PDA

View Full Version : A deep dive into Tiandi and Shaolin.



Knight_Raime
06-14-2018, 11:56 PM
Warriors den today came out with a better look at these 2 heros. For those who might not have seen previously already I had linked images to both of their movesets. I will do so again. But I will also link Freezes frame data video of the 2. That way you can get an idea on their speeds. What I myself will be contributing today is a bit more detail on the characters themselves and just what kind of viability each hero will have. So here are the links:

Tiandi moveset and feats: https://imgur.com/a/oy78otM#PiQdiCZ

Shaolin Moveset and feats: https://imgur.com/a/QkwBGIk

Freeze's Frame data video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRlOgLBJFlM

All executions for both heros: https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/co...in_executions/


Deep look at Tiandi:

So Tiandi is a vanguard hero that's designed to be simple/easily grasped but with elegant/graceful flow. His shtick revolves around dodging. Specifically his dodge heavy. Which is 1200ms. For a frame of reference that's a tad slower than a raider's zone attack. What's unique about it is it can be canceled in a variety of ways. You can empty dodge it meaning you just dodge cancel out of it. You can soft cancel into his kick (which confirms no damage outside splats.) You can cancel it into another dodge heavy. OR you can cancel it into his dodge light. His dodge light attacks are both undodgable and have the superior block property. And he can do this seemingly forever until his stamina is gone. (note can't cancel the dodge light.) His dodge attacks also count as the first attack in a chain when they land (blocked or not.)

This sounds incredibly strong. But will only really see use in 4v4's. Dodge happy behavior doesn't work out in duels. And since it's a slow attack, the slowest dodge attack in the game, it's always going to have to be canceled. Which gives the opponent, in theory, more than one instance to read the situation and punish with a GB or fast attack. Waiting to parry or dodge doesn't seem very viable here but turtling seems semi viable. This isn't the only thing about him though. Tiandi has access to a move that looks like a palm hit. This can be done from neutral and in combo. Specifically only after a light. His kick also can be gained from a combo. But only from a heavy.

Palm strike can be done from neutral as well. Meaning it's similar to toe stab in that way. Neither palm strike nor kick need to have a hit land in order to do them. Meaning you can punish someone who's trying to punish you for a whiff on say a heavy. And the palm guarantees a 400ms light. Meaning even in neutral a person can't just empty GB you because you can threaten with a palm strike in more than one instance. I should mention that he can cancel part of his zone with kick as well. His kick is cancelable into both his dodge heavy and his dodge light. So even if he can't make much use of the kick itself in duels he can use it to soft cancel into things.

Some final notes. His zones second hit can also be dodged out of. Forward dodge attack has undodgable property. and he can dodge out of his long recoveries for most attacks. Basically put he's a very flexible hero where he can cancel into and out of a lot of things with very little restraint but due to his simplistic moves consisting of only 2 hit combos he's not overly complicated to understand. His high level of play is entirely about knowing what to use when.

Deep look at Shaolin:

Shaolin is this groups hybrid character! We all thought he was an assassin due to his guard decay. But nope. He's a hybrid who just happens to have reflex guard. Anyway, This character is built around "mastery." Meaning you're meant to out mind game your opponent. His Main thing is called the "qui stance." Which is similar to highlander in that you hold your inputs in order to gain access to it. You can enter this stance by holding either light attack or heavy attack. You can't enter the stance from combo finishers. Example being death point strike/alternate final hit you can't enter into the stance on that. Deflect also gets you into the stance automatically. More on the stance in a bit.

Death point strike is a 3 hit combo that is guaranteed if the first hit lands. It can only be done on either side not top stance and you can't swap sides mid point strike. It's input in a funky way. example. left light>left light>left light. Meaning I believe you have to tap left each time you press light. The timing is being compared to triple pk stab and centurions hilt smacks during GB. Except it being a bit more complex input wise. Back to the stance. The stance has a taunt like Highlander because why not. you also cannot see the guard stance direction while he's in his stance. Meaning you can't tell where he's going to attack from. He can't move during this stance or block. But he can dash/feint out of it.

From the stance you can initiate a rapid kick move that guarantees a light. But it can also lead into a sweep. Which guarantees a heavy. Or you can go into an unblockable top heavy which isn't guaranteed. The stance also has the equivelant of crushing counter but from any direction. Timing is supposedly a fair bit stricter on the sides especially. Done from initiating a light into someone's attack at the proper timing in the stance. Can side dodge heavy out of the stance which lets you dodge. It has undodgable property on the dodge heavy as well. His zone attack is 3 hits. all have armor. can feint out after the first hit. he's got an infinite combo. Basically like Berzerkers. You can light heavy light heavy light heavy. Or you can heavy light heavy light etc. He has a really quick back step light as well like bushi. Also has 2 quick basic attacks in qui stance as well.

Basically put he's got the ability to continually attack with decent speed and a stance which makes him very unpredictable and gives him an answer to basically any situation you can ask for. But because he can't get into the stance from finishers he's got some predictability. As pretty much most moves in his stance are enders. Death point strike is a decent poke tool for someone that's hastely rushing to pressure you. Sweeping is strong but can only come from after a kick. It doesn't say the kick needs to land. Which imo means he has delay use potential like valks. Deflect letting you lead into stance with damage means his deflect is worth going for. He's the most technical character to date.

Initial thoughts: Both kits are strong. Tiandi might be a bit weaker in duels due to dodge games not being super strong. And Shaolin might be a bit weaker in team fights due to lack of defense in qui stance. Though I would stake a bet that Shaolin fairs better in a team fight than Highlander due to the options he has and the general unpredictability in his kit. Plus he's got decent options outside of qui stance which is something Highlander unfortunately doesn't have. I'm not even going to attempt to guess where they would sit tier list wise. But I can comfortably say that I don't think either are going to under perform to the point that a lot of heros currently do. Which is encouraging. It really goes to show how far the developers have come with hero design.

As always discussion is welcomed and I appreciate you sticking along for the long posts that I usually make~

Alustar.exe
06-15-2018, 12:18 AM
This might be the first time I've actually wanted to play both a hybrid and a vanguard! **** yes!

Knight_Raime
06-15-2018, 12:30 AM
This might be the first time I've actually wanted to play both a hybrid and a vanguard! **** yes!

Tiandi being like a mix of kensei and shinobi has me excited. I like Kensei through and through. And I like the movement afforded to shinobi. Just hate how it ends up actually playing out in his kit. So i'm digging him.

Regardless of Shaolin's capabilities the #1 dlc hero I wanted for this game was a monk. And he's a monk. So I would have liked him regardless. I find it a bit interesting that they chose to break from tradition here though and gave him a reflex guard. I get why from a balance sense. It's just interesting to see where and when the devs are willing to blur their own lines. The monk will be my instant pick up hero if the assassin doesn't turn out as great as my mind is hyping her to be.

Fairemont
06-15-2018, 01:07 AM
Tiandi being like a mix of kensei and shinobi has me excited. I like Kensei through and through. And I like the movement afforded to shinobi. Just hate how it ends up actually playing out in his kit. So i'm digging him.

Regardless of Shaolin's capabilities the #1 dlc hero I wanted for this game was a monk. And he's a monk. So I would have liked him regardless. I find it a bit interesting that they chose to break from tradition here though and gave him a reflex guard. I get why from a balance sense. It's just interesting to see where and when the devs are willing to blur their own lines. The monk will be my instant pick up hero if the assassin doesn't turn out as great as my mind is hyping her to be.

They gave him literally every feature the game has available, they were probably like 'lol wtf why not' and gave him reflex guard, too.

UbiJurassic
06-15-2018, 01:18 AM
Very nice write-up on the new heroes Knight_Raime! After today's demo on the Warrior's Den, I'm personally looking forward to playing the Tiandi. :)

Knight_Raime
06-15-2018, 01:21 AM
They gave him literally every feature the game has available, they were probably like 'lol wtf why not' and gave him reflex guard, too.

Well I mean if you want to get techincal he doesn't have superior block d:
Actually come to think of it I don't think he has soft feints either.

Knight_Raime
06-15-2018, 01:22 AM
Very nice write-up on the new heroes Knight_Raime! After today's demo on the Warrior's Den, I'm personally looking forward to playing the Tiandi. :)

Yeah after learning a bit more how he plays my interest in him went up a bit. I still gotta see how the other 2 play out before picking my new main. Been itching to have a new one forever since I never really moved off of my Centurion.

Lord_Cherubi
06-15-2018, 01:37 AM
Everytime i see gameplay footage of Shaolin all i can think of is Morgan from Walking Dead schooling armed bandits with a stick, this dude will so be my main!

Im really curious about the old man as well, he looks pretty agile for a heavy.

UbiJurassic
06-15-2018, 01:38 AM
Yeah after learning a bit more how he plays my interest in him went up a bit. I still gotta see how the other 2 play out before picking my new main. Been itching to have a new one forever since I never really moved off of my Centurion.

Based on visual alone, I already decided that Nuxia would be my main.

Lord_Cherubi
06-15-2018, 01:41 AM
Based on visual alone, I already decided that Nuxia would be my main.

The execution shown in the trailer already convinced me that she is going to be a badass.

Knight_Raime
06-15-2018, 05:15 PM
Based on visual alone, I already decided that Nuxia would be my main.

She's who i'm eyeing as well. Because she seems to be a direct counter to the playstyle I struggle with. But I need to see/hear more about her first.

NHLGoldenKnight
06-15-2018, 07:16 PM
Overall, I like the new faction and I would definitely jumped back into the game if update was coming right now. In 4 months, it is hard to tell.

I always enjoyed watching historically inspired movies from Asia ( more like fantasy really lol), and these heroes fit well in what interests me.

I am most worried about Shaolin and assasin girl. Shaolin looks op on paper but if they give gim low damage and low health, it should be fine.
Assasin girl ( Nuxia?) On the other hand worries me even more. Ubi is traditionally biased when it comes to assasins and arguably, assasins are best rated heroes in their factions. That alone, is a huge reason to worry and I am pretty sure Ubi will not disappoint. Assasin girl will be OP, if nothing else, because it is common in gaming industry to empower female heroes, even better if they are assasins. PK, Shaman are just some of examples.

I am most excited about Heavy. Don't know almost anything about him but visually he reminds me of heroes from some of the movies I watched. I am definitely planning on playing him and Vanguard.

Knight_Raime
06-15-2018, 07:32 PM
Overall, I like the new faction and I would definitely jumped back into the game if update was coming right now. In 4 months, it is hard to tell.

I always enjoyed watching historically inspired movies from Asia ( more like fantasy really lol), and these heroes fit well in what interests me.

I am most worried about Shaolin and assasin girl. Shaolin looks op on paper but if they give gim low damage and low health, it should be fine.
Assasin girl ( Nuxia?) On the other hand worries me even more. Ubi is traditionally biased when it comes to assasins and arguably, assasins are best rated heroes in their factions. That alone, is a huge reason to worry and I am pretty sure Ubi will not disappoint. Assasin girl will be OP, if nothing else, because it is common in gaming industry to empower female heroes, even better if they are assasins. PK, Shaman are just some of examples.

I am most excited about Heavy. Don't know almost anything about him but visually he reminds me of heroes from some of the movies I watched. I am definitely planning on playing him and Vanguard.

Honestly the fact that the Monk's staff has actual physics makes me giddy. The sound of it thwacking people is great as well. They really stepped up with asthetics in general.
Nuixa does sound strong from what little we know. That being she can have range due to combining her weapons. and she can also grapple peoples weapons for a free hit if they block her.
But we don't know how those things work entirely. So the fear could be for nothing.

All we know about the heavy is that most of his attacks are treated as zones. They have wide sweaping aoe's. Which means his moves cost more stamina. But he's got a stance that lets him regen stamina at a faster pace.

Fairemont
06-15-2018, 07:41 PM
I'm super pumped for all the magic they are adding to the game. Like teleporting.

Knight_Raime
06-15-2018, 07:44 PM
I'm super pumped for all the magic they are adding to the game. Like teleporting.

I like the idea of being able to reach an ally quickly. just need to see the range and how it works mechanically. Not too sure how I feel about teleporting behind an enemy and kicking them.

RenegadeTX2000
06-15-2018, 08:04 PM
I'm definitely maining Shaolin just because of how hard he is to use. That's what drew me highlander.

Very hard to use and win with but rewards you massively.

NHLGoldenKnight
06-15-2018, 08:06 PM
Well, even idea of reaching an ally quickly or just randomly teleporting worries me a lot more than moves Shaolin or any other hero has.
Reason why is that will give huge tactical advantage if you can teleport wherever you want. Even if you can only teleport to your closest ally, it still leaves a lot of potential issues and could damage gameplay experience.

Let's say you are fighting Shaolin and winning but before you finish him, he teleports to his ally, they kill your friend and now , there is two of them coming at you? Even if he just teleports behind you, it is not something we need in this game. Shinobi and Aramusha are already annoying with their dissappear act, they always break that little bit of immersion I can still get from this game.

Honestly, I don't see any way ( or need) to introduce teleporting without being OP tactical advantage. I hope that developers reconsider and go in different direction. There must be few unique tricks that Shaolin could get without actually getting silly. I could have some animal coming to his aid, like an eagle or something like that lol

Knight_Raime
06-15-2018, 08:13 PM
I'm definitely maining Shaolin just because of how hard he is to use. That's what drew me highlander.

Very hard to use and win with but rewards you massively.

Yeah he's my for sure pick of Nuixa isn't as good/fun as i'm hyping her in my head to be.

RenegadeTX2000
06-16-2018, 09:05 AM
Why are you guys complaining about teleporting when you have bombs that could clear minions in 1 go, take out a group of 4? Seriously? Bombs are still the better choice by far. I'll take AOE damage over single target feats.

RenegadeTX2000
06-16-2018, 09:21 AM
She's who i'm eyeing as well. Because she seems to be a direct counter to the playstyle I struggle with. But I need to see/hear more about her first.

I think Lawbringer might be her worst mu because of shove on block.

MuscleTech12018
06-16-2018, 05:04 PM
I wonder when ubisoft will give us GAME BALANCE and real fighting styles rather than crappy asians .. meh :)

Vakris_One
06-16-2018, 05:30 PM
I wonder when ubisoft will give us GAME BALANCE and real fighting styles rather than crappy asians .. meh :)
Because Chinese martial arts aren't a real fighting style? GTF outta here, lol!

Knight_Raime
06-16-2018, 05:33 PM
I think Lawbringer might be her worst mu because of shove on block.

LB won't have shove on block after his rework.

CandleInTheDark
06-16-2018, 05:44 PM
This reddit post has all tiandi and shaolin executions https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/8r9335/all_tiandi_shaolin_executions/

Knight_Raime
06-16-2018, 06:03 PM
This reddit post has all tiandi and shaolin executions https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/8r9335/all_tiandi_shaolin_executions/

sweet! will add to OP.

MuscleTech12018
06-16-2018, 06:58 PM
Because Chinese martial arts aren't a real fighting style? GTF outta here, lol!

What was that ? Lol .. I still refuse to believe you are that stupid :))

Because jumping, flipping, stick-climbing, rotating like a monkey .... is real fight ?:)) OOOK anime boy :))

Vakris_One
06-17-2018, 04:16 PM
What was that ? Lol .. I still refuse to believe you are that stupid :))

Because jumping, flipping, stick-climbing, rotating like a monkey .... is real fight ?:)) OOOK anime boy :))
I see intellect is not your strong point. You've made such a complete fool of yourself in the span of just two posts that there's nothing more to say really.

Thanks for saving me the time :)

MuscleTech12018
06-17-2018, 11:46 PM
I see intellect is not your strong point. You've made such a complete fool of yourself in the span of just two posts that there's nothing more to say really.

Thanks for saving me the time :)


So uhm... your so called "intellect" tells you to post without any arguments while "acting cool so maybe nobody notices i have nothing to say" =))

AkenoKobayashi
06-18-2018, 01:01 AM
What are these feats? Good lord.

E1seNw0Lf
06-18-2018, 01:07 AM
Wonder why they didn't show all feats - pfff, scrubs. :rolleyes:

Vakris_One
06-18-2018, 04:07 AM
So uhm... your so called "intellect" tells you to post without any arguments while "acting cool so maybe nobody notices i have nothing to say" =))
Except you haven't made any arguments. You've just been typing nonsence with a hostile and bigoted attitude. Why would I want to continue conversing with someone who is so ignorant they think Chinese martial arts are not real fighting styles, uses hostile derogatory language like "crappy asians" to refer to a culture they are clearly ignorant about. And to top it off starts throwing childish insults when someone disagrees with them.

Please do continue posting though. The way you constantly score own goals against yourself is really quite entertaining to watch :)

Knight_Raime
06-18-2018, 05:37 AM
Wonder why they didn't show all feats - pfff, scrubs. :rolleyes:

Actually criken and strippin have footage of some of the feats being used. Cartoonz might as well since he was there.

DrinkinMyStella
06-18-2018, 09:03 AM
thats for the write up. Tiandi looks like my new main, im not bothered by his slower attacks are his limited moveset but I like him mainly because of his mixup potential and his style is like kensei who I also main so I should feel right at home.

SpaceJim12
06-18-2018, 10:07 AM
LB won't have shove on block after his rework.

Aww, I will miss this thing. Don't use it often, but against lightspamers it could be ultimate move.

As for new characters...couple things make me worried.
1. Shaolin have too much. Range, UB, kicks, special stance, deflect, Valky's sweep. Really too much. Still, I don't want to call some chars OP until try them myself (I made this mistake before, enough of it)
2. What really sad about it all, that is new mechanics happend again and again, but old heroes can't have em. Let's say dodge attack. After Marching Fire update we will have two vanguards, who have dodge attack. Why others vanguards can't have it? Warden and Raider. Yes, this char will tak rework, but Warden looks the same, just couple new moves and speed boost. Waht about all sides counter crush? What about some dodge attack? I don't think they will add it to Warden. So, Tiandi now looks most intresting vanguard. Why LB can't have a sweep? Yes, I still hope for the reworks, but they mostly don't add new mechanics to charater, just some changes to his moves (yes, Conq is an exception).
And I believe nwe faction will bring some new game mechanic (this thing, that you can attack, if your prev attack blocked), that will bypass old characters as well. The most sad thing here, that all char are not equal in terms of intresting fighting gameplay.

Vakris_One
06-18-2018, 01:00 PM
Aww, I will miss this thing. Don't use it often, but against lightspamers it could be ultimate move.

As for new characters...couple things make me worried.
1. Shaolin have too much. Range, UB, kicks, special stance, deflect, Valky's sweep. Really too much. Still, I don't want to call some chars OP until try them myself (I made this mistake before, enough of it)
2. What really sad about it all, that is new mechanics happend again and again, but old heroes can't have em. Let's say dodge attack. After Marching Fire update we will have two vanguards, who have dodge attack. Why others vanguards can't have it? Warden and Raider. Yes, this char will tak rework, but Warden looks the same, just couple new moves and speed boost. Waht about all sides counter crush? What about some dodge attack? I don't think they will add it to Warden. So, Tiandi now looks most intresting vanguard. Why LB can't have a sweep? Yes, I still hope for the reworks, but they mostly don't add new mechanics to charater, just some changes to his moves (yes, Conq is an exception).
And I believe nwe faction will bring some new game mechanic (this thing, that you can attack, if your prev attack blocked), that will bypass old characters as well. The most sad thing here, that all char are not equal in terms of intresting fighting gameplay.
Warden has his dodge attack option with shoulder bash which drains stamina and guarrantees him damage if it lands. It actually has more utility than a normal dodge attack since it can put an opponent OOS if they were low on stamina. And he can use it as a mind game because he can soft cancel it into GB to catch dodges. Warden's shoulder bash is one of the best dodge attack options in the game to be honest.

Giving him a normal dodge attack would be a nerf in my opinion. And as for giving every character the same or similiar moves well then we might as well make every character the same with only a couple variations but that would be incredibly boring and would kill the variety in the gameplay. What the devs are doing is the right way to go about it, which is to make sure every character is viable and competitive with the rest of the roster.

The new Wu Lin characters may have shiny new moves but until we actually play as them we can't say for sure what will be a problem. Personally I think Nuxia being able to damage you for blocking her has the potential to be very broken but until we get our hands on the character we can't know for sure if there are weaknesses to exploit that would make them balanced.

SpaceJim12
06-18-2018, 02:55 PM
And as for giving every character the same or similiar moves well then we might as well make every character the same with only a couple variations but that would be incredibly boring and would kill the variety in the gameplay. What the devs are doing is the right way to go about it, which is to make sure every character is viable and competitive with the rest of the roster.

But Shaolin here have almost everything, exept soft feints.=)
Still, maybe you are right, and this feeleing of new chars being too well designed is just because they are new. I really want to try Tiandi myself. This "kick out of here" move should be cool.


The new Wu Lin characters may have shiny new moves but until we actually play as them we can't say for sure what will be a problem. Personally I think Nuxia being able to damage you for blocking her has the potential to be very broken but until we get our hands on the character we can't know for sure if there are weaknesses to exploit that would make them balanced.

Still, I can bet all my steel, that we will see a lot "nerf this" threads after October 16th.

Lord_Cherubi
06-18-2018, 03:04 PM
Still, I can bet all my steel, that we will see a lot "nerf this" threads after October 16th.

Oh most certainly we will, this has been the case in basically every time a new hero/rework gets released. Kensei, shaman, zerker, musha, highlander... pretty much every hero is overpowered if asked by people in these forums. I can bet my game copy that Warden will suddenly get called "OP noob hero" after his rework while right now people seem to think he's weak because he doesn't have as many moves as the others, even when it seems it'll be more of a list of tweaks and minor additions than an actual rework.

Vakris_One
06-18-2018, 03:08 PM
But Shaolin here have almost everything, exept soft feints.=)
Still, maybe you are right, and this feeleing of new chars being too well designed is just because they are new. I really want to try Tiandi myself. This "kick out of here" move should be cool.
True, Shaolin may have a lot of kit options shoved into just one hero but he has different ways of using them that is unique to his particular weapon; the bo staff. I feel that as long as the moves are unique to the particular weapon and the style of the hero then it's not a problem if he is using a familiar mechanic, but in a different style.



Still, I can bet all my steel, that we will see a lot "nerf this" threads after October 16th.
Oh that's a given. You can always bet on the forums lighting up with "nerf this!" threads regardless of how balanced new or reworked heroes are or are not.

SpaceJim12
06-18-2018, 04:06 PM
True, Shaolin may have a lot of kit options shoved into just one hero but he has different ways of using them that is unique to his particular weapon; the bo staff. I feel that as long as the moves are unique to the particular weapon and the style of the hero then it's not a problem if he is using a familiar mechanic, but in a different style.

That's lead us to my most wanted thing! Let LB have a sweep same as Valky and Shaolin. =)
Btw, I can see how Nobu mains could ask for her rework after Shaolin appears.This two chars use almost same fighting style and almost same weapons. While Nobu use some kung fu moves, she must be equal to Shaolin, I think.

SanaMinatozaki-
06-18-2018, 04:58 PM
Warriors den today came out with a better look at these 2 heros. For those who might not have seen previously already I had linked images to both of their movesets. I will do so again. But I will also link Freezes frame data video of the 2. That way you can get an idea on their speeds. What I myself will be contributing today is a bit more detail on the characters themselves and just what kind of viability each hero will have. So here are the links:

Tiandi moveset and feats: https://imgur.com/a/oy78otM#PiQdiCZ

Shaolin Moveset and feats: https://imgur.com/a/QkwBGIk

Freeze's Frame data video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRlOgLBJFlM

All executions for both heros: https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/co...in_executions/


Deep look at Tiandi:

So Tiandi is a vanguard hero that's designed to be simple/easily grasped but with elegant/graceful flow. His shtick revolves around dodging. Specifically his dodge heavy. Which is 1200ms. For a frame of reference that's a tad slower than a raider's zone attack. What's unique about it is it can be canceled in a variety of ways. You can empty dodge it meaning you just dodge cancel out of it. You can soft cancel into his kick (which confirms no damage outside splats.) You can cancel it into another dodge heavy. OR you can cancel it into his dodge light. His dodge light attacks are both undodgable and have the superior block property. And he can do this seemingly forever until his stamina is gone. (note can't cancel the dodge light.) His dodge attacks also count as the first attack in a chain when they land (blocked or not.)

This sounds incredibly strong. But will only really see use in 4v4's. Dodge happy behavior doesn't work out in duels. And since it's a slow attack, the slowest dodge attack in the game, it's always going to have to be canceled. Which gives the opponent, in theory, more than one instance to read the situation and punish with a GB or fast attack. Waiting to parry or dodge doesn't seem very viable here but turtling seems semi viable. This isn't the only thing about him though. Tiandi has access to a move that looks like a palm hit. This can be done from neutral and in combo. Specifically only after a light. His kick also can be gained from a combo. But only from a heavy.

Palm strike can be done from neutral as well. Meaning it's similar to toe stab in that way. Neither palm strike nor kick need to have a hit land in order to do them. Meaning you can punish someone who's trying to punish you for a whiff on say a heavy. And the palm guarantees a 400ms light. Meaning even in neutral a person can't just empty GB you because you can threaten with a palm strike in more than one instance. I should mention that he can cancel part of his zone with kick as well. His kick is cancelable into both his dodge heavy and his dodge light. So even if he can't make much use of the kick itself in duels he can use it to soft cancel into things.

Some final notes. His zones second hit can also be dodged out of. Forward dodge attack has undodgable property. and he can dodge out of his long recoveries for most attacks. Basically put he's a very flexible hero where he can cancel into and out of a lot of things with very little restraint but due to his simplistic moves consisting of only 2 hit combos he's not overly complicated to understand. His high level of play is entirely about knowing what to use when.

Deep look at Shaolin:

Shaolin is this groups hybrid character! We all thought he was an assassin due to his guard decay. But nope. He's a hybrid who just happens to have reflex guard. Anyway, This character is built around "mastery." Meaning you're meant to out mind game your opponent. His Main thing is called the "qui stance." Which is similar to highlander in that you hold your inputs in order to gain access to it. You can enter this stance by holding either light attack or heavy attack. You can't enter the stance from combo finishers. Example being death point strike/alternate final hit you can't enter into the stance on that. Deflect also gets you into the stance automatically. More on the stance in a bit.

Death point strike is a 3 hit combo that is guaranteed if the first hit lands. It can only be done on either side not top stance and you can't swap sides mid point strike. It's input in a funky way. example. left light>left light>left light. Meaning I believe you have to tap left each time you press light. The timing is being compared to triple pk stab and centurions hilt smacks during GB. Except it being a bit more complex input wise. Back to the stance. The stance has a taunt like Highlander because why not. you also cannot see the guard stance direction while he's in his stance. Meaning you can't tell where he's going to attack from. He can't move during this stance or block. But he can dash/feint out of it.

From the stance you can initiate a rapid kick move that guarantees a light. But it can also lead into a sweep. Which guarantees a heavy. Or you can go into an unblockable top heavy which isn't guaranteed. The stance also has the equivelant of crushing counter but from any direction. Timing is supposedly a fair bit stricter on the sides especially. Done from initiating a light into someone's attack at the proper timing in the stance. Can side dodge heavy out of the stance which lets you dodge. It has undodgable property on the dodge heavy as well. His zone attack is 3 hits. all have armor. can feint out after the first hit. he's got an infinite combo. Basically like Berzerkers. You can light heavy light heavy light heavy. Or you can heavy light heavy light etc. He has a really quick back step light as well like bushi. Also has 2 quick basic attacks in qui stance as well.

Basically put he's got the ability to continually attack with decent speed and a stance which makes him very unpredictable and gives him an answer to basically any situation you can ask for. But because he can't get into the stance from finishers he's got some predictability. As pretty much most moves in his stance are enders. Death point strike is a decent poke tool for someone that's hastely rushing to pressure you. Sweeping is strong but can only come from after a kick. It doesn't say the kick needs to land. Which imo means he has delay use potential like valks. Deflect letting you lead into stance with damage means his deflect is worth going for. He's the most technical character to date.

Initial thoughts: Both kits are strong. Tiandi might be a bit weaker in duels due to dodge games not being super strong. And Shaolin might be a bit weaker in team fights due to lack of defense in qui stance. Though I would stake a bet that Shaolin fairs better in a team fight than Highlander due to the options he has and the general unpredictability in his kit. Plus he's got decent options outside of qui stance which is something Highlander unfortunately doesn't have. I'm not even going to attempt to guess where they would sit tier list wise. But I can comfortably say that I don't think either are going to under perform to the point that a lot of heros currently do. Which is encouraging. It really goes to show how far the developers have come with hero design.

As always discussion is welcomed and I appreciate you sticking along for the long posts that I usually make~

Hi Knight_Raime Sir,

Thank you for the detailed write up. Do share your speculation of Jiang Jun and Nuxia https://forums.ubi.com/forumdisplay.php/869-General-Discussion

Vakris_One
06-18-2018, 05:13 PM
That's lead us to my most wanted thing! Let LB have a sweep same as Valky and Shaolin. =)
Btw, I can see how Nobu mains could ask for her rework after Shaolin appears.This two chars use almost same fighting style and almost same weapons. While Nobu use some kung fu moves, she must be equal to Shaolin, I think.
LB can have other interesting things given to him like counter crush from left and right sides and some hyper armour moves since he is the single most armoured character in the game. A sweep wouldn't suit his weapon in my opinion unless it's like a big swing meant to chop off his opponent's legs but that would be more appropriate for an execution.

I do feel for the Valk and Nobu though and even the Highlander. At this point in time the Shaolin puts the Valkyrie completely in the bin. He does everything she does only he does it 150% better than her. Until we see her rework the Valkyrie really has no reason to exist now and that is quite sad.

Shaolin also has much more flow and usability than Nobushi and his second stance gives him much better options than Highlander's offensive stance. As well as the fact that Shaolin's normal moveset is much better than Highlander's defensive stance. So yeah, Valk is gonna need that rework in order to essentially earn the right to stay in this game as a unique character but both Nobu in general and Highlander's defensive stance will need some improvements as well. Without these things I do have to say there is a very real danger that Shaolin can essentially replace 3 whole characters from the roster.

Lord_Cherubi
06-18-2018, 05:28 PM
LB can have other interesting things given to him like counter crush from left and right sides and some hyper armour moves since he is the single most armoured character in the game. A sweep wouldn't suit his weapon in my opinion unless it's like a big swing meant to chop off his opponent's legs but that would be more appropriate for an execution.

I do feel for the Valk and Nobu though and even the Highlander. At this point in time the Shaolin puts the Valkyrie completely in the bin. He does everything she does only he does it 150% better than her. Until we see her rework the Valkyrie really has no reason to exist now and that is quite sad.

Shaolin also has much more flow and usability than Nobushi and his second stance gives him much better options than Highlander's offensive stance. As well as the fact that Shaolin's normal moveset is much better than Highlander's defensive stance. So yeah, Valk is gonna need that rework in order to essentially earn the right to stay in this game as a unique character but both Nobu in general and Highlander's defensive stance will need some improvements as well. Without these things I do have to say there is a very real danger that Shaolin can essentially replace 3 whole characters from the roster.

Crushing counterattacks would fit perfectly to his looks and style of play! Someone also suggested that he should have better accessibility to Longarm, i think that would also be great.

RenegadeTX2000
06-18-2018, 06:54 PM
lawbringer can have things when he loses shove on block.

NHLGoldenKnight
06-18-2018, 07:57 PM
Crushing counterattacks would fit perfectly to his looks and style of play! Someone also suggested that he should have better accessibility to Longarm, i think that would also be great.

I don't think it could work because of type of his weapon. When he blocks, he uses middle part of his pole and based on animations, it would be extremely hard to make his counter crush remotely believable. It is just hard to visualize.
On the other hand, hyperarmor woud be easier upgrade, but after he connects few strikes. I always hate how Berserker has hyper armor, he would be more believable having counter crush (1 axe blocks the other one strikes). I would take away hyper from Berserker, give it to Lawbringer and add counter crush on Berserker. But that's just me.

Music_4_Therapy
06-22-2018, 09:56 PM
I enjoy reading posts like this, and the new characters excite me. I believe Tiandi will wind up in either high B or low A tier in duels and Shaolin will certainly be S tier, although with a high skillcap... which is awesome. They've learned a lot since their last batch of new characters and that has been reflected by the high quality of recent reworks and this upcoming batch of characters.

It makes me very excited about future reworks, there are other games where I dread reworks because I have zero confidence in their dev teams. Just look at Conqueror, Kensei, Peacekeeper, Orochi, Berserker, and the 2 new characters. Very excited about what's to come with Valkyrie, Warden, and Lawbringer.