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VW-IceFire
02-14-2006, 05:57 PM
I'm curious to know, from the experts on the Zero and their representation in the game, what the difference between the A6M5 and the A6M5a is. One is considered a 1943 and the other is a 1944 variant, but I cannot see any obvious differences externally, or in armament, or in overall performance. Infact the only difference I can find is that one has a grey coloured cowling while the other has a black one.

I realize the A6M5 originally appeared in FB 1.22 with the Pacific Islands map and that the A6M5a appeared in Pacific Fighters but beyond that I don't know. Details? I'm interested and curious when I goto the Marianas campaign that I'm working on in the background.

VW-IceFire
02-14-2006, 05:57 PM
I'm curious to know, from the experts on the Zero and their representation in the game, what the difference between the A6M5 and the A6M5a is. One is considered a 1943 and the other is a 1944 variant, but I cannot see any obvious differences externally, or in armament, or in overall performance. Infact the only difference I can find is that one has a grey coloured cowling while the other has a black one.

I realize the A6M5 originally appeared in FB 1.22 with the Pacific Islands map and that the A6M5a appeared in Pacific Fighters but beyond that I don't know. Details? I'm interested and curious when I goto the Marianas campaign that I'm working on in the background.

hamselv2
02-14-2006, 06:20 PM
From Neural Dream's Aircraft reference guide:

A6M5: nose - 2x7.7mm Type97 MG (500rpg/33sec), wings - 2x20mm Type99 cannon (100rpg/11sec).

A6M5a: nose - 2x7.7mm Type97 MG (1000rpg/33sec), wings - 2x20mm Type99 cannon (125rpg/14sec).

In the game I think that the A6M5 turns slightly faster than the A6M5a that turns slightly faster than the A6M5b

tigertalon
02-14-2006, 07:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hamselv2:
A6M5: nose - 2x7.7mm Type97 MG (500rpg/33sec),
A6M5a: nose - 2x7.7mm Type97 MG (1000rpg/33sec),
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The same gun on A6M5 fire rather slow compared to one on A6M5a...

Dunno bout MG ammo, but cannon ammo should be increased from 100 to 125 shells. (didn't test this in game). A6M5a should also have a bit thicker wing skinning, alowing the plane to dive faster, but, naturaly, taking away a bit of it's maneuverability. However, in PF A6M5 and A6M5a seem to dive equally.

WWSensei
02-14-2006, 09:16 PM
Not my specific field of expertise, but offhand it looks as if one has an 'a' in its name and the other doesn't....but that's conjecture and I bow to the experts in typing to correct me...

J_Anonymous
02-14-2006, 09:43 PM
I have a Japanese book written in 1951(?) by Mr. Jiro Horikoshi about A6 Zero. He was the young, lead designer of A6 Zero in Mitsubishi Heavy Industries ("M" of "A6M"). He was also initially responsible for designing J2M3 Raiden from 1939, too, until he handed down the project to somebody even younger (My understanding is that Mr. Horikoshi was stressed out because IJN kept making unrealistic demands to improve Zero, while pushing for a new project of an interceptor which later became J2M3, while demanding yet another figher plane A7 Reppu....). I am on the road now and don't have access to the book, but will post some details in a few days. There is a comparison chart in his book (the capacity of fuel tank, pilot and fuel tank protection and all those), with his own comments about each model. My recollection is that A6M5a had some improvement, but he concluded A6M5 b and c were too heavy and failures. Give me a couple of days....

GoToAway
02-14-2006, 10:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by J_Anonymous:
I have a Japanese book written in 1951(?) by Mr. Jiro Horikoshi about A6 Zero. He was the young, lead designer of A6 Zero in Mitsubishi Heavy Industries ("M" of "A6M"). He was also initially responsible for designing J2M3 Raiden from 1939, too, until he handed down the project to somebody even younger (My understanding is that Mr. Horikoshi was stressed out because IJN kept making unrealistic demands to improve Zero, while pushing for a new project of an interceptor which later became J2M3, while demanding yet another figher plane A7 Reppu....). I am on the road now and don't have access to the book, but will post some details in a few days. There is a comparison chart in his book (the capacity of fuel tank, pilot and fuel tank protection and all those), with his own comments about each model. My recollection is that A6M5a had some improvement, but he concluded A6M5 b and c were too heavy and failures. Give me a couple of days.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Was this book ever translated to English? Sounds interesting.

money_money
02-15-2006, 01:36 AM
In 'HardBall's Aircraft Viewer'

under Advantages:
the A6M5
- Improved diving charactertistics due to strengthened wing; Maximum dive speed now 660 km/h

and the A6M5a
- Diving speed improved again due to further wing strengthening; Maximum dive speed now 740 km/h

rugame
02-15-2006, 01:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hamselv2:
From Neural Dream's Aircraft reference guide:

A6M5: nose - 2x7.7mm Type97 MG (500rpg/33sec), wings - 2x20mm Type99 cannon (100rpg/11sec).

A6M5a: nose - 2x7.7mm Type97 MG (1000rpg/33sec), wings - 2x20mm Type99 cannon (125rpg/14sec).

In the game I think that the A6M5 turns slightly faster than the A6M5a that turns slightly faster than the A6M5b </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only real difference i could find was that the 5a had a modified wing to accept belt fed cannon. Both had the same Sakae 21 with the individual exhaust ejectors.

The 5a should perform marginally better then the 5b, as this model had one of its 7.7mm sub'd for a 13.2mm in the cowling (Only the 13.2mm is seen ingame, So we are down on firepower,Still after all this time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif(Was brought to Oleg's attention when it first came into the game). It also added armoured glass in the cockpit canopy, so the 5b is a bit heavier.

Draughluin1
02-15-2006, 02:30 AM
The A6M5, model 52a was an attempt to boost firepower & dive capability. As said earlier, thicker wing skinning and 25 more rounds for each 20mm. Should allow the 52a an increase of dive speed from 660 to 740km/h. Came at the expense of a slight drop in level speed. 391 built fron March, 1944. Big changes made on the 52b, about June, 1944, 470 built. 52c in September, 1944 with 93 built (a failure). Thereafter, the A6M7, models 62 & 63's.

J_Anonymous
02-15-2006, 07:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GoToAway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by J_Anonymous:
I have a Japanese book written in 1951(?) by Mr. Jiro Horikoshi about A6 Zero. He was the young, lead designer of A6 Zero in Mitsubishi Heavy Industries ("M" of "A6M"). He was also initially responsible for designing J2M3 Raiden from 1939, too, until he handed down the project to somebody even younger (My understanding is that Mr. Horikoshi was stressed out because IJN kept making unrealistic demands to improve Zero, while pushing for a new project of an interceptor which later became J2M3, while demanding yet another figher plane A7 Reppu....). I am on the road now and don't have access to the book, but will post some details in a few days. There is a comparison chart in his book (the capacity of fuel tank, pilot and fuel tank protection and all those), with his own comments about each model. My recollection is that A6M5a had some improvement, but he concluded A6M5 b and c were too heavy and failures. Give me a couple of days.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Was this book ever translated to English? Sounds interesting. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
My recollection is that he said in the foreword of the book that a version of the book was translated into English (Not necessarily the full volume, though, as Saburo Sakai's book "Samurai" was not translated in full). I think a lot of people (both in the U.S. and Japan) considered A6M as an engineering accomplishment of late 1930's --- although A6M burns and evapolate within a split second in this game! I think there was also a co-author (Mr. Okumiya, I think, not sure) who was a top IJN a/c engineer or something. I don't know where you live, but major national libraries may have a copy. I will find out the precise English title of the book and post it here in a few days.

VW-IceFire
02-15-2006, 08:18 PM
Thanks guys...that does clear up some things for me. So the differences are actually quite minimal but important enough...

Do both A6M5 and A6M5a have Type 99-2 20mm cannons? Or does the A6M5 have the original Type 99-1?

rugame
02-16-2006, 12:42 AM
I could only find reference to type 99 canon.

JG53Frankyboy
02-16-2006, 04:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Thanks guys...that does clear up some things for me. So the differences are actually quite minimal but important enough...

Do both A6M5 and A6M5a have Type 99-2 20mm cannons? Or does the A6M5 have the original Type 99-1? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

same canon

J_Anonymous
02-17-2006, 09:48 AM
I am back.

The book "The Zero Fighter" I mentioned above was written by Jiro Horikoshi and Masatake Okumiya in 1952 in Japanese. Mr. Horikoshi was the chief designer of A6 series. My copy is a reprint in 1980's.

The book was published abroad in two parts.

The chapters about combats were translated into English and published in 1956 as "Zero!" by E.P. Dutton publishing, NY, and Casselle publishing, London. The French version was entitled "Les Ailes Japonaises en Guerre 1941-1945" by Presses de la Cite publishing, Paris. They don't say the Spanish title which apparently exists in the foreword of the Japanese version of the book.

Chapters about technical developments were translated and published in 1958 as "The zero Fighter" by Casselle publishing in London.

J_Anonymous
02-17-2006, 10:44 AM
Here are some comparison according to the table 21 in p-418 of the Japanese version of the book (softcover, published by PHP publishing, Kyoto). The notes and comments are by Mr. Horikoshi himself:

[A6M2b]
Wingspan 12.00 meters.
Wing area 22.44 meters^2.
Zuisei 12 engine, 950hp/4200meters.
Weight 1680 kg/ Full weight 2410 kg.
7.7mm x2, 20mm x2.
Armour protection for pilot, none.
Armour protection for fuel tanks, none.
Fire extinguisher, none.
maximum speed 288 knotts/4550meters.
climb speed 7'-27" to 6000meters.
First production 1940.
740 manufactured by Mitsubishi.
Notes: (1) Wing folding mechanisms installed for career operations. (2) From the 127th plane manufactured, a tab was installed that autimatically works when gears are down/up. (4) Maximum dive speed 340 knotts.
Comments (by the authors, same below) : "Most kills were made by tis model at the beginning of the war. All performance in this table was measured with 92 Octane fuel with the maximum weight."

[A6M3]
Wingspan 11.00 meters.
Wing area 21.53 meters^2.
Sakae 21 engine, 1100 hp/2850meters, 980 hp/6000 meters.
Weight 1807kg/ Full weight 2644 kg.
7.7mm x2, 20mm x2.
Armour protection for pilot, none.
Armour protection for fuel tanks, none.
Fire extinguisher, none.
maximum speed 294 knotts/6000 meters.
climb speed 7'-19" to 6000meters.
First production July 1941.
343manufactured by Mitsubishi.
Notes: (1) two stage turbo charger installed, (2) To move fire shield wall to the rear by 185 mm, the capacity of fuel tank in the feselage was reduced from 140 liters to 60 liters. (3) Wingtip was cut to make manufacturing easier. (4) Ailron balance tab abolished. (5) Maximum dive speed 360 knotts.
Comments : "Excellent performance in the early half of the pacific conflict with many kills."

[A6M5]
Wingspan 11.00 meters.
Wing area 21.30 meters^2.
Sakae 21 engine, 1100 hp/2850meters, 980 hp/6000 meters.
Weight 1807kg/ Full weight 2644 kg.
7.7mm x2, 20mm x2.
Armour protection for pilot, none.
Armour protection for fuel tanks, none.
Fire extinguisher installed for wing fuel tanks.
maximum speed 305 knotts/6000 meters.
climb speed 7'-19" to 6000meters.
First production summer 1943.
743 manufactured by Mitsubishi.
Notes: (1) Wing-floding system abolished (after re-installed in A6M3a). (2) Engine exaust combined into one to gain boost. (3) Wider flaps, ailron reduced, trim tab is simplfied. (4)Fire extinguisher for wings were installed at some point, then retr-fitted to earlrier productions. (5) Maximum dive speed 360 knotts.
Comments : "Because of the poor cockpit view of J2 Raiden, manufacturing of this model was enhanced and continued. Most numerous among all models."

[A6M5a]
Wingspan 11.00 meters.
Wing area 21.30 meters^2.
Sakae 21 engine, 1100 hp/2850meters, 980 hp/6000 meters.
Weight 1894 kg/ Full weight 2743 kg.
7.7mm x2, 20mm x2.
Armour protection for pilot, none.
Armour protection for fuel tanks, none.
Fire extinguisher installed for wing fuel tanks.
maximum speed 305 knotts/6000 meters.
climb speed 7'-1" to 6000meters.
First test fall 1943, prodcution from March 1944.
391 manufactured by Mitsubishi.
Notes: (1) 20 mm type-II cannons with type-4 belt bullet feeding system introduced. Ammo load increased to 125 each for both cannons. (2) Wing redesigned for (1). (3) Later models had 0.2 mm thicker metal surface of the wing, and maximum dive speed increased to 400 knotts.
Comments : "Needed to increase dive performance and more ammo."


[A6M5b]
Wingspan 11.00 meters.
Wing area 21.30 meters^2.
Sakae 21 engine, 1100 hp/2850meters, 980 hp/6000 meters.
Weight (not specified in table)
7.7mm x1, 13mm x1, 20mm x2.
Armour protection for pilot, bullet proof glass.
Armour protection for fuel tanks, none.
Fire extinguisher installed for both wing and fuselage fuel tanks.
Prodcution from April 1944.
470 manufactured by Mitsubishi.
Notes: (1) 13 mm has 230 ammo. (3) Automated fire-extinguisher installed.
Comments : "Needs for pilot protection and enhanced firepower."

[A6M5c]
13.3 mm x3 and 20 mm x 2.
Small bomb-rocket.
Pilot protecion by bullett proof glass and steel sheets.
Bulett protection for fuselage fuel tank introduced.
Automatic fire extinguisher only for wing fuel tanks.
First manufacturing in September 1944.
Notes: (2) 13 mm Mg added in wings. (2) Steel sheets behind pilots. (3) Two racks for bomb-rockets attached to each of the wing. (4) New 140 liter fuel tank behind the pilot sheat, with inner leak shield. (6) Fuselage fuel tank in front of pilot abolished.
Comments: it was speculated that with more bullet proof mechanisms and fire power, A6 gain edge against F6F, but increased weight resulted in poorer performance.

[A6M7]
Notes : (2) 250kg bomb rack attached under fuselage. (3) external tank was divided into 150 liters x2, attached underneath wings.
Comments : 250 kg bombs for the purpose of "special attack (Kamikaze)". New external tanks in case the Kamikaze planes do not conduct attacks and need to return base.

VW-IceFire
02-19-2006, 10:59 AM
Aha...so they did install the 99-2 cannon in between the two versions. So the A6M5a should have quite a bit of extra punch...which I have been wondering after experiencing different damage effects between the two types of aircraft.

Fascinating. Thanks!

Browning50cal
02-20-2006, 06:36 AM
Sweet, Anybody wanna try one out? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Sakai_Campaign2.0 at airwarfare.com (http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/FB/fb_campaigns.htm#051)

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/6543/iwo29sm.jpg

B50

JG53Frankyboy
02-20-2006, 06:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Aha...so they did install the 99-2 cannon in between the two versions. So the A6M5a should have quite a bit of extra punch...which I have been wondering after experiencing different damage effects between the two types of aircraft.

Fascinating. Thanks! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the Typ 99 Mk.2 canon was introduced with the A6M3 Model 22a . they "just" changed in the A6M5 Model 52a from a drum-fed to a belt-fed version. the canon itself was the same.

nakamura_kenji
02-20-2006, 07:12 AM
.................caliber.......fire rate....round speed...gun weight
Type 99-I....20 x 72RB...490rpm......555 m/s.......23 kg
Type 99-II...20 x 101RB..490/750rpm..750 m/s.....36 kg

type-99-I drum magazine
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/nakamura_kenji/Type99mod1-s.jpg

type-99-II drum magazine
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/nakamura_kenji/N-99-23Gun.jpg

type-99-II belt magazine
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/nakamura_kenji/Type99mod2-600.jpg

also belt magazine type-99-I no find picture

J_Anonymous
02-20-2006, 08:07 AM
I remember reading in Saburo Sakai's book "Samurai" (the Japanese edition, or possibly in Jiro Horikoshi's book) that the front line pilots complained about the low speed of 20mm cannons in earlier models. They had difficulties in killing B17, and the moral of IJN fighter pilots went down. So engineers hastily worked on improving the initial ammo speed of 20mm cannon, hence longer nozzle, as shown in Kenji's image.

Nearly 50% higher initial speed means twice more initial energy each cannon ammo had to travel longer distance and punch through the opponent's aircraft. Correct me if I am wrong, but the tip of the nozzle of the 99-II 20mm cannons stick out from the wing, while 99-I is entirely inside the wing. J2M3 had 2 of 99-I and 2 of 99-II, and indeed it is modeled that way in this sim. But on the other hand, A6M5 also has two 20mm nozzles sticking out from the wing.... Does Oleg mean 99-II were retrofitted, I guess?

I don't know if the ammo themselves were improved, does anybody know?

Saunders1953
02-20-2006, 08:37 AM
Where can I find Neural Dream's guide? I've been looking for a reference that will give me the number of seconds a particular aircraft can fire its guns, instead of testing out each one myself.

Thanks.

JG53Frankyboy
02-20-2006, 08:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by J_Anonymous:
I remember reading in Saburo Sakai's book "Samurai" (the Japanese edition, or possibly in Jiro Horikoshi's book) that the front line pilots complained about the low speed of 20mm cannons in earlier models. They had difficulties in killing B17, and the moral of IJN fighter pilots went down. So engineers hastily worked on improving the initial ammo speed of 20mm cannon, hence longer nozzle, as shown in Kenji's image.

Nearly 50% higher initial speed means twice more initial energy each cannon ammo had to travel longer distance and punch through the opponent's aircraft. Correct me if I am wrong, but the tip of the nozzle of the 99-II 20mm cannons stick out from the wing, while 99-I is entirely inside the wing. J2M3 had 2 of 99-I and 2 of 99-II, and indeed it is modeled that way in this sim. But on the other hand, A6M5 also has two 20mm nozzles sticking out from the wing.... Does Oleg mean 99-II were retrofitted, I guess?

I don't know if the ammo themselves were improved, does anybody know? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

as i already said: the long barrel Typ 99 Mk.2 canon was already introduced in the Model 22a (wich we have not in game, unfortunatly)!
so, the Model 52 had them too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Saunders1953
02-20-2006, 10:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Where can I find Neural Dream's guide? I've been looking for a reference that will give me the number of seconds a particular aircraft can fire its guns, instead of testing out each one myself.

Thanks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Never mind, found it at Airwarfare.

rugame
02-20-2006, 03:07 PM
I just wish OM and team would fix the A6m5b weapon loadout....

We should whine like all the 190 and Mustang guys do...

I happen to use the MG's on the Zero as how IJN pilots used them, as range finders for the 20's.
Beinmg short some lead is an issue, regardless of the calibre.



But like its going to happen..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

VW-IceFire
02-20-2006, 03:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rugame:
I just wish OM and team would fix the A6m5b weapon loadout....

We should whine like all the 190 and Mustang guys do...

I happen to use the MG's on the Zero as how IJN pilots used them, as range finders for the 20's.
Beinmg short some lead is an issue, regardless of the calibre.



But like its going to happen..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I remember there was a problem with the A6M5b...but I can't remember what it was....

Missing 7.7mm?

sledgehammer2
02-20-2006, 03:57 PM
I really love the Zero... I wish we would get the Model 22. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Regards,
Sledgehammer2

JG53Frankyboy
02-20-2006, 05:14 PM
Model 22 would be a blast http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
not much slower than a Model 32 , near as manouverable than a Model 21 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

rugame
02-20-2006, 06:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rugame:
I just wish OM and team would fix the A6m5b weapon loadout....

We should whine like all the 190 and Mustang guys do...

I happen to use the MG's on the Zero as how IJN pilots used them, as range finders for the 20's.
Beinmg short some lead is an issue, regardless of the calibre.



But like its going to happen..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I remember there was a problem with the A6M5b...but I can't remember what it was....

Missing 7.7mm? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats the one. most people think its minor, but you take away a 50 of the stang or a 13mm cowl MG of the 190 and see the whine come out of the cellar

Browning50cal
02-21-2006, 03:36 AM
If I remember correctly, the A6M5b is not missing anything. It has one of the 7.7's removed from the cowl, and 2 13mm guns added to the wings. Check out the post earlier in the thread of all the differing armaments and engines of some of the Zero types. I find in almost every instance the game is in accordance with these specifications.

In my Zero I use the 7.7mm guns to kill. If I feel like watching a wing or some other surface fly off, I'll loose a few 20's.

B50

nakamura_kenji
02-21-2006, 03:37 AM
collect info,picture,scan ect i email oleg if want?

JG53Frankyboy
02-21-2006, 04:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Browning50cal:
If I remember correctly, the A6M5b is not missing anything. It has one of the 7.7's removed from the cowl, and 2 13mm guns added to the wings. Check out the post earlier in the thread of all the differing armaments and engines of some of the Zero types. I find in almost every instance the game is in accordance with these specifications.

...........B50 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you are thinking about the A6M5c actually.....


small "errors" in the ingame Zeros:

- A6M5b is missing its cowling mounted Typ 97 7,7mm gun

-the A6M5c Model 52c should have a Sakae 21 engine , not a Sakae 31 like in game. with its MW injection Sakae 31 its more a A6M6c Model 53c

-the Model63 and 62 have in game changed engines http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif .
the Model 63 should have the Sakae 31 with MW injection, not the Model 62 (should have Sakae 21).

- the both A6M7 are missing their most important loadoutoption : 1x 250kg Bomb + 2x 150l Droptank

J_Anonymous
02-22-2006, 07:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by J_Anonymous:
I remember reading in Saburo Sakai's book "Samurai" (the Japanese edition, or possibly in Jiro Horikoshi's book) that the front line pilots complained about the low speed of 20mm cannons in earlier models. They had difficulties in killing B17, and the moral of IJN fighter pilots went down. So engineers hastily worked on improving the initial ammo speed of 20mm cannon, hence longer nozzle, as shown in Kenji's image.

Nearly 50% higher initial speed means twice more initial energy each cannon ammo had to travel longer distance and punch through the opponent's aircraft. Correct me if I am wrong, but the tip of the nozzle of the 99-II 20mm cannons stick out from the wing, while 99-I is entirely inside the wing. J2M3 had 2 of 99-I and 2 of 99-II, and indeed it is modeled that way in this sim. But on the other hand, A6M5 also has two 20mm nozzles sticking out from the wing.... Does Oleg mean 99-II were retrofitted, I guess?

I don't know if the ammo themselves were improved, does anybody know? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

as i already said: the long barrel Typ 99 Mk.2 canon was already introduced in the Model 22a (wich we have not in game, unfortunatly)!
so, the Model 52 had them too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes Sir. OK, I noticed that I made a mistake when I translated the table 21 from the book "The Zero Fighter" by the chief designer Mr. Horikoshi.

Since there is no Model 22 (that's how we generally call it in Japan) a.k.a. A6M3a in this game, I skipped the column for it. It goes something like this;

[A6M3a]
Wingspan 12.00 meters.
Wing area 22.44 meters^2.
Sakae 21 engine, 1100 hp/2850meters, 980 hp/6000 meters.
Weight 1863kg/ Full weight 2679/2710 kg.
7.7mm x2, 20mm x2.
Armour protection for pilot, none.
Armour protection for fuel tanks, none.
Fire extinguisher, none.
maximum speed 292 knotts/6000 meters.
First production Fall 1942.
560 manufactured by Mitsubishi.
Notes: (1) Wing-folding mechanism and the wing-span returned to the same as the previous model, (2) 2x 45 liter fuel tanks added to the outer part of the wing, (3)See Below, (4) Maximum dive speed was reduced to 340 knotts.
Comments : "Changes were made to enable the sqaud based in Rabaul provide escorts to the bombers."

Now, in the Note (3) where I filled with See Below, there is an incomplete sentence with abbreviations, which makes interpreting tricky. In Japanese (in case somebody else can read it), he wrote "yokunai kijyu wo 99 20mm 2-gou 3-gata ni sakanobotte henkoushi, 22-gata ko A6M3a to yonde kubetsu shi ta." This "sakanobotte" generally means "goes back in time and do something," while "henkoushi" means "modify". Thus he sounds like saying "20mm cannons in wings were replaced with 99-II model 3, and aircrafts manufactuered earlier were also retrofitted with the same. We called them "Model 22 Ko A6M3a" to distinguish."

That would be consistent with what Frankboy says. Since two sets of numbers are given to the total weight, 2679kg is probably for Model 22 (with 99-I?), amd 2710kg is Model 22 Ko with 99-II model 3 replacements. In fact, according to kenji above, the extra weight should be somewhat more than 26 kg (99-II is 13 kg heavier than 99-I). I also recall reading that 99-II were retrofitted because of pilots' request.

In the next column of the table is A6M5. And throughout this table, the author actually used "the same as the previous model" a lot to save space, and he said the cannons of A6M5 were "the same as the previous model." Givne that manufacturing of A6M5 began in summer 1943, I guess he means cannons are the same as Model 22 Ko, which means 20mm were 99-II model 3. That's consistent with the game.

I am sorry for confusion, because.... I am still confused. Since the chief designer wrote this book in 1952, his written Japanese is somewhat of an old style.

J_Anonymous
02-22-2006, 07:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
-the A6M5c Model 52c should have a Sakae 21 engine , not a Sakae 31 like in game. with its MW injection Sakae 31 its more a A6M6c Model 53c

-the Model63 and 62 have in game changed engines http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif .
the Model 63 should have the Sakae 31 with MW injection, not the Model 62 (should have Sakae 21).
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
According to the same table 21,

A6M5, A6M5a, A6M5b, A6M5c and A6M7 --- Sakae 21 engine.
A6M6c --- Sakae 31 engine.

Browning50cal
02-22-2006, 07:45 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Daiichidoku
02-25-2006, 04:38 PM
also A6M3 32 that we have in game has only 60 rds 20mm ammo

according to this site:http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/a6m.html

only the first 4 A6m# 32s had 60 rds, thereafter, all the the 343+ A6M3 32s made should have 100 rds 20mm ammo

JG53Frankyboy
02-27-2006, 10:03 AM
the last time (before version 4.03) i checked the ammo of the A6M3 (in game) , it had 100rounds...........

Skyraider3D
10-24-2006, 12:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
-the A6M5c Model 52c should have a Sakae 21 engine , not a Sakae 31 like in game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I may be mistaken, but I read somewhere that some A6M5c's were equipped with the Sakae 31. It didn't change the designation of the plane, though.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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KIMURA
10-24-2006, 12:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skyraider3D:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
-the A6M5c Model 52c should have a Sakae 21 engine , not a Sakae 31 like in game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I may be mistaken, but I read somewhere that some A6M5c's were equipped with the Sakae 31. It didn't change the designation of the plane, though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Sakae 31 was <span class="ev_code_RED">planned</span> for the Model 52 Hei but due to unreliability of the engine the Sakae 21 was used instead<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://mypage.bluewin.ch/a-z/kimura-hei/Ki1.jpg

JG53Frankyboy
10-24-2006, 04:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skyraider3D:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
-the A6M5c Model 52c should have a Sakae 21 engine , not a Sakae 31 like in game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I may be mistaken, but I read somewhere that some A6M5c's were equipped with the Sakae 31. It didn't change the designation of the plane, though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well, the "model Number" gives the information about main airframe (first number)and engine (second number) changes !

take the A6M2 Modell 11 as the first.

than the Model 21 had the change of the folding wingtips- counting as airframe change.

the Model 32 had also airfrmae changes, clipped wings, and an engine change , from Sakae 12 to Sakae 21.

Model 22, was back to the airframe of the A6M2 , but still had Sakae 21.

in that logic, you see, the Model 52c had Sakae 21 engine.

Model 53c ( A6M6c) and Model 63 had Sakae 31 with MW injection.

JG53Frankyboy
10-24-2006, 04:58 PM
anyway, has anyone reliable sources about the historical ammoload of the Zeros Typ 97 guns ?

not for a bugreport(no hope for any changrs anymore), just beeing curious.

as its already said here, the A6M5 is the only one with 500rpg, all others have 1000rpg in game.

VW-IceFire
10-24-2006, 09:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
anyway, has anyone reliable sources about the historical ammoload of the Zeros Typ 97 guns ?

not for a bugreport(no hope for any changrs anymore), just beeing curious.

as its already said here, the A6M5 is the only one with 500rpg, all others have 1000rpg in game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Becha the reason for the discrepancy is because the A6M5 was introduced into the game much earlier than any of the other models. It came in patch 1.21. A6M2 in AEP and the rest came in Pacific Fighters.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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