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Tyrjo
05-14-2018, 05:15 PM
Season 5 is kind of over and I'm really, really eager to see the win matrix data for all heroes. Any news on when it arrives?

Finally!

What can we say about the stats...well Orochi is obviously not last as of today.

http://i63.tinypic.com/34qlnja.jpg

CandleInTheDark
05-14-2018, 05:45 PM
You got me all excited thinking there was a link then lol.

I posted the thread for the last one so looking back at my started threads, that was two months ago so my best guess is in June, however it depends on when they had the idea for the original one (if they always knew they were doing it in advance it could well be it really does take a month to analyse the data they want to) and if they have taken the numbers already or are waiting until the end of offseason before the start of season patch.

Alustar.exe
05-14-2018, 06:09 PM
I'd like to know if this is on a season by season basis, or cumulative?

Tyrjo
05-14-2018, 07:00 PM
I'd like to know if this is on a season by season basis, or cumulative?

I would say season by season since anything else would be very strange.

Ubi-Boat
05-14-2018, 08:41 PM
Hey all!

The team is trying to get the blogs on the new reworks as well as the season 5 recap out sometime this week. Be sure to be on the lookout!

Tyrjo
05-15-2018, 11:14 AM
Awesome! Thanks!

Tyrjo
05-19-2018, 09:31 AM
Nothing so far. :(

Tyrjo
05-22-2018, 05:22 PM
Hey all!

The team is trying to get the blogs on the new reworks as well as the season 5 recap out sometime this week. Be sure to be on the lookout!

Do you have an update on this?

UbiJurassic
05-22-2018, 06:27 PM
Do you have an update on this?

We still plan to release a State of Balance post for Season 5. No ETA to give just yet though on its release.

D34DLYH4MST3RS
05-26-2018, 09:34 AM
We still plan to release a State of Balance post for Season 5. No ETA to give just yet though on its release.

Well when it does, we'll be able to see just how bad valkyrie was doing before you gave whole reworks to characters that didn't need them, *cough* peacekeeper *cough* *cough*

Tyrjo
05-26-2018, 01:58 PM
PK needed to be down-tuned though. It made the game better imo.

Siegfried-Z
05-28-2018, 01:32 PM
Still no news ?

Tyrjo
05-29-2018, 07:20 PM
Still nothing. The most interesting blog post of the season even further delayed...

UbiJurassic
05-29-2018, 09:10 PM
Still nothing. The most interesting blog post of the season even further delayed...

It's definitely still coming! Unfortunately, still no ETA to share just yet, but it should be coming soon.

Tyrjo
05-31-2018, 06:31 PM
http://i63.tinypic.com/34qlnja.jpg

KitingFatKidsEZ
05-31-2018, 06:43 PM
Berserker and Aramusha are the big surprises for everyone i guess.

I already felt Berserker isnt as strong as i thought he was playing him the last week. His zone is complete garbage which kinda makes up for how busted his hyper armor is.

With aramusha i think it is very interesting to point out that he generally has better winrates against characters with reflex guard (as high as 63% and 67% against glad and orochi as well as almost 60% against shaman and berserker BOTH of which are higher on the average power level) indicating that there still is an issue with guard change + parry/block on reflex guard characters.

Arekonator
05-31-2018, 07:47 PM
Conq vs LB 73/27.
And people are wondering why this matchup makes me want to kms.

Fairemont
05-31-2018, 08:23 PM
Poor Nobushi. :(

Felheric
05-31-2018, 09:29 PM
Berserker and Aramusha are the big surprises for everyone i guess.

I already felt Berserker isnt as strong as i thought he was playing him the last week. His zone is complete garbage which kinda makes up for how busted his hyper armor is.

With aramusha i think it is very interesting to point out that he generally has better winrates against characters with reflex guard (as high as 63% and 67% against glad and orochi as well as almost 60% against shaman and berserker BOTH of which are higher on the average power level) indicating that there still is an issue with guard change + parry/block on reflex guard characters.


Care to explain why you consider Berserker zone complete garbage when its 24 dmg all heavys with delayed light folow up which is super obnoxious to parry? now with decent tracking even. Can be used as heavy parry punish.

KitingFatKidsEZ
06-01-2018, 05:05 AM
Care to explain why you consider Berserker zone complete garbage when its 24 dmg all heavys with delayed light folow up which is super obnoxious to parry? now with decent tracking even. Can be used as heavy parry punish.

You cant use it as option select because of berserkers in kit "parry light attack follow up". If you parry a light with serkers zone you automatically use a light without any further input.

The move is a guaranteed parry on block because its a multihit you cant feint --> block --> parry the last hit. Really easy.

If you use backwards zone instead so it doesnt get parried on multihit you do about as much damage as a blocked heavy.

Its pretty awful.

Tyrjo
06-01-2018, 07:39 AM
You cant use it as option select because of berserkers in kit "parry light attack follow up". If you parry a light with serkers zone you automatically use a light without any further input.

The move is a guaranteed parry on block because its a multihit you cant feint --> block --> parry the last hit. Really easy.

If you use backwards zone instead so it doesnt get parried on multihit you do about as much damage as a blocked heavy.

Its pretty awful.


I for one am not surprised Berserker is up there in the top, he's insane now. That hyper armor on everything is really, really good, and his feint game is superb.

You can go for a zone after a parry, but you need to wait for the window of the light to end. It's difficult, but I've seen people do it.

KitingFatKidsEZ
06-01-2018, 08:03 AM
I for one am not surprised Berserker is up there in the top, he's insane now. That hyper armor on everything is really, really good, and his feint game is superb.

You can go for a zone after a parry, but you need to wait for the window of the light to end. It's difficult, but I've seen people do it.

I think you misunderstood me quite a bit :/

I am not surprised that berserker is above 50% winrate, i think most people including myself about 2 weeks ago would have expected him to be higher up.

You cant use serk zone as option select reliably (option select = input the zone instead of a parry when you would usually try to parry) because if you do that to parry a light attack berserker will immediately use a light attack as punish instead of getting a heavy that every other chararcter gets off a succesfull zone option select light parry.

I didnt talk about zone as heavy parry punish at all.

Alustar.exe
06-01-2018, 08:17 AM
I think you misunderstood me quite a bit :/

I am not surprised that berserker is above 50% winrate, i think most people including myself about 2 weeks ago would have expected him to be higher up.

You cant use serk zone as option select reliably (option select = input the zone instead of a parry when you would usually try to parry) because if you do that to parry a light attack berserker will immediately use a light attack as punish instead of getting a heavy that every other chararcter gets off a succesfull zone option select light parry.

I didnt talk about zone as heavy parry punish at all.

Lol, then learn when to zone option. Duh

Siegfried-Z
06-01-2018, 08:54 AM
Now who dare saying Valk don't need love ^^ :)))

KitingFatKidsEZ
06-01-2018, 09:28 AM
Lol, then learn when to zone option. Duh

The whole point of an option select is that it beats multiple things at the same time

No worries though...

Since you are the commited stupid forum troll i dont expect you to grasp basic concepts of fighting games.

Alustar.exe
06-01-2018, 10:39 AM
The whole point of an option select is that it beats multiple things at the same time

No worries though...

Since you are the commited stupid forum troll i dont expect you to grasp basic concepts of fighting games.

I can't even begin to describe how idiotic that statement is. Mostly because the option select is an unintended mechanic to begin with.
I also love how you call me a troll like it's supposed to hurt my feelings! XD you obviously don't have any clue.

Vakris_One
06-01-2018, 02:20 PM
http://i63.tinypic.com/34qlnja.jpg
Well that's interesting. I expected Zerker to be 3rd and Kensei 4th. The almighty Conq outpacing the pre-damage nerf PK is impressive but not completely unexpected. Aramusha is very surprising that he's hanging in there. My guess is because he can stun lock assassins. How is Centurion hanging in there above Gladiator though?

Are there any developer notes that come with this?

Tyrjo
06-01-2018, 05:28 PM
Are there any developer notes that come with this?

Yes. On Tuesday they will release the whole blog post. This was just a teaser from the Warriors den.

Meanpie13
06-01-2018, 06:32 PM
I'm pretty surprised by some of these. This is why you shouldn't take the tier list too seriously. The tier list doesn't agree with the actual data.

Tyrjo
06-01-2018, 06:51 PM
I'm pretty surprised by some of these. This is why you shouldn't take the tier list too seriously. The tier list doesn't agree with the actual data.

They question should then be: Do we trust the evidence we have, or do we go with what we feel is right?

Meanpie13
06-01-2018, 06:59 PM
They question should then be: Do we trust the evidence we have, or do we go with what we feel is right?

Hard data is more valuable than feelings.

Felheric
06-01-2018, 09:57 PM
You cant use it as option select because of berserkers in kit "parry light attack follow up". If you parry a light with serkers zone you automatically use a light without any further input.

The move is a guaranteed parry on block because its a multihit you cant feint --> block --> parry the last hit. Really easy.

If you use backwards zone instead so it doesnt get parried on multihit you do about as much damage as a blocked heavy.

Its pretty awful.


I can see what you mean, if guy decide to bait parry option select zone from zerker he gets parry without work cuz he can just switch block and parry last hits, or you parry light but rob yourself of dmg, but it is a still only heavy parry. You getting 24 dmg with light folowup for 15 which really gets people if he opt to feint gb or do something else. Obviously you cant option select parry everytime especially against classes who has dbl lights and punish harder. He has still safest deflect where you can punish hyper armor chars without worry.
I still disagree about being it bad if you compare it to rest of cast, Atleast I consider it in top 5 zones, mostly because of dmg and leading to something.

Fairemont
06-01-2018, 10:30 PM
Despite Ubi saying that Nobushi got buffed she is right there at the bottom. Buffed right into the bottom below all other reworked characters and even most that aren't reworked yet.

Excellent buff.

Meanpie13
06-02-2018, 12:11 AM
Despite Ubi saying that Nobushi got buffed she is right there at the bottom. Buffed right into the bottom below all other reworked characters and even most that aren't reworked yet.

Excellent buff.

I think the intent was to make her worse at 4 vs 4 while still being viable in 1 vs 1. She does need a slight buff now.

Knight_Raime
06-02-2018, 01:31 AM
Berserker and Aramusha are the big surprises for everyone i guess.

I already felt Berserker isnt as strong as i thought he was playing him the last week. His zone is complete garbage which kinda makes up for how busted his hyper armor is.

With aramusha i think it is very interesting to point out that he generally has better winrates against characters with reflex guard (as high as 63% and 67% against glad and orochi as well as almost 60% against shaman and berserker BOTH of which are higher on the average power level) indicating that there still is an issue with guard change + parry/block on reflex guard characters.

Not really surprised. they nerfed the utility of his zone attacks which were pretty good. And honestly if you play patiently and not zerks game he's really not difficult to manage. Conq being higher I deff saw because conq is still very safe due to how his kit plays. most people don't even know of/use the nonsense he can do with the messing with the timing of his heavy/charged heavy inputs. He's hyper safe and has a decent offense of varied bash.

Aramusha being up higher also doesn't surprise me considering how much weird things i've learned in his kit. Still wouldn't say he's a good hero kit wise. But he's a lot more than just delayed light spam.

Knight_Raime
06-02-2018, 01:39 AM
Well that's interesting. I expected Zerker to be 3rd and Kensei 4th. The almighty Conq outpacing the pre-damage nerf PK is impressive but not completely unexpected. Aramusha is very surprising that he's hanging in there. My guess is because he can stun lock assassins. How is Centurion hanging in there above Gladiator though?

Are there any developer notes that come with this?

1) Zerk zone utility was nerfed. And if you are familiar with how zerks generally play it's not hard to turtle against one. He also doesn't have range. meaning heros like Rochi (now) can simply out range him. Some heros also force him out of not being aggressive with feint spammy combos. and if he's not being aggressive he's not strong.

2) Conq really isn't difficult to see when considering how safe he is with zone, some what forward bash, and the weird stuff he can do with heavy/charged heavy inputs vs attacks timing wise.

3) That's part of it but not all of it. Aramusha has very sneaky things he can do that edge him out in ways people are not used to. Like buffer inputing blade blockade against fast combo strings for a guaranteed BB. or dodging consistently through light spam to get a GB at the end of it. Plus he also can delay everything he does. Making trying to read what he does next and react properly pretty difficult.

4) Centurion is above gladiator because of punishes. On a single punish centurion is capable of dishing 80+ damage in duels. His heavy game is safe. And the ability to threaten with a 500ms attack that turns into an unblockable off of every single landed punch,kick, and light is nothing to scoff at (due to the light into heavy combo being added.) Gladiator just has zone. Toe stab is unsafe as hell. His dodge attacks suck at dodging because they can't be varied and give a free GB on block. Skewer is hardly ever let go with feint games due to how easy it is to read. And 500ms lights are nothing difficult to manage for top players. People like gladiator because you have to outplay your opponent with mind games to win fights. But if you look at his kit objectively he's got poor defense with only semi decent offense against most heros and a cheesy zone. His zone is the ONLY thing keeping him in S tier for duels right now.

Knight_Raime
06-02-2018, 01:44 AM
I'm pretty surprised by some of these. This is why you shouldn't take the tier list too seriously. The tier list doesn't agree with the actual data.

Tier lists are meant to compare match ups vs objectively best kits. Aramusha as an example isn't a good kit despite his WL ratio being better than expected. It just means the people playing with the kit know how to use it very well.

To put it another way. Kensei is objectively better than aramusha because kensei can force reactions and open someone up. It wouldn't matter what aramusha has in his kit. If he can't open people up who are defending by forcing a reaction then his kit is niche and not really viable for serious competitive play.

This doesn't mean that tier lists are end all be all for who you should play or not play. And it doesn't apply to the majority of the population. The tier lists in any game purely exist for over arching theory crafting on match ups, meta talk (when considering team comps and the like,) and when talking about balance. Though with balance it's not really the end all be all either. It's more of a guide line on what works and what doesn't and who might potentially be an issue. Win loss also isn't everything. So people shouldn't take these charts as the defacto thing for anything.

Tyrjo
06-05-2018, 08:03 PM
Finally the blog post is here:

https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-gb/news-community/detail.aspx?c=tcm:154-325754-16&ct=tcm:154-76770-32

Knight_Raime
06-05-2018, 08:19 PM
Finally the blog post is here:

https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-gb/news-community/detail.aspx?c=tcm:154-325754-16&ct=tcm:154-76770-32

Important things to note:
~glad might get a feat buff and slower guard decay.
~lawbringer feats likely to be nerfed. Shove on block is getting changed. other non specified changes.
~acknowledgement of highlanders defensive stance being poor.
~valk is being worked on.
~Conq will receive some small nerfs.
~Side dodge recovery to be normalized at some point. (YAS.)

SenBotsu893
06-06-2018, 01:20 PM
Finally the blog post is here:

https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-gb/news-community/detail.aspx?c=tcm:154-325754-16&ct=tcm:154-76770-32

interesting.. so the reason for the nobushi and pk nerf was just so simply people wouldnt use them anymore to prefent the shaman/pk/nobu combo.

you would think one would adress the problem on its root... but hey its not like certain key members of the dev team are biased towards their favourite characters or anything. right? right?!?

DrinkinMyStella
06-06-2018, 01:29 PM
its really nice to see kensei top tier now, I think he's fine where he is because in 4v4 he's also balanced.

Charmzzz
06-06-2018, 02:56 PM
its really nice to see kensei top tier now, I think he's fine where he is because in 4v4 he's also balanced.

Mhm, imo Kensei is the new Nobushi in group fights. Wide arc, hyperarmored dodge attacks covering lots of space. Plus a fast Zone covering almost 360° (feels like that when I face one, not sure about the actual hitbox). Could use a nerf on his hitboxes if you ask me.

DrinkinMyStella
06-06-2018, 03:12 PM
Mhm, imo Kensei is the new Nobushi in group fights. Wide arc, hyperarmored dodge attacks covering lots of space. Plus a fast Zone covering almost 360° (feels like that when I face one, not sure about the actual hitbox). Could use a nerf on his hitboxes if you ask me.

I find people attack kensei at the wrong time, Kensei has always had that dodge attack and the distance it travels and his hit detection has always been the same I think, its just with his added HA and zone its just bumped him right up to A-tier. I wouldn't say he feels like nobushi but I do feel very safe when using kensei compared to other characters, I think maybe if people don't like his dodge attack the only thing they could do is increase recovery time between dodges.

Knight_Raime
06-06-2018, 06:34 PM
interesting.. so the reason for the nobushi and pk nerf was just so simply people wouldnt use them anymore to prefent the shaman/pk/nobu combo.

you would think one would adress the problem on its root... but hey its not like certain key members of the dev team are biased towards their favourite characters or anything. right? right?!?

Not the only reason. But hey I guess it's just okay to ignore anything that doesn't fall within your blinders view.
Nobu was over tuned in 4v4 before shaman came along. and pk was oppressive everywhere for reasons I really shouldn't have to repeat to someone that's been around as long as you have.

But sure. Those weren't things. They only got nerfed because shaman existed. yep. totally good logic. Can't see the flaw in that. It's perfect.

SenBotsu893
06-07-2018, 11:04 AM
Not the only reason. But hey I guess it's just okay to ignore anything that doesn't fall within your blinders view.
Nobu was over tuned in 4v4 before shaman came along. and pk was oppressive everywhere for reasons I really shouldn't have to repeat to someone that's been around as long as you have.

But sure. Those weren't things. They only got nerfed because shaman existed. yep. totally good logic. Can't see the flaw in that. It's perfect.

lel you so funny.

let me QUOTE the BLOGPOST:

"With Nobushi’s slight nerf in S5 and the Peacekeeper changes in S6,1 we think Shaman will be in a sweet spot in 4v4. We wanted to diminish the supremacy of what we call “The Bleed Team”: Peacekeeper / Shaman / Nobushi by nerfing some of the Heroes of the team but most importantly buffing other Heroes to make them a valid pick."

what i said was the very same thing! the only difference was that i didnt mask my statement behind PR ******** to make it sound nice and tidy.

but here you go jumping the gun at me for making things up huh? get off your high horse and take a look at yourself for a change.

Charmzzz
06-07-2018, 12:02 PM
lel you so funny.

let me QUOTE the BLOGPOST:

"With Nobushi’s slight nerf in S5 and the Peacekeeper changes in S6,1 we think Shaman will be in a sweet spot in 4v4. We wanted to diminish the supremacy of what we call “The Bleed Team”: Peacekeeper / Shaman / Nobushi by nerfing some of the Heroes of the team but most importantly buffing other Heroes to make them a valid pick."

what i said was the very same thing! the only difference was that i didnt mask my statement behind PR ******** to make it sound nice and tidy.

but here you go jumping the gun at me for making things up huh? get off your high horse and take a look at yourself for a change.

Yeah, I am with you here. Sounds really like "nerf the bleed team into oblivion because we don't know how to balance Shaman"... The nerf bat hit Nobushi and PK hard, instead of trying to balance Shaman for 4v4 they decided to make 2 other Heroes almost useless.

Alustar.exe
06-07-2018, 12:29 PM
I want to know what's wrong with team synergy? You can do the same thing with Valktrue, Lawbringer, Conqueror and Centurion with his eagle talon.

The main problem I see with this is that there aren't many characters that have much that can be sync up with other characters. I think what would be better than just outright nerfing characters is finding ways to allow other heroes to perform better group combos.

CandleInTheDark
06-07-2018, 04:32 PM
For anyone interested, this is the dev response to the reddit version of this thread which may answer a few questions people here have

https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/8p4kuq/dev_response_to_state_of_balance_feedback/

Also this particular post in the same thread on PC vs console balancing

https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/8p4kuq/dev_response_to_state_of_balance_feedback/e08iuso/

Tyrjo
06-07-2018, 04:51 PM
I would prefer if they responded in here as well, it's like...the official forum.

Knight_Raime
06-07-2018, 05:00 PM
lel you so funny.

let me QUOTE the BLOGPOST:

"With Nobushi’s slight nerf in S5 and the Peacekeeper changes in S6,1 we think Shaman will be in a sweet spot in 4v4. We wanted to diminish the supremacy of what we call “The Bleed Team”: Peacekeeper / Shaman / Nobushi by nerfing some of the Heroes of the team but most importantly buffing other Heroes to make them a valid pick."

what i said was the very same thing! the only difference was that i didnt mask my statement behind PR ******** to make it sound nice and tidy.

but here you go jumping the gun at me for making things up huh? get off your high horse and take a look at yourself for a change.

See the thing is that doesn't change my statement. Nobushi was an issue before shaman came along. Her zone was redic. And her recovery numbers in certain situations made it too difficult to pin her down in a team fight. That's why she was changed in season 5. Her being apart of the bleed comp is also apart of that. But the issue is you're pretending they ONLY changed nobushi and pk because of shaman. When you can go look at when the reworks dropped for both nobu and pk and they will have other reasons why they were changed. But you're ignoring those because this update just happens to fit your view. Which is why I equated you to wearing blinders. Which anyone who's been around here for a long time and isn't biased in some fashion can tell from your post history since you throw a fit anytime something happens to samurai's regardless of the reason.


Yeah, I am with you here. Sounds really like "nerf the bleed team into oblivion because we don't know how to balance Shaman"... The nerf bat hit Nobushi and PK hard, instead of trying to balance Shaman for 4v4 they decided to make 2 other Heroes almost useless.

I know PK was your main and all but I didn't expect to see hyperbull coming from you. Kind of thought you were above that.

SenBotsu893
06-07-2018, 07:19 PM
See the thing is that doesn't change my statement. Nobushi was an issue before shaman came along. Her zone was redic. And her recovery numbers in certain situations made it too difficult to pin her down in a team fight. That's why she was changed in season 5. Her being apart of the bleed comp is also apart of that. But the issue is you're pretending they ONLY changed nobushi and pk because of shaman. When you can go look at when the reworks dropped for both nobu and pk and they will have other reasons why they were changed. But you're ignoring those because this update just happens to fit your view. Which is why I equated you to wearing blinders. Which anyone who's been around here for a long time and isn't biased in some fashion can tell from your post history since you throw a fit anytime something happens to samurai's regardless of the reason.


ahhh i like how you insinuate that you arent biased and are the objektiveness itself incarnate. but please go ahead and keep pointing with your finger at others.

there is no such thing as an completly unbiased opinion when it comes to balancing especially in a fighting game. its true for me and its sadly true for the people that work in the dev team. unless we have a clear shematic on how figures are handled in the game like an x ms long attack does y damage and consumes z stamina there will always be discrepancies between heroes leading to some heroes perfoming better than others. then again you could argue that by normalising said values between all heroes they become essentially the same with just a different skin. i digress here...

but back to topic:

even pre nerf nobushi wasnt even a top pick for 4v4 since there were and still are better choices. yet she was hit first and hard and multiple times for that matter.

- second wind still plays the blissfull respite animation wich takes longer and puts her in unguarded position longer than any other character that uses sesond wind. same feat yet inferior.

- the damage nerf on the zone was way too harsh when you take into account that other characters zone attacks are either faster and/or do more damage. 25 would have been reasonable similar to warlord. its funny because her zone was actually used for crowd controll to keep greedy gankers at bay as opposed to most other zones wich are used only as dueling tools.

- not sure what you mean by recovery numbers? the abilty to cancel recoery frames with dodge? that hasent changed much besides from the sidewinder backdodge thingy. if thats what you are refering too then what about most other assasins with that exact same ability? dont think there is a reason why nobushis cancel is so much more worse than shamans or berserkers.


im glad that you mention the timing of those changes because that is exactly whats suspicious. pk was as you said yourself reigning supreme for..... well since the start and the devs always stated they rather buff other heroes instead of flat out nerfing the top. and they held onto that policy for so long and never touched her since season 1 forward dash damage reduction.

i feel like in time everyone kind of resigned to how pk is played and kinda sucked it up. thats why probably no one expected the pk "rework" when it suddenly dropped. everyone was expecting only buffs for the lower tier since a nerf was so very unlikely to happen. and incidentally the one top scorer that reciefed the nerf was NOT shaman, even though her beeing mentioned way more often than pk.
and from the sound of it we can expect Lawbringer(also a top pick) to get a damper as well. still no word on shaman changes though.

you see this is exactly whats making me so suspicious about the way the characters are beeing balanced.

and to be clear i am fine with an

--- agile fast assasin shaman--

but i am NOT fine with a

---40/50 ub damage + insane throwdistance + more defence and healing feats than a tank character agile fast assasin shaman---

Knight_Raime
06-07-2018, 07:34 PM
ahhh i like how you insinuate that you arent biased and are the objektiveness itself incarnate. but please go ahead and keep pointing with your finger at others.

there is no such thing as an completly unbiased opinion when it comes to balancing especially in a fighting game. its true for me and its sadly true for the people that work in the dev team. unless we have a clear shematic on how figures are handled in the game like an x ms long attack does y damage and consumes z stamina there will always be discrepancies between heroes leading to some heroes perfoming better than others. then again you could argue that by normalising said values between all heroes they become essentially the same with just a different skin. i digress here...

but back to topic:

even pre nerf nobushi wasnt even a top pick for 4v4 since there were and still are better choices. yet she was hit first and hard and multiple times for that matter.

- second wind still plays the blissfull respite animation wich takes longer and puts her in unguarded position longer than any other character that uses sesond wind. same feat yet inferior.

- the damage nerf on the zone was way too harsh when you take into account that other characters zone attacks are either faster and/or do more damage. 25 would have been reasonable similar to warlord. its funny because her zone was actually used for crowd controll to keep greedy gankers at bay as opposed to most other zones wich are used only as dueling tools.

- not sure what you mean by recovery numbers? the abilty to cancel recoery frames with dodge? that hasent changed much besides from the sidewinder backdodge thingy. if thats what you are refering too then what about most other assasins with that exact same ability? dont think there is a reason why nobushis cancel is so much more worse than shamans or berserkers.


im glad that you mention the timing of those changes because that is exactly whats suspicious. pk was as you said yourself reigning supreme for..... well since the start and the devs always stated they rather buff other heroes instead of flat out nerfing the top. and they held onto that policy for so long and never touched her since season 1 forward dash damage reduction.

i feel like in time everyone kind of resigned to how pk is played and kinda sucked it up. thats why probably no one expected the pk "rework" when it suddenly dropped. everyone was expecting only buffs for the lower tier since a nerf was so very unlikely to happen. and incidentally the one top scorer that reciefed the nerf was NOT shaman, even though her beeing mentioned way more often than pk.
and from the sound of it we can expect Lawbringer(also a top pick) to get a damper as well. still no word on shaman changes though.

you see this is exactly whats making me so suspicious about the way the characters are beeing balanced.

and to be clear i am fine with an

--- agile fast assasin shaman--

but i am NOT fine with a

---40/50 ub damage + insane throwdistance + more defence and healing feats than a tank character agile fast assasin shaman---

Nah. Everyone is biased to an extent. Even myself. But as I pointed out anyone who's been around here a long time can easily go through your post history and see that you take a rather aggressive stance to any samurai change regardless of reasons behind said changes. You get pretty heated and passive aggressive.

I'll have to disagree with that. She was a must pick in 4's from what I heard from lots of competitive players. Her zone unlock was stupidly good. And even after that was fixed her zone was still strong because it hit with good damage in a 360 radius. Not even kensei's zone does that (unless you don't cancel of course.) The damage nerf it got was 100% justified. If you think Respite was even close to being balanced then I don't know what to say. Far as I remember I believe they nerfed her dash cancel recoveries by a small amount (500ms to 600ms I think) they also changed recovery on kick so it was easier to GB her out of it in a team fight.

Pk has received tons of changes. You really should go back and look at patch history. She wasn't ignored ever. Shaman also hasn't been ignored. She's received changes 2 or 3 times now. I'm not really going to turn this discussion into a balance thing about Shaman. The only change that really needs to happen with her is her allies being able to proc bleed so she can bite. It should only work off of her bleed. It would be more work. But it would be the better change. As composed to just nerfing her bite (since it's the only thing in her kit that does decent damage.)

Alustar.exe
06-08-2018, 12:44 AM
ahhh i like how you insinuate that you arent biased and are the objektiveness itself incarnate. but please go ahead and keep pointing with your finger at others.

there is no such thing as an completly unbiased opinion when it comes to balancing especially in a fighting game. its true for me and its sadly true for the people that work in the dev team. unless we have a clear shematic on how figures are handled in the game like an x ms long attack does y damage and consumes z stamina there will always be discrepancies between heroes leading to some heroes perfoming better than others. then again you could argue that by normalising said values between all heroes they become essentially the same with just a different skin. i digress here...

but back to topic:

even pre nerf nobushi wasnt even a top pick for 4v4 since there were and still are better choices. yet she was hit first and hard and multiple times for that matter.

- second wind still plays the blissfull respite animation wich takes longer and puts her in unguarded position longer than any other character that uses sesond wind. same feat yet inferior.

- the damage nerf on the zone was way too harsh when you take into account that other characters zone attacks are either faster and/or do more damage. 25 would have been reasonable similar to warlord. its funny because her zone was actually used for crowd controll to keep greedy gankers at bay as opposed to most other zones wich are used only as dueling tools.

- not sure what you mean by recovery numbers? the abilty to cancel recoery frames with dodge? that hasent changed much besides from the sidewinder backdodge thingy. if thats what you are refering too then what about most other assasins with that exact same ability? dont think there is a reason why nobushis cancel is so much more worse than shamans or berserkers.


im glad that you mention the timing of those changes because that is exactly whats suspicious. pk was as you said yourself reigning supreme for..... well since the start and the devs always stated they rather buff other heroes instead of flat out nerfing the top. and they held onto that policy for so long and never touched her since season 1 forward dash damage reduction.

i feel like in time everyone kind of resigned to how pk is played and kinda sucked it up. thats why probably no one expected the pk "rework" when it suddenly dropped. everyone was expecting only buffs for the lower tier since a nerf was so very unlikely to happen. and incidentally the one top scorer that reciefed the nerf was NOT shaman, even though her beeing mentioned way more often than pk.
and from the sound of it we can expect Lawbringer(also a top pick) to get a damper as well. still no word on shaman changes though.

you see this is exactly whats making me so suspicious about the way the characters are beeing balanced.

and to be clear i am fine with an

--- agile fast assasin shaman--

but i am NOT fine with a

---40/50 ub damage + insane throwdistance + more defence and healing feats than a tank character agile fast assasin shaman---

Lmfao resume is possibly the most non bias person on this forum. Not even going to bother with the rest of this post after that.

UbiJurassic
06-08-2018, 01:48 AM
Let's make sure this isn't getting to personal everyone. Last thing we need is a flame war, so let's make sure it stays constructive and on-topic.

Charmzzz
06-08-2018, 08:07 AM
I know PK was your main and all but I didn't expect to see hyperbull coming from you. Kind of thought you were above that.

Reading THIS:



To give you some examples on how we use this:

Peacekeeper was top tier in Season 5 for the top players, but below average for the average player. We still adjusted her with a slight nerf in season 6 because it was healthy for the competition.
These kind of stats show that the Peacekeeper is a hard to master character that performs well only at high level and we are fine with that. There are other easy to access heroes like the Kensei, and it can be a source of motivation to master the deadly Peacekeeper.

on here: https://old.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/8p4kuq/dev_response_to_state_of_balance_feedback/

was a slap in my face. #slight-nerf #go-play-Kensei-instead

On my Rep 50 PK, after the nerf, I had a tough time. After 2 weeks of suffering I decided to drop her and go Zerker instead. 3 days into Zerker now, and my average Stats are already climbing higher than what I could do on PK. #Balance

When they say something like:


With Nobushi’s slight nerf in S5 and the Peacekeeper changes in S6,1 we think Shaman will be in a sweet spot in 4v4. We wanted to diminish the supremacy of what we call “The Bleed Team”: Peacekeeper / Shaman / Nobushi by nerfing some of the Heroes of the team but most importantly buffing other Heroes to make them a valid pick.

it is pretty clear, isn't it? I mean saying that they wanted to diminish the supremacy of the "Bleed Team" by nerfing some Heroes is a very clear statement to me.

Vakris_One
06-08-2018, 04:19 PM
There are other easy to access heroes like the Kensei, and it can be a source of motivation to master the deadly Peacekeeper.
^ This is a very curious statement to make by the developers. First off, all the characters are easy to access. This isn't a very complicated fighting game where you have to remember long combo chains or vastly different attack inputs between heroes. It's very easy to be able to just pick up and play the majority of the roster and be good to okay with them. Mastering any one of them is what takes time and effort.

Secondly, PK has no depth to her gameplay therefore there is very little to master about her playstyle above knowing her basic and max punishes. Mastering the PK basically means cutting down on the mistakes you make with her. That's it really. The Kensei on the other hand actually has depth to his gameplay because he has a variety of options for a variety of situations and can actually switch between using more than 2 tactics, something which the PK cannot do because the developers themselves chose to leave her with a very monotone playstyle that still revolves around her zone option select.

She can't really surprise you. Zone option selecting, GB stab and bleed punishes and some light spam with heavy soft feints into bleed thrown in. That's it. Are they saying they're okay with a character that just revolves around doing the same 2 to 3 things over and over again and the mastery is in perfecting the art of not getting completely bored of your own routines?

DrinkinMyStella
06-08-2018, 04:33 PM
its mastering the entire rosters weakness that is the most difficult part of playing this game and the longest part to master.

CandleInTheDark
06-08-2018, 05:17 PM
I would prefer if they responded in here as well, it's like...the official forum.

To be honest I would have agreed with this more a few months ago when there was a lot more traffic here. A good deal of the people who would raise discussion have left, there are a whole lot fewer of us who are here day to day, today there are threads on the front page that were last posted in nearly 24 hours ago which even three or four months ago would not have happened and a good deal of the threads here are nerf threads that are more venting than actually starting a discussion.

On the other hand, reddit has a good deal more people over two subreddits, people who are more involved in tournament play and while on the main reddit you have to go through memes and videos, the threads like the one I linked gets heavy digital footfall and discussion. Yes this is the official forum but relatively speaking there are a good fewer of us here and fewer still that are interested in more than a sounding board for screaming at the devs over things the person screaming feels should have happened yesterday.

It has also long been said that the whole reason the devs can spend time on reddit is we have the community reps who do do a good job and pass on things from the forum, as highlighted in the last Q&A where most of the questions were from here, perhaps they could do better at crossposting some things like the response to feedback link I posted but they are here and active.

Knight_Raime
06-08-2018, 06:03 PM
Reading THIS:



on here: https://old.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/8p4kuq/dev_response_to_state_of_balance_feedback/

was a slap in my face. #slight-nerf #go-play-Kensei-instead

On my Rep 50 PK, after the nerf, I had a tough time. After 2 weeks of suffering I decided to drop her and go Zerker instead. 3 days into Zerker now, and my average Stats are already climbing higher than what I could do on PK. #Balance

When they say something like:


it is pretty clear, isn't it? I mean saying that they wanted to diminish the supremacy of the "Bleed Team" by nerfing some Heroes is a very clear statement to me.

I'm not denying the devs desire to reduce the bleed meta. I'm simply stating it's factually an ignorant statement to say that's the only reasons either hero was toned down. And ignoring the prior reasons to both character issues just because it's easier to blame the devs for not knowing how to deal with shaman is gross.

So I get where you're coming from. That doesn't mean I approve of your attitude or accept it. I viewed you as a rational individual. And that one post of yours was enough to shake my perspective about you. Which on a personal level is very hard to deal with. But that's on me. I shouldn't be so fragile.

Baturai
06-08-2018, 07:54 PM
Orochi was trash, still is a Trash. Storm rush 17 does damage no safe toplight afterwards. Why woud i use that shiity riptidestrike i i can simply zephrflash ? Its more safer :/ Ubisoft loves to blind people with fancy moves, but orochi now is nothing but a bee that tries to go through vanguard armir. I Hate ubisoft so much. İ hate noobs even more eho complain about orochi.

PanzerShrekonin
06-08-2018, 08:54 PM
I'm not denying the devs desire to reduce the bleed meta. I'm simply stating it's factually an ignorant statement to say that's the only reasons either hero was toned down. And ignoring the prior reasons to both character issues just because it's easier to blame the devs for not knowing how to deal with shaman is gross.

So I get where you're coming from. That doesn't mean I approve of your attitude or accept it. I viewed you as a rational individual. And that one post of yours was enough to shake my perspective about you. Which on a personal level is very hard to deal with. But that's on me. I shouldn't be so fragile.

I lost my personal respect for Charmz when he/she said they were going to reroll a FOTM berserker... and that right there is just.... I dont know. I find it sad.

I thought he would have chosen PK cause he liked how she played, not the fact she was broken since beta.

Now I know how he rolls and my view of him was shattered.

ChampionRuby50g
06-08-2018, 10:35 PM
To be honest I would have agreed with this more a few months ago when there was a lot more traffic here. A good deal of the people who would raise discussion have left, there are a whole lot fewer of us who are here day to day, today there are threads on the front page that were last posted in nearly 24 hours ago which even three or four months ago would not have happened and a good deal of the threads here are nerf threads that are more venting than actually starting a discussion.

On the other hand, reddit has a good deal more people over two subreddits, people who are more involved in tournament play and while on the main reddit you have to go through memes and videos, the threads like the one I linked gets heavy digital footfall and discussion. Yes this is the official forum but relatively speaking there are a good fewer of us here and fewer still that are interested in more than a sounding board for screaming at the devs over things the person screaming feels should have happened yesterday.

It has also long been said that the whole reason the devs can spend time on reddit is we have the community reps who do do a good job and pass on things from the forum, as highlighted in the last Q&A where most of the questions were from here, perhaps they could do better at crossposting some things like the response to feedback link I posted but they are here and active.

I’ve also noticed how the post volume has drastically dropped in the last few months. This is making me think the games population really is starting to drop, because when there was more posts in the forums, from the “regulars” and players who just made their accounts that hour to post, I found games in FH a lot quicker, the people I fought was different every match and at times you wouldn’t see the same person twice in a day. But now? Now in Oceania you’ll see someone from your last game in the next everytime, often if everyone has left the lobby and searches again we will all find each other again with some exceptions, and matchmaking does take a little bit longer which could easily be from the new MM changes, but still. I saw someone say the other day FH has more players now than it has before, but without hard numbers I find that hard to believe. People always say that “find new opponent” just nets them the same player 3 times in a row. Surely that wouldn’t happen if the games population was really larger than it had ever been? If it’s larger than it’s been before, why is dominion the only mode that sits on high-very high activity while others are permantly on low and rarely medium. At the start of the games life, I could find elimination and skirmish matches no dramas at all, and I believe I could do that because the population of the game was higher. Yes, the low xp/steel gain pushed people away, but a lot of people I’ve talked to said they’d still play Elinination in a heartbeat if they could find a game. This suggests that they don’t care about the xp, and it’s just a low population that is making it impossible to find those games. It’s sad really. I don’t like seeing so many community members give up and leave.

Tyrjo
06-09-2018, 07:37 AM
To be honest I would have agreed with this more a few months ago when there was a lot more traffic here. A good deal of the people who would raise discussion have left, there are a whole lot fewer of us who are here day to day, today there are threads on the front page that were last posted in nearly 24 hours ago which even three or four months ago would not have happened and a good deal of the threads here are nerf threads that are more venting than actually starting a discussion.


The spam bots are slowly choking the forum to death. It's the simple fact. That and the fact that the offical forum is not part of the official PR-policy.