surprisely small(and surprisely "close"!) For guns in hull/wing roots the convergence may be far(FW's inner guns, 109, Yaks, MiGs, Zeros machine guns) because raising convergence also moves the bullets' path a little higher, making shooting inside turns a little simplier. For wing mounted guns I suggest you use something between 120-200m, presuming that you play Full Real only and prefer hit-and-run tactics. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

DKoor
08-16-2009, 02:03 AM
I concur with Erkki's conclusion... long time ago I found out that while level flying trim (negative trim in many cases) is great for flying it sucks for aiming, so basically if I don't have a pressure on my stick I have a hard time aiming. Natural trim will do the work most of the times, but sometimes it is even better to have a bit extra trim up, especially true in maneuvers.

Erkki_M
08-16-2009, 02:10 AM
I forgot to mention: have the trim positive. When its positive you get all the pros of having pressure on stick and not having it at middle area AND you never have to break your wrist in close-in knife fights: to turn, simply ease the pressure, even easing the stick back to the middle is almost always enough of turning. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BillSwagger
08-16-2009, 07:00 AM
For a while i was using PPJoy, and i made a function where you could place your Y axis, press a button and it was auto trimmed to that position. So i could pull back on the stick pulling me up then hit the trim button, then it would be trimmed to that position, and with the stick centered i could pull more stick if needed.

Then i learned the mouse wheel was better for trimming because it required less stick movement and....
I have the mouse wheel calculated as keystrokes, so a half roll can equate to 5 trim key presses, with out the delay of just holding the button, and somewhat more responsive than a slider. So i can roll my thumb over the mouse wheel a couple times and i'm already at full trim, with virtually the same response time.
So that's my little trick i use.

megalopsuche
08-16-2009, 08:01 AM
Some very good tips here, good read. I usually trim up before I enter combat, but I'm going to go a little more aggressively on that and see what results I get.

VW-IceFire
08-16-2009, 10:13 AM
I trim slightly nose down when engaging a target (I'm always trimming) because usually my speed is increasing so by the time I'm on target my trim is about where it should be for that speed. Experience helps with figuring that part out.

Holding still is a matter of finding how to be calm while shooting the guns. If its a heated dogfight my aim goes down several percentage points purely based on what my mental game is at the time.