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View Full Version : Deathball > Revenge Meta. Balance solutions.



Cuckk_Monkey
05-22-2018, 02:55 AM
At the start of the game, revenge was the meta and although it needed to change, it too harshly shifted to the gank or deathball meta that's become so toxic to new players and solo que players. This is killing the game from growing. Using teamwork should still give you the ADVANTAGE, key word advantage. but it shouldn't just make it a sure thing and one sided fight in a 1v4 situation. If you're playing people who know what their doing, even top players don't stand a chance. I believe if you play your cards right, any character on the roster should be able to have a fighting CHANCE in a 1v4, although at a disadvantage.

One of the main reasons ganking is so strong outside of revenge, is because of gaps in the defensive system that need to be addressed now that the game is getting more offensive. I have 3 main points I want to cover.

1. Counter guard break needs a full block stance instead of reduced damage. You get guard broke, you counter, and yet still a lawbringer can get a free poke and instantly kill you on a ledge or a wall, but you made the right defensive move. another situation is you get GB'd and you counter then you get hit by an external heavy and take full damage before your guard returns. so the reduced damage in only circumstantially working, and still taking half damage is still alot, half of a chained 75 damage raider unblockable is still like almost 40 damage. Players need to be able to stand their ground for making the correct defensive move and not just get punished no matter what they do. The full block stance on counter guard break will also create more need for a class with unblock-able attacks (non-melee) on your team.

2. Parries need a superior hyper armor stance. You're getting ganked, you catch a multi parry, the first two heavies are parried, but then a conq bashes you or you get melee and the third heavy that would of been parried now comes through and kills you before you can activate revenge. You made the right move and parried, but were stuck in the animation and shouldn't be punished for that because you were unable to dodge the bash. If you're in a parry animation, melees should not affect you while in this animation.

3. Revenge needs to be more offensive, this should be your opportunity to attack while getting ganked and hope the other team tries to trade with you instead of them countering defensively. It should shift the tide of battle and force the gank to play defensively unless they are willing to trade a massive amount of damage for the kill. But right now, revenge is only uninterruptible while you are already attacking. When you decide to attack in revenge, you should be able to attack instantly without stagger. Revenge needs a passive hyper armor. Too often you go into revenge and one attack staggers you, followed by the next attack ect. and it becomes this domino effect of attack staggers and you're sitting here trying to attack but have to wait for everyone to stop attacking you first.


there's a couple other things that I want to address that are off topic but feel like they need to be said.
1. Every character on the roster needs a health buff by at least a bar. Lawbringer could have 8 bars of health right now and nobody would complain. Also there isn't a huge health difference between assassins the rest of the cast, but assassins don't need less health, you should increase everyone's health, assassins maybe get one bar and non assassins get 2 or 3 bars of health to really make non assassins feel more tanky.

2. Lawbringer and warden both have suits of armor and I find it ridiculous that they don't have hyper armor on their heavies. Allowing non-assassins to have more hyper armor moves would make also make them feel more tanky.

3. Non assassins have a really hard time dodging. and dodging is more important to defense now than ever with the offensive moves coming into the game. Get rid of the 100ms buffer to dodge after switching guard and allow non assassins to have a little more dodge distance. Shigoki, highlander, Lawbringer, they are all impossible to dodge a shaman bash with, especially if they are blocking an external attack or switching guard, that pounce then becomes confirmed.

Thank you for hearing me out, you guys have done a lot to improve the game, but the journey isn't over and I think the gank meta taking over is why new people are having such a hard time getting into the game. They should have that feeling like a good player on their team can actually carry them if he plays his cards right, and right now, that's just not the case. We want to help new players but the meta of the game is making it so that if you don't have a 4 stack with experienced players, you really can't stand a chance against another 4 stack. Balance the Gank vs revenge meta, bring back the chance for those epic 1v4 wins (not just against noobs) that made this game so epic. Allow the us to carry noobs to victory against the toxic villainous deathballs in out brave solo queuing journey and inspire new heroes to rise and master the game. That is all.

CandleInTheDark
05-22-2018, 06:23 AM
Ok a few things to address, going to start with the thing that sticks out right at the start where you say even top players struggle with this. That is either ignorance or dishonesty, the devs and the people at the workshops have flat out said it isn't a problem at top tier and this was demonstrated in that a Nobushi player held a couple minute long rolling 1v3/4 and was the ultimate survivor in that while points were tallying up in the other two zones. If you are going to use hyperbole to try and back your points try not to make it easily disproved BS. It can work some battles as an option but it is less viable by far at that level.

Frankly the fact that 3/4v1 is an almost sure thing is not the problem, that is basic math, the problem is twofold, that unless you have a super adept turtler who can hold off a group it is too rewarding as there is nothing to benefit playing the objective and the second problem is on the players who a, don't communicate and b, walk into 1v4 or run to join a 1v4 when their partner is flashing critical, all they do is feed the deathball more blood, renown and feats. There are changes that need to be made but the odds of walking out of 1v4 isn't one of them.

Revenge is fine as is, honestly it should be more defensively based, it is BS that people are stronger fighting a group of people than they are against one but all in all if it is going to be there at all it isn't in a bad spot. I have found that if I have survived long enough to trigger it, odds are good that I have chipped a couple down with lights and target switching that if I get an auto parry knockdown I can finish one of them off. I have won 1v2's, I have killed two out of three, I have survived three and four long enough for my team to join me and I am by no means top tier. And yeah as I implied I don't think revenge should be that much a thing, it generally makes up for bad play, my team got wiped oh I have revenge, I should run and try to regroup but I really want 1v4 cool points, oh I have revenge. Some of this is on the players and they should not be rewarded for bad play with a power boost to make bad situations survivable.

Very anti assassin here, there will be a good balancing reason the devs don't want everyone trading through hits, it also dilutes the uniqueness of those who have it and they are generally on slower attacks (berserker being the exception as harassers) than certainly anything the warden has, the lawbringer has an unblockable that adds to his mindgame (those big flashy slow attacks you never let go first time, but flow off them and they will hit when they do go through).

You seriously want to increase the dodging capacities of non assassins? You do realise that back dodge distance certainly (can't recall if it is all dodges but if not they should have an advantage somewhere) has been standardised, right? You are either advocating that non assassins have more dodge distance than assassins or you are making these arguments without knowing the current state of play and so from a state of ignorance, pretty much same as the this is even a problem high tier statement.

The answer is not making one person stronger than four, it is making it objectively more risky to roam as a four. In League of Legends, deathballing is going to wind up with the outgunned person dead but the deathballing team will lose ground everywhere else if their opponents play smart. This means bigger maps or changing the mechanics of dominion in such a way that zones are much less effective or beneficial when they are not manned as opposed to one less point a second that can almost be made up in getting scores for quick kills.

In before I must be one of those in deathballs, actually no, I am often the 1 in 1vx because I seem to be one of the very few people that actually boost zones rather than find a rolling 4v4 or 4vx.

ArmoredChocobo
05-22-2018, 08:09 AM
If you’re giving “armored” characters hyper armor and more health, they should take a damage hit.

Tanks shouldn’t also be DPS, after all...

Jedioutcast88
05-22-2018, 08:34 AM
The answer is not making one person stronger than four, it is making it objectively more risky to roam as a four. In League of Legends, deathballing is going to wind up with the outgunned person dead but the deathballing team will lose ground everywhere else if their opponents play smart. This means bigger maps or changing the mechanics of dominion in such a way that zones are much less effective or beneficial when they are not manned as opposed to one less point a second that can almost be made up in getting scores for quick kills.

In before I must be one of those in deathballs, actually no, I am often the 1 in 1vx because I seem to be one of the very few people that actually boost zones rather than find a rolling 4v4 or 4vx.


Maybe if they took some elements from tribute and put them into dominion that might help with the death ball/ gank squads forming up. It’s pretty much the only reason I enjoy tribute is because the gank squads/death balling is harder to do. I’m not saying tribute neutralizes ganking it still can happen it is just harder for them to win a match against players that are playing and protecting the objectives.

SpaceJim12
05-22-2018, 10:26 AM
Well, I see some good points here from Candle and JoeYoung both.



Counter guard break needs a full block stance instead of reduced damage.

Well, this really something that need to look at. The most profitable tactic in gunks it's GB, while your teammates deal dmg. Before revenge all stun/control moves works, like shield bushes, headbuttes etc.
So if gunkers know what they doing, you can't stand a chance, just can't, and saying chance I don't mean kill all 4, I mean you will hold up less than a couple seconds.


That is either ignorance or dishonesty, the devs and the people at the workshops have flat out said it isn't a problem at top tier and this was demonstrated in that a Nobushi player held a couple minute long rolling 1v3/4

Can I see video of this? I mean, while I understand it's possible to stand against 3/4 (did it a lot on my LB), I can't believe that someone, who want to really show what gunks is can't did it against Nobushi. I want to see how it's happend and what enemy team did to kill her.


walk into 1v4 or run to join a 1v4 when their partner is flashing critical, all they do is feed the deathball more blood

I really didn't see someone who could go 1v4 nowadays. But this so much depends on classes and situation. I mean, when I play Shinobi I could run across map all day long, so when I see 4 people who crushing my teammate on C, I will go to A, capture it. But for sure this guys do the same. So as fast Shinobi I could just leave A and go to C, so I always could be somewhere, where deathball none. But what if I LB? And I see how 4 people crushing my teammate? I could go to another zone, but in best case I have second advantage until gunk squade arrive. Maps just to small to play smart with deathball, and if you don't have speed advantage, so they win. I mean, look at Beachhead. This just ultimate gunkspot of all times. Sure as heavy slow char I could just stand against this guys, but this return us to point one of the original thread's post.


Revenge needs to be more offensive, this should be your opportunity to attack while getting ganked

Revenge is fine as is, honestly it should be more defensively based

While you still could use gear stats to make you revenge almost endless, I don't think we need buff it. I mean, with proper stats you will gain revenge from two blocks and it will be going until you kill your opponent. I see a lot situation where revenge just help to win 1v1 in 4v4 modes. It's not right and need fix.


Lawbringer and warden both have suits of armor and I find it ridiculous that they don't have hyper armor on their heavies.

I should agree on Lawbringer hyper armor, not sure about Warden. LB is heavy armored guy and there are no real reasons why he less protected than a bearded guy in a skirt.


And in the end the real problem in gunks is broken guard indicator. In some situation with feints, different speed attacks it's just start flashing like Christmas Tree, and you can't react cause to much input information. This I start to see from the mid of S4 and this problem still in game.

CandleInTheDark
05-22-2018, 10:47 AM
Can I see video of this? I mean, while I understand it's possible to stand against 3/4 (did it a lot on my LB), I can't believe that someone, who want to really show what gunks is can't did it against Nobushi. I want to see how it's happend and what enemy team did to kill her..

This is the main one, picked up kills and tied three of them up in one zone for a long while. https://youtu.be/O7PcIDNAnxA?t=4195 His team wound up losing that one (they got swept so it was as much a general one team was better than the other thing), the other team's Nobushi main in the first game was constantly 1v2 in the minion zone to the point the casters said the other team would be better off focussing the other two zones.

It highlights why it isn't an issue in high tier but also why it is so much an issue any other tier, not many players my (somewhere around lower mid to mid tier?) level certainly can do that. The problem there is if Ubisoft want this or a theoretical future version to be an esport in the future, they have to balance around the capabilities of the players in that link, that is why 'buff revenge so one player is as powerful as four' wouldn't work and why I think they need more larger maps where a player who can hold them about 30 seconds (my rough 1v3 average) can make a difference if the team is smart or either in dominion or another game mode, as was suggested above, they need other elements whether tribute-esque or something else entirely where ignoring the objective in favour of a roaming 4 vastly hinders them completing the objective. Making it so someone needed to kill soldiers for points or someone needed to be in the zones for points (eg kills and time holding a zone only registers an objective score if someone is boosting a non contested zone) or some other game mode all together that needs players in different parts of the map like league of legends manages is the way to deal with this in my view.

The_B0G_
05-22-2018, 11:19 AM
This topic has been beat to death, they have all the suggestions and ideas they need to fix the deathball issue, they just need to make a decision and implement it.

SpaceJim12
05-22-2018, 11:43 AM
This is the main one, picked up kills and tied three of them up in one zone for a long while. https://youtu.be/O7PcIDNAnxA?t=4195 His team wound up losing that one (they got swept so it was as much a general one team was better than the other thing), the other team's Nobushi main in the first game was constantly 1v2 in the minion zone to the point the casters said the other team would be better off focussing the other two zones.

Well, as I thought, this video didn't show real gunks. I don't know how things going on top tier, but this guys compleatly didn't try to kill Nobushi. All they did is trying to revive their teammates, while Nobushi successfuly spam dodge+attack with switching button.
Maybe I'm not so skilled to judge, but here I see three separated players who just don't know what to do. Nobody even once parry this Nobushi, and she deffenetly didn't do something special to stop gunkers.
So if this video something that shows us WHY deathball are not a problem on top tier, so I should say on top tier nobody knows how to gunk proper.

Still I agree it's problem of really less objective means in dominion. Even worse, I see more and more situation when my team in the end have more objectives than enemies team, but we still loose with 300-500 points gap. And if we speak that Dominion is about objectives, I got some proves it's don't. And it's not about kills either. So Dominion now is all about luck, same as in video of Nobushi.
And this make me sad. When someone win cause their lucky, or I win cause my team lucky.

BTTrinity
05-22-2018, 03:52 PM
This is the main one, picked up kills and tied three of them up in one zone for a long while. https://youtu.be/O7PcIDNAnxA?t=4195 His team wound up losing that one (they got swept so it was as much a general one team was better than the other thing), the other team's Nobushi main in the first game was constantly 1v2 in the minion zone to the point the casters said the other team would be better off focussing the other two zones.

It highlights why it isn't an issue in high tier but also why it is so much an issue any other tier, not many players my (somewhere around lower mid to mid tier?) level certainly can do that. The problem there is if Ubisoft want this or a theoretical future version to be an esport in the future, they have to balance around the capabilities of the players in that link, that is why 'buff revenge so one player is as powerful as four' wouldn't work and why I think they need more larger maps where a player who can hold them about 30 seconds (my rough 1v3 average) can make a difference if the team is smart or either in dominion or another game mode, as was suggested above, they need other elements whether tribute-esque or something else entirely where ignoring the objective in favour of a roaming 4 vastly hinders them completing the objective. Making it so someone needed to kill soldiers for points or someone needed to be in the zones for points (eg kills and time holding a zone only registers an objective score if someone is boosting a non contested zone) or some other game mode all together that needs players in different parts of the map like league of legends manages is the way to deal with this in my view.

That video still highlights another issue.... The fact that everyone was in a group fight on one point, the other points were uncontested and just netting free points while a fight goes down.... (But yes, when you're outnumbered you should be scared and at a disadvantage)

Anyway, @OP

Most seem to suggest that the zone capture/reward system needs a change...

On the capture zones, a player needs to be in it at all times if you want that zone generating points (Just like every other game with this game-mode)

On the minion zones, a player needs to be killing minions if you want that zone generating points.

This would encourage death-ballers to split apart and actually play by the obj like Dominion should be played.

Feats also need to die

SpaceJim12
05-22-2018, 04:38 PM
Most seem to suggest that the zone capture/reward system needs a change...

On the capture zones, a player needs to be in it at all times if you want that zone generating points (Just like every other game with this game-mode)

On the minion zones, a player needs to be killing minions if you want that zone generating points.

This would encourage death-ballers to split apart and actually play by the obj like Dominion should be played.

Feats also need to die

See this suggestion of yours everywhere on a forum.=)

But I mostly agree, but I don't think they will remove feats, so it's better ro use another system of gaining points for them. As all MOBA games, 4v4 Dominion is a team based game. So the experience (aka points) must count for everyone in a team. And let player gain points for team only if he stay in the zone or killing minions. Yes, kills must give you points, but less (really less), than boosting zone.
Look at Heroes of the Storm. There are same problem, when team group up and go into one line. This lead to 5v5 battles all over the map. But if someone leave this fight and go kill minions and push line, his team start to gain a lot more XP, and took better and better skills and win 4v5 situation, so enemy team forced to split up across lines.
I agree with Candle and some others, that Dominion should take inspiration from objectives based MOBA games, while Dominion have some common things with MOBA.

CandleInTheDark
05-22-2018, 05:33 PM
Well, as I thought, this video didn't show real gunks. I don't know how things going on top tier, but this guys compleatly didn't try to kill Nobushi. All they did is trying to revive their teammates, while Nobushi successfuly spam dodge+attack with switching button.

Honestly I see that in a different way. You have to bear in mind that at this level players are very good defensively (can't remember how many but some of them were in the 1v1 tournament the previous season) and right at the start when two did go for an attack at the same time they were both parried and there is revenge. Guardbreaks weren't hitting, most heavies were being parried or dodged with sidewinder, most multi attacks were only feeding revenge. When Skorbrand went into revenge, Alernaken, who had been 1vx with his own nobushi, stood off while the lawbringer handled revenge as best he could as a parry would have gotten him knocked over (as it did with the raider who was killed off that), he then went in hot as soon as revenge finished which allowed the revive.

You also have to consider that Skorbrand was very spatially aware, near the end of that the raider went for the shoulder carry and was dodged, he was then dodged again and ate a heavy after the second attempt. While it might have been smarter to just cede the zone and go to the soldier lane while Skorbrand recovered or secure home zone which was flashing white, if they were getting involved in 3v1 the smart play was keeping up the waves of pressure with revives.

Madao_ru
05-22-2018, 05:56 PM
Maybe it`s better to weaken ganking team? When 2, 3 or 4 players are locked on you, they get armor and damage debuff.
p.s. this problem wouldn`t exist if almost every character didn`t have pushes and unblockable moves.

Devils-_-legacy
05-22-2018, 05:57 PM
That had to be the most friendly gank I've ever seen

SpaceJim12
05-22-2018, 06:02 PM
Honestly I see that in a different way. You have to bear in mind that at this level players are very good defensively (can't remember how many but some of them were in the 1v1 tournament the previous season) and right at the start when two did go for an attack at the same time they were both parried and there is revenge. Guardbreaks weren't hitting, most heavies were being parried or dodged with sidewinder, most multi attacks were only feeding revenge. When Skorbrand went into revenge, Alernaken, who had been 1vx with his own nobushi, stood off while the lawbringer handled revenge as best he could as a parry would have gotten him knocked over (as it did with the raider who was killed off that), he then went in hot as soon as revenge finished which allowed the revive.

Well, I understand they all good in parry, but still none of the attackers attempt to attack together, as all gunkers do.
As example, Nobu and Raider could use heavy+unblockable zone which means lonely Nobu should react oh both attacks, try to parry or dodge, and in the same moment LB use shove and long arm, done. Nobu on the ground taking hits. And I'm not sure if it's competitive Dominion or not, but in most situation one of three gunkers already got revenge as well, due to gear stats. I mean, when raider eat three hits, I believe with gear he already should have revenge and use it.
And again, as I said, none of them attack at the same time. They always switched up, and make this 1v1, while someone revive next challanger. In gunks people start revive only to bite defender to attack, cause this mean to become open to a hit.
I still don't know what means "top tier" of play, but if I were a LB from this vid, and got skilled Nobu and Raider on my side, I can bet 5k steel this Nobu will be done in couple seconds. 10 sec. max.
I met people who gunk so perfectly and smarty, that makes them...god tier players?

Devils-_-legacy
05-22-2018, 06:29 PM
I've never understood the top player argument I'm always matched with the players who have the highest kills count in dominon leaderboard are they considered "top tier" because the morojoity of those are in pre mades 24/7

Waynedetta40k
05-23-2018, 12:16 AM
Easy fix:

Step 1: Delete the point system as it is
Step 2: Adjust maps, make travling between points actually take some time
Step 3: Holding the objective is the only source of points, no boost of points from capturing it only holding it generates a fixed amount of points/time
Step 4: Adjust needed amount of points for a match to last a reasonable amount of time
Step 5: Rework op feats so feeding a deathball isnt a thing in any regard anymore

Deathballing will lead to assassins easylie snack points behind the deathball, there is nothing to feed to the deathball.
Players actually need to communicate which point will be attacked and those points will be contested in actual group fights.

Maybe remove revenge after that.

Kelson27
05-23-2018, 05:23 AM
I'm just going to add my usual 2 cents in (pun intended)...

You will not fix ganking by addressing dominion.

Gankers gonna gank. If you wanna fix dominion, fix dominion. If you wanna fix ganking, fix ganking. They are not one and the same nor tied to each other.

CandleInTheDark
05-23-2018, 06:06 AM
Well, I understand they all good in parry, but still none of the attackers attempt to attack together, as all gunkers do.
As example, Nobu and Raider could use heavy+unblockable zone which means lonely Nobu should react oh both attacks, try to parry or dodge, and in the same moment LB use shove and long arm, done. Nobu on the ground taking hits. And I'm not sure if it's competitive Dominion or not, but in most situation one of three gunkers already got revenge as well, due to gear stats. I mean, when raider eat three hits, I believe with gear he already should have revenge and use it.
And again, as I said, none of them attack at the same time. They always switched up, and make this 1v1, while someone revive next challanger. In gunks people start revive only to bite defender to attack, cause this mean to become open to a hit.
I still don't know what means "top tier" of play, but if I were a LB from this vid, and got skilled Nobu and Raider on my side, I can bet 5k steel this Nobu will be done in couple seconds. 10 sec. max.
I met people who gunk so perfectly and smarty, that makes them...god tier players?

One thing I would point put is that Skorbrand was very proactive in rolling when he didn't like the situation he was in, that scenario works best when one of them are behind you, when the lawbringer did manage an impaling charge he wound up far away from the other two and as I said before he dodged two raider stampede charges, getting a kill with a heavy in the process. I suspect that part of it is revenge and respecting his defence as well as his own positioning and changing positioning. Could they have done better? Maybe, but I do think you undersell Skorbrand also. Also remember this was before the parry changes, any parry meant a heavy and most whiffs were dodge punished. This was a competitive 4v4 by the by, there had been a round robin before this and a prize on the line.


I'm just going to add my usual 2 cents in (pun intended)...

You will not fix ganking by addressing dominion.

Gankers gonna gank. If you wanna fix dominion, fix dominion. If you wanna fix ganking, fix ganking. They are not one and the same nor tied to each other.

That's the thing though, it is dominion that needs to be fixed. Three or four should have an advantage against one person unless that person is very skilled, that is basic math and there is nothing wrong with that. What is wrong in this situation is that dominion is an objective based mode and there is no drawback to deathballing as there are in other games such as League of Legends which has bigger maps and places on those maps a player needs to be filling his role in. Managing a deathball and not losing out on the long term game takes a co-ordination and skill in LoL it does not in dominion and that is what needs to change.

Part of the solution might lie in finding a way to get skirmish more populated because that is where a rolling 4v4 belongs, but in terms of dominion the changes that need making are in making the objective more important.

Kelson27
05-23-2018, 06:26 AM
I disagree. You'll probably start winning games against gankers if dominion is more of an objective based mode, but you will not have addressed the actual problem directly - it will persist.

Griefers will continue to do things such as sit in a spawn and take you out 1 at a time, group up together and choose classes together such as a set of four cents/lawbringer/shugoki etc and only play to kill other players and spam their emotes for funsies.

I do not want to win games where I die over and over again because ganking is a problem, but we got the points. That is not fun. I absolutely agree being outnumbered should be a disadvantage, but it goes deeper than that. Disables, recovery, parrying, unblockables and revenge. There needs to be a way to address the problem, not the environment the problem exists in.

This is not the worst by a long shot, but to me this is ganking: http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/kd27/video/51360985

Sure, they should have run away/played differently etc. But that doesn't address the problem itself.

SpaceJim12
05-23-2018, 07:48 AM
One thing I would point put is that Skorbrand was very proactive in rolling when he didn't like the situation he was in, that scenario works best when one of them are behind you, when the lawbringer did manage an impaling charge he wound up far away from the other two and as I said before he dodged two raider stampede charges, getting a kill with a heavy in the process. I suspect that part of it is revenge and respecting his defence as well as his own positioning and changing positioning. Could they have done better? Maybe, but I do think you undersell Skorbrand also. Also remember this was before the parry changes, any parry meant a heavy and most whiffs were dodge punished. This was a competitive 4v4 by the by, there had been a round robin before this and a prize on the line.

Competitive dominion explains a lot. Gear stats make it all different. Yesterday, for example, I met Centurion who have almost infinite revenge, so that was almost impossible to kill him. And double refind Raider, that could kill my Shinobi with one zone and one light. I would deffenetly play competitive dominion myself, but sometines it took 20+ mins to find a game on PC.
Still, as Devils said, this a most friendly gunk. I still see no kick from enemy Nobu, no zone->softfeint->top light from Raider. In the end, he could spam it randomly every time, when Skorbrand focusing not on him. This will make indicator flashing and missed hits as well. And in the end, when Lawbringer did successfuly impale, all enemy Nobu should do is to hit her light chain, cause opponent were compleatly defencless. She stand right there, watching LB got away victim, and than she like "Oh, it's time to revive!". Without gear two lights with bleed from Nobu will be enough to end it.
Maybe I undersell someone in this action, but I was on lonely Nobu place so many times, that I just see a ton of mistakes and really soft moves from this "gunkers". Cause if I was in this situation nobody gives me a chance to do heavies and dodge heavies like lonely Nobu did. If I'm not playing with a noobs, of course. But if this a top tier play, there can't be noobs.


Griefers will continue to do things such as sit in a spawn and take you out 1 at a time, group up together and choose classes together such as a set of four cents/lawbringer/shugoki etc and only play to kill other players and spam their emotes for funsies.

I do not want to win games where I die over and over again because ganking is a problem, but we got the points. That is not fun. I absolutely agree being outnumbered should be a disadvantage, but it goes deeper than that. Disables, recovery, parrying, unblockables and revenge. There needs to be a way to address the problem, not the environment the problem exists in.

I should disagree with you. As I see in many multiplayer games, nobody want to loose games again and again. And if devs do something about dominion, gunkers start to loose over and over and they will be forced to choose another tactic to win. Now gunking is an easy way to win, and than humiliate loosing team. I see enough of this guys in a game. If you patience enough to answer and than win next match, this guys always leave after one loose.
Again, in Heroes of the Storm if team of gunkers start to loose, they always split up, or trying to travel map together, but it's useless mostly.
If you cut of feats from gunkers as well (like not enough points from kills) and let team make points for feats together, like if someone kill minions in mid, exp for feat go to every member of team, so in one moment gunker who fight 4v2/3 will get catapults and all this.

CandleInTheDark
05-23-2018, 08:35 AM
Competitive dominion explains a lot. Gear stats make it all different. Yesterday, for example, I met Centurion who have almost infinite revenge, so that was almost impossible to kill him. And double refind Raider, that could kill my Shinobi with one zone and one light. I would deffenetly play competitive dominion myself, but sometines it took 20+ mins to find a game on PC.
Still, as Devils said, this a most friendly gunk. I still see no kick from enemy Nobu, no zone->softfeint->top light from Raider. In the end, he could spam it randomly every time, when Skorbrand focusing not on him. This will make indicator flashing and missed hits as well. And in the end, when Lawbringer did successfuly impale, all enemy Nobu should do is to hit her light chain, cause opponent were compleatly defencless. She stand right there, watching LB got away victim, and than she like "Oh, it's time to revive!". Without gear two lights with bleed from Nobu will be enough to end it.
Maybe I undersell someone in this action, but I was on lonely Nobu place so many times, that I just see a ton of mistakes and really soft moves from this "gunkers". Cause if I was in this situation nobody gives me a chance to do heavies and dodge heavies like lonely Nobu did. If I'm not playing with a noobs, of course. But if this a top tier play, there can't be noobs.

Ah you mean competitive as in the rules in ranked. I would have to listen to it, I know that single pick was hard coded in, my guess off your observation revenge was popping slower is they would go by the ranked rules but I can't say for sure.

If I put my cynical head on, I would point out that the launch stream before this was an absolute embarrassment full of unlock tech the worst of which coming from the eventual winner who took $10,000 on the back of something quickly patched out after, the devs might have had a word about please don't do this. On the other hand they did use crowd control (Clutch took huge advantage of this), also if Eric flat out said that the top tier community workshop players say it isn't a problem at their tier I believe him because these are people who stream dominion matches so if it is a lie it would be a senseless one.

SpaceJim12
05-23-2018, 10:45 AM
If I put my cynical head on, I would point out that the launch stream before this was an absolute embarrassment full of unlock tech the worst of which coming from the eventual winner who took $10,000 on the back of something quickly patched out after, the devs might have had a word about please don't do this. On the other hand they did use crowd control (Clutch took huge advantage of this), also if Eric flat out said that the top tier community workshop players say it isn't a problem at their tier I believe him because these are people who stream dominion matches so if it is a lie it would be a senseless one.

And I might say this could happend. But we don't know.=)
Well I don't see a lot streams. I prefer to play the game, cause I got only couple hours daily, so I better spend it in game. Anyway, I can't say something about top tier streamers, but I could only judge depend on this video, and it's really looks too friendly, too polite to really show what is gunk in game.
I googled some videos, but mostly it's about Conq, Sugo, LB, who survived gunks. But look at this video: https://youtu.be/GsYJh7eJVP8?t=1m58s
I understand it's something not top tier, but here we see how guys just endlessly attack, using all stun moves they have. This howit happend all the time in Dominion for me.
Compared this video and prev video, and we can see the difference.

DrinkinMyStella
05-23-2018, 11:56 AM
one thing I think will help with the death ball meta, simply change the respawn time by half and flip spawns if opponents are on your Flag something as simple as that could make all the difference. A team can't spawn trap if you spawn on there flag, gives you time to regroup and compose your self. shorter respawn times just means you can hold out the gank time your team come back in.

Cuckk_Monkey
05-23-2018, 04:26 PM
Dude. Stop belittling the argument. I'm not saying that non assassins should be able to dodge better than assassins. You're being extreme. And assassins will still have a dodge advantage with deflects no matter what. Assassins should still have longer dodge distance, but characters like conq warden, nobu LB shigoki and HL have such short dodge distance that the smallest amount of tracking makes certain attacks UN-dodgable in the context of battle. Like the example I gave. blocking an attack or switching guard, or even DODGING a shaman pounce will confirm the attack anyways because the dodge isn't fast or long enough to dodge the bash. Especially when people are delaying CC moves like the conq bash. It's damn near impossible for certain character to dodge, but assassins seem to always have a chance to dodge even when blocking or switching guard, or even if the attack is delayed, assassins always have a chance but others don't and dodging is now essential to defense, which ultimately makes assassins defense BETTER than any non assassin, which is clearly *** backwards. Assassins shouldn't have better defense than LB or shigoki. and the fix is simply freeing non assassins of these burdens, the main offender being the guard switch buffer.

Devils-_-legacy
05-23-2018, 09:37 PM
Can I ask what players actually said it isn't a problem? As the majority of the players at top tier the few times ive faced them there alway grouped At least from my experience on this game

SpaceJim12
05-24-2018, 10:31 AM
Can I ask what players actually said it isn't a problem? As the majority of the players at top tier the few times ive faced them there alway grouped At least from my experience on this game

The right question here is what could we concider as top tier players. I mean, I met 300+ rep guys, who counter and block everything. No weak places. And still I can kick them again and again while HL spam UB from different directions. And he done.
The deathball problem lays not in "skill" part of the game. The deathball become so popular cause players understand that games have a lot of control moves. Kicks, bashes, GB, recoveries, parries.
Deathball just pick a right time, or endlessly spam attacks. You see someone parry? Kick, attack second before. You see someone dodged kick? Attack, light or heavy even.
That's why first video improves and shows nothing. In this video we just see three players trying to attack Nobu one after another. No kicks, no shoves from LB nothing that real deathball will use.

So the only conclusion we can make from this, the top tiers players don't see deathball problem just cause they avoid it. Place this Nobu into the common game with 100+ reps (and let them be premade) and we see another picture, and top tier player just instantly SEE the deathball problem.