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tHeNegative1
06-21-2018, 12:52 AM
Please , please , please put the current character mechanics in The Division One into The Division 2. The movement and combat in the current game looks and I am assuming feels, so much better than what I saw in the D2 demo. The demo reminded me of the mechanics in Ghost Recon Wildlands. I was so pumped for this game until I saw the running animations and the combat looked sluggish and toned down. Again, Massive please put the current combat system in D2.

Stingrayed
06-21-2018, 01:10 AM
So you love the Chicken Dance?

06-21-2018, 01:58 AM
The change to the movement and combat only really affects chicken dancing and face tanking lol.

Everything else we have seen is pretty much Division 1.

Blkandwhtknight
06-21-2018, 03:43 AM
Please , please , please put the current character mechanics in The Division One into The Division 2. The movement and combat in the current game looks and I am assuming feels, so much better than what I saw in the D2 demo. The demo reminded me of the mechanics in Ghost Recon Wildlands. I was so pumped for this game until I saw the running animations and the combat looked sluggish and toned down. Again, Massive please put the current combat system in D2.

Not happening... NEXT!

Pepsi82x
06-21-2018, 07:51 PM
no thank you OP.

gt2k
06-21-2018, 07:54 PM
I played every shooter that was worth anything and this is a horrible idea.

sgtnogo
06-21-2018, 08:03 PM
While I agree that mechanics such as this will in the short term stop face tanking and chicken dancing, I will be surprised if it will in the long term halt it. The reason comes back to TTK. People are going to close to knife fighting range, because it'll end up being the only way to defeat a players defenses.

It actually won't bother me if every chicken dancer from Division 1, passes on Division 2. But lets face it, where else are they gonna go to get their coop on? Not to ruffle anyone's feathers!:D You have strut as a rooster don't you? Okay, enough puns.

tHeNegative1
06-22-2018, 05:08 AM
I couldn't care less about the chicken dance.

Goo-Goo-Man
06-22-2018, 12:20 PM
While I agree that mechanics such as this will in the short term stop face tanking and chicken dancing, I will be surprised if it will in the long term halt it.....

The incendiary gas cloud will turn every DZ corner into a Chik-Fil-A outlet!

III_Hammer_III
06-22-2018, 05:06 PM
The running animation is really bad compared to the TD1 animation. Toons look like they are running chafed. What seems to be happening, they are using the Wildlands skeleton, because that skeleton is already rigged for customization options.

SevenNVD
06-22-2018, 06:10 PM
The running animation is really bad compared to the TD1 animation. Toons look like they are running chafed. What seems to be happening, they are using the Wildlands skeleton, because that skeleton is already rigged for customization options.


I thought so to, but apparently that's not the case.

This is what Marcostyle posted on Twitter:


People keep saying that the animations in The Division 2 look like wildlands, But I just compared the 2 in Adobe Premiere and honestly the animations are almost the same as in The Division 1. The camera is just placed slightly closer to the player in TD2, like in wildlands.

He usually is quite accurate with his analysis, but keep in mind this is just a random dudes opinion.

gt2k
06-22-2018, 06:53 PM
I thought so to, but apparently that's not the case.

This is what Marcostyle posted on Twitter:


He usually is quite accurate with his analysis, but keep in mind this is just a random dudes opinion.

Marco will provide evidence to back his claims.

SevenNVD
06-22-2018, 07:08 PM
Marco will provide evidence to back his claims.



I know, but I didn't want to come across as "Marco said it so it's true". I only figured the tweet was worthwhile to post here.

06-23-2018, 02:57 AM
I thought so to, but apparently that's not the case.

This is what Marcostyle posted on Twitter:


He usually is quite accurate with his analysis, but keep in mind this is just a random dudes opinion.

I mean, it's just an animation. If anything it's something to get a good laugh out of rather than something to be super concerned about.

Now, if the animation took control away and handicapped you from completing a function, then we'd have a problem.

III_Hammer_III
06-23-2018, 02:31 PM
I thought so to, but apparently that's not the case.

This is what Marcostyle posted on Twitter:


He usually is quite accurate with his analysis, but keep in mind this is just a random dudes opinion.

You don't need Adobe Premiere (why would one use it to begin with? 3DMax perhaps?) to see the difference in the running animation. No angle in TD1 is going to make the space between the toon's knees while running as wide as it looks in TD2.

Trippul G
06-23-2018, 03:54 PM
You don't need Adobe Premiere (why would one use it to begin with? 3DMax perhaps?) to see the difference in the running animation. No angle in TD1 is going to make the space between the toon's knees while running as wide as it looks in TD2.

3D Studio Max is a 3D content creation and visual effects tool. Not very well suited for frame by frame viewing, editing, and analysis of video footage, which is precisely what Adobe Premiere is built for.

III_Hammer_III
06-23-2018, 05:09 PM
3D Studio Max is a 3D content creation and visual effects tool. Not very well suited for frame by frame viewing, editing, and analysis of video footage, which is precisely what Adobe Premiere is built for.

Indeed, 3DMax is a content creation and visual effects tool, in which you can play animations (even side by side) and rotate the models any which way you want, which would be much, much, much more effective than frame by frame video analysis of an animation.

Trippul G
06-23-2018, 05:28 PM
Indeed, 3DMax is a content creation and visual effects tool, in which you can play animations (even side by side) and rotate the models any which way you want, which would be much, much, much more effective than frame by frame video analysis of an animation.

I know what I'm talking about, I worked in visual effects for 15 years and used programs like Max and Premiere on a daily basis. Trust me when I say that 3D Studio Max is NOT the right tool for the job of comparing video footage.

MarcoStyle does not have access to the actual 3D models used in TD2 (nor, presumably, those from TD1), nor the animation data has been applied to them, to be able to analyze them in a 3D environment, as 3D Studio Max would require.

All he does have, is flat, 2D video footage that has been captured of each game. Adobe Premiere is absolutely the proper tool for analyzing such a thing.

III_Hammer_III
06-23-2018, 06:25 PM
I know what I'm talking about, I worked in visual effects for 15 years and used programs like Max and Premiere on a daily basis. Trust me when I say that 3D Studio Max is NOT the right tool for the job of comparing video footage.
And what would be the right tool for analyzing computer animations?


All he does have, is flat, 2D video footage that has been captured of each game. Adobe Premiere is absolutely the proper tool for analyzing such a thing.

Or youtube for that matter. I don't think a frame by frame analysis is necessary to see the gap between the knees in the running animation.

Trippul G
06-23-2018, 07:43 PM
And what would be the right tool for analyzing computer animations?



Or youtube for that matter. I don't think a frame by frame analysis is necessary to see the gap between the knees in the running animation.

I'm not going to argue with you. You clearly have your own opinion and are not receptive to being told differently.

You can't just load up a video of something into a 3D program, and expect to magically have 3-dimensional data. Strictly speaking, video footage has an X dimension, and a Y dimension. That's it. A 3D program additionally requires the existence of data for a Z dimension in order to be able to rotate around an object and view it from different angles.

It's like the difference between holding a can of soda in your hand, which you can rotate around, see the back of, look underneath, etc...versus taking a picture of that can of soda. You can't rotate that picture around to look at the back of the can, because all that information is gone. The picture is just flat pixels arranged side by side which contains colors so that it resembles a soda can.

Point being, if you wanted to analyze something in 3D space and be able to rotate around it, zoom in and out, etc...you need to have the 3D models which contain that extra data, which neither MarcoStyle (nor anyone else not on the development team of The Division 2) has access to. All he does have is flat, 2D video footage, which makes analyzing it using 3D Studio Max or any other similar 3D content creation tool, pointless.

BOT_Coyote
06-23-2018, 09:05 PM
The whole debate can be summed as such:

All we have to go on is a few gameplay videos, not even analyses but just gameplay videos. By their very nature videos are 2D, this leads to a problem where this can skew the perception of a 3D object as much of the information is lost, a pose (or an animation) can look great from one perspective and at the same time being completely garbage when seen from any other.

Relevant video on the matter:


https://youtu.be/o1tti636Kag?t=18m8s

Make what you want of it, I personally don't see much of an issue.

III_Hammer_III
06-24-2018, 02:37 AM
You can't just load up a video of something into a 3D program, and expect to magically have 3-dimensional data. .

Who said anything about loading video into a 3D program? My duh! moment really is, we don't have access to the TD2 models yet.

Trippul G
06-24-2018, 08:04 AM
Who said anything about loading video into a 3D program? My duh! moment really is, we don't have access to the TD2 models yet.

Even if you did have access to them, how would you go about loading your main character from either game, into something like 3D Studio Max, with all animation data intact (not to mention things like normal maps), so you can do your proper side by side comparison?

I'd love to know.

BOT_Coyote
06-24-2018, 09:12 AM
Even if you did have access to them, how would you go about loading your main character from either game, into something like 3D Studio Max, with all animation data intact (not to mention things like normal maps), so you can do your proper side by side comparison?

Would texture maps (or even character models to an extent) be all that relevant when comparing or analysing an animation? Just the armature and animation would be good enough IMO.

Trippul G
06-24-2018, 04:16 PM
Would texture maps (or even character models to an extent) be all that relevant when comparing or analysing an animation? Just the armature and animation would be good enough IMO.

The model is what the animation data is applied to. Normal maps are not "texture maps" in the traditional sense, but rather they are applied to a model to increase visual detail without inflating the polygon count (important for real-time work). As such, strictly speaking, they are not REQUIRED, but they CAN significantly impact the overall look of a model, and should definitely be considered.

Now on to getting hold of the animation data. You basically have two options: bringing in the animation rig, which consists of the skeleton and control hierarchy; or bringing in point cloud data.

But here's the rub: transferring data, especially animation data, between software packages is tricky at the best of times, due to every single package doing it slightly differently. Coordinate systems might be different ("up" in package A might be "straight ahead" in package B), entire categories of data might get dropped because they have no direct equivalent in package B, etc. This is why transferring animation data is avoided most times, if at all possible. It's generally done in one package, and that's where it stays.

The other option, as I mentioned, is bringing in point cloud data. This is generally only used for things like smaller (low polygon count) objects, but can be applied to entire characters, if need be. Problem here is that this data can be HUGE. In it, you're storing the X, Y, and Z position of every point on the model, for every single frame of the animation in question. Say you've got a character model with 10,000 points (which is really quite low, generally speaking)...for one frame, that's 30,000 numbers. Depending on what fps you're animating for, (24 for film, 30 for TV, etc), those numbers VERY quickly can balloon out of hand and turn into some unwieldy file sizes.

The other problem with getting point cloud information applied is that it relies on your source model and your destination model being identical. And not just "yeah, that looks the same", but point for point, polygon for polygon, IDENTICAL. When character models (or any kind of model, really) are built, they maintain something called point order, which is a sort of history of how they were built. Models are made of polygons, and polygons are made by connecting points. When you create these points and polygons, each point that is created is assigned a unique ID. The first point that is created is assigned #1, 2 for the second point, 3 for the third, and so on.

When point cloud animation data is applied to a model, the point order of each model (source and destination) needs to be EXACTLY the same. If not, it either won't work at all, or your character will just be a jumbled mess.

Well, this shouldn't be a problem, you say, right? You're taking the model from the game and you're going to bring him into 3D Studio Max, so everything will be the same, right? First of all, no one has any point cloud information except the developers. It's ridiculously large data, and there would be absolutely zero reason for them to include it anywhere on a game disc. So that's out.

But back to the character model. It's not like you'd be bringing in a 3D Studio Max-native file. Sure that's where it may have originated, but again, they're not going to give you the source file on the game disc...what's there has been exported and converted into a (often proprietary) format which strips out any extraneous data and gives the game engine only that which it absolutely needs. It's like if you create an image in Photoshop. You're not going to put the original PSD file up on your web page, with all of its layers and masks and alpha channels and what not. You're going export it down into a jpg or a png or whatever. It still looks like the original, but all of that extra data is gone.

So even if you brought the model into Max and it came in perfectly, you're still not getting the "original" data. Most times, when people try bringing game models into 3D packages, the results are less than perfect. The data that's there may need to be unpacked in a certain way, then there may be other files that need to be applied, etc. When doing this, things like point orders can get messed up, polygons can be doubled up or inverted, and all sorts of other problems. It's all generally pretty finicky because people are trying to reverse engineer something that the developers don't generally want you messing with in the first place.

So...bottom line, after all of that, is this: even if you do manage to get your game character model into your 3D software properly, you're going to have one hell of a time first finding the animation data, and then bringing it in and applying it accurately. Unless you're a member of the dev team, I dare say that it can't be done.

III_Hammer_III
06-24-2018, 06:13 PM
Even if you did have access to them, how would you go about loading your main character from either game, into something like 3D Studio Max, with all animation data intact (not to mention things like normal maps), so you can do your proper side by side comparison?

I'd love to know.

I don't have to load my character from the game, just the skeleton and animations that already reside in my hard drive. What do normal maps have to do with anything?

BOT_Coyote
06-24-2018, 07:03 PM
The model is what the animation data is applied to. Normal maps are not "texture maps" in the traditional sense, but rather they are applied to a model to increase visual detail without inflating the polygon count (important for real-time work). As such, strictly speaking, they are not REQUIRED, but they CAN significantly impact the overall look of a model, and should definitely be considered.

Thanks for the explanation and an overall interesting read but I too dabble in 3D and I am aware how most of this stuff works, it's not 15 years of experience in the field like you but I manage.

I only wanted to suggest not to make the whole problem overly complex at the beginning, if there are concerns about the animation, I'd focus on the animation alone first before slapping geometry and textures onto it.

Trippul G
06-24-2018, 08:03 PM
I don't have to load my character from the game, just the skeleton and animations that already reside in my hard drive. What do normal maps have to do with anything?

Please point me to an example of someone who has bought The Division, and loaded their character model into 3D Studio Max, and who has successfully applied game animation data to it, so that the result is a 1:1 replica of what's seen in-game. Seriously, I'd love to see it.

Trippul G
06-24-2018, 08:07 PM
I only wanted to suggest not to make the whole problem overly complex at the beginning, if there are concerns about the animation, I'd focus on the animation alone first before slapping geometry and textures onto it.

Absolutely, I get what you're saying, and generally you're right, you want to keep things as simple as possible. But a lot of times with things like character tests, you'll want things like normal maps applied since often the geometry can look quite different if they are/are not applied.

Trippul G
06-25-2018, 12:47 AM
Basically, my whole point is, if you're saying that this character looks worse than another character, logic dictates that you look at the characters in as close to their final form as is possible and practical, to determine their differences.

In the case of comparing animation, assuming you want to do it in a 3D environment and not just look at 2D rendered videos, you don't need things like color maps, but you absolutely at least need the character model itself, along with whatever rig has been created and used to animate the character.

You can't just compare a rig to another rig, with no character model, as, if I'm not mistaken, seems to be what you and Hammer have suggested. Assuming you have animation data applied to the rig, you'll be able to get a sense of overall timing, and that's about it. Without a character model (actual physical geometry) to go with the rig, you're essentially flying blind and are just guessing what the character will look like when the rig is applied to it.


I don't have to load my character from the game, just the skeleton and animations that already reside in my hard drive.

What are these "skeletons and animations" that already reside on your hard drive? Where did they originate from? How are you viewing them?

R1nKR_PS4
06-26-2018, 01:46 PM
If Ubisoft donít apply the lessons from ghost recon wildlands that will be a great shame. Hiding behind everything is not tactical imo but I do like the sneak and peek stuff for recon value