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KotoKuraken
05-22-2018, 12:32 AM
She needs a buff.

Her damage is horrible.

Even with her bleeds, her damage is overtaken by everyone. Orochi does what she does, faster. Highlander does what she does, faster. Centurion does what she does, faster. There are so many people that can do way more damage than she can in a shorter timeframe. Her bleed doesn't even have a special mechanic to it other than making you wait for your enemy to die from the damage you already inflicted, which gives them a lot of time to kill you before they die.

She doesn't have anything special.

Her backdodge was the main factor of her winrate, getting her out of trouble when she needed to without consequence. However, that has been dramatically nerfed. That, mixed with her severe loss of damage that turned her sword into a butter knife, she needs some sort of tool to help her along. Orochi has backsteps that have the range she used to have, Shaman has a crapton of range, Gladiator has multiple bashes and unblockables, Shinobi has his range and maneuverability, and Berserker has hyperarmor on basically everything. PK needs some sort of extra move or mechanic to help her actually counter her enemy. She's being portrayed as an aggressor but has none of the tools to do that or counter attack the enemy as she is classified to do.

Everything she has, is done significantly better. Orochi basically has her speed, but does more damage, has more tools, and has the range she used to have. Every other assassin outdamages her while keeping pace. I did not main her before the rework, but I was training up with her before the rework in the hopes that she would be fun and balanced to play. I didn't expect her to get so completely useless.

BTTrinity
05-22-2018, 02:34 AM
I said people are over-reacting about her, but I was dead wrong... After all day of playing PK I've noticed the following.

Shaman is a better comparison for PK considering she has literally everything out of PK's kit or better.

Sham's dagger cancel is superior to PK in every possibly way, more utility due to being able to cancel in all directions and having more damage.

Sham's Gap Closer is superior to PK in every possible way, again more "Utility due to being able to cancel in all directions and having more damage."

Shaman has unblockables in her moveset: one of which is an infinitely better and easier to access CC option than PK could ever wish to have. A cancelable 500 ms UB bash thats guaranteed off a GB, can wallsplat and to top it all off... It turns into a 50+ damage cutscene when the target is bleeding.

PK's deflect is still... eh

What makes it the worst is most of her damage comes from bleed, a damage type thats negated by 2 stats on gear. (Debuff AND defense stack against bleed, if im not mistaking)

How does this chick have the title "Jack of all trades" when shes literally excels at one thing out of each persons kit.

There is no reason to use PK over the other 3 assassins right now, its kind of a shame.

My suggestion for her is:

Give her the option to cancel bleeds to any direction

Give her the option to lunge from any direction with the same frame-times as Orochi's and Shaman's gap closers.

reduce stamina costs ACROSS THE BOARD

Slightly increase damage across the board besides bleed moves. (find a good in-between what it is now, and what it was)

Right now, I can definitely see her falling down to B tier in both duels and 4v4's

bannex19
05-22-2018, 03:52 AM
On one hand I'm slightly tickled that the PK mains are struggling in the other hand I'm still miffed at ubis unconditional love for the one character that in all honesty shouldn't even be in the game, the shaman.

I know that this isn't a game of realism but it's also not a game of harry potter magic. There is just no explanation for a Bipolar homeless chick with a hatchet and a hunting knife being able to even scratch the armor of a lawbringer, kensei or even an orochi lol. Every time I see her ridiculous kit and hear her stupid screams I fail to see what people love about her. Really a dumb character.

At least when I was beat by a pk it was mostly because I made huge mistakes.

Bierbauchchief1
05-22-2018, 06:46 AM
I started playing her after her nerf and after playing her 6 reps in duel and dominion i feel like her heavys should do a bit more dmg. 20dmg on a 800ms attack that isnt confirmed off a gb is weird.Atleast her heavy opener should do like 25+dmg. This weekend there was a execution order over 10 executions and i struggled so hard to cemplete it just because you need perfect conditions to get an execution in a 1v1.
Otherwise im fine with her

Charmzzz
05-22-2018, 08:12 AM
Yeah, they completely destroyed her. I am a Rep 50 PK, played her since S1. I know she was too strong back then, and she received plenty of nerfs, mainly damage of dodge-attacks and the zone attack was targeted. And with this patch now they nerfed everything on her damage-wise, even dodge-attacks again.

I cannot understand this. Zerker got Hyperarmor everywhere plus 400ms Lights after a Heavy feint. Kensei got an Unblockable from neutral and plenty of soft-feints plus new moves and chains together with damage buffs. Conq got guaranteed Unblockables, damage buffs, faster Lights, infinite chain and probably the best OOS pressure in the game.

What did PK get?

- Stunning Tap 0.5 which deals massive 10 (!!!) damage compared to Raiders dealing 18 damage (plus it stuns and is way better due to the Unblockable it can be soft-feinted from)
- Nerfs on almost EVERY attack move, Lights, Heavies, Zone, all Dodge-Attacks (due to the bleed followup nerf also side-dodge-attacks got nerfed)
- A buff on the MOST USELESS Deflect in the game due to the amount of Hyperarmor they put on everything
- BUGFIXES on her ability to soft-feint Heavies into Light Cancels or GBs which were ALREADY in her kit in S1 and which they broke in September 2017 when they removed Timesnap

I have played her enough over the last days, she is B-Tier at best now. As PK you cannot even use your bug-fixed soft-feints mostly because people got better and PK has no way to force mistakes like ALOT of other Characters can do. The Dagger Cancel as an "Opener" is bs. It even gets parried regularly after a weekend because players know you will do it. I remember Roman calling it a "way to open up defensive players" in the Den where they showed the PK "Rework" first. The move is complete garbage from neutral because you cannot chain into anything from it, it deals only 10 bleed damage and is even blockable / parryable. Compare that to Toe Stab on Glad, which is a similar move but muuuch better...

PK is dead. I will now start to go for the FOTM Characters, too. Zerker or Orochi, not decided yet.

Siegfried-Z
05-22-2018, 10:16 AM
Everything said here is right..

The OOS punish or light parry is now very weak...

But the fact u can now makes ur opponent bleed easier and that it is now stacking are kind of balancing that i believe ? :confused:

I had the same feeling in first impressing when i went to training mode with her but after i went to 4v4 again and did kind of very big score still like 18-0 etc .. while i am only rep 9 with and have a 1.72 KD Ratio.

I see here she is compared a lot to Shaman.. and on the paper yes Shaman has so much more options and strong things in her kit.. But in real game.. Pk is still faster on everything.. lights and Zone which in my Opinion makes her stronger.

In 1v1 in a Sham VS PK matchup i would definitly pick up my PK.

But yes against ****ing turtle like Warden or LB i would take Sham for sure (rep 11 with).

Specialkha
05-22-2018, 10:30 AM
Yeah, they completely destroyed her. I am a Rep 50 PK, played her since S1. I know she was too strong back then, and she received plenty of nerfs, mainly damage of dodge-attacks and the zone attack was targeted. And with this patch now they nerfed everything on her damage-wise, even dodge-attacks again.

I cannot understand this. Zerker got Hyperarmor everywhere plus 400ms Lights after a Heavy feint. Kensei got an Unblockable from neutral and plenty of soft-feints plus new moves and chains together with damage buffs. Conq got guaranteed Unblockables, damage buffs, faster Lights, infinite chain and probably the best OOS pressure in the game.

What did PK get?

- Stunning Tap 0.5 which deals massive 10 (!!!) damage compared to Raiders dealing 18 damage (plus it stuns and is way better due to the Unblockable it can be soft-feinted from)
- Nerfs on almost EVERY attack move, Lights, Heavies, Zone, all Dodge-Attacks (due to the bleed followup nerf also side-dodge-attacks got nerfed)
- A buff on the MOST USELESS Deflect in the game due to the amount of Hyperarmor they put on everything
- BUGFIXES on her ability to soft-feint Heavies into Light Cancels or GBs which were ALREADY in her kit in S1 and which they broke in September 2017 when they removed Timesnap

I have played her enough over the last days, she is B-Tier at best now. As PK you cannot even use your bug-fixed soft-feints mostly because people got better and PK has no way to force mistakes like ALOT of other Characters can do. The Dagger Cancel as an "Opener" is bs. It even gets parried regularly after a weekend because players know you will do it. I remember Roman calling it a "way to open up defensive players" in the Den where they showed the PK "Rework" first. The move is complete garbage from neutral because you cannot chain into anything from it, it deals only 10 bleed damage and is even blockable / parryable. Compare that to Toe Stab on Glad, which is a similar move but muuuch better...

PK is dead. I will now start to go for the FOTM Characters, too. Zerker or Orochi, not decided yet.

You played an OP character for more than a year, and now, you are crying she had been brought down in line? Are you kidding?

Alustar.
05-22-2018, 11:44 AM
You played an OP character for more than a year, and now, you are crying she had been brought down in line? Are you kidding?

She want OP for the whole year. Or did you miss the part where Sharma said she had revived several nerfs before now?
There are no OP heroes in for honor, just idiots who don't want to change strategies and adapt their play style under different conditions.

Specialkha
05-22-2018, 11:54 AM
So Tier list are useless then? S tier does not exist?

Alustar.
05-22-2018, 12:07 PM
So Tier list are useless then? S tier does not exist?

I've said multiple times that player made tier listings are not only pointless but lead to infighting more often than not. You are free to pander to them as much as you want, but it's not going to help you play any better. The only thing that will improve your game play is move recognition which comes from learning a multitude of characters, particularly those you don't do well against.

Specialkha
05-22-2018, 12:12 PM
Mmh, ok, Troll spotted. I'm out, bye.

Alustar.
05-22-2018, 12:28 PM
Oh no, someone's opinion differs from my own!
AND
I
CAN'T
TAKE IT!
what so I'm a troll now because I believe player skill will always trump out over arbitrary player made (Not dev, NOT DEV made) tier listing.
Cool story, kid.

Kryltic
05-22-2018, 12:32 PM
All this thread does is scream that there's a lot of salty Peacekeeper players on here who don't like the fact they have to actually play the game and not cheese a win :')

Charmzzz
05-22-2018, 12:36 PM
You played an OP character for more than a year, and now, you are crying she had been brought down in line? Are you kidding?

Alright Bro, let's do this:

The reason why PK was in S-Tier was her Zone option select, her dodge recovery and her backdodge range and recovery. With her dodge recovery nerfed to 600ms (worse than Shaman), her backdodge range and recovery nerfed HARD (500ms to 800ms, range normalized) AND her Zone nerfed by 5 Damage (but still costs half her Stamina) she is completely useless.

What you do NOT understand is that she was "OP" because of all those things above combined. Now they nerfed ALL of them super hard and PK is now B-Tier at best, which was not the intented way of Reworks.

You come in now and tell me that I am crying because PK is "brought down in line"? Are YOU kidding ME? She is not brought down in line with Zerker, Kensei, Conq, Highlander, Orochi, Shaman etc, she is dumped and now waaay below them.

Charmzzz
05-22-2018, 12:39 PM
All this thread does is scream that there's a lot of salty Peacekeeper players on here who don't like the fact they have to actually play the game and not cheese a win :')

No. I want every Character to be balanced, and I play other Characters too. It is just that all the other Reworks were good for the Characters. PK's "Rework" is plain BS and massively overnerfed. They nerfed ALL her damage numbers except for her Deflect (which is by far the worst in the game) and her GB-triple Stab which is on par with other GB punishes. It is just too much, compare the numbers and speeds here please:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=0

Specialkha
05-22-2018, 12:41 PM
Oh, I do know she is not op anymore. That is what I am saying. She had been nerfed, maybe a bit too much. But I do not mind it, you have played with an OP character for more than a year, meaning, you won far more than you should have. Now, time to feel the shaft a little. The wheel turns.

Btw, Skorbrand puts her in Stier still after nerf. Or maybe, he has no clue as well?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bk6y7jw2ujLrjm0Zzbb4aEZUV13gyGoy-IobrkfNgaY/edit#gid=0

Specialkha
05-22-2018, 12:42 PM
Oh no, someone's opinion differs from my own!
AND
I
CAN'T
TAKE IT!
what so I'm a troll now because I believe player skill will always trump out over arbitrary player made (Not dev, NOT DEV made) tier listing.
Cool story, kid.

So %win rate above all others characters means she is not stronger than others, but just that only better players play her? Ok, kid.

Charmzzz
05-22-2018, 12:43 PM
But the fact u can now makes ur opponent bleed easier and that it is now stacking are kind of balancing that i believe ? :confused:

I see here she is compared a lot to Shaman.. and on the paper yes Shaman has so much more options and strong things in her kit.. But in real game.. Pk is still faster on everything.. lights and Zone which in my Opinion makes her stronger.



How you make opponents bleed easier? People already adapted to the Dagger Cancel which deals marginal damage (10 bleed, come one...) and bleed does not give PK anything regarding mechanics.

PK is NOT faster on everything. 500ms Light from neutral, pretty much what everyone has now. Second Light is 400ms, Zerker, Orochi and Aramusha are on par here. The only faster move on PK is Zone @400ms which costs half your stamina and is ~80% blocked in my skill bracket.

Alustar.
05-22-2018, 12:44 PM
Oh, I do know she is not op anymore. That is what I am saying. She had been nerfed, maybe a bit too much. But I do not mind it, you have played with an OP character for more than a year, meaning, you won far more than you should have. Now, time to feel the shaft a little. The wheel turns.

Btw, Skorbrand puts her in Stier still after nerf. Or maybe, he has no clue as well?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bk6y7jw2ujLrjm0Zzbb4aEZUV13gyGoy-IobrkfNgaY/edit#gid=0

The point of buffing and nerfing heroes is not so that "insert hated hero X feels the shaft this month" it's so that balance is maintained within a game's infrastructure. That comment is exactly what's wrong with this community.

Charmzzz
05-22-2018, 12:44 PM
So %win rate above all others charaters means she is not stronger than others, but just that only better players play her? Ok, kid.

Oh god, no, you didnt make yourself look like a biased i*iot now, did you?

58% Winrate in SEASON 4 in the top 2.5% bracket! Before parry changes! Before backdodge range and recovery nerf! That's simply outdated.

Alustar.
05-22-2018, 12:46 PM
So %win rate above all others charaters means she is not stronger than others, but just that only better players play her? Ok, kid.

Oh you mean that 2% above most other characters? Pk being at 56% and the next highest at 54 if I remember correctly? Lol try harder.

Charmzzz
05-22-2018, 12:47 PM
Oh, I do know she is not op anymore. That is what I am saying. She had been nerfed, maybe a bit too much. But I do not mind it, you have played with an OP character for more than a year, meaning, you won far more than you should have. Now, time to feel the shaft a little. The wheel turns.

Btw, Skorbrand puts her in Stier still after nerf. Or maybe, he has no clue as well?



Oh god, another post to make yourself look like an i*iot... NO, we and the Devs do not want to play the Flavor of the Month game. They always said that they want to bring everyone up on the same level.

BTW did you EVEN LOOK in that linked document? PK is not S-Tier in 4v4 anymore, and I bet she will even fall out of A-Tier there soon. On Duel I simply disagree, because if you play her S-Tier like you would only do the Zone Option Select which is super boring.

Specialkha
05-22-2018, 12:52 PM
She is still S tier in Duel regardless because her zone option select is strong. You may not like it to rely on a single move, but what can Orochi players say then? They waited a full year to get more options.

Dominion is more of a mess, especially in pubs games. In "ranked" dominion, that tier list has more sense, not in pubs. Meaning you can carry hard as PK in pubs. Obv, LB is still a hard carry with all his bombs, etc...

Alustar.
05-22-2018, 12:54 PM
She is still S tier in Duel regardless because her zone option select is strong. You may not like it to rely on a single move, but what can Orochi players say then? They waited a full year to get more option. Dominion is more of a mess, especially in Pubs games. In "ranked" dominion, that tier list has sense, not in pubs.

Do you even think before you start typing? How is that at all logical, let alone a healthy mentality for a game and its community? "It happened to this class, so deal with it." That's not a comment with balance and quality of life in mind, that's utter spite and malice.

Specialkha
05-22-2018, 12:57 PM
Do you even think before you start typing? How is that at all logical, let alone a healthy mentality for a game and its community? "It happened to this class, so deal with it." That's not a comment with balance and quality of life in mind, that's utter spite and malice.

Yes, it is. Finally, PK mains feel the shaft that everybody else have been feeling since a very long time. Apart from that, PK is still very playable but ppl will always go to the easy option.

Alustar.
05-22-2018, 01:02 PM
Yes, it is. Finally, PK mains feel the shaft that everybody else have been feeling since a very long time. Apart from that, PK is still very playable but ppl will always go to the easy option.

So you don't care about actual balance, you just want classes you hate to be inferior. Got it.

Charmzzz
05-22-2018, 01:17 PM
Yes, it is. Finally, PK mains feel the shaft that everybody else have been feeling since a very long time. Apart from that, PK is still very playable but ppl will always go to the easy option.

Are you serious? Sounds like a really hateful mindset, I am feeling sad for you now. Since you are such a biased and hateful person, I will ignore you from now on. Have a nice day.

Specialkha
05-22-2018, 01:33 PM
Are you serious? Sounds like a really hateful mindset, I am feeling sad for you now. Since you are such a biased and hateful person, I will ignore you from now on. Have a nice day.

It is not like I care about what you think. Pk is still very playable and even still considered Stier in duel. What more do you want? You do not like the playstyle? Switch characters like most others players did.

Specialkha
05-22-2018, 01:34 PM
So you don't care about actual balance, you just want classes you hate to be inferior. Got it.

I care about actual balance, even more than you. But I find amusing to see all PK mains whine now, while they were telling to "git gud" to everyone else a few months back.

Alustar.
05-22-2018, 01:46 PM
Yes, it is. Finally, PK mains feel the shaft that everybody else have been feeling since a very long time. Apart from that, PK is still very playable but ppl will always go to the easy option.


I care about actual balance, even more than you. But I find amusing to see all PK mains whine now, while they were telling to "git gud" to everyone else a few months back.

I can think of no finer example of what a hypocrite looks like, thank you for defining it so wonderfully for the rest of the class.
As such, I'm going to follow Charmzzz lead, I refuse to try and have a logical discourse with anyone so blatantly biased and this vindictive that he will throw the health of the game and the community out the window just to have characters he doesn't like get nerfed into the ground.

KitingFatKidsEZ
05-22-2018, 02:17 PM
No,

1. PK Zone is still the best button in neutral in the entire game.
Insane for option select parries as long as you dont spam it all the time. Covers an insane distance forward on the first hit (effectively removing one of her few weaknesses). Only assassin who is good at clearing minions in dom (Id count serk as "decent", the rest are legit dog****e).

2. Her movement speed is still the best in the game. Run speed is the new backdodge. Travel speed wins games in dom.

3. Is a vanilla knight and therefore has access to all the bombs.

If u want to do something small, make her dagger cancel like shamans soft feint into bleed (make sure to adjust the speed as well!) and increase the damage to 12.
The character with the highest base movement speed in the game shouldnt be the best at fighting as well. Leave the character that has been dominating the game since release below S-tier for a while. Its good for the game.

Specialkha
05-22-2018, 02:25 PM
You do realize that PK mains will throw rocks at you for saying that PK is fine?

David_gorda
05-22-2018, 02:30 PM
Pk is still s tier even after nerf. It should have Been nerfed more but its a step in the right direction. I Guess most kids that played this op hero just going play the next fotm hero instead Of practice more and learn to outplay your opponent instead Of needing to use the most op character in the history Of for honor.

BTTrinity
05-22-2018, 02:57 PM
How do you guys not see it as an issue that PK only has 1 or 2 good moves... (Just like Orochi, yet he was bottom tier so nobody's going to give him ****) and because PK was Top Tier, its fine for her to be shafted?

Thank god the devs dont balance a hero to be ****e all because "She was top tier for a while" it's stupid and unreasonable.

If a 500ms zone is what it takes for PK to have a good kit outside of that, im sure MANY MANY MANY pk players would GLADLY take it.

Devils-_-legacy
05-22-2018, 02:58 PM
I agree with some parts of the "rework" like some of the damage tone down on lights zone but I thought they would of gave pks more combos or something to give them more options then zone select that most pks seen to rely on

XJadeDragoonX
05-22-2018, 03:04 PM
She's not that weak tbh. But......

She spent the last year at the very top of the tier list. She should suck for a little

BTTrinity
05-22-2018, 03:06 PM
She spent the last year at the very top of the tier list. She should suck for a little

This mentality is NOT healthy for game balance, and I really hope the devs dont have this going on.

KitingFatKidsEZ
05-22-2018, 03:13 PM
She does not suck.

Shes just average. Youd still pick her over a lot of other characters in many situations. Fix half the characters in the game to where they are actually playable, then we can talk about buffing PK.

Alustar.
05-22-2018, 03:26 PM
This mentality is NOT healthy for game balance, and I really hope the devs dont have this going on.

Thank you for this. I know we very rarely see eye to eye on much, but it's good to see we are on the same side of this one.

Alustar.
05-22-2018, 03:28 PM
She does not suck.

Shes just average. Youd still pick her over a lot of other characters in many situations. Fix half the characters in the game to where they are actually playable, then we can talk about buffing PK.

How much play time do you have on PK both before and after these changes?

KitingFatKidsEZ
05-22-2018, 03:36 PM
How much play time do you have on PK both before and after these changes?

Are you even using your brain at this point? This is a next level stupid rethorical bait.

The rework has been out for like half a week and her broken *** state has been the norm since release.

I have played her after the rework. And ive made people ragequit in duel all the same.
As i said she gets a solid "average" rating for pure fighting. Besides that she "only" has her insane feats and movement (i cri everytiem).

Meanwhile id still rather quit the game than having to play half the characters that this game has. Doesnt feel valk at all.

Alustar.
05-22-2018, 04:11 PM
Are you even using your brain at this point? This is a next level stupid rethorical bait.

The rework has been out for like half a week and her broken *** state has been the norm since release.

I have played her after the rework. And ive made people ragequit in duel all the same.
As i said she gets a solid "average" rating for pure fighting. Besides that she "only" has her insane feats and movement (i cri everytiem).

Meanwhile id still rather quit the game than having to play half the characters that this game has. Doesnt feel valk at all.

I had asked that to establish a point of reference that we could actually have some form of conversation about this, but seeing as how that's not possible here's some things:
Saying you've made players rage quit with the reworked PK isn't evidence she is in a good place, is anecdotal at best. Case and point, players were using orochi, conquerer and Kensei and performing well. That doesn't mean they didn't need help.
And if you have no prior experience with peacekeeper, you are arguing from a biased, non informed stand point. Which is counter productive to anything argument.

KitingFatKidsEZ
05-22-2018, 04:19 PM
I had asked that to establish a point of reference that we could actually have some form of conversation about this,

I only read until here.

translation = rethorical bait so i can validate my point of view by acting as if i respond to a legit argument

meanwhile its straight up the most weak as bait i have ever seen. Doesnt even make sense from a logical perspective. Really no reason to have a discussion with someone like that.

Knight_Raime
05-22-2018, 04:29 PM
No. While she lacks an identity she's not in a bad spot right now. She's still S tier according to the competitive tier list. (which was updated post reworks)
She should be revisited at some point to be given an identity So she's more beyond 400ms lights and a stupidly good zone. But there are other heros that require attention over her.
She shouldn't be revisited until the rest of the OG cast has been touched with a major balance pass and/or rework.

Devils-_-legacy
05-22-2018, 04:30 PM
Not really someone who mains her would be able to give a more detailed feedback on the changes then some who doesn't play her and only knows her kit from fighting against her. I can agree tho warden Valk warlord need some sort of update before pk is looked at again

KotoKuraken
05-22-2018, 04:34 PM
Not really someone who mains her would be able to give a more detailed feedback on the changes then some who doesn't play her and only knows her kit from fighting against her

I seriously doubt PK is still S tier. Her best move, her zone, is easily bested by Orochi's Riptide Strike in speed, range, damage, and stamina cost.
That's pretty bad when the best move a character has is overshadowed by another character competely. Right now, she's like Nobushi without the range, damage boost, hidden stance, or kicks

Knight_Raime
05-22-2018, 04:36 PM
I seriously doubt PK is still S tier. Her best move, her zone, is easily bested by Orochi's Riptide Strike in speed, range, damage, and stamina cost.
That's pretty bad when the best move a character has is overshadowed by another character competely. Right now, she's like Nobushi without the range, damage boost, hidden stance, or kicks

Riptide does one thing. and is easily baited for a light parry punish. Pk's zone can interrupt pretty much anything in the game on reaction and be canceled to deflect a follow up if the move had armor.
She still is S tier.

KotoKuraken
05-22-2018, 04:41 PM
Riptide does one thing. and is easily baited for a light parry punish. Pk's zone can interrupt pretty much anything in the game on reaction and be canceled to deflect a follow up if the move had armor.
She still is S tier.

I've had too many times where Orochi interrupts her zone with just a light attack, and the light attack even does more damage than her zone does. Riptide can be used with a very loose reaction timing to further outdamage most attacks in the game with 0 consequence. She's definitely not S tier at all. She's hiding behind a one trick gig that takes half your stamina to use and can be easily countered

Knight_Raime
05-22-2018, 04:49 PM
I've had too many times where Orochi interrupts her zone with just a light attack, and the light attack even does more damage than her zone does. Riptide can be used with a very loose reaction timing to further outdamage most attacks in the game with 0 consequence. She's definitely not S tier at all. She's hiding behind a one trick gig that takes half your stamina to use and can be easily countered

Yeaaaa. I'm going to take the word of someone who's actually won several tournaments and understands the game at a deeper level over you. You're clearly doing something wrong if you're zone is being interrupted. Riptide is best used on moves that are dedicated. Things like bashes and zones. Some mix ups. Pk's zone can be used against pretty much everything sans combo spam. Pk's zone is far more flexible and safe.

Sraight from the tier list for pk: Peacekeeper - The nerfs hit nearly every part of what made her the best, yet she remains extremely potent thanks to her zone and surprisingly her dagger cancel, which is much harder to react to than its speed indicates thanks to having very little animation.

Orochi is higher up in S tier by 1 placement. And i'm assuming it's because of the better damage profile as storm rush isn't strong atm due to being able to light him out of it (or in pk's case an easy zone) and that the follow up attack can't be delayed. Meaning it's easy to react block his follow up light. And riptide is currently bugged with not continuing combos when blocked either when you have revenge or when the opponent is OOS. Which means both moves that would be decent OOS pressure he doesn't have. The tier list maker considers both SR and riptide to not be good at the moment. But what sits rochi up there is his new tri directional 400ms lights, good delay on his side dodge attacks, and good chains.

Devils-_-legacy
05-22-2018, 04:53 PM
I've only got pk to rep 8so I'm not that good with her but I've got to agree the nurf hit the right area her zone and lights but didn't give you a incentive to use anything other then her zone I wouldnt call her s tier at least not in in dominon A tier easily. After her nurf just harder to get a kill if they doesn't rely on zone select i personally have to rely on triple stab and dagger cancels to bleed them out so I like the bleed stacks but the heavy nurf was a bit of over kill imo I havnt really had an execution since they changed it

Knight_Raime
05-22-2018, 04:59 PM
I've only got pk to rep 8so I'm not that good with her but I've got to agree the nurf hit the right area her zone and lights but didn't give you a incentive to use anything other then her zone I wouldnt call her s tier at least not in in dominon A tier easily. After her nurf just harder to get a kill if they doesn't rely on zone select i personally have to rely on triple stab and dagger cancels to bleed them out so I like the bleed stacks but the heavy nurf was a bit of over kill imo I havnt really had an execution since they changed it

I think pk has always been A tier in 4v4. She's currently placed there with shaman being the only S tier.
Pk's dagger cancel in duels is pretty legit. You can delay the cancel too making it come out at like. 333ms or slightly faster with a frame perfect delay. and it's telegraphed really poorly too compared to shaman's cancels into her bleed poke. Her being able to delay it and being able to use it at pretty much anytime on top of still having an amazing zone is what's keeping her in S tier. She wouldn't be S tier without her zone though.

Devils-_-legacy
05-22-2018, 05:08 PM
She was classed as s i think shamans realease but i may be wrong but when I heard rework I hoped they would of extended the window to be more like stunning tap but it's working atm so I can't complain but was more of a rebalance I think they just messed up with the tile of rework you expect a beserker orochi treatment. Having to rely on zone has to be my biggest issue with pk feels cheesy if i had more incentive to use the combos I would play her a bit more then getting her to 180 and shelving her

Knight_Raime
05-22-2018, 05:11 PM
Tbf I hoped they would of extended the window to be more like stunning tap but it's working atm so I can't complain that my biggest issue with pk she has to rely on her zone if I had more incentive to use the combos I would play her a bit more

my only current issue is that her GB soft feint is forced at 400ms. Meaning she can't soft feint GB things like glad/cent/mushu's heavies anymore.

Devils-_-legacy
05-22-2018, 05:12 PM
Sorry I added more lol and I thought that was lag but then again I can belive that as she has a new weird oss gb

SpaceJim12
05-22-2018, 05:15 PM
Specialkha, if you really think PK were OP I have bad news for you, you never met Gladiator, and you never met Berserker in season 5.
The real OP is still out there. HL just stand there and don't understand what are you talking about, cause he barely noticed PK in past and deffenetly will not noticed her at all now.
In Dominion PK still could do enough as I can see, but even I understand that something wrong with PKs, cause I always do my best on Shinobi to deal with one PK, and last weekend I just crushed two PK in the zone. And if in 4v4 you still have some tricks (and good feats) I think in duel she really became useless.
I saw month to month how PKs slowly became dodge turtles, which realy only on dodge attacks, cause they just can't keep on pressure.

I can't judge of nerfs buff, cause I play on PK like...one time per month, but I think when you said "rework" you at least add on some fresh moves, compared with DLC heroes. And I should agree that compared with Orochi PK nerf looks like cruel mockery, cause Orochi maybe was limited in kit, and boring to play, but he deffenetly wasn't weak. Maybe on same spot as PK was.

Vakris_One
05-22-2018, 05:16 PM
I would say PK's damage nerf was too much but she is still very viable because they didn't mess with the speed of her attacks and zone. She can still do everything she did before but will need to get roughly 3 more hits to kill someone now. Her dagger cancel may not be Shaman levels of useful but it is still an extra bit of kit to use.

Her damage nerf was a bit excessive and in my opinion that has bumped her down to A-tier but she is still very usable. The side dodge nerfs on her are a little much as I believe she now has the longest side dodge recovery out of all the assassins. The back dodge nerf is fine, she's still on par with other assassins there.

In my opinion she only needs a slight dial back on the damage nerfs and her side dodge recovery should be the same as Shaman who also throws side dodge heavies. Damage-wise, they should find a middle ground in between what her damage numbers used to be (which was far too high) and what they are now (which is slightly too low).

Knight_Raime
05-22-2018, 05:34 PM
I would say PK's damage nerf was too much but she is still very viable because they didn't mess with the speed of her attacks and zone. She can still do everything she did before but will need to get roughly 3 more hits to kill someone now. Her dagger cancel may not be Shaman levels of useful but it is still an extra bit of kit to use.

Her damage nerf was a bit excessive and in my opinion that has bumped her down to A-tier but she is still very usable. The side dodge nerfs on her are a little much as I believe she now has the longest side dodge recovery out of all the assassins. The back dodge nerf is fine, she's still on par with other assassins there.

In my opinion she only needs a slight dial back on the damage nerfs and her side dodge recovery should be the same as Shaman who also throws side dodge heavies. Damage-wise, they should find a middle ground in between what her damage numbers used to be (which was far too high) and what they are now (which is slightly too low).

Technically speaking with her being able to have bleed up forever she doesn't need to even confirm hits for kills now. Largely most of my kills with her lately have been from chipping someone that I had bleeding because that kills people. Also I would argue PK's dagger cancel is better. Shaman really only goes for top bleed since it's 400ms the side ones are 500ms and are too easily blocked. And her bleed cancels are not as good as pk's option wise. Pk can cancel into her bleed poke from any heavy and from her zone. Shaman's raw cancel into bleed has no range. and shamans zone is objectively worse than pk's. Finally pk's bleed stab is far less telegraphed. And lack of telegraphing is one of pk's biggest strengths when combined with her speed on delayed feints and delayed lights.

500ms side dodge recovery is stupid and should never be a thing. It let you avoid everything easily. 600ms is standard for most heros and it's fast enough to avoid/punish most things. 500ms side dodge recovery let you not only dodge kensei's top heavy mix up game by reacting to the heavy indicator but it also let you punish anything he canceled into because you recover so quickly. Versus 600ms recovery where you can do all of that sans avoid/punish his light cancel. Shaman should also lose the 500ms side dodge recovery. It brings no actual positive benefit to the game.

KitingFatKidsEZ
05-22-2018, 05:36 PM
The side dodge nerfs on her are a little much as I believe she now has the longest side dodge recovery out of all the assassins.


According to this spreadsheet which gets updated fairly regularly:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=1037667970

the only assassin with a faster side dodge recovery is shaman.

There are others who are faster (Highlander off stance, warden) and raider gets his really early input window for gb and top light on side dodge. But not assassins.

Knight_Raime
05-22-2018, 05:41 PM
According to this spreadsheet which gets updated fairly regularly:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=1037667970

the only assassin with a faster side dodge recovery is shaman.

There are others who are faster (Highlander off stance, warden) and raider gets his really early input window on side dodge. But not assassins.

Warden has a 500ms recovery on side dodge but you can't GB off of that because you start up bash. Which can be used to punish a handful of things but is not that great at it. You have to wait. So that puts his input for a GB punish at 600ms. So his being 500ms is better at avoiding. Not punishing. HL has 400ms when in OF. But it's still easy to keep him out of OF so that's fine. and raider can just input gb mid dodge.

But yeah. 600ms is fairly normal on side dodges and works well enough for most avoid/punishments whilst still being at risk for yourself if you get baited. where is 500ms on side dodge is hard to actively punish.

Charmzzz
05-22-2018, 06:05 PM
Knight_Raime: it is not the dodge recovery, nor all those damage nerfs. It is the combination of them all together and giving PK almost nothing new...

Knight_Raime
05-22-2018, 06:10 PM
Alright so here is a proper post since I was coming off as a tool bag.

PK is S tier because:
~400ms follow ups that have little telegraphing to them.
~access to a bleed poke cancel from any combo and her zone that can be delayed to have a window of 300ms to react to and also has very little telegraphing.
~Access to a soft feint GB that catches most things beyond fast heavies (600ms or faster.) Which gives her more bleed damage and sets up her optimal punishes. Making her one of the easier heros to do their max punishes.
~A 400ms zone that has virtually non existent recovery. Can do a bleed cancel from it. OR can hard feint and deflect if used on HA attacks. And it can be option selected.

Rochi is S tier because:
~good chain flow
~good side dodge attack flexibility
~Tri directional 400ms lights
~zone can be sprinkled in after feints on occasion
~riptide is decent for dodge punishing committed moves

PK's zone is better than riptide because:
~Faster being at 400ms
~is an option select
~can interrupt all mix ups better
~follow up is harder to deal with because her bleed poke is less telegraphed than rochi's light even when both are delayed
~riptide is easy to bait into a parry or a GB (feint into GB immediately catches riptide on back dodge) Where as pk's zone lacks telegraphing and basically can't be feint baited.

Not that these moves should be compared to begin with. since Riptide is just a good dodge attack but pk's is an option select tool that's far better at dealing with mix ups. Rochi also isn't great at dealing with full block (mainly conq but still not great vs others) where as PK can ignore full block with her soft feint into GB. Rochi got significantly better compared to where he was at. But because riptide can't be used against mix ups effectively and gives no OOS pressure and storm rush is bugged and lost the flexibility of it's delayed input and soft feint into GB rochi isn't as strong as he could be.

tri directional 400ms lights that have an effective reaction window of 233ms is nothing to scoff at. But at this point until his bugs are fixed (and a potential small buff to SR) rochi still isn't as good as his rework makes him sound. He's S tier though. Which is still really good. Pk's "rework" gave her a very good cancel tool. But otherwise brought her in line with other heros. Which was needed. She currently lacks an identity. But she's not in a rough spot. Just a worse spot than before. Which really isn't a big deal. If you think she's bad now then all I can say is either you don't get the game on a greater meta level thought wise or you're just not using her to her full potential. She's still really good. And even if she had been bumped down to A tier that's better than a good portion of the cast that exists. A tier is where heros should shoot to be. S tier heros are the heros most likely riding the line in terms of broken.

Knight_Raime
05-22-2018, 06:13 PM
Knight_Raime: it is not the dodge recovery, nor all those damage nerfs. It is the combination of them all together and giving PK almost nothing new...

I'm aware the "rework" was majority nerf. I'm saying it's not a big deal. and that she's still plenty good. Her dagger cancel is really good. Especially because soft feints can actually be delayed. (time snap prevented this. And no one bothered re testing this after it was gone till like a few days ago. check Freeze's video on it.) I'm not blind/ignorant to the fact that pk mains don't feel good because their kit feels lacking right now. I'm just contesting the argument that she's bad now. I do agree that she has no identity and should be revisited at some point.

But i'd rather the rest of the OG heros get touched before we look at pk again.

Charmzzz
05-22-2018, 06:36 PM
But i'd rather the rest of the OG heros get touched before we look at pk again.

Let's hope this is not the case. I play Glad for now, will switch to Zerker, Orochi or Shaman cause they are simply MUCH better than PK. Why did they even touch her if they do this utter garbage only...

CandleInTheDark
05-22-2018, 06:47 PM
I do agree that she has no identity and should be revisited at some point.

It's not just the fact that she has no identity, it is that they trampled all over what identity she had with every change until they have outright stated in this last set of changes that she now has a different identity. She has only ever been a counter attacker in name, this is just the first time they admitted that they were going for something else with these changes.

She needed the nerfs if they were set on keeping her 500-400 lights and 400 zone but they could have kept her fast in the dodge whether with a closer or as part of that identity having just one fraction more dodge and otherwise actually gone with her paradigm in that she was suppsoed to be a counter attacker not someone standing in your face and unleashing quick attacks.

I am not saying she is bad, I don't think in a 1v1 sense she is and some of the complaints have been exaggerated, I am saying that when they focus on getting her to use quick lights in order to get to finishers and nerf everything counter attacking about her in order to keep those lights fast they might as well just call her an harasser.

Charmzzz
05-22-2018, 07:01 PM
Where exactly was she a counter-attacker in the first place with her garbage deflect which gets negated by almost every Character due to hyperarmor spam? Or the massively nerfed dodge-attacks which other Characters can do much better? Did they really call her counter-attacker because of the Zone option select? Was that intended to work this way?

Thing is, 500-400ms Lights are pretty common after all these Reworks. And they get blocked 90% in my skill bracket. The only way to deal damage from neutral now is heavy-soft-feint-dagger cancel for a whooping 10 bleed damage or the Zone option select. Even IF you hit a Light, it deals such small damage it is barely worth the stamina costs which are pretty huge on her. I just see Orochis and Zerkers attacking relentlessly without going OOS, I am DONE after a Zone and half a Chain. How the actual fck should that be playable? Yeah, I know, Zone option select and turtle. Sure, you can win Duels with this, but it is not fun for the PK nor the enemy...

Knight_Raime
05-22-2018, 07:12 PM
Let's hope this is not the case. I play Glad for now, will switch to Zerker, Orochi or Shaman cause they are simply MUCH better than PK. Why did they even touch her if they do this utter garbage only...

Don't know why you'd switch to glad. Only thing he has is zone. His defense play is poor and his dash attacks are unsafe on block. Only thing he's got over pk is his heavies being safe to throw due to a low vulnerability window. glad is pretty much objectively worse than pk. Zerk is the defacto best duelist atm yes. I wouldn't say rochi is "much" better because riptide/storm rush are not viable options against good turtles. Shaman has more tools than pk but is harder punished if the other player reads you well.


It's not just the fact that she has no identity, it is that they trampled all over what identity she had with every change until they have outright stated in this last set of changes that she now has a different identity. She has only ever been a counter attacker in name, this is just the first time they admitted that they were going for something else with these changes.

She needed the nerfs if they were set on keeping her 500-400 lights and 400 zone but they could have kept her fast in the dodge whether with a closer or as part of that identity having just one fraction more dodge and otherwise actually gone with her paradigm in that she was suppsoed to be a counter attacker not someone standing in your face and unleashing quick attacks.

I am not saying she is bad, I don't think in a 1v1 sense she is and some of the complaints have been exaggerated, I am saying that when they focus on getting her to use quick lights in order to get to finishers and nerf everything counter attacking about her in order to keep those lights fast they might as well just call her an harasser.

I don't much pay attention to the descriptions of the heros. Tons of them are wrong. And we've never been given a direct explanation of what each term means from the devs. At least as far as I can remember. The dodge recovery nerf isn't a huge nerf to her. And as I explained when quoting Variks 500ms dodge recovery really shouldn't exist to begin with in the context of avoiding/punishing.

Charmzzz
05-22-2018, 07:13 PM
Because Glad can FORCE a reaction. Whereas PK still cant do anything against a good turtle.

Knight_Raime
05-22-2018, 07:15 PM
Where exactly was she a counter-attacker in the first place with her garbage deflect which gets negated by almost every Character due to hyperarmor spam? Or the massively nerfed dodge-attacks which other Characters can do much better? Did they really call her counter-attacker because of the Zone option select? Was that intended to work this way?

Thing is, 500-400ms Lights are pretty common after all these Reworks. And they get blocked 90% in my skill bracket. The only way to deal damage from neutral now is heavy-soft-feint-dagger cancel for a whooping 10 bleed damage or the Zone option select. Even IF you hit a Light, it deals such small damage it is barely worth the stamina costs which are pretty huge on her. I just see Orochis and Zerkers attacking relentlessly without going OOS, I am DONE after a Zone and half a Chain. How the actual fck should that be playable? Yeah, I know, Zone option select and turtle. Sure, you can win Duels with this, but it is not fun for the PK nor the enemy...

If you're playing against people who reg block 500-400ms attacks idk why you'd think glad would be a better pick for you over pk. Also I will have to call you on that. There are plenty of top tier players who say they can't block 400ms attacks consistently. They're constantly noted as hard to react to. Are you delaying your feints/lights or do you buffer them? Because if you only buffer that would explain your issues of being blocked a lot.

Technically speaking pk can zone on heavy indicator against zerker to trade into the HA feint and deflect his follow up light. That's a good bit of damage.

Knight_Raime
05-22-2018, 07:18 PM
Because Glad can FORCE a reaction. Whereas PK still cant do anything against a good turtle.

ehhhh. Not sure. Toe stab is dodgable on reaction and nets everyone a GB. Skewer is almost never committed to because it's pretty easy to see when it's being let go. I'm unsure on it's tracking. and his bashes outside zone don't confirm damage.

Pk really has never needed to force a reaction. Her lack of telegraphing combined with delayed soft feints and delayed lights speeds make it very hard for someone to block everything on reaction.

KitingFatKidsEZ
05-22-2018, 08:23 PM
Thing is, 500-400ms Lights are pretty common after all these Reworks. And they get blocked 90% in my skill bracket.
How the actual fck should that be playable?
Yeah, I know, Zone option select and turtle. Sure, you can win Duels with this, but it is not fun for the PK nor the enemy...
I looked at your profile and you mostly play dom.

In dom Fiat Lux alone is more than enough reason to pick a character. Its game winning broken on some maps and great on the rest. Its legit the most broken feat in the game and should be removed entirely.

You generally get some of the best (arguably THE best) feats in the game with full bombs + stealth/bounty hunter.
Your movement speed is so high that most characters can barely keep up when using rush (exception being shaman (ONLY with rush outpacing her by a relevant amount) and shinobi). The ones who dont have rush just eat dust. nevermind the fact that rush isnt constantly active but fairly short duration as well with a decent cooldown.
You can reset off point fights whenever you want to heal up and hardly anyone can punish you.

If you can make it to a zone in 15-20% less time on average just contesting it so the other team doesnt get points is really valuable.
She really doesnt have to stomp 1v1s to be great in dom in particular.

Berserker should be looked at in general. The guy is just an abyssmal matchup for anyone who doesnt have an easy access bash or hyper armor himself and thats really not okay.

Arekonator
05-22-2018, 08:33 PM
For the record, i think placing orochi before PK, or in S tier in general is where Skor went mental and i will predict he will drop him down soon.
New PK might be less powerfull (i think, while it was needed, they went bit overboard on the overal damage nerf), but somehow feels even more toxic to fight than the old PK, which really is feat in itself.

Knight_Raime
05-22-2018, 08:38 PM
For the record, i think placing orochi before PK, or in S tier in general is where Skor went mental and i will predict he will drop him down soon.
New PK might be less powerfull (i think, while it was needed, they went bit overboard on the overal damage nerf), but somehow feels even more toxic to fight than the old PK, which really is feat in itself.

Yeah i've been hearing quite a bit about people questioning Skor putting him in S rank. I think rochi deserves S rank purely on the fact that if storm rush is able to be delayed again and they fix the bugs with storm rush and riptide they would be decent tools to use at high level play.

Arekonator
05-22-2018, 08:44 PM
Yeah i've been hearing quite a bit about people questioning Skor putting him in S rank. I think rochi deserves S rank purely on the fact that if storm rush is able to be delayed again and they fix the bugs with storm rush and riptide they would be decent tools to use at high level play.
I am sure it will get resolved in very near future, one way or other. Not even top player tierlists are fixed in stone afterall.

UbiJurassic
05-22-2018, 08:55 PM
Thanks for sharing your feedback so far on Peacekeeper, everyone. For the most part, the conversation has been constructive. As a reminder though, let's make sure to keep the conversation about the changes to Peacekeeper and stay away from flaming other users.

As for the feedback on Peacekeeper, I'll make sure it's shared along to the team, as I'm sure they are keen to hear what players have to say about the changes.

TheTool85
05-22-2018, 09:18 PM
I looked at your profile and you mostly play dom.
.

Just as an advice: do not start a discussion with Charmzzz about stats. He will post your FH tracker stats and his. And: if his are better it will mean that whatever opinion you'll have to this topic, he will not take you serious anymore, cause you might be not in his skill bracket..
At least, thats what i have seen the last 6 months when he took part in a discussion.

Charmzzz
05-22-2018, 10:10 PM
Just as an advice: do not start a discussion with Charmzzz about stats. He will post your FH tracker stats and his. And: if his are better it will mean that whatever opinion you'll have to this topic, he will not take you serious anymore, cause you might be not in his skill bracket..
At least, thats what i have seen the last 6 months when he took part in a discussion.

I didnt do that this time nor did I do that in every discussion I was in. Reported btw, look at the posts above yours, UbiJurassic said EXACTLY what you shouldnt do...

BadBOO17
05-22-2018, 11:15 PM
Give or take raider is 3 to 4 times the size of pk and uses a huge axe compared to pk's toothpicks, i think its understandable why she only gets 10 dam compared to raiders 18

PanzerShrekonin
05-22-2018, 11:36 PM
I need to get used to the new PK with the feints into the top light, but I can see shes not as good as she used to be, which im thankful for. She ran around terrorizing duels and has been top 3 since the games release. I dont think she needs to be touched for a while, especially if shes B tier. They have more pressing concerns atm. We also have to be careful with her because again... PK was very much overpowered before this change.

No one could deny that she was top 3 in duels. Lawbringer, PK and Shaman I believe were the best.

But yea... she's been nerfed.


As for Orochi, I think this one has been really well done and I really dont like fighting them. Its a guessing game and its kinda painful, but its too early for ME to say if hes broken OP.


Shaman is still a character that grates on my nerves though.

ChampionRuby50g
05-23-2018, 01:48 AM
Let's hope this is not the case. I play Glad for now, will switch to Zerker, Orochi or Shaman cause they are simply MUCH better than PK. Why did they even touch her if they do this utter garbage only...

Iím seriously not sure whether you are serious or just trolling with saying PK should be worked on again over other OG heroes. Yeah, her rework was sub-par and nerfed her a lot, but when you think that your main is more deserving of attention than the worst heroes in the game such as Valk, Shugo and other heroes who are in much worse spots than her itsjust plain selfish. She is still S/A Tier depending on who you ask, so what good reason is there to make her stronger again before Valk whose been underpowered and arguably the worst hero in the game gets her rework?

Charmzzz
05-23-2018, 08:06 AM
I’m seriously not sure whether you are serious or just trolling with saying PK should be worked on again over other OG heroes. Yeah, her rework was sub-par and nerfed her a lot, but when you think that your main is more deserving of attention than the worst heroes in the game such as Valk, Shugo and other heroes who are in much worse spots than her itsjust plain selfish. She is still S/A Tier depending on who you ask, so what good reason is there to make her stronger again before Valk whose been underpowered and arguably the worst hero in the game gets her rework?

Because they "sold" this massive Nerf and Bugfix on PK as a Rework, which it is simply not at all. I am with you for the Valk, but Shugo? He is a pain in Dominion and a turtle Shugo who waits for nothing else than a GB into Demon Embrace is hard to kill in Duel, too. Yes, his playstyle is boring, but compare it to PK please -> both have ONE, maybe two viable moves (Zone and Dagger Cancel on PK, Light into Headbutt and GB into Demon Embrace on Shugo). Super boring for both the players and their opponents.

I am not asking for a full Rework on PK. Just lower her stamina costs and e.g. buff deep gouge / dagger cancel damage back to 15, and for the sake of Deflects - give it Hyperarmor! It is such a useless move right now as it will end in a trade in 95% of cases anyway, with Hyperarmor it will at least get through in 1vX situations. Isn't it the only Deflect without HA atm?

Specialkha
05-23-2018, 08:16 AM
Wind Gust does not have HA.
Learn to know when to use it.

So what? PK has know only 1 or 2 tools viables, so you say. So? Should we cry for you? Even with only that, she is still Tier A or S. What a big deal.

And we should not use reality stuff in the game as I have seen previously (Raider should do more dmg than pk because big guy and big axe), because LB would be unkillable by the majority of the cast.

ChampionRuby50g
05-23-2018, 11:56 AM
Because they "sold" this massive Nerf and Bugfix on PK as a Rework, which it is simply not at all. I am with you for the Valk, but Shugo? He is a pain in Dominion and a turtle Shugo who waits for nothing else than a GB into Demon Embrace is hard to kill in Duel, too. Yes, his playstyle is boring, but compare it to PK please -> both have ONE, maybe two viable moves (Zone and Dagger Cancel on PK, Light into Headbutt and GB into Demon Embrace on Shugo). Super boring for both the players and their opponents.

I am not asking for a full Rework on PK. Just lower her stamina costs and e.g. buff deep gouge / dagger cancel damage back to 15, and for the sake of Deflects - give it Hyperarmor! It is such a useless move right now as it will end in a trade in 95% of cases anyway, with Hyperarmor it will at least get through in 1vX situations. Isn't it the only Deflect without HA atm?

Yeah Iím pretty shocked how they had the nerve to do that, at least call it a balance pass with bug fixes instead of misleading the community.
Personally I wouldnít even call DE viable. You can see it coming from neutral a mile off, itís fairly easy to CGB in general and even if the Shugo does get the GB there is no guarantee that there will be a wall nearby. Itís characters like this, one trick ponies, that rely on one aspect of their move list to remain viable such as Shugos passive hyper armor, and LBs impale. Feats are an entire different discussion so Iím not gonna mention them.

If all it takes is simple number changes, which seems to be the case, then yeah Ubi should go on and do it. I reckon that PKs heavy attacks should have a damage buff considering that you canít even land one on GB, and the changes you suggested.

Knight_Raime
05-23-2018, 09:20 PM
Because they "sold" this massive Nerf and Bugfix on PK as a Rework, which it is simply not at all. I am with you for the Valk, but Shugo? He is a pain in Dominion and a turtle Shugo who waits for nothing else than a GB into Demon Embrace is hard to kill in Duel, too. Yes, his playstyle is boring, but compare it to PK please -> both have ONE, maybe two viable moves (Zone and Dagger Cancel on PK, Light into Headbutt and GB into Demon Embrace on Shugo). Super boring for both the players and their opponents.

I am not asking for a full Rework on PK. Just lower her stamina costs and e.g. buff deep gouge / dagger cancel damage back to 15, and for the sake of Deflects - give it Hyperarmor! It is such a useless move right now as it will end in a trade in 95% of cases anyway, with Hyperarmor it will at least get through in 1vX situations. Isn't it the only Deflect without HA atm?

I feel for you as a pk main but to compare her to shugoki in terms of viable moves is a complete stretch. Her kit is miles better than goki's. Even if you played against the best of the best rendering most of her kit useless that's not a kit flaw. Nearly every kit in the game would fall off hard at that level that you supposedly play in.

I think the only deflect in the game that has HA is hurricane blast. As for giving her deflect HA i'm unsure on that. the ability to multi deflect kind of takes the purpose of that away imo. I think a more creative way to make it useful would be to make it trigger all the current bleed damage that's stacked at once. That way the person can't escape the fight and be healed in some fashion. And/or could see making the deflect count as a heavy. So she'd be the first hero to be able to execute on deflect. Wouldn't change her in 1v1 but it would give a reason to aim for the deflect in team modes.

PanzerShrekonin
05-23-2018, 10:10 PM
PK is in a good place right now in comparison to most of the OG heroes, She can stay where she is as shes not TERRIBLE.

EvoX.
05-23-2018, 10:35 PM
No.

1. She's in a better spot than around 70% of the cast
2. She needed the nerfs to damage, it did not make sense how hard she hit
3. One of the best FH players still places her in S-tier, though other top players disagree and drop her down to A, an opinion which I share

Overall, she's more in line with the rest of the cast now, and that's still putting it gently considering the only heroes she definitely loses to are Zerk and Conq, everyone else is either a toss up or she's favored against them. That is objectively an extremely good position to be in, but... some players here can't stand not playing an S-tier. Tsk, tsk.

Something that she definitely does need is a deflect buff - currently it's pretty bad, and by that I mean it's literally the worst in the game. Just buff its damage to around 30 and make it go through hyper armor somehow, she now has the ability to soft feint out of every heavy with a dodge, so a deflect buff would be in line.

However, before PK is even considered for more changes, the mains of the following characters:

Shugoki
Valkyrie
Lawbringer
Warden
Aramusha
Centurion

... would like to get their turn, plus hopefully a ticket to playing an actually viable hero, something that PK still is. Other than a deflect buff, or a number of buffs in exchange for her Zone option select, she really should be touched anymore.

PanzerShrekonin
05-23-2018, 10:58 PM
No.

1. She's in a better spot than around 70% of the cast
2. She needed the nerfs to damage, it did not make sense how hard she hit
3. One of the best FH players still places her in S-tier, though other top players disagree and drop her down to A, an opinion which I share

Overall, she's more in line with the rest of the cast now, and that's still putting it gently considering the only heroes she definitely loses to are Zerk and Conq, everyone else is either a toss up or she's favored against them. That is objectively an extremely good position to be in, but... some players here can't stand not playing an S-tier. Tsk, tsk.

Something that she definitely does need is a deflect buff - currently it's pretty bad, and by that I mean it's literally the worst in the game. Just buff its damage to around 30 and make it go through hyper armor somehow, she now has the ability to soft feint out of every heavy with a dodge, so a deflect buff would be in line.

However, before PK is even considered for more changes, the mains of the following characters:

Shugoki
Valkyrie
Lawbringer
Warden
Aramusha
Centurion

... would like to get their turn, plus hopefully a ticket to playing an actually viable hero, something that PK still is. Other than a deflect buff, or a number of buffs in exchange for her Zone option select, she really should be touched anymore.

I'd actually like to see what a Shugoki rework would look like. Like just how would they change him is what I wanna know.

I'd really like a centurion rework.

BTTrinity
05-23-2018, 11:16 PM
Want decent mixups with a very strong CC and survivability? Shaman

Want strong counter attacks with a very strong CC? Shino

Want fast counter attacks with very strong deflects? Orochi

Want strong Mixups with hyper armor on everything you throw and a godly deflect? zerk

What does PK do better then these guys exactly? Her damage is not worth the stamina consumption, her CC was made very unreliable after parry changes (No more free gb into triple stab) sorry but theres no reason to use PK over the other assassins.

She needs some damage buffs (In between what they are now, and what they were)

Along with stamina reduction costs across the board.

PanzerShrekonin
05-24-2018, 12:42 AM
Peacekeeper needs to be left alone. There are WAY more people who need help than Peacekeeper who is IN a good spot. Sure, she's not as good as she once was, but no one waqnts her to be like that.


Peacekeeper is fine.

Lets focus on Warden, Lawbringer, Centurion, Shugoki, Warlord, Raider, Valk... you know what lets focus on the entire cast that hasn't been good in a long time.

Peacekeeper needs to be bottom of the barrel for choices to work on right now.