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View Full Version : Return of "stall-flying" to the IL2 series



Jumoschwanz
06-19-2005, 01:47 PM
I got onto a Mustangs six very low over the water and was lining up a shot. This was on a server with full-difficulty settings.
He pulled back on his stick and stalled out the plane and started to spin like a leaf. I was very close when he did this and I was lucky to hit his spinning plane with a few 20mm rounds in the tail right before I passed over him. I don't think there was any more room between the bottom of my plane and the water to fit his Mustang from nose to tail.
I waited for the "enemy aircraft destroyed" on the HUD and was surprised there was none. Shortly after, I had tracers coming over my shoulder. The Mustang had recovered and got on my six and was firing!

The same night on a different full-difficulty server, I got on the six of a Spit5b. I fired a few rounds and he immediately pulled back into a spinning stall. He fell quite a ways in a spin then got out close to the ground. I was there to fire a few more shots at him and he repeated the same stunt, this time I thought too low to recover as again we were maybe twice as high as the trees. This time I watched as he straightened out the craft and flew on. I hit him a few more times and finally put him into the trees.

This was a common stunt in this sim two or three years ago. I know with patch 3.04 these pilots would not have gotten away with this trick at their low alt. Now it seems common. Anyone else run into this?

Also I am sure someone in a real Spit or Mustang would never go into a stall and spin fifty to a hundred feet above the ground and get out of it. This is the first bu!!**** thing I have noticed about the 4.01 flight model.

S!

Jumoschwanz

Jumoschwanz
06-19-2005, 01:47 PM
I got onto a Mustangs six very low over the water and was lining up a shot. This was on a server with full-difficulty settings.
He pulled back on his stick and stalled out the plane and started to spin like a leaf. I was very close when he did this and I was lucky to hit his spinning plane with a few 20mm rounds in the tail right before I passed over him. I don't think there was any more room between the bottom of my plane and the water to fit his Mustang from nose to tail.
I waited for the "enemy aircraft destroyed" on the HUD and was surprised there was none. Shortly after, I had tracers coming over my shoulder. The Mustang had recovered and got on my six and was firing!

The same night on a different full-difficulty server, I got on the six of a Spit5b. I fired a few rounds and he immediately pulled back into a spinning stall. He fell quite a ways in a spin then got out close to the ground. I was there to fire a few more shots at him and he repeated the same stunt, this time I thought too low to recover as again we were maybe twice as high as the trees. This time I watched as he straightened out the craft and flew on. I hit him a few more times and finally put him into the trees.

This was a common stunt in this sim two or three years ago. I know with patch 3.04 these pilots would not have gotten away with this trick at their low alt. Now it seems common. Anyone else run into this?

Also I am sure someone in a real Spit or Mustang would never go into a stall and spin fifty to a hundred feet above the ground and get out of it. This is the first bu!!**** thing I have noticed about the 4.01 flight model.

S!

Jumoschwanz

Monson74
06-19-2005, 01:56 PM
Well, throwing away all your E & not knowing which direction you'll be going when recovering can hardly put you in a position of advantage..
This is really a desperate act I think & while it's frustrating for the guy who was anticipating a kill it isn't a move that will endanger anyone but the pilot performing it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Grue_
06-19-2005, 02:24 PM
Maybe they were as ham fisted as I am and spun by accident http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

knightflyte
06-19-2005, 02:54 PM
Yes, but I think Jumoschwanz's post was wondering if this is realistic FM. If what he saw was accurate, and I've got no reason to doubt him, I too think that would not be realistic.
After all 2 tree lengths high would be 50 to 100 feet off the ground. I know when I try to take off and inadverdently do something stupid and induce a stall I'm dead. Can't be more height than what Jumoschwanz reported.

Stigler_9_JG52
06-19-2005, 03:17 PM
Splayfighting has always been with us in this sim, and to be honest, it's been in other sims as well.

The worst "bullsh*t result" you can get from this is when the moron pulls this stunt at extremely close range, and then YOU collide with him and he "flutters away" as if nothing happened. Or, you lose a wing and nothing happens to him.

Not really much to be done about it, unfortunately. It's an incredible risk on the part of the guy who does it, and the sim rewards him at times. I imagine in RL, you'd simply be dead pulling a stunt like that. At the very least, you could try a nice, sloppy barrel roll and buy some time that way.

F19_Ob
06-19-2005, 03:20 PM
Some stages of flight might need some tuning with the new FM.

I posted in ORR (bugreport)about the easy recovery of spins and stalls now and how some planes didn't need recovery at all.
P51D is one of the planes wich comes out of a spin just by throttling down and with no hands on stick.
I also tried to force it to a harder spin but no recovery is needed.
I posted a quick spintest on some planes and labeled them easy-medum-hard.
U might want to take a peek at it.
Perhaps it might be looked into if others too posts their experiences.

Badsight.
06-19-2005, 03:22 PM
stalls are not eaiser than ever to recover from , that is false

some stall's you enter do not want to correct quickly , some stalls go very violent & accellerate quickly

some pilots are simply better than others & can stall & recover better than most

but be sure , stalls are more different & varied than at any other time in FB's history

F19_Ob
06-19-2005, 04:51 PM
Please spintest the p51D (or any p51) and You'll understand what I mean.

Do the following:
Try to get yourself in hardest spin U can from lets say 3000m. Then release the stick and rudderpedals (no hands or feet) and throttle down to idle and watch yourself come out of the spin. If u test it 10 times I'm sure U get the same re****s everytime.
In real life sometimes a p51 could be quite difficult in a spin especially with a full tank.
Try to detect any difficulties.

After this test U will see that it's not crazy to assume that some tuning may be needed on some other planes aswell.

The Only one plane wich so far is unrecoverable in all spinning motions is the p39.
Haven't been able to come out of a developed spin (Always flatspin) in it yet, exept only once in a p63.
So here maybe they overdid it, but I think it's the only one.

Below is a part of my post in the bugreport in ORR if U want to peek at it and perhaps test the planes I tested.

------------------------------------------
I very much like the torque effect, but
tried to figure out why most planes in 4.01 are so easy to fly in dogfights.
I cant really say the turningability is changed(speaking generally) although the FM is new, but the stalls and spins seem much gentler and easier to recover from.
One doesen't need to be careful in the planes that had vicious snapstalls in 3.04.

In situations where it was likely to snapstall and/or spin in 3.04 planes now just have a gentle stall or make a couple of spinning motions but immediatly come out of it just by rolling or ruddering in the other direction.
The fully developed spins also feel quite easy to recover with a few exeptions.

I think the gentle stall and spin may be why for example the p38 is better now. It could make almost as good turns in 304 but then it had a snappy stall and spin if one wasn't careful, no risk of that now.
The same goes for P40, p39 and spits and p51d wich in 3.04 were quite dangerous in really slow speeds if one altered directions quickly.
------------------------------------------------

I just include a Spinrecovery-test from 3000m.


P39N1 seems hardest to recover from developed spins.
P51D (allp51's) no recovery needed, just throttle down.
P40- easy
P47- easy
spits- easy
Hurricane- easy
Yak1b -medium - hard.
yak7b -medium - hard
B-239 - easy
109e easy- medium
109G6 easy- easy medium
fw190 A5 - easy-medium
Ju87- medium
Fiats -easy
I.A.R. 81a medium-hard
p38j - easy
I-16 easy
IL-2 no recovery needed
LaGG3 medium-hard
La5 -easy-medium
mig3 -easy
F4F-3 - easy
corsairMK1 - easy
A20 - easy
Zeros- easy-medium
Ki43- esy
Ki61 -easy
Ki84-la Medium-hard

Others may think differently about the "easy-medium- hard" labels in this test. I just included that so U have a startingpoint if U find there is a need to check this out.

SeaFireLIV
06-19-2005, 05:01 PM
Hmmm... this must be the same flip thing that happened to me when I pulled hard on the stick in a P38 and flipped for several revolutions. It didn`t feel right then, but now that people are using it to get out of trouble (and surviving) it definitely feels wrong.

Again... a feeling. But i`ve not read, seen or heard of WWII pilots using this technique to escape a bogey in a dogfight. Something like a induced cart-wheeling flip I would remember.

Bearcat99
06-19-2005, 05:17 PM
I think a lot of this depends on how fast you are going..... in many cases you .. or I lately... managed to avoid a full blown stall and recovered however once I DO get into a full stall it is harder to recover... especially if I am low and slow... that means it islawndart time.

knightflyte
06-19-2005, 07:45 PM
Didn't the US ban lawn darts? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Jumoschwanz
06-19-2005, 07:49 PM
Yea,

the main reason I bring this up is that it does not seem realistic to me anyone could stall and spin a WWII fighter at such low alt and recover.
I read stuff about getting into spins in P40s and it was accepted that if you did it under so many THOUSANDS of feet you may as well just bail because you were not going to get out of it.
Yes, there are lots of acrobatic pilots doing amazing low altitude stalls and spins at airshows, but they are not doing them in WWII fighters, and those that do this online are the ones who do it out of either panic or a lack of any idea of what to do if someone is on thier six shooting.

I am sure the new flight model is capable of much more than the earlier one, but that does not necessarily mean it has been set to do more, see?

S!
Jumoschwanz

WWMaxGunz
06-19-2005, 11:16 PM
That Mustang, how high up did he go before stalling out and starting the spin?

About how fast did he spin and how many times around?

Was it a flat spin or nose down?

It doesn't sound good anyway.

LEBillfish
06-19-2005, 11:49 PM
I actually use stalls when fighting...The trick is in knowing how to ride that razors edge and sensing when it's about to bust loose....

4.01 deffinately helps you to feel or sense things stunningly better. Because of that I believe you can "recover easier"....Not that the FM allows it (though it may)...Yet you seem to feel what you need to do.

However, as to what you posted (and am guessing) it sounds like he encountered a "high" speed stall, meaning he was not diving yet running horizontal or better... So that would mean he had E, the trouble is to get the plane to where that E works for you and allows the control surfaces to do their job....Slowing often helps that.

What I'll do "sometimes" in such a goof is drop the flaps...Might jam them but better then crashing....Along with that I'll also counter the spin with rudder...and if real bad drop gear.

Naturally all of that slows you, yet due to a combinatin of things you are pointing usually down now. So you say "but low alt!! in you go". Well not always true as remember he pulled up...so up you go, then down yet you already have your flaps opened and have slowed so once you stop the spin you have that real tight turning ability you can only get slow.

So if lucky, and I've kicked up a lot of dust...You just barely pull out as you are closing up flaps and gear and your energy starts to return from the "now" dive....

and away you go.

So better feel, some paniced responses, and you might just do it. (don't get me wrong, I crash a lot too...don't try this in a 4.01 FW http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)

Te_Vigo
06-20-2005, 03:07 AM
The flick or snap roll is an accelerated stall combining a rapid increase in aoa to near critical with a full slip, and brought about, when flying at something less than maximum cruise, by pulling the control column smartly back as far as it will go while kicking on full left or right rudder. The wing in the direction of the applied rudder stalls first and the aircraft flicks onto its back or may roll 360?. The faster the entry speed the higher the asymmetric load on the airframe, but the slower the speed the greater the likelihood of entering a spin and recovery technique is dependent on several variables. The roll is usually a lot snappier in the opposite direction to propeller rotation.

http://www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/umodule8.html

ClnlSandersLite
06-20-2005, 03:21 AM
So, you're saying stall fighting ever left? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

F19_Ob
06-20-2005, 04:25 AM
He he...So, no one tested my suggestion?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Well, soon as u test the p51 in spins the way I suggested in my post above U'll see what's wrong.

It will rule out all other questions like how high, and how fast it stalled or accellerated.
There seem only to be one kind.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

OldMan____
06-20-2005, 05:27 AM
This effect is achieved by tieing up Cats and bread with butter in strategic places of planes. The two most powerfull forces of nature will make that plane spin to correct position (where the Cats always hit ground with claws down and bread with butter always hit with butter down). This makes possible to receover from astoneshing spins.

Please Oleg, the butter is clearly overmodelled.

knightflyte
06-20-2005, 05:49 AM
LOL

cute analogy OldMan____

F19_Ob
06-20-2005, 06:03 AM
I need only 750m alt to recover from spin in the p51D.
The swedish airforce apparently needed atleast 1000m for a simple spin in their p51D's and sometimes 3000m for a harder one.
They also claimed a spin with full throttle was irreversable because it developed to a flatspin.
Full throttle spins in 4.01 is a walk in the park though.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Jumoschwanz
06-20-2005, 06:03 AM
Thanks for the time you took for your tests F19_Ob.
SAnders: Panic moves by noobs have never left this sim and never will. But the ability to get away with them without crashing comes and goes with different patches.


The stalls I saw online that were recovered from at very low alt were low speed, as they were after the fight became a match of low speed, low alt turn fighting.
I will admit to spending thousands of hours over the last three and a half years flying this sim online alone. So I see and notice trends. Many weeks in this time period I have spent an easy FORTY hours flying in online servers. Can we save how well a spending of time this has been for another thread on obsessive-compulsive disorder? thanks.

The planes I saw lose it and recover at very low alt is something I have not seen for a long time. These planes really lost it. Stalling out nose high, then into a head over heels spin that had absolutely no more look of control than if someone threw a chair in the air, then into a flat spin. This entailed many revolutions, not just one or two.
The article I read about the P-40, when the pilot stalled it and got into a spin at low alt. He got out of it using a lucky panic move entailing full throttle. This happened right over his airfield with many witnesses. Many of superiors wanted to know how he got out of the spin at such a low alt because it had never been done before. He had no answer for them.

The hours I have spent flying online dogfight servers had given me the ability to call when a pilot was doomed at low alt by the attitude of his plane almost every time. So when I see something unusual or a new trend with a new patch it is not a complete delusion anyway.

There is nothing wrong with being a green virtual pilot in combat and putting a plane into a spin out of lack of training as to what to do or out of sheer panic.

I would just like the point of this thread to be the question of whether or not this type of recovery would be regularly possible by a real pilot in an actual WWII fighter aircraft.

And secondly, we have the same behaviour of flight models in this aspect as we had years ago. In the time of the original Il2 and maybe early FB this was a common low alt evasive manuever for the panicking noob with no other trick in his bag to use. IN the case of the original IL2, one of these noobs was me!

I have read some fighter aircraft in WWII WERE easy to recover from a stall, the FW190 for instance! This does not mean a spin though, and it certainly does not mean at low speed and 100 feet off the ground.

S!

Jumoschwanz

Philipscdrw
06-20-2005, 06:03 AM
Are you certain that it was the same aircraft? Silly question really. But could it have been someone else who you weren't aware of, sitting on your 6?

Jumoschwanz
06-20-2005, 06:11 AM
Yes Philip, there is a possibility it was a different aircraft. But after thousands of hours on full-difficulty server over the last three and a half years, there is not too much that gets by me or tricks me. I almost always know what planes are around me and where they are, and in this case I was tangling with one mustang and not two.

It was not in a furball we were the only two planes around, and it was over water at low alt, so it was easy to see for a long ways around what was there and what was not. It was me and him.
S!
Jumoschwanz

WholeHawg
06-20-2005, 07:23 AM
I have been reading the responses to this initial post and it seems a few folks are under the impression that stalls and spins are the same. If the bulk of your flight experience came from this Sim, I understand why you think this way.

It is quite easy to recover from a stall in just a few feet if you know what your doing. In the 3.04 FM every instance of airflow seperation resulted in a violent spin, never a simple stall. The 4.0 model seems less abrupt in that regard.

There is a tendency of some folks on this board to assume that if something is harder it has to be more realistic!!! I dont know if I buy in to that assumption. Unless someone with some significant flight time in any or all of these aircraft steps up to the plate, we are just thowing out opinions on our perception of reality based on and what we have heard or read.

I have flight time in Hueys and a variety of civilian fixed wing aircraft, So I don't know if the 4.0 model is closer to the reality of flying a WWII fighter than 3.04. However it would seem that way based on my flight experience and anecdotal evidence. Again, thats just my opinion.

And for those of you interested here is an article on stalls.

http://www.erau.edu/er/newsmedia/articles/wp3.html

Udidtoo
06-20-2005, 08:15 AM
Flying alone for a feel of the new FM I was removing a cat that thought "Hmmm, he's flying inverted, good time to jump in Jim's lap" and stalled a Wildcat at about 750 feet.

It only took 2 complete revolutions to correct and I hardly lost energy. Having never flown a real plane I can't say "Thats wrong" but common sense says it was a bit too easy.

That being said if I have to choose between stall/spins that are a little simplified or the unrecoverable ones no matter the situation we have had with other versions I believe I'd rather have the simplified ones.

Petey78
06-20-2005, 08:15 AM
The speed at which an autorotative monouvre is entered has a significant bearing as to how long it persists. If you flick into a spin, it may take a fair bit of time to get out as it takes a while for the aircraft to "settle into" the spin. Until the aircraft is in a 'fully developed spin, the attitude of the nose and the rate of rotation may well be extremely variable and hence control corrections required may be immensely variable to recover. I get the impression that the P40 pilot who recovered the 'unrecoverable' spin got very lucky with his throttle settings and through fluke managed to match the spinning effect of the aircraft with the torque reaction of his engine, thus coming out earlier than he might if it had been a case of mere control responses. The rate of decent is fairly low in a fully developed spin when compared with a spiral dive and normal dive, some aircraft pull out more easily than others (it's a matter of control response and longitudinal stability), I don't know if this patch is correct, however, I do remember watching my father performing aerobatics in a RL Tiger Moth and remember being surprised at the low altitude that he was able to spin and safely recover (he was a bit crazy but he died in bed and not in an aeroplane so he must have been getting something right)!

WholeHawg
06-20-2005, 09:01 AM
Petey78... Agreed.

There is another factor we may not be considering in scenario Jumoschwanz described that dovetails with what Petey78 states and that is server/network lag.

What I mean is, just because you see a "....stalled out the plane and started to spin like a leaf. "

What the pilot on the other side is doing may be something else entirely. I have see some strange stuff happen that I know isn't due to the flight model.

Freelancer-1
06-20-2005, 09:12 AM
I guess I picked the wrong ride.

The P-39's will still spin in a heartbeat and the only option is to bail out.

I did manage to recover from an inverted flat spin, which I have never managed to do before. It took nearly 3000 meters to do it, though.

If anybody has found a new recovery method for the P-39s in 4.01, I'd be happy to hear from them.

On an aside, I am noticing a lot more UFO's on servers with higher difficulty settings than I used to. Symptoms of the new FM?

Freelancer

HayateAce
06-20-2005, 09:47 AM
What's the BFD?

BogusFantasy~109s have been pulling off this **** for a long time. Now somebody sees a single Mustang recover at low alt from a spin and all of the sudden is OMG OLEG REDO THE FRIGGIN FM WHAAAAAAA!

Get back in your Bfantasy 109 and pull your stick some more.

Oleg: 109 is new best fake staller:

http://www.pedalcarsandretro.com/store/files/images/Pedal_Plane_Red_240.jpg

Huckebein_UK
06-20-2005, 10:18 AM
Do you never get bored with doing that? Do you think people read it and laugh; 'now there's a funny guy!'?

I, for one, wish that people would accept this sim as the best approxiamtion of real life performance that Oleg has been able to create, and accept that aircraft were different. I am not saying this in reference to this particualr thread, so please bear with me. I have been deeply, deeply interested in WWII air combat since I was 10, and have a fairly decent idea in my head as to what it was really like, and yet whenever I lose an online fight it never even occurs to me to blame the FM! I have often been surprised that someone has followed a certain manoeuvre in a certain plane, but always put it down to them having managed to retain more E than I had expected, or some similar excuse. I cannot understand why people don't just note down or memorise these instances and simply try and allow for them next time? Do your best with what you have and have fun doing it! The one thing that's ever really pissed me off is the times that I've been knocked down by single (or at least very few) 30mm hits. I have been briefly tempted to have a go at the pilot for only needing to land one shot to score a kill, as opposed to the scores of shots usually required using my weapons, but then I have remembered; 'He is flying an aircraft of his choice, which is capable of mounting a 30mm weapon. A 30mm weapon, in air-air combat is a heavy gun. Getting hit by it, whether or not it was by a pilot who took good aim first, is probably not a good idea. Solution? Don't abuse the pilot, or the modelling of the weapon, do try extra hard next time not to get into a position where you may find yourself colliding with 30mm HE shells, and most importantly, have fun doing it!

Having said that, I read with interest when someone pulls up a particular area of the FM, as with this thread, and honestly queries it's accuracy compared to real-life. The P-51 was used as an example, but was by no means the butt of the entire complaint - the point was made regarding all aircraft's stall performances.

People like Hayateace, however, despite having posted several coherent and intelligent posts in the past, command the least of my respect of all on these forums. The very least! A bogus anagram here (hilarious!), a healthy batch of puerile caps there (oh, the wit!), the gratuitous but yet ubiquitous starred-out oath (such maturity! He didn't really say that? To him? Did he?), and then all topped off with an arrogant final statement (dominant, strong; I like it!) and a picture of a toy plane (so subtle! He's hinting, tongue-in-cheek, that the flying attributes of a '109 in Oleg's sim would more readily be attributable to a toy plane, and that FB's '109 is little more than such because of it! Do you get it?).

Please don't do it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif , it's not funny, it's not clever, it is annoying, and you are capable of far more worthy posts than that.

Please just lay it to rest as a briefly different, but quickly old spate of posts that you'd rather forget, hmmm? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Right, sorry, rant over. I'm tired and I need a rest, and Jumoschwanz et al, this is an interesting thread that may be on the way to highlighting a slight discrepancy regarding 4.01's FM; please continue.

Phew.

darkhorizon11
06-20-2005, 10:23 AM
I can't explain the phenomena in the game but I'll tell you that stalls are still 100 percent UNREALISTIC.

The auto-rotation you encounter is a SPIN not a stall.

F19_Ob
06-20-2005, 10:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Huckebein_UK:

I, for one, wish that people would accept this sim as the best approxiamtion of real life performance that Oleg has been able to create, and accept that aircraft were different. I am not saying this in reference to this particualr thread, so please bear with me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep the best sim yet, and yes, some people whine when they aren't happy (wrong or not).
I view this from another perspective though.

The FM is new and perhaps not tuned in all aspects of flight yet (like with the earler patches) and we all are like betatesters so we kindof must find the anomalies if we want them fixed.
These things take time and olegs team seemingly consist of too few people to be able to complete this task alone.

Personally this likely is my last sim because I'm unable to upgrade for BoB and for me it's especially important to get as much as possible fixed before my fun ends.
Since I have time on my hands I do my best to Test and find all things that seem out of place and leave it to Oleg to decide how to deal with it.
Without help he wont find the problems as fast, if at all.


Some "feel" more than they test and Some things are obvious wrongs and others are diffuse but Olegs team will quickly sort the reports after importance and credibility, having the deeper knowledge of whats altered or not.

Well, my take on it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
regards

WWMaxGunz
06-20-2005, 10:59 AM
I've read from a RL (an virtual but he does it for real) team aerobatics member and from a
pilot who is currently in school for aero engineering posted right on the ORR that the stalls
are now more realistic than they have ever been.

Sorry but actually every bit real isn't possible.

WWMaxGunz
06-20-2005, 11:06 AM
I had understood from way back that if you can catch a spin in the first turn or two, before
it has time to develop, that it should be easier to get out of. That is why I asked how high
the P-51 raised before going into the stall and then spin. Also why I asked how many times
he went around, and what kind of spin. Sometimes as has been pointed out you are just in a
good position, there is no rule about 1000's of feet or meters lost but you wouldn't want to
be low and spin just to test your luck!

Possible that the planes generate lift during spin and not fall fast enough? It's a flight
model and maybe the wings are modelled as getting lift, not stalled out. Maybe. Possible?

F19_Ob
06-20-2005, 11:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
are now more realistic than they have ever been.

Sorry but actually every bit real isn't possible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree fully.

But there are simple fixes that can be done, like giving p51's atleast some spincharacteristics wich require spinrecovery instead of just throttling down and releasing stick. This is highly possible since other planes have that.
Wouldn't you agree?

The new FM it just needs some tuning here and there, just like in earlier patches and I'm perfectly happy with that.

Likely they have missed things like this and thats why we have to help.
As I see it it's not getting fixed if we leave it.

F19_Ob
06-20-2005, 11:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
I had understood from way back that if you can catch a spin in the first turn or two, before
it has time to develop, that it should be easier to get out of. That is why I asked how high
the P-51 raised before going into the stall and then spin. Also why I asked how many times
he went around, and what kind of spin. Sometimes as has been pointed out you are just in a
good position, there is no rule about 1000's of feet or meters lost but you wouldn't want to
be low and spin just to test your luck!

Possible that the planes generate lift during spin and not fall fast enough? It's a flight
model and maybe the wings are modelled as getting lift, not stalled out. Maybe. Possible? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



I need only 750m alt to recover from the hardest spin in the p51D. Cant get it harder anyway.

The swedish airforce apparently needed atleast 1000m for a simple spin in their p51D's and sometimes 3000m for a harder one.
They also claimed a spin with full throttle was irreversable because it developed to a flatspin.
Full throttle spins in 4.01 is a walk in the park though in the p51's.

Freelancer-1
06-20-2005, 11:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:

Possible that the planes generate lift during spin and not fall fast enough? It's a flight
model and maybe the wings are modelled as getting lift, not stalled out. Maybe. Possible? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would say that is a good observation.

When I bail out of a P-39 in a flat spin, I drop like a stone past it. After I open my chute the plane will leisurely pass me at a relative few meters per second or so.

Too bad we can't just climb out on the wing and jump up and down a few times. That's the kind of immersion I'd like.

Freelancer

Huckebein_UK
06-20-2005, 12:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Freelancer-1:

Too bad we can't just climb out on the wing and jump up and down a few times. That's the kind of immersion I'd like.

Freelancer </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You might even knock it out of the spin! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jumoschwanz
06-20-2005, 01:54 PM
I am just interested in the reality part of it. Now that I have 4.01 working, I am having an actual WWII pilot with single engine fighter and bomber experience, and a current owner of an AT-6 and 2/3 scale plywood mustang come over to try out the sim.

I am impressed with this sim and love it. But I am kind of scared having these two real pilots over to try it out. Will they enjoy it or smile while they are thinking "what a piece of ****, go get yourself a real plane". The AT-6 pilot already told me he never tried a flight sim he was impressed with at all, (gulp). And several patches ago I had the WWII pilot over and he said right off the bat the plane did not respond to the stick how it should.

They will be over within a week, so I will let everyone know what they think about 4.01.

S!

Jumoschwanz

Atomic_Marten
06-20-2005, 04:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Jumo wrote:
"stall-flying" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He he that will only delay inevitable for a few moments, nothing more. That is if you miss him and he did not crash while attempting to recover.

However it can be lifesaver if the help is on the way.

But I find intentional stall to be more deathtrap than a valid escape tactic.

Imagine if you had enough space between you and him. You will then ease the throttle and riddle him to look like a Swiss cheese Mk.I.

Atomic_Marten
06-20-2005, 04:19 PM
Also I have seen such (really weird) behaviour online but I have blamed lag for that.(if he moves stick fast to many directions, it can produce some weird sighting).

It would be nice to see the track, if you have one..

Freelancer-1
06-20-2005, 09:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Huckebein_UK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Freelancer-1:

Too bad we can't just climb out on the wing and jump up and down a few times. That's the kind of immersion I'd like.

Freelancer </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You might even knock it out of the spin! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My thoughts exactly, we're like two peas in a pod, we are.

Freelancer

JG53Hunter
06-21-2005, 12:23 AM
about the stall issue with the P-39:

Yesterday i saw Leadspitter and another guy chating about the flatspin of the P-39.
I told em i could recover the P-39, beacause i had flown the P-39 N1 in a dogfightserver with friends some days before and i was able to recover her from a flatspin on that occasion.
Leadspitter asked me to show it to him and so we set up a DF-server.

I was able to recover the P39-N1 (50% fuel) after about 1000m lost altitude. Then he asked me to try the Q10. At the first try i wasnt able to recover her. But on the second try i got her out of the flatspin after about 1200m. We did some more testing and the best result i got was getting out of flatspin (including recovery http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) after 900m.

To get out of the spin i used full side rudder, flaps fully deployed, gear down and throttle 0%. In the Q10 i needed to give full elevator down to get out of the stall. Later on we discovered that gear down or gear up made no difference http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Greetings,
III/JG53#Hunter in HL

Atomic_Marten
06-21-2005, 07:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Hunter:
To get out of the spin i used full side rudder, flaps fully deployed, gear down and throttle 0%. In the Q10 i needed to give full elevator down to get out of the stall. Later on we discovered that gear down or gear up made no difference http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Greetings,
III/JG53#Hunter in HL </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now this is some good info there. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Tell me one more thing; did you use ailerons as well? In combination with elevator down, full rudder in opposite way, ailerons in opposite way of spin?

JG53Hunter
06-21-2005, 10:37 AM
If i did i wasnt aware of it. I will have a look about that the next time. Every time things came to stalling i was told "dont aply ailerons!"
So i think in a real airplane that would be the last thing to do in an flatspin. Though im no pilot that is just a gues of me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I think i will do a search on google about the flatspin to get some real life advice.


Edit: When the nose pointed down (nearly vertical) and the plane was gaining speed i used the ailerons to stop the rotating motion of the longitudinal axis. Opposite direction of the rotation.

Edit2: I found a good german page about this theme. Its the page of a german sailplane producer. In an articel they wrote, that in an flatspin (full flatspin, nerly no nose down attitude) neither the rudder nor the elevator has any effect on the plane. That is because both control surfaces are completly stalled.

The only way to get out of an flat spin is to make an adjustment to the trim masses or to drop trim mass (remember: they are building sailplanes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). Another thing that would help is a brake-parachute.

Quote from that page: "If you dont have a brake parachute better think of that parachute you have on your back" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The very good original german artikle can be found here:
http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/trudeln-d.html