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minb
09-10-2007, 07:17 AM
AI has been bashed countless times and rightly so. They are omnipotent and snipers. The sniping thing can be excused since this makes up for their lack of sense. The omnipotent AI is also a turn-off since you cannot use the element of surprise in this game the way real pilots did (hiding in the clouds, sun,...). But this also makes up for the fact that they are not very smart.

But I do hate them having supreme engine management skills. I do not use manual engine management since I am not that good (I have also read from some interviews of real WW2 VVS pilots that they didn't bother too much with prop pitch either) so I am at a terrible disadvantage here.

Does anybody know of any cheats here (hey if they cheat why not we)? Probably not, eh? I guess I better start practicing.

minb
09-10-2007, 07:17 AM
AI has been bashed countless times and rightly so. They are omnipotent and snipers. The sniping thing can be excused since this makes up for their lack of sense. The omnipotent AI is also a turn-off since you cannot use the element of surprise in this game the way real pilots did (hiding in the clouds, sun,...). But this also makes up for the fact that they are not very smart.

But I do hate them having supreme engine management skills. I do not use manual engine management since I am not that good (I have also read from some interviews of real WW2 VVS pilots that they didn't bother too much with prop pitch either) so I am at a terrible disadvantage here.

Does anybody know of any cheats here (hey if they cheat why not we)? Probably not, eh? I guess I better start practicing.

PBNA-Boosher
09-10-2007, 08:24 AM
There are NO cheats in this game. Learn to fly, shoot, manage your energy, and judge situations accordingly before going into combat.

If you find yourself dogfighting you've already made a mistake.

Feathered_IV
09-10-2007, 08:35 AM
Whenever I climb past 3k and go to 2nd stage of the supercharger, my AI flight always fall behind and can not keep up. Uberness seems selective.

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2007, 09:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by minb:
AI has been bashed countless times and rightly so. They are omnipotent and snipers. The sniping thing can be excused since this makes up for their lack of sense. The omnipotent AI is also a turn-off since you cannot use the element of surprise in this game the way real pilots did (hiding in the clouds, sun,...). But this also makes up for the fact that they are not very smart.

But I do hate them having supreme engine management skills. I do not use manual engine management since I am not that good (I have also read from some interviews of real WW2 VVS pilots that they didn't bother too much with prop pitch either) so I am at a terrible disadvantage here.

Does anybody know of any cheats here (hey if they cheat why not we)? Probably not, eh? I guess I better start practicing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

turn off engine overheat, and blackout/redout. They aren't cheats, but they are difficulty options

Bremspropeller
09-10-2007, 10:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But I do hate them having supreme engine management skills. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Regard CEM as an equation with lots of perimeters.

As AI is computer-controlled, they can put in X, Y and Z to get out the most performance possible.
That's not exactly cheating. I'd call it uber-geekness.

RxMan
09-10-2007, 10:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Regard CEM as an equation with lots of perimeters.
As AI is computer-controlled, they can put in X, Y and Z to get out the most performance possible.
That's not exactly cheating. I'd call it uber-geekness. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


After all this AI designed these planes, they KNOW engine management. It has been said from the most authoritative source, that the AI uses the same FM (when using a human flyable plane) as us, I have seen enough to believe it.

buzzsaw1939
09-10-2007, 11:03 AM
Oh great!...Now I have to clean all this coffee off my key board and controls. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

M_Gunz
09-10-2007, 11:37 AM
Uhhhh let's see... REAL pilots most of the time were trained for months and
most GAMERS just blow off any learning that doesn't involve fighting.

It's easy enough to tell the players with enough time just flying by reading threads like this!

And I've never heard in IRL of a good pilot being called a Geek, esp not a fighter pilot.

flox
09-10-2007, 11:45 AM
I think you guys are picking apart his words too much. We all know he has a point. It's well established that the AI can do things we can't because they don't black/red out, their engines don't overheat, etc. You all know what minb is getting at. Maybe it's not "cheating" per se, but the playing field sure as hell isn't level in some ways.

RxMan, what source would that be? I don't believe it. Have you ever turned on autopilot and watched the things AI can make your plane do? I recall one occasion in particular where I let the AI engage enemy planes by diving straight down about 3000m, zooming up to over 750kph no problem (This was in an early P-39). The second I turned autopilot off, I lost half my control surfaces before I even put my hand on the stick.

It has been established that the AI can climb and dive better than we can too. Just try to take on an AI fighter using a ride in which you should have the advantage in the vertical (P-38 vs a6m5, for example). I'm not saying it's impossible to beat the AI in such a matchup (I've seen it done before), but it's much more difficult than it should be.

MEGILE
09-10-2007, 11:46 AM
Where can I download these cheetz?

DuxCorvan
09-10-2007, 11:47 AM
BTW, the word he meant to use is 'omniscient'. If AI were 'omnipotent' they would destroy us with a wink and talk Moses through a burning bush.

As if they didn't cheat enough.

SeaFireLIV
09-10-2007, 12:00 PM
AI has to cheat. Do any of you honestly believe that each AI in IL2 has to be able to fly and engage in combat using the equivalent of the most complex organism in the universe - the Human brain?

reality check:

Scientists just recently built a true AI computer that fills a large room.. It has the AI equivalent of half a mouse brain.



But AI does what it does pretty well and Oleg did say that while AI don`t black or red out, they`ll never make manouevers that would cause them to do that. And it`s VERY beatable!

SeaVee
09-10-2007, 12:31 PM
I think when most posts like these are made, its not that the person thinks the AI cheat per se, but rather that its not realistic that every single AI adversary should be able to perform at absolutely optimum levels 100% of the time.

In 'RL' there would be a cross-hatch of pilot experience levels in a given engagement. IOW, not every single adversary one faced would be an uber-pilot. There would be rookies and aces and everything in between.

Rather than characterizing the way AI in IL2 operates as 'cheating', I think its more correct to just recognize and accept that they are all basically set to super-skilled levels.

This whole topic is just beating a long-dead horse....

SlickStick
09-10-2007, 12:40 PM
The quote about the AI using the exact same flight models as the flyable planes was by Oleg himself in one of his interviews, I believe on Sim -HQ. He also went on to explain that indeed the AI is better at managing their engines and the error usually lies within the human pilot not performing the same as AI.

The AI suffers from the same difficulty settings as human pilots, it's just that they do not put themselves into blackout situations and control their engine management with computer precision.

That being said, the AI is very beatable in the sense that given an EXACT action by a human, the AI will react EXACTLY the same way everytime. If you develop a scenario to beat a Quick Mission, the same methods will work EVERYTIME, as the AI will react EXACTLY the same way, everytime.

This has been my experience with the AI, which is why when I'm practicing offline, I always generate a random Quick Mission and always fly different planes against different planes, instead of the same QM over and over.

lowfighter
09-10-2007, 01:01 PM
Well just turn on autopilot when entering combat and look at the gauges. They just fly at 100% power plus WEP all the time during combat. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
It's pretty strange some of you never tried this and yet keep talking about the AI which manages perfectly his engine. What's up?

SlickStick
09-10-2007, 01:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lowfighter:
Well just turn on autopilot when entering combat and look at the gauges. They just fly at 100% power plus WEP all the time during combat. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
It's pretty strange some of you never tried this and yet keep talking about the AI which manages perfectly his engine. What's up? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Considering that many gauges do not work correctly in this sim for human pilots, I'm not sure what you are graphically seeing is actually what is happening in the code.

If what you are alluding to is correct, then what is happening with the temp gauges at the same time? Are you saying that if you switch on auto pilot for a human flyable plane that the computer runs everything maxed all the time with no overheat?

lowfighter
09-10-2007, 01:29 PM
The temperature gauges freeze when you turn autopilot. If just before entering combat you got the overheat message and then turn autopilot on he'll be still merrily fly at maximum power. The rpm and mp gauges show on autopilot just what a human will see if he goes himself 100%+wep.
Got to go. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lowfighter:
Well just turn on autopilot when entering combat and look at the gauges. They just fly at 100% power plus WEP all the time during combat. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
It's pretty strange some of you never tried this and yet keep talking about the AI which manages perfectly his engine. What's up? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Considering that many gauges do not work correctly in this sim for human pilots, I'm not sure what you are graphically seeing is actually what is happening in the code.

If what you are alluding to is correct, then what is happening with the temp gauges at the same time? Are you saying that if you switch on auto pilot for a human flyable plane that the computer runs everything maxed all the time with no overheat? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

SlickStick
09-10-2007, 01:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lowfighter:
The temperature gauges freeze when you turn autopilot. If just before entering combat you got the overheat message and then turn autopilot on he'll be still merrily fly at maximum power. The rpm and mp gauges show on autopilot just what a human will see if he goes himself 100%+wep.
Got to go. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lowfighter:
Well just turn on autopilot when entering combat and look at the gauges. They just fly at 100% power plus WEP all the time during combat. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
It's pretty strange some of you never tried this and yet keep talking about the AI which manages perfectly his engine. What's up? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Considering that many gauges do not work correctly in this sim for human pilots, I'm not sure what you are graphically seeing is actually what is happening in the code.

If what you are alluding to is correct, then what is happening with the temp gauges at the same time? Are you saying that if you switch on auto pilot for a human flyable plane that the computer runs everything maxed all the time with no overheat? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

However, you're talking AI taking over a human controlled plane offline, not just AI in AI planes. You cannot see the gauges of the AI planes.

As I was only passing on what Oleg stated (verbatim) about the AI plane's performance, it is highly possible that when you select auto pilot of a human controlled plane offline, what you stated happens. I rarely spend anytime flying offline, other than to test planes after a patch or to see how one plane performs against another in QMBs.

VMF-214_HaVoK
09-10-2007, 02:02 PM
AI is not cheating you bud. They just know how to do everything correctly and efficiently, such as CEM and trim. Many of us can go up against several ACE AI at a time and come out victorious so the problem lies more with you and not the sim. AI certainly have some issues but in the your case its simply not one of them. Im only offering some advice and not attempting to offend you in any way. You just have to learn proper tactics and practice more. As you last sentence sums it up pretty well.

S!

VMF-214_HaVoK
09-10-2007, 02:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lowfighter:
Well just turn on autopilot when entering combat and look at the gauges. They just fly at 100% power plus WEP all the time during combat. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
It's pretty strange some of you never tried this and yet keep talking about the AI which manages perfectly his engine. What's up? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tried it and did not find it to be correct.

S!

DKoor
09-10-2007, 02:09 PM
The best part of this thread is............people are still unsure whether Ai cheats or not.
Or even worse thinking how they fly at maximum, seeing their flying as ideal etc.

I have a feeling that I've seen/taken part in at least 10 threads where I or other people systematically proved in which way Ai exactly cheats.
It goes beyond just complex engine management.

My fav Ai cheat de-bunking track was when Bf-109 prop achieved some-kind of uber-sonic speed after I set pp to 100% and engage autopilot in really high speed dive.

You may wanna to try that out sometimes.

buddye1
09-10-2007, 03:05 PM
I work on the BOBII AI. The AI is just a software program with a specific design and design objectives.

I do not know why someone would say the AI "cheats". The AI can have bugs where the design objectives are not being met but it is just for flame effect to say the AI cheats.

DuxCorvan
09-10-2007, 04:29 PM
When we say 'cheats', we mean AI has not some of the limitations human players have.

That's normal and even desirable, in order to have a challenging AI opponent.

The problem is when it's "in your face". I mean, when the exploits and off-limits things AI can do before your eyes are so evident and notorious that you lose immersion and... how to say it... you can't do the 'leap of faith' necessary to get yourself into the fiction. For example, being unable to bounce on surprised enemies, or having structurally fragile planes doing maneuvers that would clearly break apart the sturdiest aircraft. Among many other things.

Viper2005_
09-10-2007, 06:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
BTW, the word he meant to use is 'omniscient'. If AI were 'omnipotent' they would destroy us with a wink and talk Moses through a burning bush.

As if they didn't cheat enough. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The development of such an advanced AI is technically demanding in the extreme. Why do you think 4.09 is taking such a long time?

SeaFireLIV
09-10-2007, 06:35 PM
Sorry, DuxCorvan, but i`ve said before that you`re actually wrong on some of these points. I`ve actually caught AI aircraft by surprise sometimes.

Catching some enemy AI aircraft is difficult and impossible if you`re in an I16 chasing a running 109 (realistic), but generally, with good flying tactics and using an equal number of wingmen, it`s not at all unimmersive dogfighting an AI fighter squad. You may win, or run home, depending on situation and skill.

You may have a point about Zero wings , unfortunately I haven`t flown the Pacific enough to test, but I remember flying on the Soviet front and seeing two early AI laggs chase 2 AI 110s down fast. The laggs wings snapped off and they hit the ground while the 110s flew on. Not seen that again for a while since...

Perhaps it`s not the AI, but the structural design of the zero`s aircraft that need work?

lowfighter
09-10-2007, 11:10 PM
So HaVoK what did you see?


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lowfighter:
Well just turn on autopilot when entering combat and look at the gauges. They just fly at 100% power plus WEP all the time during combat. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
It's pretty strange some of you never tried this and yet keep talking about the AI which manages perfectly his engine. What's up? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tried it and did not find it to be correct.

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Billy_DeLyon
09-11-2007, 12:24 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Catching some enemy AI aircraft is difficult and impossible if you`re in an I16 chasing a running 109 (realistic), but generally, with good flying tactics and using an equal number of wingmen, it`s not at all unimmersive dogfighting an AI fighter squad. You may win, or run home, depending on situation and skill.[QUOTE]

This is one way I've found to have fun with the AI, set up battle involving lots of aircraft and I guess what happens is that the AI react to all the other planes around, not just yours, and so become less predictable than in more of a 1v1 / iso situation.

I do wish that they were less omniscient, though. It would be nice if in BOB they model the AI so that they aren't so aware of a/c in the sun or in their blind spot. It's not that I want them to be easier kills... it's just kind of an immersion-killer when you know that they will take evasive action the instant you get within 300m.

minb
09-11-2007, 12:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">turn off engine overheat, and blackout/redout. They aren't cheats, but they are difficulty options </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, that seems about right

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> That's not exactly cheating. I'd call it uber-geekness. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe, spot on.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> BTW, the word he meant to use is 'omniscient'. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, sorry for my broken english.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Rather than characterizing the way AI in IL2 operates as 'cheating', I think its more correct to just recognize and accept that they are all basically set to super-skilled levels. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly my point. All the AI are super skilled. Some are super-super-skilled. And some are insanely skilled.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Scientists just recently built a true AI computer that fills a large room.. It has the AI equivalent of half a mouse brain. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Come on, it doesn't need to go that far. At least some randomness should be introduced. Just look at the AI in Battle of Britain 2. They seem to be more realistic than the ones here. I play both sims, I basicaly have a love hate relationship with both of them. I love the polish and the feel of the planes and the detail in Il2, but I hate the AI, the fake tracers and the terrain from high up. On the other hand I love AI, the terrain from high up, the tracers (new ones) and the immersion in BoB2, but I hate the bugs and the damage model (or the lack of).

I hope Oleg fixes the AI in SoW, otherwise I won't be buying it. AI shouldn't manage the plane perfectly, since real pilots often didn't (I did mention that interview right?). And the training wasn't sufficient according to the guys that flew there. Also they didn't have their planes customised and flew many different types so I doubt they would have familiarised themselves with the planes to become "one" with them the way the AI does in Il2.

Anyway, this topic isn't really going anywhare, but thanks for your imput anyway (I was considering using the no engine overheat option, but I didn't consider the no blackout/redout... to much of an immersion killer for me).

Thanks

PS: I guess the AI thing wouldn't be an issue if there weren't such contrasts in the AI behavour. In some aspects they perform too good (engine management, sniping) in other extremely poor (stubbornly flying straight and level and me on his six). So the huge difference between these two realy puts things into focus. Otherwise the AI isn't all that bad. But it is quite old (coming from the original Sturmovik with only a few adjustments) and it shows.

VMF-214_HaVoK
09-11-2007, 12:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I hope Oleg fixes the AI in SoW, otherwise I won't be buying it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, sure, I love when people make this claim because I know its not true. I bet anything you get a copy as soon as it hits the shelves and your not going to wait around to hear reviews on the AI. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

minb
09-11-2007, 12:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Sure, sure, I love when people make this claim because I know its not true. I bet anything you get a copy as soon as it hits the shelves and your not going to wait around to hear reviews on the AI. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If he fixes the thing I will buy it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif
I didn't say I wont be playing it if it isn't fixed. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

DKoor
09-11-2007, 02:06 AM
SoW will probably have an improved Ai over IL-2 one. I fail to see why not, since it's a new game and they didn't exactly developed it for one year....they had the time all right to make some improvements.

What I would like to see personally regarding Ai, is that Ai gets cured from some deficiencies such are seeing in clouds, always detecting human player on their 6 (only when you approach on very high speed they sometimes do not react), having nav lights on in night battles etc.

And most importantly....to truly have FM and DM same as human player and that will enable us to employ real life tactics more than ever.

DKoor
09-11-2007, 02:15 AM
I uploaded some tracks with Ai testings (again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif), you may grab 'em here:

http://www.speedyshare.com/647282775.html

lowfighter
09-11-2007, 02:25 AM
My biggest wish for AI is exactly that. But it's a problem of artificial inteligence, and it's generally a tough one to create ai which act smartly. And it might be also a problem of too many PC resources involved. So even in il2 developers had to find a compromise such that game runs well on average computers. No need to think that Oleg wants the player to be at a disadvantage against the ai, lol. Just a matter of programming (and INTELIGENT behaviour of the AI is probably the toughest programming problem anyway) , PC resources needed etc.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
that Ai gets cured from some deficiencies such are seeing in clouds, always detecting human player on their 6 (only when you approach on very high speed they sometimes do not react). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agt_Homer
09-11-2007, 02:28 AM
Let me ask a question.

I was doing an experiment where I entered the a death dive straight at the ground with the P-38 testing its special disability. After a certain speed I found it impossible to pull up (which is good and realistic) But if I triggered the autopilot it pulled out of it like nothing, seeming to defying the laws of physics. Is the AI in the enemy planes similar?

DKoor
09-11-2007, 02:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Agt_Homer:
Let me ask a question.

I was doing an experiment where I entered the a death dive straight at the ground with the P-38 testing its special disability. After a certain speed I found it impossible to pull up (which is good and realistic) But if I triggered the autopilot it pulled out of it like nothing, seeming to defying the laws of physics. Is the AI in the enemy planes similar? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Can't say 100% yes or no......there was a dilemma on these boards about that.

Somewhat major opinion was yes, that they probably are the same but, no one, except those who made it, can't say for sure.

P-38 likely entered terminal dive, spot from which there's probably no return but the Ai managed to get out of that situation.
Well spotted mate.

Ai occasionally knows to lower the flaps into take off position at high speeds (500km/h or so) in order to reduce speed or turn better and when I take over the plane they jam instantly, I don't even have the time to react.
That happened a lot to me in the past.

DKoor
09-11-2007, 02:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lowfighter:
My biggest wish for AI is exactly that. But it's a problem of artificial inteligence, and it's generally a tough one to create ai which act smartly. And it might be also a problem of too many PC resources involved. So even in il2 developers had to find a compromise such that game runs well on average computers. No need to think that Oleg wants the player to be at a disadvantage against the ai, lol. Just a matter of programming (and INTELIGENT behaviour of the AI is probably the toughest programming problem anyway) , PC resources needed etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes I also agree to your views regarding PC specs & resources....I think the closest thing we can get at this moment is Ai with more pre-programmed routines than it's IL-2 brother which is also more than fine to me.

That will refresh our offline experience big time and maybe even SoW Ai could teach us a few nice new mojo moves http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

M_Gunz
09-11-2007, 12:17 PM
100% plus WEP. I thought that WEP did not engage until OVER 100% throttle?
You know, hit the key before 100% but it engages only at over 100%.

Of course if in a highspeed dive that AI has control what happens when you switch to human
pilot and suddenly trim is changed to where human had last, stick is ?centered?, the controls
are suddenly different than what AI was using and the plane breaks up proves just What?

The best tactical AI I've seen all flew with simplified FM's. It is then easier to have
tactics and fit the maneuvers, the possible is known ahead of time where the AI will go.
Tabled FM's can be small and never exceed limits though the handling which player does not
experience will be unreal and some small things will not happen as real but AI will not be
loads of resources just to fly at all let alone fly formation, etc. So I am all for AI
having simple FM in exchange for sharp combat ability. Also note that such an AI could be
scaled as to pilot ability what turns, etc, each level of AI pilot is capable of and how
well they will fly it.

horseback
09-11-2007, 12:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I hope Oleg fixes the AI in SoW, otherwise I won't be buying it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, sure, I love when people make this claim because I know its not true. I bet anything you get a copy as soon as it hits the shelves and your not going to wait around to hear reviews on the AI. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Say what you will, HaVoK, but some of us offliners learned our lesson with the release of Forgotten Battles. The AI were unforgivably bad, IMO, and it was a good year and three or four patch versions before I was able to move from the original Il-2 Sturmovik to the one with all the eye candy.

I could have saved twenty bucks by waiting, spent the money on the last of the recently discontinued MicroSoft Force Feedback 2 joysticks instead, and had a lot more fun and a lot less frustration.

If the AI aren't substantially better in SoW, a lot of what was possible in real life will be impossible for the offline players, and the frustration quotient will alienate a LOT of people.

cheers

horseback

VMF-214_HaVoK
09-11-2007, 01:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Say what you will, HaVoK, but some of us offliners learned our lesson with the release of Forgotten Battles. The AI were unforgivably bad, IMO, and it was a good year and three or four patch versions before I was able to move from the original Il-2 Sturmovik to the one with all the eye candy.

I could have saved twenty bucks by waiting, spent the money on the last of the recently discontinued MicroSoft Force Feedback 2 joysticks instead, and had a lot more fun and a lot less frustration. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I still think you all will buy it the day it ships. Im keeping a list. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif BTW I have an extra Sidewinder Precision II if your interested. Its not FFB but other then that its the same.

S!

DKoor
09-11-2007, 01:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
I still think you all will buy it the day it ships. Im keeping a list. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif BTW I have an extra Sidewinder Precision II if your interested. Its not FFB but other then that its the same.

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I admit I'll buy it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

ASAP of course.
Can't speak for others, tho http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

buddye1
09-11-2007, 01:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
When we say 'cheats', we mean AI has not some of the limitations human players have.

That's normal and even desirable, in order to have a challenging AI opponent.

The problem is when it's "in your face". I mean, when the exploits and off-limits things AI can do before your eyes are so evident and notorious that you lose immersion and... how to say it... you can't do the 'leap of faith' necessary to get yourself into the fiction. For example, being unable to bounce on surprised enemies, or having structurally fragile planes doing maneuvers that would clearly break apart the sturdiest aircraft. Among many other things. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you are saying that the AI should have the following design objective:

Player capabilities/limitations = AI capabilities/limitations (no exceptions)

This is a reasonable design objective IMHO but the AI would still be able to do it faster and maybe more effectively than the player.

Does anyone know if this was the developer's design objective?

knightflyte
09-11-2007, 01:27 PM
I'll buy it sight unseen. I've received too much enjoyment despite the shortcomings of IL2 to not support Oleg et al.

I WILL be critical of the AI and how I'm able to employ tactics that are realistic, instead of it turning into a chase with over spinning, no red out black out, negative g induced aerobatics, and zoom rocket capabilities.

This pi$$es me off: You're chasing a foe. You've fired rounds. Some hit some don't. He spins, rolls, neg g manuevers to avoid your fire. Okay fine. BUT run out of ammo and he stops moving around like a squirrel on an overdose of cappacino. I can catch him and be ten meters from his craft and no avoidance moves if I'm out of ammo.

DuxCorvan
09-11-2007, 02:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buddye1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
When we say 'cheats', we mean AI has not some of the limitations human players have.

That's normal and even desirable, in order to have a challenging AI opponent.

The problem is when it's "in your face". I mean, when the exploits and off-limits things AI can do before your eyes are so evident and notorious that you lose immersion and... how to say it... you can't do the 'leap of faith' necessary to get yourself into the fiction. For example, being unable to bounce on surprised enemies, or having structurally fragile planes doing maneuvers that would clearly break apart the sturdiest aircraft. Among many other things. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you are saying that the AI should have the following design objective:

Player capabilities/limitations = AI capabilities/limitations (no exceptions)
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

NO.

I'm not saying that. You have not read the post, or if you did, you tried to read "between lines". I don't write "between lines", so don't try that.

I'm saying that the exceptions for AI can be made subtler, so they have better chances of survival without acting like they don't give a cr*p because they can't break, black-out or flat spin.

For example, having AI pilots pulling out before getting maximum 'break' dive speed, or trying not to exceed 7 G's in a turn, or whatever.

AI has to "cheat". I think we all agree. But it doesn't have to act like fekkin' UFO's.

BTW:

@SeaFire: Those Laggs breaking behind the 110s... are you sure it was because of the dive, or maybe they were being damaged -or had been previously damaged- by the uber-rear-gunners in the 110s? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Because I've never seen AI breaking in mid-air if it had not been 'softened' before.

As for surprising, no, I don't think you really surprised them. It's only you took on them so fast once in their 'awareness range' they couldn't react on time. But they had 'smelled' you. I'm quite sure.

horseback
09-11-2007, 10:03 PM
1. HaVoK, I too, still have my old non-FFB USB Sidewinder Precision Pro 2 (and the CD that came with it). It's a good stick, but it lacks buttons and ergonomics compared to my CH CombatStick. My youngest has put it aside for the X52, which he thinks is 'cooler' (but now he can't hit anything).

If he gets the hang of the X52, I'll give it to a deserving member of this forum, even if it means paying overseas postage.

2. No, I won't be buying SoW until I can be sure that the grotesquely uber ai gunners have been toned down to a historically accurate level of inaccuracy. If I get so much as a whiff of a complaint about the Boulton Paul Defiant or the Me 110 being the toughest offline opponents, I'm staying with '46 'til it's clear that flying an RAF campaign on SoW won't inevitably result in my throwing my TrackIR visor at my screen...

3. The biggest AI 'cheat' is their hyper-SA; the ability to see you whereever you are, to perfectly gauge the moment just before they'll cross your pipper/convergence, and the perfect awareness of what you're doing when you should be in their blind spots. Honestly, since the 4.0x patches, it is impossible to surprise the ai UNLESS he's busy tracking another target, or being attacked by another aircraft.

The technical perfection of their flying is merely annoying (although that perfectly smooth gunnery platform is the secret weapon of the ai gunners). If you master your own ride, I mean truly master it, their abilities are approachable most of the time. Just don't try diving with them.

4. Dux has it right. The AI have to cheat to make the game playable, BUT they don't need to make it so obvious. That takes away any semblence of immersion or realism.

There's a fine line between making me work for my kills and robbing me of them.

cheers

horseback

lowfighter
09-11-2007, 10:28 PM
Horseback, I simply think the developers were not able to create better AIs, for whatever programming reason. Of course they know of the features which make the AI "unrealistic" and I bet they would love to have them corrected and have AIs which can beat the player by cleverness without being unrealistic. But probably the task is tremendously difficult. That's the big big issue, to make them clever. Whatever is uber with the AI's we have, we can beat them pretty easily because they are just not too smart and because they are predictable.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horseback:
4. Dux has it right. The AI have to cheat to make the game playable, BUT they don't need to make it so obvious. That takes away any semblence of immersion or realism.


cheers

horseback </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

SeaFireLIV
09-12-2007, 02:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DuxCorvan:


As for surprising, no, I don't think you really surprised them. It's only you took on them so fast once in their 'awareness range' they couldn't react on time. But they had 'smelled' you. I'm quite sure. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As for the wings break I only saw it once in an earlier patched FB. they hadn`t been shot at previously. I wonder if Oleg changed it for later?

But as for catching the 109s by surprise I assure you it can and does happen. I`ve flown right up behind them with no reaction until I started opening fire.

I assure you they hadn`t `smelled` me at all. Try for once to believe me rather than patronisingly trying to tell me what I `saw` happened. You`ve been wrong quite a lot on your complaints on AI, but a certain stubborness makes you refuse to admit it.

lowfighter
09-12-2007, 03:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DuxCorvan:


As for surprising, no, I don't think you really surprised them. It's only you took on them so fast once in their 'awareness range' they couldn't react on time. But they had 'smelled' you. I'm quite sure. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As for the wings break I only saw it once in an earlier patched FB. they hadn`t been shot at previously. I wonder if Oleg changed it for later?

But as for catching the 109s by surprise I assure you it can and does happen. I`ve flown right up behind them with no reaction until I started opening fire.

I assure you they hadn`t `smelled` me at all. Try for once to believe me rather than patronisingly trying to tell me what I `saw` happened. You`ve been wrong quite a lot on your complaints on AI, but a certain stubborness makes you refuse to admit it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I've seen the unawareness AI thing too somewhere above the 4.0 patch, even posted the mission in the FMB forum (it was reproductible, any time I run the mission a certain flight would just keep flying straight although there were lot of enemies within sight) to check if it happens to other people too, got no answer positive or negative. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

However I've seen it only twice I think and since not many people noticed it, it must be occuring very very rarely. About when did you see the thing?

SeaVee
09-12-2007, 07:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horseback:
1. HaVoK, I too, still have my old non-FFB USB Sidewinder Precision Pro 2 (and the CD that came with it). It's a good stick, but it lacks buttons and ergonomics compared to my CH CombatStick. My youngest has put it aside for the X52, which he thinks is 'cooler' (but now he can't hit anything).

If he gets the hang of the X52, I'll give it to a deserving member of this forum, even if it means paying overseas postage.

2. No, I won't be buying SoW until I can be sure that the grotesquely uber ai gunners have been toned down to a historically accurate level of inaccuracy. If I get so much as a whiff of a complaint about the Boulton Paul Defiant or the Me 110 being the toughest offline opponents, I'm staying with '46 'til it's clear that flying an RAF campaign on SoW won't inevitably result in my throwing my TrackIR visor at my screen...

3. The biggest AI 'cheat' is their hyper-SA; the ability to see you whereever you are, to perfectly gauge the moment just before they'll cross your pipper/convergence, and the perfect awareness of what you're doing when you should be in their blind spots. Honestly, since the 4.0x patches, it is impossible to surprise the ai UNLESS he's busy tracking another target, or being attacked by another aircraft.

The technical perfection of their flying is merely annoying (although that perfectly smooth gunnery platform is the secret weapon of the ai gunners). If you master your own ride, I mean truly master it, their abilities are approachable most of the time. Just don't try diving with them.

4. Dux has it right. The AI have to cheat to make the game playable, BUT they don't need to make it so obvious. That takes away any semblence of immersion or realism.

There's a fine line between making me work for my kills and robbing me of them.

cheers

horseback </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is one of the reasons why some of us like BoB2 so much. The things you mention have been mostly successfully achieved with the AI in BoB2. Obviously if Oleg wants to, he and his team have the technical skills and resources to resolve such issues with SoW. Key words being 'wants to'.

I am one of those who will buy SoW - sight unseen - simply because it will be impossible not to, no matter what faults it may or may not have. I do think it will be a superb sim and a vast improvement over '46, which warts and all is a fantastic sim/game.

I am however a bit skeptical about Oleg's willingness to invest the resources necessary to make the game shine as an OFFLINE game. If it is not a priority for him - and it seems not to be - since the past history and his own direct comments say otherwise then it may have similar flaws with respect to the offline experience as '46.

Now, when it comes to multiplayer I think SoW, just like '46 now will have no equal.