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View Full Version : Sniper Warfare in TD2



agentCoats
06-22-2018, 09:43 AM
So..... Im sure we all remember sniper builds in TD1. Tbf they were fine but... there was no real sense of what 'real' sniper warfare could be like.

I know its difficult to capture that essence but imagine the task of locating a good sniper nest.

Camouflaging yourself so you are not spotted.... reporting back to base enemy concentrations, movements etc.

The endless waiting and observing from a high vantage point, while the world carries on going by down below, oblivious to your presence.

And then the carefully, timed, patient shots fired at unsuspecting targets.

Taking out important assets or killing small groups of enemies w.o being discovered.

Or the relocating to another position when you fail and are spotted. Maybe having some sort of camouflage mechanic for concealment.

Or dueling it out with an enemy sniper (or few) as you slowly and silently race to locate your enemy before they find you!?!

Remaining perfectly still while the enemy floods the area with enemies intent on finding you..... waiting patiently until they have passed on before relocating.

Maybe having another player act as a spotter to "locate" (ping) other enemies as you remain focused on your current target.

Even limit sniper teams to having to stay in twos and not be near each other on the map or lose camouflage bonus.

Given the wide open spaces that now make up alot of TD2 (supposedly) is there an opportunity for some actual sniper based content/missions? For a somewhat more focused sniper experience? For sniper oriented missions? And a sniper archetype(s) that has skills/talents etc to complement some sniper based mechanics in this game?


Part of me says yeah it could be done in pve and pvp...... obs dont know enough of the current game the dev team have in alpha....... but would the community want to see that?

Sharpandpointy
06-22-2018, 10:16 AM
I would. No question.

TD has some fun sniping in it, but it takes a long, long time to get good at it due to the short ranges, the automatic enemy response, and the fact that any kind of good sniper is going to end up with lousy health. Also the borked threat response, which means that while people might be shooting the enemies with LMG and AR sporting loud vent brakes, and I'm using a silenced M700, the shotgunners still run past everyone to attack me and I stick my head out of cover into a hail of bullets.

And even when one is 'gud' enough to run through missions solo or pair sniping (very fun), it's not the same feeling as in other games. It's more frantic and hurried.

So, yeah -- I'd like to have a better experience with that, myself.

Liquid_Engineer
06-22-2018, 11:49 AM
Ultimately it's not a sniper franchise. Rifles can only be used briefly before you get overrun, sadly.

Goo-Goo-Man
06-22-2018, 12:31 PM
A very good start would be to set the effective range of all Snipers to 150 meters and set the AI detection to zero, at least on the first drop.

Might have been an engine limitation that will be addressed the second time around. Cannot see another reason why it is currently implemented so woefully poorly.

I mean, the longest range confirmed kill IRL is 3540 meters......I don’t want to know what our .50cal range is gonna peak at in-game.....

agentCoats
06-22-2018, 12:53 PM
Ultimately it's not a sniper franchise. Rifles can only be used briefly before you get overrun, sadly.

Indeed. Should therefore it remove sniper rifles and specializations? Perhaps they could add some gameplay mechanics to allow for effective sniper play?



A very good start would be to set the effective range of all Snipers to 150 meters and set the AI detection to zero, at least on the first drop.

Might have been an engine limitation that will be addressed the second time around. Cannot see another reason why it is currently implemented so woefully poorly.

I mean, the longest range confirmed kill IRL is 3540 meters......I donít want to know what our .50cal range is gonna peak at in-game.....

Indeed. I could imagine certain areas of the map being marked offlimits by the ai if a sniper team stays at spot for so long. Basically every area in its range. Until the enemy starts to sweep those areas to locate the sniper. So different AI behaviour.

I would also suggest that non-sniper players cant actually do those sniper things and just a sniper rifle as an accurate slow firing rifle.

HoneyBadgr
06-22-2018, 08:47 PM
At the moment I believe that the range on any sort of shot is roughly 100m. Without speccing into optimal range, my Hunter's Faith has 84m. My main concern is that there is tons of neck/head height cover (at least in the DZ) so players don't even have to take cover in order for me to barely see them. This lets them easily cover that 80-100m distance without allowing me any shots of opportunity because all I'll see is brief flashes of them as they run between objects. If I could request something for TD2, it would be that either a) please have more raised platforms that could give snipers a better view of the area around them, or b) please have more mid-height cover and less full height cover so players aren't able to avoid snipers so easily (especially with how long sniper TTK is even on immobile players compared to other weapons).

Trippul G
06-22-2018, 10:38 PM
In my eyes, there's two main things at play here which make sniping non-viable. Number one is that effective sniper warfare more or less relies on the premise of "one shot, one kill". This rather runs counter to the relatively high TTK that we've seen in The Division, where even if you get the drop on an enemy or group of enemies, by the time you've put three headshots into one of them with your 9k Hunter's Faith build, everyone else has either scattered for cover, or they know exactly where you are, and are rapidly closing the already unrealistically small gap between you, forcing you to switch to an AR or other shorter range weapon.

Sure it's possible to get one shot kills depending on the enemy, and how you've specced your gear, and circumstances in the game, but it's not really reliable. And the fact remains that you're looking at a max effective range of roughly 200m, give or take, often less...MUCH less in fact, depending on the mission/area.

In order for sniping to be effective in TD2, we need to have some wide open areas with long draw distances and sightlines, allowing us to see the enemy at distances where it will basically amount to "if we can see him, we can snipe him". And no more of the nonsense from TD1 where you perfectly line up an enemy in your crosshairs, pull the trigger, and it's a complete whiff. I don't know if that was due to enemy locations in the player's game and on the server not being synched until they were actually "in combat", or what the root cause was. I'm hoping it was a limitation of the game engine at the time and has been fixed for the sequel, because that nonsense has GOT to go.

HoneyBadgr
06-22-2018, 10:52 PM
Agreed, what annoys me is our draw distance is well above 100m however, the shots do not register when looking through a scope which is extremely frustrating when trying to shoot a fleeing foe. My build atm is optimized to squeeze out every little drop of DPS. I'm at 10.4k FA/295k toughness. Generally I two/three tap players until I get my HF stacks up then I can 1/2 tap depending on if it crits (and I only have 33% if I'm on my mobile cover [25% off of it] ). I'm hoping the fact that players wont be able to medkit on the move, and that the turning is a bit slower will help alleviate the "charge the sniper headon" strat at currently keeps snipers from being viable in PvP.

Komrade_Zen
06-22-2018, 11:54 PM
I think the national mall would be a good set piece for sniper battles. Lots of good sight lines.

Trippul G
06-23-2018, 12:54 AM
I think the national mall would be a good set piece for sniper battles. Lots of good sight lines.

Could be. But we need a lot more than one set piece to make sniping viable. Like, the majority of missions...or at least a large percentage of them.

flrt.
06-23-2018, 01:49 AM
You only have to look back as far as 1.7 to see a patch where sniper builds were completely viable weapons without making fundamental changes to mechanics or map design.

A Skull/Barrets build with AR dmg gloves would 2 shot with an M700.

Entirely possible to snipe while giving your target some semblance of a chance.
(Slight shade at the Armor-pack change there)


As an aside and as a decent sniper I can say it would be excruciatingly boring to play and watch long term if the "Meta" shifted to a predominantly sniper heavy one.
(With the occasional Demo-spec spam)

It is best that it is occasionally powerful, in the right hands and circumstances.

Controlling engagement distance, flanks, landing shots, using corners (standing cover), timing skills & buffs, call outs, build diversity, funnels and power plays would mostly be left by the wayside for "who has the better shot or vantage point" in a 1tap sniper meta.

That doesn't tick any RPG boxes for me in PvE or PvP.

Also, getting killed by someone from a "camouflaged position" will be tantamount to "ganking".
The same people who are currently upset they ever get killed by a Rogue group who casually walked right into their extraction will cry bloody murder when they are killed @200+ metres by forces unseen.

If we're talking about a true visceral sniper experience then we'd need a prone system and the sniper spec would need to have some of the lowest movement/ready speeds, bullet drop etc. etc.

It would be terribly slow and not The Division at all.

HoneyBadgr
06-23-2018, 01:56 AM
I agree a sniper heavy meta where one-taps are consistently pulled off is extremely un-enjoyable to those on the receiving end. One thing I would appreciate is keeping your name from showing up if you're outside of combat. Just so as a sniper you could stay near a corner or cover without worrying about being seen because your name peeks around the corner while your body doesnt.