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Cliff_001
05-03-2018, 06:27 PM
Who in their right mind would choose to rework pk and orochi over valk and warden? I thought ubi wanted to buff weak heroes first.

PepsiBeastin
05-03-2018, 06:31 PM
Who in their right mind would choose to rework pk and orochi over valk and warden? I thought ubi wanted to buff weak heroes first.

Orochi IS a weak hero, he's definitely a bit worse than Warden. PK on the other hand has been broken for a very long time, and I'm assuming that the rework will slow down her moves while still letting her keep something that makes her unique.

Cliff_001
05-03-2018, 06:45 PM
Besides disagreeing with you on orochi, we will have to suffer another 3 months of using horrible heroes? I don't think that's a good idea.

Kryltic
05-03-2018, 06:48 PM
You're already complaining about reworks? Don't forget they announced more balances but are revealing those next week.

Just because the Valk and Warden aren't getting big reworks doesn't mean they arent getting anything, they will likely get the Highlander rebalance type thing.

Vakris_One
05-03-2018, 07:04 PM
Orochi IS a weak hero, he's definitely a bit worse than Warden. PK on the other hand has been broken for a very long time, and I'm assuming that the rework will slow down her moves while still letting her keep something that makes her unique.
You'd think that but instead they kept her speed the same and made PK a mixup artist, able to soft cancel into a 400ms top light bleed at any point from any heavy in her combos and even from her zone. And they also got rid of the stacking limit on her bleed so she can now keep stacking bleed on her opponent.

They only nerfed her damage.

PepsiBeastin
05-03-2018, 07:46 PM
You'd think that but instead they kept her speed the same and made PK a mixup artist, able to soft cancel into a 400ms top light bleed at any point from any heavy in her combos and even from her zone. And they also got rid of the stacking limit on her bleed so she can now keep stacking bleed on her opponent.

They only nerfed her damage.

I wasn't catch the stream but that honestly sounds even more cancerous than before. Is PK the only one that gets the infinite bleed? If so that is completely unfair to characters with bleed as main parts of their kit, like Nobushi and Shinobi. She's literally Shaman without pouncing now!

Vakris_One
05-03-2018, 07:57 PM
I wasn't catch the stream but that honestly sounds even more cancerous than before. Is PK the only one that gets the infinite bleed? If so that is completely unfair to characters with bleed as main parts of their kit, like Nobushi and Shinobi. She's literally Shaman without pouncing now!
They didn't go in-depth into exactly how much she can stack her bleed but they did say that she will be able to seriously stack on the bleed effect with subsequent bleeds unlike before where she reaches the stacking limit and from that point on her incentive is to pull back and not attack. They said they wanted to encourage PK to press the attack after landing a bleed rather than pull back until the bleed effect on her opponent is gone.

Essentially they have given her the option to keep her opponent in perma-bleed even if there is still an upper limit to her bleed stacking. Unless I am mistaken it ultimately means she won't reach the bleed stack limit after 2-3 hits like now, instead she will reach the bleed stack limit after 4-5 hits. So essentially she will be able to pour on more bleed damage than before but just short of it being limitless. She will definitely be the ideal partner to a Shaman after her rework.

CandleInTheDark
05-03-2018, 08:00 PM
They didn't go in-depth into exactly how much she can stack her bleed but they did say that she will be able to seriously stack on the bleed effect with subsequent bleeds unlike before where she reaches the stacking limit and from that point on her incentive is to pull back and not attack. They said they wanted to encourage PK to press the attack after landing a bleed rather than pull back until the bleed effect on her opponent is gone.

Essentially they have given her the option to keep her opponent in perma-bleed even if there is still an upper limit to her bleed stacking. Unless I am mistaken it ultimately means she won't reach the bleed stack limit after 2-3 hits like now, instead she will reach the bleed stack limit after 4-5 hits. So essentially she will be able to pour on more bleed damage than before but just short of it being limitless. She will definitely be the ideal partner to a Shaman after her rework.

At the same time I would imagine it would take more to reach the bleed cap given deep gouge was nerfed and dagger cancel was never that high, the worry I would have is her gb triple stab.

Honestly I am kind of disappointed overall, I think this will possibly change high tier play but 95% tier we are still likely going to see light spam, just having it take longer to kill.

Vakris_One
05-03-2018, 08:05 PM
Who in their right mind would choose to rework pk and orochi over valk and warden? I thought ubi wanted to buff weak heroes first.
PK did need a rework to tone her down while also giving her something else to use instead of just zone select. Orochi is definitely a weak hero and needed a rework. In both cases though I'm personally not sure the devs have given them appropriate reworks but we shall only truly see when we get to play them.

Valk and Warden can both be addressed by a balance pass akin to the one Highlander and Zerker got with Season 5. Valk and Warden aren't un-salvageable unless they get a rework, they can do very well by them even just with a re-tweaking of their stuff. We shall have to see, they haven't yet said anything about their tweaks on those two and I am sure they will be tweaked. Today was just about the characters with full on reworks is all. I would expect Valk, Warden and Shugo to be getting balance passes.

Vakris_One
05-03-2018, 08:11 PM
At the same time I would imagine it would take more to reach the bleed cap given deep gouge was nerfed and dagger cancel was never that high, the worry I would have is her gb triple stab.

Honestly I am kind of disappointed overall, I think this will possibly change high tier play but 95% tier we are still likely going to see light spam, just having it take longer to kill.
The nerf to her damage only really means she will take longer to kill her opponent. She is still very much one of the most capable characters of just using light and zone spam the whole match. Now she will have the potential to play more mind games from all the soft feint cancels they gave her. It feels like she will stay exactly the same at high tier while becoming a bit more frustrating to fight at the average level of play. Honestly I don't see much point in her rework since it will change nothing at the highest level of play while making her that much more frustrating for the general player base.

We have to wait and see of course but that's my initial gut feeling on her.

Knight_Raime
05-03-2018, 08:35 PM
PK changes are interesting. The damage nerf I saw coming because her damage profile is probably the worst offender in the game next to shinobi. The ability to actually functionally use her cancels with finishers is ****ing fantastic and it's the one buff she needed above all else. Bleed change I also saw coming. For those un aware PK had 2 "different" bleeds. and this meant that some bleed attacks stacked but others didn't. Which is one of the reasons why dagger cancel wasn't really used. I'm assuming the changes mean all bleeds stacks now. I don't think this really buffs her too much since her bleed damage is pretty minimal and doesn't give her any other effect. really it's just a quality of life change. The dagger cancel being locked to top is what caught my interest though. It's a neat little mix up that I personally didn't think of. I'm glad they didn't go the full shaman route though. we don't need to have 2 heros behaving the same like that.

They said there was more balancing in the notes. Hopefully it's something that addresses her zone option select. Though I doubt it. That's the main reason why she's the best duelist in the game. And until they've effectively nerfed that she's going to remain there. So. Overall there was two good buffs, one qol change, and one okay nerf. I am drooling at the potential fire the forums will be once she goes live. if people went rabid of centurions minor buff people will explode literally over the new and improved pk.

Orochi wise...hmm. Sounds like you can change the input of the attack so your guard direction doesn't matter. Interesting. Slightly different speeds is 100% the shaman effect she has on her jumping heavies. that's real interesting. Top being undodgable...unsure how this will be helpful. Roll will likely get you away from it still. and they already nerfed back dash. So unless the top has insane side tracking not sure how this really helps. Removal of the soft feint is weird but it's whatever. Wasn't super useful to begin with. it counting as the first hit in a chain is good though. If only the buffered issue was fixed (work faster on that ubi :P)

Riptide turned into a faster attack that is a light makes sense. It hitting for 40 damage is probably the main reason it was made into a light. Not sure what they mean by "interupt action on dodge." Making it faster I suppose addresses the issue of it being a poor dodge when you back step on the animation. Though if it's got the same recovery as it currently does it's largely going to be useless as the quicker animation means it would be easier to react GB the persons whiffed riptide. "it has the benefit of protecting storm rush..." what?

Faster attacks. Saw that coming. wasn't really what I wanted. but it works I guess. and both him and pk getting the ability to dodge out of finishers is nice. Hopefully this is extended to all assassins who don't have it. gives them more of the agile feel they should have.

I'm surprised valk wasn't mentioned since I believe she was mentioned a dev stream or 2 ago when talking about reworks and roman got hushed. Maybe they didn't want to spoil everything. Or maybe shes just receiving qol tweaks like highlander and bushi got. They did mention there was other balancing in the notes...

CandleInTheDark
05-03-2018, 08:39 PM
The nerf to her damage only really means she will take longer to kill her opponent. She is still very much one of the most capable characters of just using light and zone spam the whole match. Now she will have the potential to play more mind games from all the soft feint cancels they gave her. It feels like she will stay exactly the same at high tier while becoming a bit more frustrating to fight at the average level of play. Honestly I don't see much point in her rework since it will change nothing at the highest level of play while making her that much more frustrating for the general player base.

We have to wait and see of course but that's my initial gut feeling on her.

Yeah honestly I was hoping for something that takes down the spam, but I don't see her as being any more interesting to play. Right now there are a bunch of other characters I would rather play starting from a blank slate as I am on PC, Highlander has long been on my to-do list, I still like Valk and I never finished repping up berserker, all of those and probably kensei and nobushi would come before I do anything with peacekeeper.

Veerdin-Wraith
05-03-2018, 08:39 PM
Warden definitely needs a rework, because that class is as dull as dishwater, and has been since launch. But sadly, because they're "balanced" even though they're horridly boring, they won't be prioritized. We'll probably see a Valk and Shugoki rework before we see Warden get any love.

Knight_Raime
05-03-2018, 08:47 PM
Warden definitely needs a rework, because that class is as dull as dishwater, and has been since launch. But sadly, because they're "balanced" even though they're horridly boring, they won't be prioritized. We'll probably see a Valk and Shugoki rework before we see Warden get any love.

Unless the developers have stated otherwise Warden is going to get updated. So is the rest of the OG cast. their goal when they started with reworks was to rework or update the OG roster to be more in line power wise with the dlc heros. So just because warden was not mentioned for a season 6 rework doesn't mean he won't be. Especially since they did confirm they're still working on other reworks.

PK being fixed next makes sense considering she's been a problem child since launch despite the numerous changes she's received. The one change that matters though is if they found a way to nerf her option select with zone. Which means we will have to wait for patch notes next week to see if they addressed it or not. Orochi is the second most popular hero next to warden. Hence his rework.

Veerdin-Wraith
05-03-2018, 08:49 PM
Unless the developers have stated otherwise Warden is going to get updated. So is the rest of the OG cast. their goal when they started with reworks was to rework or update the OG roster to be more in line power wise with the dlc heros. So just because warden was not mentioned for a season 6 rework doesn't mean he won't be. Especially since they did confirm they're still working on other reworks.

PK being fixed next makes sense considering she's been a problem child since launch despite the numerous changes she's received. The one change that matters though is if they found a way to nerf her option select with zone. Which means we will have to wait for patch notes next week to see if they addressed it or not. Orochi is the second most popular hero next to warden. Hence his rework.

Oh, I'm sure Warden will get a rework... Eventually. It probably just won't be any time soon, because stat-wise, they're fairly well balanced, even though they're boring as hell.

Archaelion
05-03-2018, 09:13 PM
Two words: shoulder bash.

EvoX.
05-03-2018, 09:46 PM
Confused about what? Orochi is worse than both Warden and Valkyrie, top lights and zone can carry you less far than SB spam and what an experienced Valk can do.

And PK... she just got a nerf masked as a buff. A 500ms soft feint which always comes out from top, in exchange for massive amounts of damage lost? Sound like a bad deal.

Knight_Raime
05-03-2018, 10:25 PM
Confused about what? Orochi is worse than both Warden and Valkyrie, top lights and zone can carry you less far than SB spam and what an experienced Valk can do.

And PK... she just got a nerf masked as a buff. A 500ms soft feint which always comes out from top, in exchange for massive amounts of damage lost? Sound like a bad deal.

Well she also got the ability to soft feint into GB with heavy finishers now. and also the ability to dodge out of finishers. Considering she's got one of the better side dodge attacks and GB will be more accessible I think those make up for her punishments being dropped down damage wise. Early talks with some pros seems like her position in S tier will either stay or she'll drop to A tier. Personally I wouldn't remove her from S tier till her zone option select is gone. But that's just me.