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NHLGoldenKnight
06-12-2018, 08:30 PM
Ok, I have to admit that new faction looks interesting. I did stop playing this game because of balance related issues, but I am planning on coming back in October.

However, new warriors reminded me that we still don't have classic spearman in the game. Yes, Valkyrie is there but I am not sure that weapon she is using is actual spear. I can't remember correct name for that weapon, but even if some would call it a spear, Valkyrie as a hero is in a bad shape now. And it is a gender locked hero which doesn't help.

Now, being that spear is arguably most wide spread weapon of ancient times ( Europe, Africa, Asia, North America) and that it was used for such a long period of time ( some say first examples of wooden spears go back 400 000 years!), would it be appropriate for us to expect or request classic spearman in the future updates? Do you guys already have some plans or not?

Personally, I don't mind if you go for Spartan although I would prefer medieval foot soldier armed with spear more than Spartan, but that is just me. Whatever you decide, I really hope we get to see real spearman, as Vanguard, because currently spear as a weapon is completely ignored.

Opinions?

UbiJurassic
06-12-2018, 08:36 PM
We're certainly open to the suggestions of players for new spear-based heroes! We make sure to get popular suggestions along to the team, who always enjoys hearing new ideas from players. Spartans have maintained a high level of popularity from players since the game's release and has certainly been forwarded to the team for their consideration.

As for Valkyrie, the team is currently looking at improvements for the hero, but not ETA on when changes will be coming in-game for her.

CandleInTheDark
06-12-2018, 08:42 PM
Gladiator has a trident and buckler which is fairly similar to the point that what people posted for what they wanted out of a spartan is pretty close to what he does.

I never get why the gender locked thing matters to people, especially in cases where Ubisoft has used specific lore, as someone into my mythology a male Valkyrie would be plain wrong and insulting to the culture they drew from. This isn't really a roleplay game, it all feels like people asking the Streetfighter devs to put in a male Chun Li or Cammy or Tekken a male Nina.

NHLGoldenKnight
06-12-2018, 10:22 PM
Gladiator has a trident and buckler which is fairly similar to the point that what people posted for what they wanted out of a spartan is pretty close to what he does.

I never get why the gender locked thing matters to people, especially in cases where Ubisoft has used specific lore, as someone into my mythology a male Valkyrie would be plain wrong and insulting to the culture they drew from. This isn't really a roleplay game, it all feels like people asking the Streetfighter devs to put in a male Chun Li or Cammy or Tekken a male Nina.

Well, I disagree with you on couple points.

1.First of all, whoever feels like Gladiator is a good replacement for spearman, knows very little about acient martial arts, weaponry and history. Trident as a weapon was very ineffective and there is a reason why it was used in arena but not really at the battlefield. Also, because you already mentioned Gladiator, he is the only hero that absolutely doesn't belong in any of existing factions. Gladiators were mainly slaves fighting in arena for their masters. Ubisoft really made a huge mistake by putting Gladiator in the game. If we ever ger Mercenary faction, I would prefer for Gladiator to be moved there and replaced by actual knight or ancient equivalent to a knight.

2. I do not have any issues with Valkyrie being gender locked. However, if someone is to try and roleplay spearman by using Valkyrie, it is extremely hard to get into character. Not just because it is a woman, but because of limited armor selection as well. Also, Ubisoft take on Vikings is already insult to real Vikings and all Scandinavia. Nowhere near to how they should look like.

Anyway, my main point is that we don't have real spearman, despite the fact that spear is probably most commonly used melee weapon ever. Also, there is a lot famous spearmen units, from ancient Greek and Spartans, across Franks, Saxons, Zulu tribes, early English spearmen and Scots as well.

I am just sorry I can remember how Valkyrie's weapon is called in real life, but I am pretty sure it isn't traditional spear. Anyways. ...

Halvtand
06-12-2018, 11:01 PM
Well, I disagree with you on couple points.

1.First of all, whoever feels like Gladiator is a good replacement for spearman, knows very little about acient martial arts, weaponry and history. Trident as a weapon was very ineffective and there is a reason why it was used in arena but not really at the battlefield. Also, because you already mentioned Gladiator, he is the only hero that absolutely doesn't belong in any of existing factions. Gladiators were mainly slaves fighting in arena for their masters. Ubisoft really made a huge mistake by putting Gladiator in the game. If we ever ger Mercenary faction, I would prefer for Gladiator to be moved there and replaced by actual knight or ancient equivalent to a knight.

2. I do not have any issues with Valkyrie being gender locked. However, if someone is to try and roleplay spearman by using Valkyrie, it is extremely hard to get into character. Not just because it is a woman, but because of limited armor selection as well. Also, Ubisoft take on Vikings is already insult to real Vikings and all Scandinavia. Nowhere near to how they should look like.

Anyway, my main point is that we don't have real spearman, despite the fact that spear is probably most commonly used melee weapon ever. Also, there is a lot famous spearmen units, from ancient Greek and Spartans, across Franks, Saxons, Zulu tribes, early English spearmen and Scots as well.

I am just sorry I can remember how Valkyrie's weapon is called in real life, but I am pretty sure it isn't traditional spear. Anyways. ...

So I was going to write out a reply for this, but as it got a bit long I decided to do the TL;DR-version instead.
Truth of the day: For Honor is not a historically accurate game. It has never claimed to be one.
I have no idea what your argument about gladiators mainly being slaves have to do with anything - see truth of the day.
Roleplaying spearman? I'm sorry, but For Honor isn't an RPG.
Nothing about the viking faction is an insult to anyone. This is an interpretation, not a depiction, of vikings in a world where a war can last for 1000 years and still keep going. Realism isn't a key word here.
Yes, every culture known today have used spears in some capacity for hunting or killing each other (mostly both). But this is a game, and not a historically accurate one. Had this game tried to be historically accurate every faction would have a spear-toting soldier. The problem is that spear-fighting looks the same no matter who's holding the weapon, and so having three (four now) identical characters would be extremely boring. They instead created one spear-wielder, based it on a mythological female warrior-being and here we are.
Last but not least, the Valkyrie in this game is using a spear. A rather simple one too.

NHLGoldenKnight
06-13-2018, 03:16 AM
You are so wrong on many levels, not sure where to begin.

Everyone knows it is just a game, and not even historically based one. However, it is a game based on melee combat and martial arts. Rules of physics and logic should still apply. No kitchen knife should be able to block pole axe for example. Or no Raider should be running around naked in a land of snow and ice.

Guys like you make me think that even if Ubisoft would come out with some kind of robot armed with lasers, you would find a way to justify that because game is not historically accurate?

I am not sure why you said that adding one spearman would make it 4 spearmen total? Only warrior remotely having to do anything with the spear is Valkyrie. And she has issues. ( still pretty sure her weapon is different from traditional spear, gender locked and in pretty bad shape right now)

Also, I disagree that same or similar weapon makes heroes feel same. Look how many swords we have, yet every hero feels different than the other one. Because what differentiates one hero from the other is his unique identy, background as well as moveset and appearance.

Just to make things clear, I am not supporting new hero because I want spearman. I could care less since I almost exclusively play with swords. However, I see opportunity for adding one traditional spearman since that weapon and fighting style wasn't explored a lot in the past.

Only other major weapons that are missing from the game are probably war hammer and mace.

CandleInTheDark
06-13-2018, 03:38 AM
Um not a traditional spear? compare and contrast

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/for-honor/images/9/97/For_Honor2017-11-16-21-42-45.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20180114133111

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/shield-spear-12429935.jpg

Hey let's see what art shows us

https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1xaZ1LFXXXXb5aXXXq6xXFXXXW/Living-room-bedroom-home-wall-decoration-fabric-poster-art-wings-Valkyrie-warrior-Viking-arrows-battle-spear.jpg_640x640.jpg

They all look pretty similar to me.

As for the rest of the issues, Valkyrie is getting a rework, the devs have said they are working on that. As for genderlocked, this is a fighter, not a roleplay game, if I want a fast kicker in street fighter I don't ask the devs to make a male Chun Li, if I want a boxer in tekken I don't pester them for a female Steve Fox, people can either choose to use the character with a spear or they can choose not to but the devs made their choice with Valkyrie and knowingly went with something that was female specific, all the bellyaching from the 'we shouldn't have females in games' crowd isn't going to change that.

Helnekromancer
06-13-2018, 04:44 AM
I've been asking for a two-handed spear user for the longest time, but the Wu Lin don't have that, the closest is the Shaolin, maybe when the Wu Lin get their other 2 Heroes they will get a two-handed spear user?

Valkyrie only uses her Spear with one hand and uses it pretty ineffectively since her shield holds her back all she really does with it is trusts. There is alot of things you can do with the spear with it's your primary weapon, hopefully we can see it in the future. I mean you can look at Dynasty Warriors or better yet Nioh for example and see different ways to use a spear. I'm not saying just copy from Nioh but taking inspiration from it and making something new and creative because right now long range weapons in this game is a joke when some short stack with dual weapons dash into your face and dump a flurry of hits into you.

SanaMinatozaki-
06-13-2018, 04:51 AM
I've been asking for a two-handed spear user for the longest time, but the Wu Lin don't have that, the closest is the Shaolin, maybe when the Wu Lin get their other 2 Heroes they will get a two-handed spear user?

Valkyrie only uses her Spear with one hand and uses it pretty ineffectively since her shield holds her back all she really does with it is trusts. There is alot of things you can do with the spear with it's your primary weapon, hopefully we can see it in the future. I mean you can look at Dynasty Warriors or better yet Nioh for example and see different ways to use a spear. I'm not saying just copy from Nioh but taking inspiration from it and making something new and creative because right now long range weapons in this game is a joke when some short stack with dual weapons dash into your face and dump a flurry of hits into you.

Hi Sir,

:p

http://www.koeitecmoamerica.com/dw9/images/characters/shoku/zoom/chouun.jpghttps://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/dynastywarriors/images/b/b7/Zhang_Fei_%28DW9%29.png

Helnekromancer
06-13-2018, 05:01 AM
Hi Sir,

:p

http://www.koeitecmoamerica.com/dw9/images/characters/shoku/zoom/chouun.jpghttps://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/dynastywarriors/images/b/b7/Zhang_Fei_%28DW9%29.png

Yes gimme Zhao Yun or Jiang Wei, Zhang Fei is pretty much already in the game, well Zhang Fei's model with Guan Yu's weapon.

All they would be missing now is Dian Wei. or Zhang He.

ChampionRuby50g
06-13-2018, 07:35 AM
You are so wrong on many levels, not sure where to begin.

Everyone knows it is just a game, and not even historically based one. However, it is a game based on melee combat and martial arts. Rules of physics and logic should still apply. No kitchen knife should be able to block pole axe for example. Or no Raider should be running around naked in a land of snow and ice.

Guys like you make me think that even if Ubisoft would come out with some kind of robot armed with lasers, you would find a way to justify that because game is not historically accurate?

I am not sure why you said that adding one spearman would make it 4 spearmen total? Only warrior remotely having to do anything with the spear is Valkyrie. And she has issues. ( still pretty sure her weapon is different from traditional spear, gender locked and in pretty bad shape right now)

Also, I disagree that same or similar weapon makes heroes feel same. Look how many swords we have, yet every hero feels different than the other one. Because what differentiates one hero from the other is his unique identy, background as well as moveset and appearance.

Just to make things clear, I am not supporting new hero because I want spearman. I could care less since I almost exclusively play with swords. However, I see opportunity for adding one traditional spearman since that weapon and fighting style wasn't explored a lot in the past.

Only other major weapons that are missing from the game are probably war hammer and mace.

You’re right on the garden tools not been able to block a pole axe, but there is a little something called balance, which the devs have to take into account. Raider also isn’t exactly naked, has a bearskin or animal hide chest piece that looks pretty warm, so already you are over-exaggerating things.

Of course no one would justify robot lasers because this is medieval style combat, so if you’re gonna take that tone, why should any body even bother having a different opinion than yours, cause your so clearly right and all, besides you completely deflected his point into something extreme. Try rebutting with something that is actually relevant to the game, not “robot lasers”.

Valkyrie does use a spear. It’s as simple as that, it seems like you are just coming up with things to justify it to yourself why you can’t play a female warrior. If it’s an issue she is genderlocked, that might just be a problem with you and not the game.
You also contradict yourself and show how hypocritical you are in two comments.

“ I do not have any issues with Valkyrie being gender locked”

“And she has issues...genderlocked”


As mentioned already, she is currently been re-worked and is almost 100% going to be the next reworked character.

Yes, there are plenty of swords. How many of them are the same? None. They are similar in name only. Different style of swords, different style of fighting. That should be obvious, but I guess you gotta spell it out for some people.

So no, he’s not really wrong at all. Nailed all his points, you are just failing to see past your own personal bias and ideas in your head. Broaden your mind a little.

Halvtand
06-13-2018, 12:48 PM
Everyone knows it is just a game, and not even historically based one. However, it is a game based on melee combat and martial arts. Rules of physics and logic should still apply. No kitchen knife should be able to block pole axe for example. Or no Raider should be running around naked in a land of snow and ice.
Yeah, when I read your reply I get the feeling that you’ve somehow purposefully misinterpreted everything I wrote since you leave out crucial factors in order to make a general assumption. I guess it was a mistake going for the short version after all. So here is a proper reply.
This part really doesn’t make any sense. See, here’s where your reasoning fails. You say that you understand that this is a game, but then hold up the rules of the real world over the in-game rules. Yes, in the real world a PK would not be able to stop a halberd in its tracks as they can with a parry within the game. Yes, in the real world a Raider would freeze his nipples off (and everyone else too for that matter). But this is a game, we’re not in the real world here, and different rules apply. Game rules trumph real world rules both when it comes to what can happen or exist in the world as long as they remain consistent. So a PK can parry a halberd, the Raider can not only run around in the snow without turning blue, but can also pick up the mighty Shugoki or heavily armoured Lawbringer and carry him, running, to the nearest cliff and drop them off without going along for the ride down. Shinobi can actually disappear for a moment as they double dash and hyperarmour, the fact that you can hit someone for full damage without them even flinching, exists.


Guys like you make me think that even if Ubisoft would come out with some kind of robot armed with lasers, you would find a way to justify that because game is not historically accurate?
This is either a straw-man argument or a slippery slope, Can’t really decide.
Game-rules trumphing real world rules is not an unlimited ticket to put whatever you want into the game (or leave whatever you want out of it). The game has a set tone, a world, characters, history and everything else. A robot would not make sense in the world of For Honor, nor would lasers. The existence of shinobi with his teleport is pushing the rules for a lot of people. This is because no other hero or NPC has even hinted at having a supernatural power like that.


I am not sure why you said that adding one spearman would make it 4 spearmen total? Only warrior remotely having to do anything with the spear is Valkyrie. And she has issues. (still pretty sure her weapon is different from traditional spear, gender locked and in pretty bad shape right now)
You’re not sure why we’d have four spearmen? Ok then, I’ll explain it again.
You yourself pointed out that many different cultures and warriors have used spears, most recently in this:

Anyway, my main point is that we don't have real spearman, despite the fact that spear is probably most commonly used melee weapon ever. Also, there is a lot famous spearmen units, from ancient Greek and Spartans, across Franks, Saxons, Zulu tribes, early English spearmen and Scots as well.
agree fully. Any human culture with access to a length of wood have found that making one end sharp creates the most simple yet formidable weapon we know of. Literally every culture we know about have used spears, it’s that good, and that’s not hyperbole. Following this pattern we can safely assume that every culture in the world of For honor have at some point discovered the spear as well. While only the Viking’s Valkyrie wields a proper spear, the halberd, trident and naginata builds upon the same premise and shares some functionality with this weapon class.
If For Honor was meant to portray these cultures even close to accurately, instead of interpreting them within the game’s world, that would mean that they all would need to have at least one hero using a spear. Four factions meaning four spearmen. I wrote this quite clearly in my short reply earlier:

Yes, every culture known today have used spears in some capacity for hunting or killing each other (mostly both). But this is a game, and not a historically accurate one. Had this game tried to be historically accurate every faction would have a spear-toting soldier.
We have a proper spear user, she’s called Valkyrie, her weapon is a very basic spear. There are different types of spears, and most of them are distinguished by adding or changing bits to them for added or differentiated functionality, but as you can see from the picture above hers is a stick, a sharp piece of metal and a counterweight. That is as basic as you can get in the metal age. You keep bringing up her gender lock as a problem even though you also say that it isn’t a problem, please make up your mind about that. And yes, she’s in dire need of a rework, but that doesn’t mean that she’s not a proper spear-wielder, that just means that the game’s balance is off.


Also, I disagree that same or similar weapon makes heroes feel same. Look how many swords we have, yet every hero feels different than the other one. Because what differentiates one hero from the other is his unique identy, background as well as moveset and appearance.
Alright, first let me fill you in on what you’ve missed:

The problem is that spear-fighting looks the same no matter who's holding the weapon
Please note that I mention a specific weapon and thus is not making a statement about any kind of weapon. The point here is about spears specifically. While it is a formidable weapon, it is also very boring to look at in action. It only has one attack – the poke. That’s it. As long as you poke, and have the enemy in poking-distance you’re doing it right. Sure, you can poke high, low, right, left and all that, but in the end you’re still doing the same poke. This is how everyone “from ancient Greek and Spartans, across Franks, Saxons, Zulu tribes, early English spearmen and Scots as well” and everyone else has used the spear. The guy holding the spear doesn’t matter as there is only one way of doing it right. If you take the sharp end out of your opponent’s face, you lose.
Boring is of course the carnal sin of action games and so the Valkyrie’s arsenal was extended to her approach interesting. Within the rules of the game, the wide one-handed heavy strikes of the Valkyrie works because weapon sweet-spots aren’t a thing (and she apparently has wrists made of hardened steel). Much like the Valkyrie herself, this is a way of fighting with a spear we only find in fiction. It is within the realm of suspended disbelief, though, so it’s fine.
Since there is only one way of successfully using a spear there is a very limited number of ways to make in a bit more interesting, in the case of Valkyrie she has her heavy attacks and her sweep. Anything else? Is there any other way of making such a simplistic and straight-forward weapon interesting while still staying within the realm of suspended disbelief?
This is why we only have one hero with a spear. Because having even just one more would give us a practically identical character in a game that very obviously wants different characters. The only way to make a spear-user different from Valyrie is to use the spear in a two-handed fashion. However, that basically makes the spear a staff (with one end sharper than the other), and with the reveal of our new faction we now know why such a character was never made. Staff-usage on the other hand is very different depending on who holds the thing and who you’re fighting, so there may be an opening for one more of those.
Now for the swords. We have a few of them, and they’re all made differently, from the gladius that was made specifically for stabbing (and to be used with a shield, but apparently shields aren’t cool) to the cutting one-handed sword of the Warlord to the slashing odachi of the Kensei or daitou of Orochi and Aramusha to the more all-purpose longsword of the Warden and so on. Hell, lets throw in the Tiandi’s cleaving dadao while we’re at it. They are all designed differently, from different cultures with a different kind of user, fighting style and opponent in mind. This matters with a sword as you need a sword that can combat your opponents armour, weapon and fighting style while still working with your own.
You don’t have to worry about that with the spear as stabbing someone from outside their range will always be the same regardless of your or their style of fighting. Their choice of weapon only really matters if they out-range you or are able to grab your spear in some way (in which case you’re F-ed). Their armour only matters a little, as all armour has gaps and hitting those might vary in difficulty, with unarmoured or insufficiently armoured opponents you can stab everything.


Just to make things clear, I am not supporting new hero because I want spearman. I could care less since I almost exclusively play with swords. However, I see opportunity for adding one traditional spearman since that weapon and fighting style wasn't explored a lot in the past.
Well, you have made a thread about having a spearman in the game and quite a few arguments for it. Now you back off saying you don’t care if we get one or not? (also the phrase is “couldn’t care less”, if you could care less you probably would). Hopefully, by this point I’ve made it abundantly clear that one hero with a spear is quite enough to cover the spear’s fighting style. It wasn’t explored much because there really isn’t anything else to see apart from a stand fast-move to be used as a counter against rush-attacks:

https://youtu.be/rdlL65LD6I4?t=1m43s


Only other major weapons that are missing from the game are probably war hammer and mace.
Indeed. So far the game has focused on different types of edged weaponry with the exceptions of Conqueror’s spiked ball on a chain and Shugoki’s club (and now Shaolin’s staff). We do however have a few axes with Berserker, Shaman and Raider and if you think about it these weapon types works in pretty much the same way. So the reasoning behind not including warhammers or maces might be that they would look too much like existing characters/weapons. I am, however, fully prepared to support you in asking for a hero with this type of weapon as I am sure we could do something interesting and fun with it.

Sabrefalcon
06-13-2018, 07:02 PM
Yes the chinese factions is coming out chinese also have a very good spearmen like the three kingdoms Zhao Yun type.