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D3dicatedSrv3rz
05-26-2018, 12:07 PM
Why is this still a thing

The_B0G_
05-26-2018, 03:34 PM
Because it's basically his only good mixup to open up turtles, and people used to dodge both his kick and his caber toss with the same side dodge.

A fast light stops his kick. Plenty of heroes have more annoying mixups, you have wardens should bash spam, conqs shield bash spam and the never ending raider light taps.

Vakris_One
05-26-2018, 03:41 PM
Why is this still a thing
What do you mean "still"? It used to be insanely easy to dodge before his balance pass. You could dodge the kick and you'd automatically dodge the caber toss as well. Now you actually need to wait and react to the caber toss in order to dodge it instead of getting a free pass for dodging just the kick.

D3dicatedSrv3rz
05-26-2018, 04:55 PM
What do you mean "still"? It used to be insanely easy to dodge before his balance pass. You could dodge the kick and you'd automatically dodge the caber toss as well. Now you actually need to wait and react to the caber toss in order to dodge it instead of getting a free pass for dodging just the kick.

I do wait for the animation switch, mostly i miss due to how little time there is to react on console and how quick the switch is but when i dodge 'correctly' the toss is still forced upon me. If the move wasnt forced to connect with my dodge so easily there would not be the scenario where we essentially switch places within i'd say 2 frames upon contact hence the '180 degree' title of the thread

Vakris_One
05-26-2018, 05:28 PM
I do wait for the animation switch, mostly i miss due to how little time there is to react on console and how quick the switch is but when i dodge 'correctly' the toss is still forced upon me. If the move wasnt forced to connect with my dodge so easily there would not be the scenario where we essentially switch places within i'd say 2 frames upon contact hence the '180 degree' title of the thread
You must not be getting the timing right if it still catches you. If you are dodging when you see his hand go up you should be escaping the grab unless there is bad lag involved.

The move's tracking was improved so that people couldn't just dodge on reaction of the kick and also get a free pass on the grab as well. Only characters with dodge attacks can dodge the kick and avoid the grab by stuffing it with their dodge strike. The exception being PK (and maybe Nobushi?). PK is the only assassin that gets caught by the grab if she dodge attacked on reaction to the kick. In my opinion that's not very fair to PK and should be changed.

D3dicatedSrv3rz
05-26-2018, 06:15 PM
You must not be getting the timing right if it still catches you. If you are dodging when you see his hand go up you should be escaping the grab unless there is bad lag involved.

The move's tracking was improved so that people couldn't just dodge on reaction of the kick and also get a free pass on the grab as well. Only characters with dodge attacks can dodge the kick and avoid the grab by stuffing it with their dodge strike. The exception being PK (and maybe Nobushi?). PK is the only assassin that gets caught by the grab if she dodge attacked on reaction to the kick. In my opinion that's not very fair to PK and should be changed.

Im almost certain his offensive stance feints are not meant to be consistently countered outside of reverting him back to defensive stance by landing an attack. Perhaps my skill is lacking in this department. I grow tired of playing the guessing game against good HL's especially the ones who feint the unblockable into a kick into a toss. I am genuinely curious how u fair against the HL bot in training mode with the Offensive form mix up preset because i havent a hope of successfully dodging him. Its just as bad (for me) as trying to parry Orochi's new storm rush

UbiJurassic
05-26-2018, 07:28 PM
Caber Toss can be super frustrating to deal with. One of the best videos I've seen that helps illustrate your options against it is this one.


https://youtu.be/3jLf1uqTvl8

D3dicatedSrv3rz
05-27-2018, 01:42 AM
Caber Toss can be super frustrating to deal with. One of the best videos I've seen that helps illustrate your options against it is this one.


https://youtu.be/3jLf1uqTvl8

'...call the HL's bluff and wait for the caber...'
Had I known the timing of the dodge was an either or situation mirroring Warden's 5050 bash i would have never started this thread. Thank you though for the link Jurassic.

SpaceJim12
05-27-2018, 11:23 AM
Now you actually need to wait and react to the caber toss in order to dodge it instead of getting a free pass for dodging just the kick.

But the window you can dodge kick lie between his kick start animation and moment when he change it with hand. So if you wait, you deffenetly loose moment to dodge kick. It's rediculouse, cause you should choose between "eat kick/dodge hand" or "dodge kick/eat hand". So it's a luck moment. You wait and hope for Toss, or dodge and hope for kick. I don't this this type of moves should be in a game.

Btw it's obvious advantage for assassins and Kensei, who can just dodge attack and stop Toss with no worries.

KitingFatKidsEZ
05-27-2018, 11:30 AM
'...call the HL's bluff and wait for the caber...'
Had I known the timing of the dodge was an either or situation mirroring Warden's 5050 bash i would have never started this thread. Thank you though for the link Jurassic.

Its really not. The full video explains the correct counterplay:
backdodge the kick, press dodge again to go into a roll if you see the caber toss come out.

Being only able to deal with something by rolling is pretty broken but thats another story.

As mentioned above, just play a character with a good dodge attack. All the others just dont have a good time against this mixup in particular.
(cough half the cast is unplayable cough)

Vakris_One
05-27-2018, 02:26 PM
Im almost certain his offensive stance feints are not meant to be consistently countered outside of reverting him back to defensive stance by landing an attack. Perhaps my skill is lacking in this department. I grow tired of playing the guessing game against good HL's especially the ones who feint the unblockable into a kick into a toss. I am genuinely curious how u fair against the HL bot in training mode with the Offensive form mix up preset because i havent a hope of successfully dodging him. Its just as bad (for me) as trying to parry Orochi's new storm rush


But the window you can dodge kick lie between his kick start animation and moment when he change it with hand. So if you wait, you deffenetly loose moment to dodge kick. It's rediculouse, cause you should choose between "eat kick/dodge hand" or "dodge kick/eat hand". So it's a luck moment. You wait and hope for Toss, or dodge and hope for kick. I don't this this type of moves should be in a game.

Btw it's obvious advantage for assassins and Kensei, who can just dodge attack and stop Toss with no worries.
To answer both, yes the characters with good dodge attacks can completely ignore this mixup but that's how it is with this rock, paper, scissors style of matchups. The Highlander has a very difficult time against them as a result.

How do you avoid the kick/toss mixup in the first place? You stuff him out of his offensive stance with a light. The thing about this move is that Highlander can't whip it out it from neutral, he needs to go into OF stance to access it. If you have a 500ms light attack you can stuff him out of his mixup on reaction to the kick or even the unblockable. You then force the Highlander to back off and go into OF stance safely away from you and then approach you, which makes it easier for you to poke him out of his OF stance because you have more time to do so. At that point you just gotta be aware of the dodge master Highlanders and use your heavy feint into light to mess their dodging up.

The only time the kick/toss mixup becomes truly oppressive is when it is used as a follow up from a parry or guard crush punish and when you are out of stamina, in which case you better hope the Highlander gets cocky and becomes predictable by always going for the kick into grab. Best tip is to never go OOS against a Highlander.