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XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 12:13 PM
i read a book from Helmut Lipfert, where he, in the contrary of all we can read here and there, usually ended the dogfights low and slow, turning with Russian fighters. To the surprise, he survived the war and shot down >200 enemies. The point is he was able to turnfight and win the battles flying the 109G series against Yaks, P39, LaGGs, Las etc. He says it was experience, flying skill and poor skill on the other side.

In the sim, everybody can fly at the edge of blackout almost forever, what is absolutely unrealistic. Doesnâ´t matter on the skill, just push the stick more and more and you outturn even more experienced enemy in worse turning plane. In reality, inexperienced pilot is afraid of turning too hard (and knowing the bad spin reputation of lets say P39 doesnâ´t encourage him) and the blackout is probably not so pleasant experience to enjoy it for too long.

Well, my idea is to decrease the blackout treshold (ehm, hope its the correct word), so the blackout occurs sooner.
?

-------------

"The picture repeats itself when operations, which began with great intent and local successes, degenerated into senseless, wild hammering at fixed front-line positions once they encounter initial heavy losses and unforeseen situations. This incomprehensible phenomenon appears again and again. But, even in extremis, the Russian is never logical; he falls back on his natural instinct, and the nature of the Russian is to use mass, steamroller tactics, and adherence to given objectives without regard to changing situations."

German 9th Army report after repulsing the Soviet offensive "Mars" in Rzhev bulge, December 1942.

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 12:13 PM
i read a book from Helmut Lipfert, where he, in the contrary of all we can read here and there, usually ended the dogfights low and slow, turning with Russian fighters. To the surprise, he survived the war and shot down >200 enemies. The point is he was able to turnfight and win the battles flying the 109G series against Yaks, P39, LaGGs, Las etc. He says it was experience, flying skill and poor skill on the other side.

In the sim, everybody can fly at the edge of blackout almost forever, what is absolutely unrealistic. Doesnâ´t matter on the skill, just push the stick more and more and you outturn even more experienced enemy in worse turning plane. In reality, inexperienced pilot is afraid of turning too hard (and knowing the bad spin reputation of lets say P39 doesnâ´t encourage him) and the blackout is probably not so pleasant experience to enjoy it for too long.

Well, my idea is to decrease the blackout treshold (ehm, hope its the correct word), so the blackout occurs sooner.
?

-------------

"The picture repeats itself when operations, which began with great intent and local successes, degenerated into senseless, wild hammering at fixed front-line positions once they encounter initial heavy losses and unforeseen situations. This incomprehensible phenomenon appears again and again. But, even in extremis, the Russian is never logical; he falls back on his natural instinct, and the nature of the Russian is to use mass, steamroller tactics, and adherence to given objectives without regard to changing situations."

German 9th Army report after repulsing the Soviet offensive "Mars" in Rzhev bulge, December 1942.

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 12:22 PM
I propose also a "format C:" macro after three stalls in the same online game to help some people to fly more cleverly /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Usually, repression is much more efficient than prevention /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 01:38 PM
Well, the topic of your post could mean many things to many people! I see you are mainly focusing on what Helmut Lipfert experienced in turn-fight air combat--looks like a good read.

Yes, I agree that there should be some cumulative effect in the sim of flying at some number of G's for a prolonged period. Restated, the threshold for blackout becomes lower with continuous high-G turns due to pilot fatigue. Similarly, after you hit blackout conditions once, it becomes easier to blackout a second, and a third time. Also, recovery time from this higher sensitivity to blackout should be measured after the turn fight is over. Some of these elements might already be in the sim: I just do not hit blackout conditions consecutively very often while flying my favorite attack aircraft.

Also, I think those flying using the external view should experience a full screen blackout when pulling too high G-forces. This effect was not represented in IL2 using external view. It might dissuade some from making too many "bat turns" in a row. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

--r

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XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 02:03 PM
I think blackout from continued turning was only a problem for few late war WWII planes. Blackouts mostly happend when pulling out of dives. (correct me if wrong)

I much bigger problem was the strength that was needed to pull the stick. When doing hard turns for more than one/two minutes, the pilot was exhausted and for some time unable to pull hard enough to get blackouts.

what I would like to see:
1. structural failure
2. exhausting from "working" (moving the stick around)
3. exhausting from contiued high g



quiet_man

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I'm quiet_man, but if I post I post quiet much /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 06:16 PM
I'm no programmer so maybe this is a dumb idea, but along the lines of this thread, what could work would be if the ratio between joystick and control surfaces changed in the program to simulate fatigue. ie, what starts out as 100% would slowly work its way down to 90% and 80% and so on so that after a while, pulling the stick all the way back (100%) might have the same effect as pulling it only halfway back (50%) had a first.
Make it each time you blackout or enter beyond a certain G level it reduces the inputs a certain %. Then have a timer that increases the %'s at a 'fatigue recovery' rate.

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XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 06:35 PM
Hi all,
I agree with the proposal, i think (as I already wrote in another thread) that this is a very very important feature sims (as far as i know) missed till now; probably is a key factor as well as aerodynamic characteristics of aircraft, since in real life and beyond given limits it's you (human) the bottle-neck in shakings and turning capabilities.
To my taste, if the sim would take care about this, will increase the realism (already wonderful) by at least 50%.

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 08:31 PM
Edited by Vengeanze.
Sorry guys. An imposter. Been dealt with.

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Message Edited on 07/17/0303:29PM by Vengeanze

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 08:33 PM
Invent a time machine and go back to 1941 Russia just before June, maybe April. Then you'll get full realism. If'n ya don't get killed in the Purges..... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 09:25 AM
Vengaenze wrote:
- Jurinko, you make me sick. Better find something
- else to do in your life !

Ha!! Another damned frightened turn-and-burner!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

-------------

"The picture repeats itself when operations, which began with great intent and local successes, degenerated into senseless, wild hammering at fixed front-line positions once they encounter initial heavy losses and unforeseen situations. This incomprehensible phenomenon appears again and again. But, even in extremis, the Russian is never logical; he falls back on his natural instinct, and the nature of the Russian is to use mass, steamroller tactics, and adherence to given objectives without regard to changing situations."

German 9th Army report after repulsing the Soviet offensive "Mars" in Rzhev bulge, December 1942.

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 11:04 AM
quiet_man wrote:
-
- I think blackout from continued turning was only a
- problem for few late war WWII planes. Blackouts
- mostly happend when pulling out of dives. (correct
- me if wrong)
-
- I much bigger problem was the strength that was
- needed to pull the stick. When doing hard turns for
- more than one/two minutes, the pilot was exhausted
- and for some time unable to pull hard enough to get
- blackouts.
-
- what I would like to see:
- 1. structural failure
- 2. exhausting from "working" (moving the stick
- around)
- 3. exhausting from contiued high g
-
- quiet_man


That is exactly what i am looking for in this sim!!!

3 International Avia Polk
***** 3.IAP_CHARLIE *****

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 12:33 PM
cfs3 simulates stick pressure very well, pass an extreme and your not getting out of the dive even with trim and full elevator use


We do need airframe overstressing, it played a crutial factor between the germans us and vvs

Truth is just about any plane can stick on any planes tail unlike how fb is, the margin of better turning aircraft was so small.

Planes were not outdated because of turning ability but top speed in wwii.


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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 01:04 PM
IL2 and FB use strength based stick controls. When you pull your stick it is telling the virtual pilot how hard to pull the controls. This is affected by stick sensitivity for the user to set the proportion of strength to stick pull %. I dunno how CFS-anything could be more of that. When the patch comes out with the FM tunings, what will we read then?

I like Jurinkos idea and the one about as time goes by the strength decreases. It amounts to modelling pilot fatigue in at least a simple manner requiring both fatigue and recovery. I would like to add that there needs to be some kind of indicator, possibly a % bar on the screen and maybe when there is a lot of exertion and high fatigue %, the sound of the pilot breathing hard would be very good. We need to have a feel for the strain if the strain is going to be used. It would probably go a long way towards making up for no G meter as well.


Neal

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 03:06 PM
jurinko wrote:
- -
- Well, my idea is to decrease the blackout treshold
- (ehm, hope its the correct word), so the blackout
- occurs sooner.
- ?
-
--------------
-

OK, fine, but...what will changing the thresholds really change in the sim? What you are talking about is individual pilot's threashold and skill, and you're trying to simulate that by the modelling of the aircraft, in effect.

Ok look, let's look at this another way. let's say that every airplane in FB has 100% of it's capability to turn before the pilot blacks out. Now you reduce that to 50%. It has changed NOTHING- the planes still all have an arbitrary amount of performance. You have reduced each and every variable by the same amount. The sim doesn't model each and every pilot, rather I should think it models the average pilot's ability to resist black- and red- out. What you're talking about is all pilot oriented- skill, experience, confidence, aggresiveness, and you want to implement that in FB. Fine, but you can't do that with the flight model, all you could do is randomly determine that sort of thing, which people would hate, or you could somehow model each player's ability, based on some type of actual physical testing...and I don't see that happening.

In single player, I could see a system where the pilot flies his first say 5 missions with 70% or so of his 'full' ability, which might be as high as 95% of the airplane's structural limits, and after that, he gains a few percentage points each mission or kill, or gains say 1% for each mission, 1% for every victory, and 1% for a succesful mission and landing, so that a lomgtime veteran would be more skillful....but is that what you want? In multiplayer, it would be hard to do that, I should think. Mostly because the average "lifespan" of an MP pilot is rated in minutes.


~note:

I am not addressing variable control inputs, or anything of that nature, I am addressing one point and one point only: the one I quoted.


Message Edited on 07/17/0303:10PM by BBB462cid

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 03:15 PM
I like the idea of decreasing the sticks input to the flight surfaces over time of turn if this is modeled with the individual plane characteristics in mind. They won't all be the same.

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 03:52 PM
orcabuzz wrote:
- I like the idea of decreasing the sticks input to
- the flight surfaces over time of turn if this is
- modeled with the individual plane characteristics in
- mind. They won't all be the same.

Absolutely, I agree. But simply reducing the threshold across the baord will make no change except to make every plane turn worse, and by the same amount.
-
-

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 04:09 PM
why not just make a more accurate FM so that the 109/190 turn better and make AI stall and less manuverable (i mean a more accurate FM, not just make them all turn worse)

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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 04:18 PM
Something like this would be great and would turn down the mega furballs we see now in FB.

Are those realistic anyways, I mean did that big furballs happen in WWII or are they just the creation of FB because people arent scared of death.

Structure stressing imho is the priority 1 from these matters but I wouldnt mind seeing pilot exhaustion etc /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 01:03 AM
Some people are not understanding.

* The change is to only how the pilot is modelled, not the FM.

* The change changes with time spent pulling hard on the stick or not. A pilot could make harder turns when rested than after a lot of hard stick pulling. The change would cut 'hard turns forever' flying and make better combat realism. A rested pilot could zoom into a fight and outturn a weary pilot even in the same plane.

* Some planes would put more strain on the pilot than others and the speeds of the planes would vary how hard it is to pull the stick as well. Go slow and there's much less strain, turn hard at high speed and there is more. High speed pullouts and turns were much harder in a 109 than in a 190 for instance.

* Pulling far on the PC stick =is= the pilot pulling hard unless your stick setup is all low percentages. Maybe straining or resting could be metered by how much stick is used?


Neal

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 01:12 AM
Oh i have to revise my message.
To include Physical model - airframe failures - OK!
But pilot tired? Everybody will wait until others players are not tired and than he come and kill them easily...
And game becomes from good fight game the strategic for coward /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif


3 International Avia Polk
***** 3.IAP_CHARLIE *****

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 02:06 AM
I would like to see this:
When the pilot reach the "blackout" limit, he passes away for a good amount of time, not allowing any control of the aircraft, and(of course) loosen up the controls.

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 08:32 AM
COLLIN_GRAY wrote:
- Oh i have to revise my message.
- To include Physical model - airframe failures - OK!
- But pilot tired? Everybody will wait until others
- players are not tired and than he come and kill them
- easily...
- And game becomes from good fight game the strategic
- for coward /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif -
-
-
- 3 International Avia Polk
- ***** 3.IAP_CHARLIE *****

People would have to manage pilot energy just like engine heat and flying energy state, not just be robot machines with limited arm power always the same. Is this a combat flight sim trying for higher realism or an arena for playing at aerial jousting? For the latter there is always realism toggles, no? Pilot Fatigue = ON/OFF.

Was Erich Hartmann a coward? What do you think Boom and Zoom is? That was as history. It was for real HELL in battle, I have different accounts where the pilots say their fight was as much a battle of endurance as abilities of the planes if not more. And they were the guys that lived to tell it.

The best pilots don't hold the stick way back long anyway, the drag slows the plane too much to be efficient and fast. So if you are not an idiot then you are a coward? Because the best pilots are in and out in a flash, picking off the slow enemy while he concentrates/fixates on a different target while circling around just a bit faster than stall speed.


Neal