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wazooda
06-07-2005, 07:21 PM
I'm a sim jet-jock who is new to this sim and its realistic flight model.

I'm trying to figure out how and when to utilize the rudder during turning. Also... how does it effect your turn?

I messed with it a bit, but found I would often induce a spin when kicking it over turning a turning fight.

Any guidance or links on where to read up would be greatly appreciated.

Wazoo

wazooda
06-07-2005, 07:21 PM
I'm a sim jet-jock who is new to this sim and its realistic flight model.

I'm trying to figure out how and when to utilize the rudder during turning. Also... how does it effect your turn?

I messed with it a bit, but found I would often induce a spin when kicking it over turning a turning fight.

Any guidance or links on where to read up would be greatly appreciated.

Wazoo

SlagterAbe
06-07-2005, 07:32 PM
I'd say at the beginning and end of a turn, yawing out of a turn with the wings perpendicular to the ground seems like a bad idea...

More often I jam the rudder to counteract a stall. Most important aspect of the rudder for my flying - fine tuning my position while attacking, strafing, or bombing.

Fennec_P
06-07-2005, 07:32 PM
Mostly, you'd just use the rudder to stay coordinated during turns. Ie. small amounts of rudder to center the ball, that's all.

You might also use rudder during rolling (especially at the begining of a turn) to improve roll rate. Especially for planes that roll poorly.

Chuck_Older
06-07-2005, 07:36 PM
You want to "co-ordinate" your turns, using both rudder and stick at the same time

Try this:

fly around a bit, as close to straight and level as you can. Apply full left and right rudder. Notice what happens. The nose "yaws" to the side the rudder was turned

Go back to flying straight. Push the stick left and right. The plane "rolls" in the direction you push the stick

If you fly straight again, and pull back or push forward on the stick, you'll "pitch" the nose over into a dive, or up into a climb

That's your three axes of movement right there- roll, yaw, and pitch

Now- use all three to turn. A "bank turn"

Roll the aircraft to one side or the other, so that the wing on one side is pointing straight down, and the other is striaght up (90* bank). If you simply roll into that position, you will lose altitude. But you're maneuvering in 3D http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif. So now, your rudder will still yaw the nose left or right (from your persepctive), but in relation to the plane's attitude, the nose will go up towrds the sky or down towards the earth when you use the rudder. Use the rudder to keep the nose up, and you won't lose altitude in the bank turn

A related thing happens with the stick, now, too- you're in a 90* bank, your rudder is over to keep the nose up. "Tighten" the turn by pulling back on the stick. Careful, you can spin or black-out

So, with practice, you will unconsciously be applying the correct amount of rudder, at the right time as you initiate a bank turn, to produce the basic maneuver you want

Rudder can cause a "skid" or "side-slip", making the plane sorta fly crab-ways to it's actual path. This can throw off an attacker's aim, or bring your own guns to bear. In fact, good rudder control is a great asset to aerial gunnery

A good, real WWII combat tactice for defense was called "stuffing it into a corner"- stick over (forward) hard, to one side, rudder to opposite side

Varying degrees of rudder input can produce various results in various manuevers. It may be helpful to record a track of yourself trying these things out, and then review it later to observe the actual effect- it can be disorienting when you're in the cockpit- you don't know if you're doing it right or not

VW-IceFire
06-07-2005, 07:49 PM
I've also heard of that manuever being called a skid. Apparently it worked well against a number of Japanese pilots (and used by the USN) who were trained for very precise aim and were thrown off by a violent skid.

I haven't been able to get it to work nearly as well online as most people aren't precise shooters but maybe I need to push the stick forward more and use that rudder a bit more too.

jarink
06-07-2005, 11:36 PM
Skids are basically a flat (non-banked) turn. Depending on the a/c, they don't work as well, btu they are great for getting the nose pointed at an enemy for a quick shot and also for bleeding speed when on final for landing. Skid back and forth a couple times and watch the airspeed drop (more wind is hitting the side of the a/c, sloing it)while you keep on glidepath.

(Try it in the first no-cockpit view and watch the difference between your gunsight and the circle indicating true a/c direction and you'll see what I mean.) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

wazooda
06-08-2005, 12:13 AM
All good advice everyone. Thanks!

I'll mess around with it and record tracks to see the results.

I'm hoping to find a way to get a Zero off my six when flying an F4F-4....

Wazoo

F19_Orheim
06-08-2005, 03:52 AM
watch the ball, watch the ball.....

Jex_TG
06-08-2005, 03:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
You want to "co-ordinate" your turns, using both rudder and stick at the same time

Try this:

fly around a bit, as close to straight and level as you can. Apply full left and right rudder. Notice what happens. The nose "yaws" to the side the rudder was turned

Go back to flying straight. Push the stick left and right. The plane "rolls" in the direction you push the stick

If you fly straight again, and pull back or push forward on the stick, you'll "pitch" the nose over into a dive, or up into a climb

That's your three axes of movement right there- roll, yaw, and pitch

Now- use all three to turn. A "bank turn"

Roll the aircraft to one side or the other, so that the wing on one side is pointing straight down, and the other is striaght up (90* bank). If you simply roll into that position, you will lose altitude. But you're maneuvering in 3D http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif. So now, your rudder will still yaw the nose left or right (from your persepctive), but in relation to the plane's attitude, the nose will go up towrds the sky or down towards the earth when you use the rudder. Use the rudder to keep the nose up, and you won't lose altitude in the bank turn

A related thing happens with the stick, now, too- you're in a 90* bank, your rudder is over to keep the nose up. "Tighten" the turn by pulling back on the stick. Careful, you can spin or black-out

So, with practice, you will unconsciously be applying the correct amount of rudder, at the right time as you initiate a bank turn, to produce the basic maneuver you want

Rudder can cause a "skid" or "side-slip", making the plane sorta fly crab-ways to it's actual path. This can throw off an attacker's aim, or bring your own guns to bear. In fact, good rudder control is a great asset to aerial gunnery

A good, real WWII combat tactice for defense was called "stuffing it into a corner"- stick over (forward) hard, to one side, rudder to opposite side

Varying degrees of rudder input can produce various results in various manuevers. It may be helpful to record a track of yourself trying these things out, and then review it later to observe the actual effect- it can be disorienting when you're in the cockpit- you don't know if you're doing it right or not </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only one thing to really add here - when you record the track, make sure you turn on your wing-tip smoke (T by default I think). This way you'll see your flight path and how it is effected by your inputs http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Macel
06-08-2005, 07:23 PM
Rudder has more authority than ailerons at low speeds, so take advantage of that too. If you just did a zoom climb and are at the apex of the climb, if you want to get the nose pointed down faster, use rudder. That's part of what you need to do to pull a hammerhead.