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View Full Version : When is Aramusha vs assassin auto-win getting fixed?



SphericalChip53
04-17-2018, 03:15 AM
[Console]
Now I understand it being an honest mistake on Ubisoft's part to not realize Aramusha can light/soft feint spam against all assassins at his release, but the fact that we have gone into the NEXT season without it being fixed is just an unprecedented show of incompetence on Ubisoft's part, especially after they buffed conq to give him the exact same light spam auto-win against everyone with reflex guard. Like seriously, "light spam" has been complained about since the game's beta (I was there with nobushi and orochi), but now that we ACTUALLY have an infinite light spam that makes for a worse cutscene for the victim than OG cent, a part of the game is now 100% unfightable and 200% unfun for all assassins, an entire class set.
And the worst part is the Aramushas on console who are well-aware of this and blatantly abusing it. I left a lobby that matched me against two abusive Aramushas in a lagfest, just to get requeued against them in the next lobby. Thank God for the leaving grace period.

Knight_Raime
04-17-2018, 04:00 AM
~console is a crutch argument. I play on console and i'm never insta killed via spam with mushu.

~if you're dying to conq light spam then the characters kits in question are not the issue. Your skill is.

~Reflex guard is receiving some bug fixes in the next patch coming up here in the next few days. Might alleviate some death to mushu according to the devs.

The rest just sounds like whining because you died rather than accepting your terrible reflexs are apart of why you died. If you want help on how to deal with a character i'd be more than happy to help. But if you're going to blame the class/developers for your own short comings then there is no point in me wasting my time on someone who doesn't want to listen.

Mia.Nora
04-17-2018, 04:57 AM
I can reliably block/deflect Aramusha and Conq light chains vs AI matchmaking OFF games.

The moment I go into PvP with latency being a reality, it is a ***fest. Same timing/reflex does not work anymore. Developers both incompetent in balancing and only test stuff on their internal servers, so game is not coded with the mindset of how it should have worked in online environment.

Sad thing is I was waiting for lag compensation to fix it, but all we get is 33ms input latency. Obviously it wont fix ****..

EvoX.
04-17-2018, 01:25 PM
Aramusha doesn't actually have an auto-win against Assassins...

Aurockson
04-17-2018, 03:45 PM
Don't get me wrong I'm extremely biased against Ara ... Hate that guy.. So my opinion is a little weaker here because of that and I acknowledge that. But maybe specifically for console if the Aramusha does only light inf chain it seems impossible to block up because of stagger and I can't dodge backwards because of his heat-seeking blades.. I've had instances where I've literally spammed back dodge and end up just getting sh*t down my throat cause of those aforementioned heat-seeking blades.. same scenario with blocking up to try to stop the chain or at least block some of the damage but it just stun locks me... This only seems to happen against the inf light chain so most of the time a rep 2+ Ara won't even bother with it so I don't encounter it that often+ not that many Ara mains anyways (That I've seen)

Kelson27
04-17-2018, 04:01 PM
Itís got nothing to do with reflexes, and everything to do with latency and reflex guard. There is a delay on activation of reflex guard, Iíve proven it in videos from a thread posted some time back. That delay doesnít exist for other classes, and when an assassin takes a hit the delay appears to actively be too slow to recover on console. No idea about pc, Iím on Xbox.

For reference, I main both raider and orochi.

As raider, ara wonít get a single light through, if they do, I can still get my guard up to stop it from continuing. As orochi however, I will brutalise ara until one of those lights slip through, then Iíll eat death or heíll run oos, at which point I might as well be dead with my sliver of health left.

At the moment, I tend to find those still abusing light spam havenít really got his kit down, unless itís someone youíve been destroying for the first half of the match and they break it out for revenge. Riptide strike has been amazing against these abusers for me. Other than that, right now, I practically single those aras out in dominion, they arenít a hard matchup imo, but that light spam is a problem that no amount of ďgit gudĒ from the community is going to fix - put em down fast and hard.

Iíd been holding out final judgement until lag comp comes in. Fingers crossed, if it could be responded to I think Ara would actually be a fun bout.

Siegfried-Z
04-17-2018, 07:20 PM
~console is a crutch argument. I play on console and i'm never insta killed via spam with mushu.

~if you're dying to conq light spam then the characters kits in question are not the issue. Your skill is.

~Reflex guard is receiving some bug fixes in the next patch coming up here in the next few days. Might alleviate some death to mushu according to the devs.

The rest just sounds like whining because you died rather than accepting your terrible reflexs are apart of why you died. If you want help on how to deal with a character i'd be more than happy to help. But if you're going to blame the class/developers for your own short comings then there is no point in me wasting my time on someone who doesn't want to listen.

Sorry man but it is not about skill... I am on PS4.

Like it is said already up, if i play my Kensei or my Warden, even if feinting, i can stop quite easely most of the time the Ara combo.

BUT if i play my Shaman, My PK or EVEN my Valk... this is far more difficult.

First of all, the gard is too slow to activate on time on most of Ara lights if you get hit by one.

But another point is, even if you block it, with assassins most of the time this isn't interupting his combo ! It's mean he can just go through and hit hit hit again even if you block everything.

BTW you can block and interupt him but only if you really anticipate it which is not easy on console.

To finish, the new Conq lights chain is even worst in my opinion because he can change the direction as he want which is not the case for Aramusha combo.

Hop the next patch gonna fix it.

RenegadeTX2000
04-17-2018, 07:26 PM
I believe I have a top 10 Aramusha worldwide, would have to check again on that stat but like... I dropped the guy for Berserker. He's just not good once you block on him lol. Berserker does the better job then him and that's the guy i replaced him with. gotta get him to rep something though. only level 17.

UbiJurassic
04-17-2018, 07:47 PM
As some other players have already said, Aramusha does not auto-win with light attacks against Assassins. It's certainly hard to consistently block against Aramusha's lights as an assassin, but it is possible. The timing is rather tight, so try adjusting the deadzones on your controller and practicing against Aramusha bots to get used to blocking his attacks. When the training arena drops with this week's patch, you'll have an even better area to practice against this.

Alustar.
04-17-2018, 11:20 PM
I feel the problem with assassins vs Musha is their susceptibility to hit stun, not with the Musha himself. Coming from a 4v4 stance I've noticed that since he's been out, it's become more frequent that one or more payers will stagger attacks to keep an assassin locked in that animation with very little options. Couple that with a lack of lag compensation it becomes extremely frustrating. I don't notice this problem when I run highlander, since static guard seems more effective at dealing with multiple hits staggered together.

Card1acArrest
04-17-2018, 11:36 PM
sorry, I play on PC and use keyboard. No controller, no deadwhatsitscalled.

Same problem.

With my Orochi rep 9 I could not block any hits at all plus minus 10% the last time I played a good Ara. I had to switch to a permanent block classnto live more than 4 seconds. we played like 5-6 4v4 and talked about it. he felt bad and good (grrr) about the easenof killing assys.

can you please try it yourself?

keep at it man, things will get fixed.

SphericalChip53
04-18-2018, 03:48 AM
~console is a crutch argument. I play on console and i'm never insta killed via spam with mushu.

~if you're dying to conq light spam then the characters kits in question are not the issue. Your skill is.

Read the rest of the thread and try again. As stated by Kelson27, this problem has already been proven with videos, and even validating explanations, some of which are provided in this thread. Outright dismissing the existence of this problem and then trying to point your finger at my (lack of) skill isn't going to work here, sorry.


As some other players have already said, Aramusha does not auto-win with light attacks against Assassins. It's certainly hard to consistently block against Aramusha's lights as an assassin, but it is possible. The timing is rather tight, so try adjusting the deadzones on your controller and practicing against Aramusha bots to get used to blocking his attacks. When the training arena drops with this week's patch, you'll have an even better area to practice against this.

Ah, the classic Ubisoft mod coming out to defend whatever Ubisoft does, never acknowledging Ubisoft's blatant mistakes, even outright denying them, and then furthermore only acknowledging the minority of posts confirming their side, however few and un-argumentative they are. Yet this thread is filled with others having the same issue with proper arguments, yet they go completely unrecognized... very nice.
Allow me to add on to their arguments:
You claim that there exists a "tight" window to block the chained lights of an aramusha by an assassin, yet, as already stated in this thread, competent assassin players are well-aware of the side-top-side alternation in the aramusha's chain that can be blocked on prediction, or at least should be able to be blocked on prediction. Just set your (reflex) guard to top, right? And the chain will stop itself, right? If only it were as simple as you would make it seem...
Because, this tactic clearly isn't working for assassins, and you refuse to admit why: assassin's have a debilitating stun recovery that often gets them stun-locked in gank situations (as already stated in this thread), but now is completely abused by the chained lights of aramushas and conquerors effectively on console due to no lag comp and having to react on 30 fps in the first place (this is why console isn't a crutch argument, Raime). However, the 30 frames don't even matter in the first place if blocking on prediction isn't even working as it should, due to the lag and stun recovery.
My hopes are the new direction the devs are taking with standardizing non-core hero traits, such as the back dash distance/recovery, will also extend to the assassins's stun recovery; it would only seem fair.

Kelson27
04-18-2018, 01:40 PM
Here you go: I went against every moral fibre in my body and apologise sincerely to those on the receiving end - at least it was for a good cause.

Here is absolutely no problem whatsoever in action, in the hands of someone whoís never touched ara in his life - first match. My only experience is being on the receiving end and knowing full well what the problem is.

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/kd27/video/48112310

Now I know why the trolls do it. Interestingly, all match the orochi never ever got a single hit in, and always died the moment I struck. In fact all the original assassins barely responded at all. Do with it what you will. I made sure to PM each of them that either their reflexes werenít good enough, or that they should get themselves into training against ara bots, itís hard but itís not impossible after all.

Sorry, I take that back. I would never do such a thing, though that is what Iím seeing as responses in this thread and many others against a very real problem. I hope this finally settles the silly back and forth that keeps going on and at some point, somebody acknowledges this needs to be addressed - he is broken on console as far as Iím concerned. Imagine what happens in my second match and I knew what the hell I was doing.

One last point, say he can be blocked even though itís ďdifficult but not impossibleĒ for those who would still say this is AOK. What other character is difficult but not impossible to simply block that results in that kind of result? Let alone the fact it takes merely pointing the stick in 3 different directions and hitting a button to achieve it, no mind games, no nothing, and they all know exactly what direction the next hit is coming from. Name one.

wolfman25br
04-18-2018, 02:20 PM
As some other players have already said, Aramusha does not auto-win with light attacks against Assassins. It's certainly hard to consistently block against Aramusha's lights as an assassin, but it is possible. The timing is rather tight, so try adjusting the deadzones on your controller and practicing against Aramusha bots to get used to blocking his attacks. When the training arena drops with this week's patch, you'll have an even better area to practice against this.


extremely disappointing with this response. An apparent lack of knowledge or even less neglect of notorious facts. Tilt defense guard up to interrupt a sequence is far from something balanced, even more considering that the musha has a large repertoire of faints even. It is a fact that all assassins need to stay out of the way to not be ripped apart by a (middle to low) tier musha. The reflex guard cant stop him. Breaking the sequence in the middle, but proposing to swallow tons of damage is not the logical solution.

Pls fix it, and dont ******** us.

Knight_Raime
04-18-2018, 04:11 PM
Sorry man but it is not about skill... I am on PS4.

Like it is said already up, if i play my Kensei or my Warden, even if feinting, i can stop quite easely most of the time the Ara combo.

BUT if i play my Shaman, My PK or EVEN my Valk... this is far more difficult.

First of all, the gard is too slow to activate on time on most of Ara lights if you get hit by one.

But another point is, even if you block it, with assassins most of the time this isn't interupting his combo ! It's mean he can just go through and hit hit hit again even if you block everything.

BTW you can block and interupt him but only if you really anticipate it which is not easy on console.

To finish, the new Conq lights chain is even worst in my opinion because he can change the direction as he want which is not the case for Aramusha combo.

Hop the next patch gonna fix it.

I never once denied that it's harder to block with assassins/on console vs mushu. I' saying it's 100% possible to do so and I do it consistently.

Knight_Raime
04-18-2018, 04:32 PM
Itís got nothing to do with reflexes, and everything to do with latency and reflex guard. There is a delay on activation of reflex guard, Iíve proven it in videos from a thread posted some time back. That delay doesnít exist for other classes, and when an assassin takes a hit the delay appears to actively be too slow to recover on console. No idea about pc, Iím on Xbox.

For reference, I main both raider and orochi.

As raider, ara wonít get a single light through, if they do, I can still get my guard up to stop it from continuing. As orochi however, I will brutalise ara until one of those lights slip through, then Iíll eat death or heíll run oos, at which point I might as well be dead with my sliver of health left.

At the moment, I tend to find those still abusing light spam havenít really got his kit down, unless itís someone youíve been destroying for the first half of the match and they break it out for revenge. Riptide strike has been amazing against these abusers for me. Other than that, right now, I practically single those aras out in dominion, they arenít a hard matchup imo, but that light spam is a problem that no amount of ďgit gudĒ from the community is going to fix - put em down fast and hard.

Iíd been holding out final judgement until lag comp comes in. Fingers crossed, if it could be responded to I think Ara would actually be a fun bout.

Latency is irrelevant in balance discussion.
Reflex guard does not block instantly when switching unlike standard guard.
There is something in the game called "animation queing" where if you input things too close together the animations are qued together and will play one after another causing you to be locked into the animation. To give a real common example say you go to block something but you failed to switch in time and eat the hit. Now say the person is going to attack with a fast comboed attack after that lands and you (still in the damage frames) attempt to switch guard to block over there. But you eat the second hit anyway. This is because your character didn't finish the guard switch animation from the previous hit.

The most common occurance of this is how often toe stab lands on people. People flail their guard around vs him because he's feinting a lot. This animation que does effect standard guard heros as well. but it is less of a big deal for them because their guard is considered blocking all the time unless bashed. But because toe stab is an unblockable it effects both guard types equally.

So now that I have that explanation out of the way let me explain what happened in your video "proof" and why your skill is still a relevant point for me to contest.
In your video that orochi player was constantly attempting to switch his guard to the side you were attacking from. And because of that he was "stunned forever." The way to escape this is simple. If you've failed to block an attack from mushu DO NOT attempt to switch your guard. do not input anything. wait a little. and then block the direction of the next hit. What this does it is it allows you to finish your inputted guard direction (if you failed to block a hit on switch the first time) meaning your next input guard switch wise is not inputted in a que so you will block the follow up hit.

There are only 2 instances where a follow up attack on Mushu is confirmed. And this applies to both guard types. First being if he lands a side heavy at any time a top light is confirmed. The second being if he lands a deadly feinted side light a top light is also confirmed.

In any other instance it is either because you animation qued yourself or because you just failed to react in time. Now let me blow your mind here. I'm not saying that it's not harder to block aramusha on console. Nor am I saying it's not harder to do with reflex guard. What I AM saying is that your skill as a player is a huge factor in blocking. Animation queing is something the devs are aware of and have been aware of for a very long time. They've never stated if it was a problem in their eyes or not. They specifically mentioned that some reflex guard issues have supposedly been fixed which might make dealing with mushu easier.

To me this sounds like they could be fixing animation queing. But that would effect both guard types. So i'm not sure what they could be fixing. as the "not blocking on switch instantly" thing with reflex guard is intended.

Knight_Raime
04-18-2018, 04:38 PM
Read the rest of the thread and try again. As stated by Kelson27, this problem has already been proven with videos, and even validating explanations, some of which are provided in this thread. Outright dismissing the existence of this problem and then trying to point your finger at my (lack of) skill isn't going to work here, sorry.



Ah, the classic Ubisoft mod coming out to defend whatever Ubisoft does, never acknowledging Ubisoft's blatant mistakes, even outright denying them, and then furthermore only acknowledging the minority of posts confirming their side, however few and un-argumentative they are. Yet this thread is filled with others having the same issue with proper arguments, yet they go completely unrecognized... very nice.
Allow me to add on to their arguments:
You claim that there exists a "tight" window to block the chained lights of an aramusha by an assassin, yet, as already stated in this thread, competent assassin players are well-aware of the side-top-side alternation in the aramusha's chain that can be blocked on prediction, or at least should be able to be blocked on prediction. Just set your (reflex) guard to top, right? And the chain will stop itself, right? If only it were as simple as you would make it seem...
Because, this tactic clearly isn't working for assassins, and you refuse to admit why: assassin's have a debilitating stun recovery that often gets them stun-locked in gank situations (as already stated in this thread), but now is completely abused by the chained lights of aramushas and conquerors effectively on console due to no lag comp and having to react on 30 fps in the first place (this is why console isn't a crutch argument, Raime). However, the 30 frames don't even matter in the first place if blocking on prediction isn't even working as it should, due to the lag and stun recovery.
My hopes are the new direction the devs are taking with standardizing non-core hero traits, such as the back dash distance/recovery, will also extend to the assassins's stun recovery; it would only seem fair.

The video he posted here has proven nothing and only serves as conformation bias for you and him because you both don't understand mushu's kit and the games behavior. If you wish to know and actually learn something I suggest you read the reply I just gave him as i'm not going to repeat an explanation. Further more DRFrankendoodle (a well respected member who contributes information on the competitive reddit) has uploaded 2-3 videos where he as an assassin blocks mushu's combos in several instances. Proving that it's perfectly possible to block mushu's chains as an assassin if you know what you're doing.

Also there are no console specific bugs in regards to assassins or reflex guard. So. Finally and i'll repeat this again i'm not denying it being harder to block mushu on console as an assassin. What I am denying is that he infinite stuns assassins to death. If this happens it's 100% because you messed up as a player. Even taking animation queing into consideration an assassin can dodge into to deflect a follow up attack from mushu. So if for whatever reason you can't break your habit of bad guard switching or you can't improve your reflexes enough this is a solution.

Kelson27
04-18-2018, 11:18 PM
This isnít balance discussion and I already acknowledged reflex guard being the problem. Skill. Is. Irrelevent. Honestly you could have made your entire point without attacking others.

Look, I appreciate youíre pretty consistently on these forums and trying to help, but maybe thatís why you arenít seeing this as a problem. Youíve been to all the pro YouTube videos and looked into it a hundred times, likely discussed it at length. Youíve become rather knowledgeable on the topic and thatís why you donít see a game but the underlying mechanics, which are getting used as an excuse. Unless you can squeeze all that information into the move set page in game then itís completely moot.

All that rather lengthy post has done has solidified my understanding that this is a problem - it hasnít solved anything. I can still drink two wines, jumped into a game as a rep 0 ara (honestly how sloppy was my gameplay, I shouldnít have won any of that) and those people are still gonna get torn up and be the next people posting their leaving love letters on the forums. Thatís why Iím biased and that attitude isnít gonna change until reflex guard is initiates as quickly as standard guard. Thatís it.

Alustar.
04-18-2018, 11:57 PM
I just want to add this (as it seems to be all but forgotten) the community went into an uproar at over peacekeeper light spam, then they release Musha in season 4. I thought from the argument of skill based combat we had come to a consensus that light spam detracting from the game, and want healthy overall. Just my two cents.

Kelson27
04-19-2018, 04:23 AM
Alls good guys and gals! In the latest patch notes they specifically mention a fix to ara light spam against assassins. Fingers crossed itís all nutted out, see you on the field 😉

Knight_Raime
04-19-2018, 02:18 PM
This isn’t balance discussion and I already acknowledged reflex guard being the problem. Skill. Is. Irrelevent. Honestly you could have made your entire point without attacking others.

Look, I appreciate you’re pretty consistently on these forums and trying to help, but maybe that’s why you aren’t seeing this as a problem. You’ve been to all the pro YouTube videos and looked into it a hundred times, likely discussed it at length. You’ve become rather knowledgeable on the topic and that’s why you don’t see a game but the underlying mechanics, which are getting used as an excuse. Unless you can squeeze all that information into the move set page in game then it’s completely moot.

All that rather lengthy post has done has solidified my understanding that this is a problem - it hasn’t solved anything. I can still drink two wines, jumped into a game as a rep 0 ara (honestly how sloppy was my gameplay, I shouldn’t have won any of that) and those people are still gonna get torn up and be the next people posting their leaving love letters on the forums. That’s why I’m biased and that attitude isn’t gonna change until reflex guard is initiates as quickly as standard guard. That’s it.

I mean we're discussing assassins vs Aramusha so it deff comes off as balance talk. Me pointing out a possible fault in yourself is not attacking you. I can accept and agree that I don't always word things the best and can do better (and I strive to do so) But please don't throw my entire post directed at you with this. It's not very productive. I wrote out that length of a post to be informative.

Maybe it's my bad for not directly stating it but I never said animation queing wasn't a problem. The only thing I was trying to do was explain what was happening and why and even how to not run into it. Actually I only really watch 2 people for information. Jbirse for maximum punishes and freeze for frame data/misc info. I don't really watch anyone competitively. The rest of this part is a little confusing. Are you saying that the information (i.e punishes, frame data, etc) can be ignored because it's not on a page in game? That's not how things work. Fighter games never give frame data. And further more tech is usually never put on a move list either.

If your overarching "problem" is that aramusha is broken vs assassins I can't really see how my post solidified that as a fact to you. Imo for that to happen i'd have to have told you something that verifies it's basically impossible to deal with Aramusha or that something isn't working as intended in this instance. Neither of which my post did. Also I find it a bit contradictory that you make a statement relative to skill (the drinking wine and still winning) but tell me in the opening that skill is irrelevent. If you can be intoxicated and still win that situation either you're better than you think and/or those people are actually bad.

Can you clarify what "initiates as quickly" means? If you're implying blocking as soon as standard guard heros do that's never going to happen. Because the point of reflex guard is having a worse defense. If you can block as soon as them you'd have an objectively better guard (since reflex heros can attack before finishing a guard switch animation but standard can't.) As I already mentioned in my first reply to this thread though the devs were going to make some under the hood fixes to reflex to make it feel better.

wolfman25br
04-19-2018, 05:27 PM
As stated on patch note:

[Adjustment] Stance Change – Reflex Guard Block
We made some under-the-hood changes that should fix the problem where Assassins were unable to block fast chains properly. (This problem was most often experienced against the Aramusha's light chain).

So yeah, it was indeed something wrong with that.

Thx for the devs for listening. Lets see how does it works.

For everyone that goes with "git gut" atittude:
https://media.giphy.com/media/gmg7s5bBQzlN6/giphy.gif

Kelson27
04-20-2018, 09:21 AM
I mean we're discussing assassins vs Aramusha so it deff comes off as balance talk. Me pointing out a possible fault in yourself is not attacking you. I can accept and agree that I don't always word things the best and can do better (and I strive to do so) But please don't throw my entire post directed at you with this. It's not very productive. I wrote out that length of a post to be informative.

Maybe it's my bad for not directly stating it but I never said animation queing wasn't a problem. The only thing I was trying to do was explain what was happening and why and even how to not run into it. Actually I only really watch 2 people for information. Jbirse for maximum punishes and freeze for frame data/misc info. I don't really watch anyone competitively. The rest of this part is a little confusing. Are you saying that the information (i.e punishes, frame data, etc) can be ignored because it's not on a page in game? That's not how things work. Fighter games never give frame data. And further more tech is usually never put on a move list either.

If your overarching "problem" is that aramusha is broken vs assassins I can't really see how my post solidified that as a fact to you. Imo for that to happen i'd have to have told you something that verifies it's basically impossible to deal with Aramusha or that something isn't working as intended in this instance. Neither of which my post did. Also I find it a bit contradictory that you make a statement relative to skill (the drinking wine and still winning) but tell me in the opening that skill is irrelevent. If you can be intoxicated and still win that situation either you're better than you think and/or those people are actually bad.

Can you clarify what "initiates as quickly" means? If you're implying blocking as soon as standard guard heros do that's never going to happen. Because the point of reflex guard is having a worse defense. If you can block as soon as them you'd have an objectively better guard (since reflex heros can attack before finishing a guard switch animation but standard can't.) As I already mentioned in my first reply to this thread though the devs were going to make some under the hood fixes to reflex to make it feel better.

Yo, sorry I probably came off quite defensive myself.

What I meant was that if the data youíre putting forward isnít explained to the player in game, or in this case following the same precedent of defence set by the game prior to this point, then by all means I am going to see it as broken. A new player will pick up the controls, learn how to defend and then fight ara, where everything they have learnt stops working for reasons not apparent or explained to them. Reflex guard was likely broken for a long time but we never had the character to fight against that pushed that boundary too far to the point we canít respond the way weíve naturally learned.

Iíve seen the blocking vids too, for most of it the only way to block and get out of it is to take more damage - this shouldnít be the case. If you can anticipate whatís coming up next then it should work like the player expects. It should definitely work if thatís the case for the rest of the roster that ainít assassins too. Thatís where I come to the quicker initiation part. I noticed as raider in my recorded vids, flicking the guard is basically instant opposed to orochi where there is a slight delay. Iím all for the assassin having a lesser guard, but that should come in the form of the decay, chip damage potentially, definitely not as a cost to the players reactions - as it was we were being penalised for essentially doing the right thing as visualised to us on screen.

The skill is irrelevent part plays into that. No matter how good you were if you canít respond the way a player expects to be able to, then thatís bad design. Me picking ara and having never played with him was just to show that this was a problem as the opponents skill didnít matter, my rather delayed reactions, dropping chains, hitting walls etc didnít even play a part in my dismantling three players without (i think) taking a hit. It became easy mode because I abused a loophole in the game mechanics.

Hope that all makes sense, no hard feelings 😉

Kelson27
04-20-2018, 10:58 AM
Ok... so at first glance it looks like It ainít enough. Someone running around as nobushi last round, gets destroyed. As typical as it gets changes to ara next round and again getting destroyed until light spam... spam spam spam spam spam oos. Really boring. Devs, Iím all for strategy and mind games. Reflex guard needs to get up to speed post haste.

Camemberto
04-20-2018, 12:36 PM
Can you clarify what "initiates as quickly" means? If you're implying blocking as soon as standard guard heros do that's never going to happen. Because the point of reflex guard is having a worse defense. If you can block as soon as them you'd have an objectively better guard (since reflex heros can attack before finishing a guard switch animation but standard can't.) As I already mentioned in my first reply to this thread though the devs were going to make some under the hood fixes to reflex to make it feel better.

So why not change it, so that assassins also can't attack before finishing the guard switch animation, but don't have a delay on their guard. Can't be that hard.

I have tried my luck against a BOT Aramusha yesterday in the training arena and was able to block some of the lights, so that's something. You can even deflect his lights continuously if you manage to catch the first light in the chain and don't mess up the followups. However, as soon as one light hits you, the dodge button becomes pretty much null and void due to stunlock.

I have not yet jumped into MP since the new patch but I can't imagine the results to line up... as far as blocking is concerned, I don't think it'll have gotten much better than before.

ONYX_x5
04-20-2018, 01:00 PM
The players and Devs say " You can fly in For Honor! " And yes! Yes you can!
Jumping off a high ledge you accomplish flight for 33 ms. The rest of that time is leaping.. Free falling.. And impact at the end. See? They said you could fly.
Cent and Ara both have the advantage because you make one mistake it's over. But ya, you can beat them. And , well , flight is do able too.

Knight_Raime
04-20-2018, 02:05 PM
Yo, sorry I probably came off quite defensive myself.

What I meant was that if the data you’re putting forward isn’t explained to the player in game, or in this case following the same precedent of defence set by the game prior to this point, then by all means I am going to see it as broken. A new player will pick up the controls, learn how to defend and then fight ara, where everything they have learnt stops working for reasons not apparent or explained to them. Reflex guard was likely broken for a long time but we never had the character to fight against that pushed that boundary too far to the point we can’t respond the way we’ve naturally learned.

I’ve seen the blocking vids too, for most of it the only way to block and get out of it is to take more damage - this shouldn’t be the case. If you can anticipate what’s coming up next then it should work like the player expects. It should definitely work if that’s the case for the rest of the roster that ain’t assassins too. That’s where I come to the quicker initiation part. I noticed as raider in my recorded vids, flicking the guard is basically instant opposed to orochi where there is a slight delay. I’m all for the assassin having a lesser guard, but that should come in the form of the decay, chip damage potentially, definitely not as a cost to the players reactions - as it was we were being penalised for essentially doing the right thing as visualised to us on screen.

The skill is irrelevent part plays into that. No matter how good you were if you can’t respond the way a player expects to be able to, then that’s bad design. Me picking ara and having never played with him was just to show that this was a problem as the opponents skill didn’t matter, my rather delayed reactions, dropping chains, hitting walls etc didn’t even play a part in my dismantling three players without (i think) taking a hit. It became easy mode because I abused a loophole in the game mechanics.

Hope that all makes sense, no hard feelings ��

I agree that some mechanical things in this game should be explained. Like option selects. And if animation queing is intended than it should be explained as well.
I personally agree with you when it comes to animation queing. I don't think it should be a thing. Maybe if guard types were the same. But not with reflex guard.
will have to agree to disagree on the skill comment.
No hard feelings.



Ok... so at first glance it looks like It ain’t enough. Someone running around as nobushi last round, gets destroyed. As typical as it gets changes to ara next round and again getting destroyed until light spam... spam spam spam spam spam oos. Really boring. Devs, I’m all for strategy and mind games. Reflex guard needs to get up to speed post haste.


I will try out Aramusha and play against one as an assassin in the next few days. Maybe i'll be able to discern a difference since i'm usually able to defend myself against armusha inf light rather easily.


So why not change it, so that assassins also can't attack before finishing the guard switch animation, but don't have a delay on their guard. Can't be that hard.

I have tried my luck against a BOT Aramusha yesterday in the training arena and was able to block some of the lights, so that's something. You can even deflect his lights continuously if you manage to catch the first light in the chain and don't mess up the followups. However, as soon as one light hits you, the dodge button becomes pretty much null and void due to stunlock.

I have not yet jumped into MP since the new patch but I can't imagine the results to line up... as far as blocking is concerned, I don't think it'll have gotten much better than before.

I think that sounds fine on paper. But i'm unsure how that would effect their ability to do dodge attacks. if it will. Or any other attack for that matter. I've deflected ara mid combo actually. It is harder to do for sure. but doable.

Kelson27
04-20-2018, 04:00 PM
I will say it feels better than it did, in training I had a good go tonight and blocked a lot as orochi. However, unless Iím mistaken you canít get the bot to simply drop lights and not mixup heavies into it - itís just what the move says on the box. I thought maybe theyíd have it in the presets too but... nada. Itís definitely a widely used online strat!

When I play 4v4, if ara has me in that light stun and mixes a heavy into it thatís when they pay for it so its a shame you canít practice against solely light spam. But this also doesnít play into the whole being online with 7 other players either. Training is one thing, a game of dominion is something quite different. While I can block a bunch in training, online it just doesnít happen. It was good to see that ping times were up too, definitely not a connection thing on my end, fastest times all night.

Back to training - as a raider however, again no problems. Block everything. Let the initial hit or even a couple hits through and I can still block second, third attacks, mixups or only lights whatever. Parry 2nd or third attacks - you can see them coming. Ara becomes a play thing... almost too much of a play thing if Iím honest. Orochi just canít take the heat, and definitely canít afford the damage. Deflects did work nicely too (I stopped deflecting since the first couple days I played against ara as it ended in a trade and ara kept going, it now definitely gets the deflect attack in there first) but it isnít worth the trade off if missing is going to chew half your health or more. The consistency bugs me to no end - as orochi I know that I will not consistently be able to block it where I know I can and am with half the roster. Thatís kinda rubbish... and the ďwow wow wow thanksĒ and emote spam that comes after a player gets beat and comes back as ara tells me the community knows it too.

Knight_Raime
04-20-2018, 09:50 PM
I will say it feels better than it did, in training I had a good go tonight and blocked a lot as orochi. However, unless I’m mistaken you can’t get the bot to simply drop lights and not mixup heavies into it - it’s just what the move says on the box. I thought maybe they’d have it in the presets too but... nada. It’s definitely a widely used online strat!

When I play 4v4, if ara has me in that light stun and mixes a heavy into it that’s when they pay for it so its a shame you can’t practice against solely light spam. But this also doesn’t play into the whole being online with 7 other players either. Training is one thing, a game of dominion is something quite different. While I can block a bunch in training, online it just doesn’t happen. It was good to see that ping times were up too, definitely not a connection thing on my end, fastest times all night.

Back to training - as a raider however, again no problems. Block everything. Let the initial hit or even a couple hits through and I can still block second, third attacks, mixups or only lights whatever. Parry 2nd or third attacks - you can see them coming. Ara becomes a play thing... almost too much of a play thing if I’m honest. Orochi just can’t take the heat, and definitely can’t afford the damage. Deflects did work nicely too (I stopped deflecting since the first couple days I played against ara as it ended in a trade and ara kept going, it now definitely gets the deflect attack in there first) but it isn’t worth the trade off if missing is going to chew half your health or more. The consistency bugs me to no end - as orochi I know that I will not consistently be able to block it where I know I can and am with half the roster. That’s kinda rubbish... and the “wow wow wow thanks” and emote spam that comes after a player gets beat and comes back as ara tells me the community knows it too.

I did some testing of my own. and if you wish to see everything i've tested Check out my "patch impressions" thread.
But TLDR it's now possible to 100% block the follow up light wether you block his first hit or eat it if you were in the start up of your stance switch animation. The farther in the switch animation you're in the more difficult it becomes to block the follow up. Animation queing isn't gone but they did some what lessen it's effects from what I can tell from an hour or so in arena.