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No0b.Nr.1
06-06-2018, 11:11 PM
since I,m not really a fan of making attacks faster, unblockable, uninnteruptible to open turtles and i had to deal with this since DLC heroes began to come out.

Even if i think it will never be like this since Ubi would nt feel like it after a few reworks etc. but
AN idea : U have ur HP bar(red), STAMINA bar(green), And ur BLOCK bar(blue). If u get hits and block it , u will lose it, if u r out of block u will have just a short time to react or u will lose stamina very fast and your u will be oos. This just could make the game like not too crazy fast and most of people with lower reactions could still enjoy this game.It could work like if u block and attack in a short period of time , ur block bar will not get use, but if u stay and block like 3 or 4 or 5 attacks then , and if u get hits from many direction which u dont face then it shouldnt get empty neither. ( something like that, u can still work on it to make it better )

I mean i play for honor everyday like many hours, there is sadly not so many players like 1 year ago. Veterans still play it and will deal with everything Ubisoft do with this game more and less.

RenegadeTX2000
06-06-2018, 11:13 PM
Make heavies have more meaning when they are blocked...

give penalty to blocking heavies universally...

If you just do that... Game would be watchable.

Vakris_One
06-06-2018, 11:33 PM
since I,m not really a fan of making attacks faster, unblockable, uninnteruptible to open turtles and i had to deal with this since DLC heroes began to come out.

Even if i think it will never be like this since Ubi would nt feel like it after a few reworks etc. but
AN idea : U have ur HP bar(red), STAMINA bar(green), And ur BLOCK bar(blue). If u get hits and block it , u will lose it, if u r out of block u will have just a short time to react or u will lose stamina very fast and your u will be oos. This just could make the game like not too crazy fast and most of people with lower reactions could still enjoy this game.It could work like if u block and attack in a short period of time , ur block bar will not get use, but if u stay and block like 3 or 4 or 5 attacks then , and if u get hits from many direction which u dont face then it shouldnt get empty neither. ( something like that, u can still work on it to make it better )

I mean i play for honor everyday like many hours, there is sadly not so many players like 1 year ago. Veterans still play it and will deal with everything Ubisoft do with this game more and less.
Bit late in the game to fundamentally change the mechanics of blocking. Also fyi: there are way more players now than 1 year ago.



Make heavies have more meaning when they are blocked...

give penalty to blocking heavies universally...

If you just do that... Game would be watchable.
Yeah, problem with that is you can just parry the heavies and bob's your uncle. And heavies will always be easier to parry than lights. I'm no fan of the light spam meta, don't get me wrong, but there's nothing much you can buff about heavies that isn't basically put into the bin because parrying is a thing.

RenegadeTX2000
06-06-2018, 11:45 PM
Bit late in the game to fundamentally change the mechanics of blocking. Also fyi: there are way more players now than 1 year ago.



Yeah, problem with that is you can just parry the heavies and bob's your uncle. And heavies will always be easier to parry than lights. I'm no fan of the light spam meta, don't get me wrong, but there's nothing much you can buff about heavies that isn't basically put into the bin because parrying is a thing.

parry the heavy if you want to, but you can easily be baited into going for that and getting punished for it. It opens up possibilities already.

RenegadeTX2000
06-06-2018, 11:52 PM
If blocking heavies would create more chip dmg,

Slower reaction/cursor moving on blocking follow up attacks. Example being pre patch lawbringer, centurion, Raider. Season 1 blocking pretty much where you couldn't shuffle your block around like a maniac.

continuous heavy blocking in succession would be a slower reaction, more chip dmg build up and a slight reduction in stamina and pause.

1 parry regenerates all penalties of a block back to normal. or you can wait 5-10 seconds of the block penalty.

So if you block a heavy and you try and roll back to reset neutral, you would still suffer the stamina pause/reduction making the rollback more costly and putting pressure on your stamina gauge while still being in danger of more attack pressure.

It would help the game imo. it would be more about spacing and promote more heavy attacking. IN return promote more dodging and random attacks to beat out attempted heavies.

Balance would be, heavies are slow so you can easily react to them in your own way and getting a parry returns all penalties of block back to normal.

EDIT::

also one more thing i'd like to say is that if you block a heavy and you suffer that slower cursor to blocking everything, if you change direction to block you wouldn't be able to immediately dodge so characters like centurion, warlord, risky unblockables that are thrown out would be better used as a mix up if you are too focused on blocking after blocking a heavy.

In order to not fall for this is to actually block at the same time of the direction the opponent is attacking from, so don't just wiggle the block around like a maniac, actually time your block so you can also have an option to dodge as well so you don't lose your ability to immediately dodge.

RenegadeTX2000
06-06-2018, 11:58 PM
Characters like Lawbringer, Valkyrie, Shugoki, Shinobi, Raider, Warlord...

pretty much anyone with the ability to use opener heavy into a follow up light would benefit from this.

And characters with fast walk speed to avoid such an outcome, Shinobi especially could actually put that movement to amazing use.

Lawbringer could use range heavies to great benefit with his ability to follow up with a quick light or continous heavies...

and Raider... Raider throwing heavies for days. that man would be terrifying with that change lol. STunning tap at any moment... Raider would actually be good in 1v1's.


Centurion... He could actually be mix up intensive with his heavies! he could actually perform like how he was meant to perform.

Alustar.exe
06-07-2018, 12:33 AM
The best way to break up the spamming of any attacks would be to add in diminishing returns for attacks used repeatedly. I.e. if you only are using one combo back to back it would be progressively less effective after repeated use. I feel this should work for everything including crowd control maneuvers. So that this way the more varied your attacks are, the more damage you could do. I feel this would be effective for all levels of play, and possibly reduce some of the disparity between high level play and newer players

RenegadeTX2000
06-07-2018, 12:58 AM
The best way to break up the spamming of any attacks would be to add in diminishing returns for attacks used repeatedly. I.e. if you only are using one combo back to back it would be progressively less effective after repeated use. I feel this should work for everything including crowd control maneuvers. So that this way the more varied your attacks are, the more damage you could do. I feel this would be effective for all levels of play, and possibly reduce some of the disparity between high level play and newer players

I dunno, some characters have to heavily rely on 1 move to open up everything else available all leading back to that same 1 move...

Smash brothers has that system though with diminish return for the same attack being used. I dunno if I like it in a game like this though. You can parry... MAYBE if you add it into unblockables only, making it do less dmg or making stamina in general more cost effective then maybe? I dunno, if you can't control spamming then that's your fault. It's only a problem when your character doesn't have reliable answers to that spammable move. and for a game like this, every character should have the ability to fight any character.since it's skill based.

TuSkiLLd
06-07-2018, 03:09 AM
Why not just add the mechanic thats in STreet fighter too much blocking will result in a stun on exhaustion where you can then catch them with a guard break. They would then have to balance blocking dodging and parrying.

Camemberto
06-07-2018, 01:30 PM
Lights should be universally slower and not be interrupted when blocked, much like heavies are now. Also light parries should only guarantee lights now, since they are slower.
Blocking heavies should do chip damage and Parrying heavies should be like the superior block is now (interrupt chains) but nothing more (No guaranteed hits).
Parrying unblockables should still guarantee a light and unblockables should not be soft feintable anymore.

So much for that, I think that alone would unify balance between the characters and most importantly between the systems (console vs PC)

Additionally, to add to your suggestion:

I would like to see a sort of diminishing return system for each guard stance individually. Meaning if you block the same direction repeatedly, they will eventually break. Each guard direction will have four states:
- normal (white)
- weak (yellow) - 25% chip damage
- very weak (orange) - 50% chip damage
- gone (well...)
The guard state will decrease with each two lights or single heavy attack.
This means you can't just block forever and it also introduces a trade off for the attacker between trying to "break" the defense on one side or slipping through the defense by changing the side.

What do you think? Especially interested in thoughts about my first couple of suggestions :)

Alustar.exe
06-07-2018, 01:50 PM
I personally don't see any of those proposed changes being healthy for the game. Aside from the lights being able to allow a combo to persist, everything else seems like it would encourage mindless spamming of moves. Especially a degrading of blocking ability. Unblockables should maintain their ability to be feinted add that encourages mind games. All unblockables attacks are pretty easy to parry with even a little practice.

ThePollie
06-07-2018, 05:07 PM
Chip damage. That is it. Right now, chip damage is virtually nonexistent. You can safely block several top heavies without much issue, and you can't even be killed by it. If you took 40% or 50% of the damage when blocking, you would be more encouraged to try and risk a parry instead. Eating two blocked heavies is basically taking a heavy straight out. It would stop people from turtling safely with blocks, since you could be legitimately laid out by them.

Especially if blocked shots while Out of Stamina dealt close to 80% of their damage and didn't stop Lights from chaining.

DrinkinMyStella
06-07-2018, 05:10 PM
Chip damage. That is it. Right now, chip damage is virtually nonexistent. You can safely block several top heavies without much issue, and you can't even be killed by it. If you took 40% or 50% of the damage when blocking, you would be more encourages to try and risk a parry instead. Eating two blocked heavies is basically taking a heavy straight out. It would stop people from turtling safely with blocks, since you could be legitimately laid out by them.

Especially if blocked shots while Out of Stamina dealt close to 80% of their damage and didn't stop Lights from chaining.

then there will be the parry meta, Imagine everyone becomes insanely good at parrying because they are forced to, now what? there will be a parry meta and they will have to find a solution for that and that will be harder than just dealing with the odd turtle.

ThePollie
06-07-2018, 05:12 PM
Simple - Feint. If they want to parry spam, then you feint to open them up. This is why the turtling is a problem, you have no means to open them up without unblockables and bashes. For those characters that lack them - like Orochi - your only option is spamming Lights and hope they fail a block. The game should be about parrying more than blocking. I fail to see why that is a bad thing.

DrinkinMyStella
06-07-2018, 05:19 PM
Simple - Feint. If they want to parry spam, then you feint to open them up. This is why the turtling is a problem, you have no means to open them up without unblockables and bashes. For those characters that lack them - like Orochi - your only option is spamming Lights and hope they fail a block. The game should be about parrying more than blocking. I fail to see why that is a bad thing.

no its not a bad thing, I would love to be able to parry 90% of attacks that come my way but what I meant was if you force people to risk a parry rather than block then eventually everyone will become too godly at parrying and then people will come here and cry that the games to hard and they are getting parried all the time. I agree that every hero should have an opener in one way or another.

Knight_Raime
06-07-2018, 05:20 PM
Turtling wouldn't be so easy to do if combo speeds were not borked from buffering and you had to learn an individual heros speeds (via varied ms increments) rather than how it is currently where you only need to learn 4 speeds for most of the attacks in the game. It also would help drastically if we had block strings that had mix up potential. As both strings and mix up on strings would add pressure to the blocker. And blocking an attack from neutral in most cases wouldn't reset the fight to neutral.

Devs are currently fixing the buffer issue and are looking to add varied increments after that. No word on block strings with mix ups as far as I know. But I don't think it's been proposed to them yet.

ThePollie
06-07-2018, 05:28 PM
I have already seen people that are utterly godlike with parrying. They just parry Lights, because parrying Heavies are risky. Heavies are easy to parry, even the fastest aren't fast enough to slip through most player reflexes. What makes them useful are feints and the damage. You never know for sure if it's a legitimate heavy or a feint to open your guard. That is the point. Good parrying isn't all reflexes. Even for Lights, there can be a measure of reading involved.

Right now, there is virtually no reason to ever risk parrying a Heavy if out of stamina. You get no damage out of it - since you have no stamina to strike back with - and the damage received from blocking is far too little to effect change in the battle. You are always better off just blocking it and taking like 5 chip damage, instead of a potential 40-70 damage. Which means when they're OOS, your only realistic options are to use Unblockables - Which force a response to parry or risk eating it - or to bash, which either opens their guard by force or makes them react in a way that opens them to damage with a mix-up.

Because of the current system, I am incredibly aggressive with heroes like Orochi, confident he can't really do anything to me if I run out of stamina. What's the worst he can do? Deal 15 chip damage and exhaust himself in the process by spamming Heavies?

UbiJurassic
06-08-2018, 02:02 AM
There's definitely some interesting ideas and conversation going on and the feedback everyone's given so far is great. I'll make sure to note the suggestions down!

ChampionRuby50g
06-08-2018, 03:20 AM
Simple - Feint. If they want to parry spam, then you feint to open them up. This is why the turtling is a problem, you have no means to open them up without unblockables and bashes. For those characters that lack them - like Orochi - your only option is spamming Lights and hope they fail a block. The game should be about parrying more than blocking. I fail to see why that is a bad thing.

Not simple. I canít think of how many times Iíve been able to cancel my own heavy or seen an opponent feint their heavy in reaction to me feinting, and not falling for the bait. The way the timing is now, players can react to a feint with their own feint and still be safe. You also fail to see why spamming lights is a bad thing? ďYour only option is to hope the player you are fighting isnít that experienced and gets overwhelmed easily by light attacks that can be 500ms-600msĒ Can you not see how stupid that is? Just bad luck to these heroes, and thatís your grand solution?

ThePollie
06-08-2018, 03:43 AM
No, I see how bad spamming lights is. We don't disagree on that. And you can guard-break people feinting out of their parry, and you can light them for damage. It isn't safe to feint out of a parry, and sometimes you will actually hit them by trying to parry. I've had plenty of people try and feint to bait me and I let the parry ride into a full heavy and catch them, expecting they'd just light me or something.

SlapO_xFight
06-08-2018, 04:03 AM
Hello,

I've said it in past post plenty of times. I am an Orochi since Beta and i hate what they did to him. I had been waiting since S1 for him to be fixed and felt like the call was finally heard however I was wrong i truly feel as if they do not want this character to be a threat or to succeed. It its characters like the Orochi that lack the most when it comes to team fights and opening up turtles due to the lack of an opener. I feel strongly towards the idea of all heros having an opener and reflex guard.

It would make sense that you wouldn't be able to keep a guard of on one side and receive multiple blows while continuing to have no consequence due to muscle exhaustion. Also its absolutely ridiculous to think that these elite heres wouldn't be able to punch or kick to open someone up. To limit this ability to only a few characters is inexcusable and insulting to our warrior ancestors.

Give all characters reflex guard (or take it out the game and give all characters the same guard) and give characters a viable opener.
I have mixed feelings towards reflex guard I feel like i the Orochi it affects my Parrying, I seem to miss more on characters with reflex guard than ones that don't.

Also is it just me or do some characters (like the Orochi) have shorter cancel windows for feinting. This would seem so, meaning they have to choose whether or not they want to cancel sooner into the animation before the attack ajust goes. I noticed for me this get me parried a lot on my Roch I will try and fiend to open a turtle, hitting the cancel button right after I throw the heavy and instead of the attack canceling, it just flies. This can also play a part for turtles making it easier for them to decide if your feint is an actual threat or not. I think all characters should be allowed the same window to cancel an attack that way one persons cancel is not quicker than another.

DrinkinMyStella
06-08-2018, 09:41 AM
I do believe that they have to make more incentive for people to want to parry rather than block but I don't know even what would work, maybe when OOS if you block an attack it drains your stamina back a little forcing you to retreat or parry but I fear that everything ubi try to do will make them a target of abuse from someone who doesn't get it or cant hack it. you have the average players and the the pro players and lets say 90% are average therefore their reactions will not be as good as the 10% of pro players; the game has to accommodate the masses rather than a small % of players. if the game gets any quicker or require me to have even faster reactions then i'm afraid i'll have to leave FH because my Brain won't be able to keep up, already I can get overwhelmed with the pace of the game and the feinting and i'm sure lots others will leave too if it gets to the point where the pace is too fast especially on console like myself. The current state of the game I feel is better than it's ever been (not balancing issues, just mechanics).

ThePollie
06-08-2018, 01:16 PM
I'm an advocate for chip damage, personally. Right now, if I throw a Warden top heavy, it's 40 damage. Or like 8 if you block it. Which would you rather risk?

Now if that attack chipped for, say, 18 instead, that's suddenly something they can't afford to take five or six of over the course of a round. Just two of those blocked amounts to more damage that just straight eating a side heavy. Turtling is so effective and widely used because there are only a few counters from a few heroes that even work to stop that. In many match-ups, stamina management isn't even a thing, because they can't touch you if you just block while you recover.

Right now, it it's not Unblockable or a Bash, you can just ignore it and block. If it's a Light, you can opt to try parrying it, since most can't feint it into something else. Warden gets especially difficult against skilled players. The people that consistently parry your Lights, completely ignore your Heavies, and will just roll out of your Shoulder-bash mixup. Even if you can catch them in the latter, it is an incredibly boring match of you fishing for parries yourself and spamming bashes while they refuse to do anything but poke and prod at you for half an hour.

RenegadeTX2000
06-09-2018, 07:23 AM
Game should be all about heavies honestly, reward for throwing them out there.

My big problem with the punishing system behind feinting is that if you go for a parry and you realize it's a bait, you can easily feint your own parry attempt so you aren't punished in going for a parry.

That's the big issue with the whole parry system right now. Some characters can feint a heavy to bait and get no punish for the heavy bait because their options after aren't suffice enough.

What's the general rule of thumb of punishing an opponent going for a parry attempt?

Feint>>>GB?

Then you have characters like Aramusha, Centurion, Gladiator, Conqueror that have heavies that you can't bait into a GB because they have quick invulnerable non gb'able heavies that punish you going for that option.

If the Heavy changes were to happen I feel these characters might be the meta for the simple fact you can't punish them going for a parry.

There's times where I avoid all 3 scenarios as Aramusha. They go for an attack, I attempt parry, they GB, I cancel my heavy and they actually bounce off me like I was still attempting to follow through with my attack... Same for if they tried to just bait my heavy so they can parry... They still wouldn't be able to punish me.

It's not meta right now because Heavies aren't optimal in throwing out in high levels of play. The timing of the heavy can be thrown to avoid both the attempted parry bait and GB punish at the same time giving your character no opening to be exposed...

I'll keep advocating this... The game needs more universal balance changes. Back dodge change is a good start... Needs more

EDIT:

I forgot to mention, Universal changes have only helped this game...

First it was the univeral block cursor change, some characters were slower to block then others until they decided to change it to where everybody would be created equally in terms of having the same speed of block.

Next was the parry into Guard break change... Another universal change that was happily accepted to make the game play experience better.

Next was the back dodge change, which was amazing in keeping the gameplay experience at a better pace...

There's more but I only prefer mentioning the biggest changes for better experience in any game mode.

More universal changes that would make gameplay better...

Heavies on block, increased reward for the attacker.

Everybody has the same heavy feint start up and ability to be GB'd.

Universal stamina changes, if you are out of stamina, you don't further lose stamina for being hit by a stamina drain unblockable, it only pauses your stamina for a slight moment... same scenario if you get thrown... pretty much anything that drains your stamina would only pause it while in the out of stamina state. double the chip damage while out of stamina. This way ALL characters will be a threat when they have their opponent out of stamina. Give shugoki stamina pausing heavies because he's shugoki. Him being a special case... He's throwing a treelog at you... Not blocking normally... better move out the way lol

All Assassins have the same block, I feel like assassins should potentially be the best 1v1 fighters but also the hardest to use in the game in terms of defense. Every assassin should have gladiators defense timing.

More reward for cornering your opponent near a wall. so for people that like to wall camp. "shugoki, Centurion." If they go for gb and you counter it, the wall should be a hazard the same way as if they were spikes or a ledge. ONLY for the GB counter. This would make being cornered extremely bad and reward for the player that was able to push them there.

if you gb counter or go for a gb and they counter, it should be reset back to neutral. The constant gb,gb,gb,gb, after countering multiple times is bad to look at... And the person going for the GB and being countered is the only one that should be stumbling backwards back into neutral or into a wall.

Give Centurion his throw into kick confirmed combo, kinda lame how if you throw and immediately kick, they can dodge... While characters like Conqueror/Shaman get free follow ups into their unblockables after a throw.

ThePollie
06-09-2018, 01:02 PM
Honestly, I know an easy way to fix that - Require feints be buffered, not reacted. For keyboard/mouse, you press E after a heavy to feint it. Instead, you now have to hold E during the heavy to feint it. You're committed to a feint from the first frame, instead of being able to option select it last second because you realized you got baited. Just like OOS parries, you wouldn't be able to withdraw them. If you don't have E held before you start the heavy, you can't feint it and it will follow through.

This would also help fix the issue of wanting to feint, but not hitting E quickly enough during your heavy and having it fly when you didn't want it to. Now if only'd we could get a specific button for zone-attacks.

RenegadeTX2000
06-10-2018, 10:09 AM
Stamina universal change.

They want it to be more of a hazard. Out of stamina=death... But not every character can take advantage of that scenario. Highlander, Conqueror just a cut above the rest of the roster in terms of punishing you while out of stamina...

The change I think would be fair is universally making it to where EVERYBODY is a threat out of stamina and for the characters LACKING unblockables to get a reaction out of the opponent, I would make this change...

lights and heavies cause stamina pausing and create double chip damage.

Unblockables no longer cause either stamina drain or stamina pause.
Your blocking is slowed down immensely, referring back to pre patch lawbringer cursor block reactions.
Blocking a heavy will kill you if you block while out of stamina.
If you switch directions on blocking you can't immediately dodge. Balance the timing around to if they try and feint into a quick unblockable like Gladiator toe stab, you attempt to block his heavy then he cancels into toe stab, you have time to react to both scenarios and dodge.

The balance.....

If you parry any sort of attack while out of stamina you immediately regain all of your stamina back. Which makes having unblockables still a "Safe." option but no longer the spamming option if somebody is out of stamina because reward for attacking somebody out of stamina is too great to pass up.

If you are guard broken and thrown to the ground it pauses your stamina until you get back up.

If they block your heavy it pauses their stamina for longer. if they block your light the stamina pause isn't as long.

Shugoki's lights count as if they were heavies so pausing would be universally the same with him like he's only throwing heavies... "I'm always trying to give shugoki love and I'm a rep 0." lmao

EDIT:

Gladiator, I would take away his zone cancel. and with the universal changes for the out of stamina. he'd be so much better for he could mix up his parry/punch and follow up with heavy. Gladiator would actually be so much fun with these universal changes for out of stamina...

His punches would mean more in neutral for getting opponents out of stamina because of his true mix up intensive attacks and when he has you shuffling with your cursor, he could land toe stab "out of stamina" version and keep the pressure up.

and for EVERY character with a built in punch/daze as part of their parry. They will WANT to do it because draining somebodies stamina will be the meta because of the insane pressure you could get off it. Again, balance is if you parry stamina comes back fully. and the person you just parried might just be out of stamina now because he kept trying to put pressure on you and when you return that same attack you might be parried out of stamina as well so it creates this crazy all out attack mind games.


EDIT AGAIN...

Think about the gear stats and how you would build your character around the changes...

Would you want Defense penetration or block damage?

Would you want stamina reduction or Regen?

More people would just go balanced in that scenario and + everything.

ChampionRuby50g
06-10-2018, 12:41 PM
Not gonna lie, I actually donít mind the sound of those changes Renegade. One thing Iím confused on is ďBlocking a heavy will kill you if you block while out of staminaĒ

Does this mean even if you are OOS while full health one heavy will kill you? Or if you are on your last bar, half health itíll kill ya? Personally I reckon thatís a bit much

Arekonator
06-10-2018, 02:42 PM
I understand that as "chip damage can kill when OOS".

MuscleTech12018
06-10-2018, 05:26 PM
I laugh so hard when i see people that in june 2018 after all the changes still cry because they cannot beat "turtle" chars :))))

Thank you, made my day.:cool:

No0b.Nr.1
06-10-2018, 06:08 PM
I laugh so hard when i see people that in june 2018 after all the changes still cry because they cannot beat "turtle" chars :))))

Thank you, made my day.:cool:

Keep laughing, becaus this thread isnt for people like you. Its not about one or 2 turtle char. and beating turtles . But bigmouthes should come around and give their shots without being serious and factual. ( ANY TIME U WANT IF U R ON PC , u can add me and we try to beat turtles and we see how u can beat turtles in june 2018 )

RenegadeTX2000
06-10-2018, 07:35 PM
Not gonna lie, I actually don’t mind the sound of those changes Renegade. One thing I’m confused on is “Blocking a heavy will kill you if you block while out of stamina”

Does this mean even if you are OOS while full health one heavy will kill you? Or if you are on your last bar, half health it’ll kill ya? Personally I reckon that’s a bit much

if they are low on health and oos, but that change doesn't have to make it. but the rest I feel like would make the game better

RenegadeTX2000
06-11-2018, 01:42 AM
I think turtling should still be a thing, just takes skill to actually perform it, since attacks mean more when they are blocked. Blocking should be more of a skill not something you can relax on.

and by turtling skills I mean the full package... Dodging, parrying, and blocking the necessary attacks vs parrying the necessary attacks and dodging what you think will grant you a good punish after performing an evasive maneuver.