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M2morris
04-22-2006, 10:26 PM
Here's a good little film with alot of how-to stuff for flying the Coursair. Interesting stuff like take-off trim, engine management, fuel,stalls, torque effect, take off and landing, maneuvers etc.. etc. One thing I dont like about the F4U is the dam antenna mast in front of the windscreen, youd think they couldve found a better way to do that. But this film makes me a jealous mofo of those trainees who used it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1056703518162002454&q=ww2&pl=true

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/planegeek/grab0012.jpg

M2morris
04-22-2006, 10:26 PM
Here's a good little film with alot of how-to stuff for flying the Coursair. Interesting stuff like take-off trim, engine management, fuel,stalls, torque effect, take off and landing, maneuvers etc.. etc. One thing I dont like about the F4U is the dam antenna mast in front of the windscreen, youd think they couldve found a better way to do that. But this film makes me a jealous mofo of those trainees who used it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1056703518162002454&q=ww2&pl=true

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/planegeek/grab0012.jpg

M2morris
04-22-2006, 10:33 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif I screwed-up my cool picture.

Tully__
04-23-2006, 02:54 AM
Nice film, but what a lot to do just to set up for a dive http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Edit: On second thoughts I've seen worse dive checklists, the Helldiver I think was one of them and it's a purpose built dive bomber... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

VVaFFenPanZZeR
04-23-2006, 04:41 AM
Very educational.

Pig_Mac
04-23-2006, 06:26 AM
Thanks a LOT! really nice film.. Now find one for each plane we have in IL2 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lodovik
04-23-2006, 07:06 AM
Holy Nifty Switch-O-Rama, Batman!
I just got a bad case of switch fever...
Must... resist... firing up the sim... flying something with lots of switches...
Ggglloorghhh, Mmmm... Switches, buttons... <drool>

Erm, I mean: Thanks for posting http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

M2morris
04-23-2006, 07:54 AM
Funny they would have the gear down like that on the dive, I would think the gear would be damaged. But there was alot to know when flying it, must have became second nature eventually, but not over-nite.

WB_Outlaw
04-23-2006, 09:29 AM
I hope that BoB will have an option for "Realistic Engine Management" forcing us to be very careful with manifold pressure and various temperatures.

Thanks for the link!

--Outlaw.

Tully__
04-23-2006, 06:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M2morris:
Funny they would have the gear down like that on the dive, I would think the gear would be damaged. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
On the F4-U the main gear doubled as a dive brake. When lowered with the dive brake control the landing locks were not engaged, so if too high a speed was reach the gear would just fold back some without breaking anything.

squadldr76
04-24-2006, 01:28 AM
Ok, I have a curious question for the airplane experts out there.

What exactly is the purpose of the cartridge during startup? I've seen it used several times before, and then it peaked my interest this time after watching the film. I know that the cartridge loosely resembles a shotgun shell in appearance, but that's about all I know about it. Is it a necessity when starting an engine?

I'm interested in understanding the technical aspect of this particular piece, so any info would be appreciated. Thanks!

reisen52
04-24-2006, 02:48 AM
There were 2 types in the US, made by Coffmann and the Eclpise- both were sililar in operation.

The cartridges resemble a shotgun shell, and the starter consists of a breech assembly, and the starter proper. The breech has a line going to the starter, and there is an exhaust line from the starter venting out of the aircraft. The starter is cylindrical and bolted to the accessory case on the normal starter pad. The starter also has a normal starter clutch on the end.

Internally, in the starter, there is a piston attached to the shaft by helical splines, the shaft goes to the starter clutch.

The cartridge is fired electrically, and the burning gas produces a high pressure through the line to the starter piston, which is pushed down, engaging the clutch. The helical splines give it a rotational motion. At the end of the piston's stroke, a valve opens to vent the gas from the starter, and allowing the piston to return to it's normal postion. The clutch disengages normally from the engine.

Aside from attaching it to the engine, and installing the breech, it requires no modifications of the engine, and is very light in weight.

Zeke

M2morris
04-24-2006, 06:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tully__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M2morris:
Funny they would have the gear down like that on the dive, I would think the gear would be damaged. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
On the F4-U the main gear doubled as a dive brake. When lowered with the dive brake control the landing locks were not engaged, so if too high a speed was reach the gear would just fold back some without breaking anything. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Okay, it makes sense now, thanks.

Dean3238
04-24-2006, 06:53 AM
For a great look at the Coffman starter, see Flight of the Phoenix (original, not modern remake).

Dean

M2morris
04-24-2006, 06:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by reisen52:
There were 2 types in the US, made by Coffmann and the Eclpise- both were sililar in operation.

The cartridges resemble a shotgun shell, and the starter consists of a breech assembly, and the starter proper. The breech has a line going to the starter, and there is an exhaust line from the starter venting out of the aircraft. The starter is cylindrical and bolted to the accessory case on the normal starter pad. The starter also has a normal starter clutch on the end.

Internally, in the starter, there is a piston attached to the shaft by helical splines, the shaft goes to the starter clutch.

The cartridge is fired electrically, and the burning gas produces a high pressure through the line to the starter piston, which is pushed down, engaging the clutch. The helical splines give it a rotational motion. At the end of the piston's stroke, a valve opens to vent the gas from the starter, and allowing the piston to return to it's normal postion. The clutch disengages normally from the engine.

Aside from attaching it to the engine, and installing the breech, it requires no modifications of the engine, and is very light in weight.

Zeke </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's interesting reisen52, I always wondered about how those worked. After watching Jimmy Stewart in flight of the pheonix use them to start his plane I always did wonder how they worked.

Sooocool
04-24-2006, 10:30 AM
Loved that film. Thanks!
I had thought that the F4U's landing gear hydraulics raised the main wheels one at a time like that of the DC-3. Guess not. Now I€m wondering about the Dakota, or whatever the USN number for it was. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Treetop64
04-24-2006, 10:33 AM
Excellent video. I was actually taking notes on the climbing and cruise phases of the flight.

Funny thing that they were showing white text on top of the white clouds when further explaining cruise settings! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

JG53Frankyboy
04-24-2006, 10:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sooocool:
............the Dakota, or whatever the USN number for it was. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

R4D

squadldr76
04-24-2006, 10:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by reisen52:
There were 2 types in the US, made by Coffmann and the Eclpise- both were sililar in operation.

The cartridges resemble a shotgun shell, and the starter consists of a breech assembly, and the starter proper. The breech has a line going to the starter, and there is an exhaust line from the starter venting out of the aircraft. The starter is cylindrical and bolted to the accessory case on the normal starter pad. The starter also has a normal starter clutch on the end.

Internally, in the starter, there is a piston attached to the shaft by helical splines, the shaft goes to the starter clutch.

The cartridge is fired electrically, and the burning gas produces a high pressure through the line to the starter piston, which is pushed down, engaging the clutch. The helical splines give it a rotational motion. At the end of the piston's stroke, a valve opens to vent the gas from the starter, and allowing the piston to return to it's normal postion. The clutch disengages normally from the engine.

Aside from attaching it to the engine, and installing the breech, it requires no modifications of the engine, and is very light in weight.

Zeke </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks! That's exactly the type of answer I was hoping for. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Here's another question if you'll permit me: Are these starters common on most engines? Were they used just on radial ones? Or were there other methods used as well...

Ok, sorry, it's a cluster of three questions. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I wish I knew where there was a really detailed website of things like this. According to people around me, I am somewhat of a nerd when it comes to airplanes. But I would relish the opportunity to become nerdier. Anybody have any good sites that talk about small technical nuiances like this?

IL2-chuter
04-24-2006, 04:05 PM
Don't forget . . . the Hellcat had a landing gear dive brake as well. It wasn't that the tailwheel couldn't handle the aerodynamic forces of a dive but the tailwheel doors and linkage, this is also a factor with main gear doors on many aircraft. (I find it funny landing gear legs actually break off during dives in the game. Mustangs without uplocks would sometimes have their gear drop a bit in dive recoveries and the aero loads would result in the loss of the wings but apparently the gear was still in the wing wreckage.)

Back OT. I want my Hellcat dive brake. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

M2morris
04-24-2006, 08:46 PM
About the coffman starter; this is making me wonder about how Jimmy Stewart was inserting the cartidges from inside the cockpit, I think there was a breach on his left side( I remember the German model plane designer having a caniption fit about it)But what I am wondering is, what if a guy in an F4U forgot to switch tanks or something, could he re-start the engine? He cannot accessed his cartridge breach.

TC_Stele
04-24-2006, 09:40 PM
Heck of a checklist. I could just see us doing all that for dogfight sessions. Everyone would be on the ground at least 5 - 10 mins.

Tully__
04-24-2006, 11:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M2morris:
About the coffman starter; this is making me wonder about how Jimmy Stewart was inserting the cartidges from inside the cockpit, I think there was a breach on his left side( I remember the German model plane designer having a caniption fit about it)But what I am wondering is, what if a guy in an F4U forgot to switch tanks or something, could he re-start the engine? He cannot accessed his cartridge breach. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You need four things to start a petrol engine:

Air
Fuel
Spark
Some means of turning the engine for the first turn or three.

In flight if you run a tank dry and everything else is still working, as long as the aircraft is going fast enough that the propellor will turn the engine over all you have to do to restart is switch tanks. The cartridge starter's only purpose is to provide a means of turning the engine over in the absence of other safe means.

In earlier times it was common to have ground crew manually spin the prop, but on an aircraft capable of well over 1000hp the prop can spin up so quickly it's just not safe to have ground crew in the vicinity when starting.

Other means of starting included electric (like cars), compressed air (like some big diesel engines in tractor/trailer rigs) and inertial starter (a big flywheel spun up to speed with a crank handle then clutched to the engine once sufficient energy is built up). In some aircraft the methods were combined, using air or electric means to spin up an inertial starter for instance. All of these setups were there for the express purpose of keeping people out of line of the propellor where they might get hurt, particularly on bigger engines that might need two or three people involved for manually turning over the engine.

WB_Outlaw
04-25-2006, 06:55 AM
The "whine" of an electric inertial starter is music to my ears. Unfortunately, modern electric starters don't need that flywheel anymore and crank up those big engines just like the starters in our cars.

--Outlaw.

M2morris
04-25-2006, 08:28 AM
I had a hunch it could be restarted by windmilling but I wanted to hear it from someone else, thnks Tully. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/planegeek/grab0012.jpg