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KotoKuraken
05-04-2018, 08:54 PM
I know this is kind of a very specific matchup, but what can an Orochi do against Beserker? I can't see much of anything that he can do now, and I don't think his rework will make him able to deal with Berserker any better.

Currently the only way I see to counter him is to either parry or deflect, and both are nearly impossible to do against an opponent who has constant unrelenting attacks, and he doesn't get staggered when I block. If I try to use either of my countering dashes, he just powers through it with a much more powerful attack. If I try to parry, well most of the time it doesn't end well because he's got 400ms lights on top of his already super fast heavies that can't be interrupted and can either fly or change direction at the last second. And if I try to deflect, I just get guardbroken because he just ignores my attacks, guardbreaks me, and then I'm out nearly half my health.

I don't even know how the rework will make him any better against Berserker, considering his countering moves are now going to be light attacks and there are no tools to counterattack against this speedy hyperarmor tank assassin. I thought Orochi was supposed to be a counter attacker, but he can't effectively counter attack against Berserker and I don't think this rework will make him any more able to counter attack him if all he got was faster light attacks

BTTrinity
05-04-2018, 09:22 PM
I know this is kind of a very specific matchup, but what can an Orochi do against Beserker? I can't see much of anything that he can do now, and I don't think his rework will make him able to deal with Berserker any better.

Currently the only way I see to counter him is to either parry or deflect, and both are nearly impossible to do against an opponent who has constant unrelenting attacks, and he doesn't get staggered when I block. If I try to use either of my countering dashes, he just powers through it with a much more powerful attack. If I try to parry, well most of the time it doesn't end well because he's got 400ms lights on top of his already super fast heavies that can't be interrupted and can either fly or change direction at the last second. And if I try to deflect, I just get guardbroken because he just ignores my attacks, guardbreaks me, and then I'm out nearly half my health.

I don't even know how the rework will make him any better against Berserker, considering his countering moves are now going to be light attacks and there are no tools to counterattack against this speedy hyperarmor tank assassin. I thought Orochi was supposed to be a counter attacker, but he can't effectively counter attack against Berserker and I don't think this rework will make him any more able to counter attack him if all he got was faster light attacks

Going to say, this is more of a problem with Zerk than Orochi.... His rework will help though I think simply due to riptide slash rework, and youll have a much easier time keeping on the offensive without being as predictable as his offensive side is right now. Still dont think the fight will be in Orochis favor though.

RenegadeTX2000
05-04-2018, 09:44 PM
Going to say, this is more of a problem with Zerk than Orochi.... His rework will help though I think simply due to riptide slash rework, and youll have a much easier time keeping on the offensive without being as predictable as his offensive side is right now. Still dont think the fight will be in Orochis favor though.

nah, berserker will beat the new orochi, the counter attack method won't mean a thing when berserker can hyper armor trade in his favor and get his momentum going. Orochi can't take advantage of a whiff because of that armor, also berserker hits harder then orochi in general.

KotoKuraken
05-04-2018, 09:50 PM
nah, berserker will beat the new orochi, the counter attack method won't mean a thing when berserker can hyper armor trade in his favor and get his momentum going. Orochi can't take advantage of a whiff because of that armor, also berserker hits harder then orochi in general.

That's what I was thinking for the most part. The problem I've been facing against Berserker while learning Orochi is just that he has hyperarmor up 99% of the time, and I'm not able to knock it down like with Shugoki or work around it like with Warlord. With that being the sole problem, I'm not sure how much quicker attacks will work if they won't stagger him anyway and I still get hit after landing a successful blow/punish.

As I understood it, hyperarmor was supposed to help tanks survive light spam, but it doesn't make much sense when it's present on a light spammer with no way to make progress towards bringing it down or working around it.

RenegadeTX2000
05-04-2018, 09:52 PM
That's what I was thinking for the most part. The problem I've been facing while learning Orochi is just that he has hyperarmor up 99% of the time, and I'm not able to knock it down like with Shugoki or work around it like with Warlord. With that being the sole problem, I'm not sure how much quicker attacks will work if they won't stagger him anyway and I still get hit after landing a successful blow/punish.

As I understood it, hyperarmor was supposed to help tanks survive light spam, but it doesn't make much sense when it's present on a light spammer with no way to make progress towards bringing it down or working around it.

yeah, right now my top 3 is still pk/zerker/Conqueror. I just don't know the order of the best. Orochi is better though, I just don't think he'll last in the long run. I need to see how much distance his new moves cover tbh, and how good it is at crowd control.

Knight_Raime
05-04-2018, 11:01 PM
If orochi's storm rush and riptide have good enough range they can out range zerk. Rochi's hurricane blast mix ups are already pretty good against a zerk who just spams HA attacks. The match up still probably won't be in rochi's favor. But the fight imo will be much closer providing rochi has range.

Knight_Raime
05-04-2018, 11:32 PM
I suppose you'd hold Stormrush, cancel it, pull a Riptide then follow up into his new Ara-style light combo with 400ms followups right in Zerk's face, effectively disrupting most of what Zerk may attempt in your face. Zerk would either have to retreat then whiff a hit for a hyperarmored followup, or land his zone somehow then proceed to HA from there. It's going to be a tough matchup for both, honestly. One has more reliable counters, the other has hyperarmor, both are fast.

that 400ms follow up even on block (since SR is a heavy) is going to be killer. Can't wait.

RenegadeTX2000
05-05-2018, 09:00 AM
First thing I'm testing is dodging the Storm Rush and going for a punish before Orochi can get his 400ms light off... Sort of like punishing Highlander Celtic Curse.

and since they nerfed the speed of him cancelling his Storm Rush into Guard Break, that's one of the weaknesses i'll try and expose on Orochi.

and to make sure he doesn't bait, just dodge the moment you see a cursor... That's the new testing to beat orochi Storm Rush.


Riptide Strike on the other hand... That move scares me lool. I don't want to whiff in front of that move.

PDXGorechild
05-05-2018, 12:47 PM
@OP Play really well defensively and parry punish/deflect. If you canít do that youíll have to go on the offensive. Going toe to toe with a berserker isnít a good match up for Orochi tbh. Try and keep a bit of distance, dart in and out with storm rush and riptide strike and control the space. Get backed into a corner and youíre in trouble.

- Bait dodge attacks and the parry if he buys it. Counts as a light parry. I fool for this more often than I should.
- Most Zerks will open with a feinted heavy into light coming from the opposite side. Sometimes the same side. Rarely on top as the light is actually 100ms slower at 500ms. Be prepared to counter it if you know you wonít be able to dodge out in time.
- Zerk is difficult to manage stamina on and a lot of players are reckless. Keep an eye out for a well timed parry and you have a chance to OOS punish.

Practice against a level 3 zerker bot programmed to do dance of the paired blades on arena. He feints quite a lot so you can practice guessing blocks. Not a major Orochi player but just a few tips from my perspective :)

Happy hunting!

HazelrahFirefly
05-05-2018, 02:54 PM
I expect the Orochi to win by having more focus on counter attacking and waiting still, despite his new kit. This is already how I've been dealing with Berserkers, and I think people are fooling themselves if they believe the Orochi can be that much more offensive now. It's more like they just opened up opportunities for him to get an extra hit now and then.

Kelson27
05-05-2018, 03:07 PM
Really wanna flip your lid? Explain this:

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/kd27/video/49338050

Now to reproduce it 😋

Iíve been playing a lot with deflects, trying to decipher what they actually meant re: the deflect changes last den as it was a little unclear. Iím now deflecting consecutive lights/heavies fairly consistently, but I remember in the stream they mentioned deflecting and going for a light attack will continue to deflect incoming consecutive attacks and get through at the end - I can say 100% this isnít true for any chains so far, I thought it might have been a reprieve against ara light chains or perhaps zerk offensive assaults.

Itís more like if you deflect zerks zone youíll deflect all the hits and then can go for something after the zone. But even then, if you input an attack while deflecting it isnít consistent that it comes out at the end. In fact sometimes inputting an attack while the deflect is happening actually takes you out of your deflect altogether and youíll just eat the remaining hits... so... not only is it one of the hardest things to actually deflect in my experience, sometimes youíll just stop deflecting after a hit or two and eat the damage anyway, jokes on the deflector for even trying AND pulling off something with such high risk.

I was hoping theyíd say something about deflects in the den when orochi came up for reworks. As of right now I think the risk/reward of going for a deflect simply isnít worth it unless used on very specific moves. Itís so much easier to parry and get in guaranteed damage to launch off that eating anything if you miss your deflect is just gonna get you stumbling in recovery and eating more damage. They are a lot of fun to pull off in multiplayer though 😋

Feints make this doubly so, youíve got to be on point with deflects, as soon as a feint comes in you pretty much eat whatever comes next as you dodge right into it. You almost need to be able to cancel deflect/dodges for it to be viable against their cancelled attacks... I donít know what that would do gameplay wise but just another way deflect seems the inferior option to just about anything, except scaring off light spamming inexperienced players.

TLDR: deflects ainít much help, and hyper armour is a monster against orochi currently. If I was to hazard a guess about the new rework, you wonít get through the hyper armour and come off best without a parry, at a pinch maybe using riptide and the follow up quick dodge orochi is getting, with some crazy good timing can have them eat damage and continue their chain while you get out of the way of their follow up attack, and continue eating away at them in turn, kind of trading his attack with your dodge, then your attack into another dodge actually making the hyper armour work against them. Also seems risky, but that would be fairly counterattack-ish as orochi is supposed to be. We just need to know if A: that can be done or B: how much stamina orochi has up his sleeve with the new move set. If you can only go for a counterattack riptide and it eats most your stamina then one gb you could be in a bunch of trouble. Have to wait and see!

RenegadeTX2000
05-05-2018, 08:12 PM
once people figure out the new patterns of orochi, people will expose him more. but i can't get over how fast that riptide strike is. man that thing looks nice lol.

Storm rush just looks like a way to get in and to punish big looping attacks that whiff. But Riptide can punish characters whiff like warden top light that has hardly any recovery when thrown in neutral. It punishes that, Riptide strike is legit, best whiff punisher in the game

RenegadeTX2000
05-05-2018, 11:50 PM
Stormrush coming from the top stance will be undodgeable from any side, it will most likely adopt the property of Lightning Strike (forward dash top light), I tested that on another thread yesterday. So if Orochi will do it from the top, you'll be forced into a block/parry scenario. I also believe it's gonna be faster that Lightning Strike. Now I'm unsure whether Orochi will have some recovery upon having it blocked, or if he can proceed into doing a light attack, such as what he can do right after Riptide. But he can surely chain a light after Riptide as demonstrated in the stream footage. Though I'm pretty sure if he wants to counter Zerk he'll have to use Riptide more because Riptide is faster than Stormrush.

Also @OP, as Gorechild said, Zerk's stamina management is much harder, so pressure Zerk enough and they'll either be afraid to go OOS, or they'll go OOS. Try to avoid using Orochi's zone to try to outlast Zerk's stamina.

Some characters when they dodge, they are able to keep the guard stance where they left it, so dodging while having the guarding stance high will nullify Orochi mix up

RenegadeTX2000
05-06-2018, 02:29 AM
Yes, very true. This was tested yesterday as well. With static guard, if your guard was in top stance prior to dodging, you'll still block the attack. Tested yesterday on Lightning Strike while dodging in all directions, and it got blocked in all directions.

I'm wondering about Conq. Whether he gets a free superior block and free counter off of the blocked Stormrush top, because even a forward dodge will block the hit if your guard was in top stance.

Conq will get caught lol. But he doesn't need to dodge, just do that dumb*** zone and beat all the options including cancel.

KotoKuraken
05-07-2018, 08:08 AM
Yea I was encountering some issues fighting Conq as well. With most of Orochi's main moves coming in the form of non-feintable moves, Conq is able to predictably throw down his full guard or zone. I can kinda get around the full guard by guardbreaking or reacting to his next move, but he's able to punish Orochi pretty well. Not impossible, but definitely close.

I'm wondering how speed alone is going to help nullify Conq's defenses, but it's not looking very likely. I don't want Orochi to become the next overpowered rework, but I'm not seeing much in this rework to address the problems he currently has, aside from speed and recovery speed.

High-Horse
05-07-2018, 04:51 PM
Kind of off topic, but I think but would be nice if hyperarmor attacks could be broken and interrupted if they take a second hit before it lands.

As a zerker, I always thought the class had an advantage over other assassins because of the HA and high damage trades, and especially over Orochi for some reason.

RenegadeTX2000
05-07-2018, 05:30 PM
the only time berserker should have hyper armor is when he throws his heavies/unblockables. him having it on his lights is dumb lol

SpaceJim12
05-07-2018, 05:40 PM
and to make sure he doesn't bait, just dodge the moment you see a cursor... That's the new testing to beat orochi Storm Rush.

But new Storm Rush have undodgeable top attack.

RenegadeTX2000
05-07-2018, 06:39 PM
But new Storm Rush have undodgeable top attack.

have guard on top, then dodge. if predictable or reactions are top level. just parry.

RenegadeTX2000
05-07-2018, 06:41 PM
I see myself getting hit by the side lights that come out at 400ms, delayed too. Delay those attacks lol. Attack top, wait a second, then attack on either side so the opponent thinks you won't follow up.

HazelrahFirefly
05-07-2018, 06:53 PM
I see myself getting hit by the side lights that come out at 400ms, delayed too. Delay those attacks lol. Attack top, wait a second, then attack on either side so the opponent thinks you won't follow up.

That's already a common strategy, especially with the Orochi. I very often hit a top heavy, wait a beat, then throw another. It catches a lot of folks in the middle of 'taking their turn.'

Sekiro...
06-01-2018, 06:25 AM
Going to say, this is more of a problem with Zerk than Orochi.... His rework will help though I think simply due to riptide slash rework, and youll have a much easier time keeping on the offensive without being as predictable as his offensive side is right now. Still dont think the fight will be in Orochis favor though.


nah, berserker will beat the new orochi, the counter attack method won't mean a thing when berserker can hyper armor trade in his favor and get his momentum going. Orochi can't take advantage of a whiff because of that armor, also berserker hits harder then orochi in general.

Its really ok for a fight game??
In RPG and MOBA game is natural you have a character that counter another character (and this keep going in a chain)

But in a fight game every character should be able to deafeat any character.

Its not only against orochi, zerker is too strong right now

Alustar.exe
06-01-2018, 08:38 AM
Its really ok for a fight game??
In RPG and MOBA game is natural you have a character that counter another character (and this keep going in a chain)

But in a fight game every character should be able to deafeat any character.

Its not only against orochi, zerker is too strong right now

If you are good enough, you can use any character as a counter.

Siegfried-Z
06-01-2018, 08:57 AM
Are we really talking about Orochi the new less skill Char of all the roaster ? XD
Just spam lights and u gonna be fine in most of case.. Stupid rework..

DrinkinMyStella
06-01-2018, 09:05 AM
its zerkers hyper armour, a good zerker will feint a lot and the only thing you can do is either block or try to parry.

KotoKuraken
06-01-2018, 09:46 PM
Are we really talking about Orochi the new less skill Char of all the roaster ? XD
Just spam lights and u gonna be fine in most of case.. Stupid rework..

This thread was created before Orochi got his rework, when he only had a 28% winrate against Berserker. I'm sure he has a higher winrate in that matchup by now, but it definitely won't be anything impressive since Berserker can still outtrade for more damage and can't be interrupted 99% of the time

Sekiro...
06-01-2018, 11:08 PM
This thread was created before Orochi got his rework, when he only had a 28% winrate against Berserker. I'm sure he has a higher winrate in that matchup by now, but it definitely won't be anything impressive since Berserker can still outtrade for more damage and can't be interrupted 99% of the time

exactly