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BadBOO17
04-04-2018, 08:55 AM
Ive noticed while fighting kenseiís in dominion that the only attacks they throw out are the dodge heavy attacks making it pretty hard to actually be aggressive against them. Even after you parry that attack a few times kensei players stand by that move religiously and spam that hell out of it. Ive stopped trying to throw attacks at kensei users and just let them get parried to death off that move. I thought they reworked kensei but i havent see anything different from him.

Kelson27
04-04-2018, 08:59 AM
Heís actually capable of quite a lot now, unfortunately that seems to be the safe and spammable attack they get away with in 4v4.

Vakris_One
04-04-2018, 02:57 PM
He's always been able to be played like that in 4v4s or even in 1v1s by low skilled players who only do spam. You're probably seeing the "bandwagoners" who only picked up Kensei because he's the current flavour of the month, which they think will give them free wins. Same type of players that picked up Centurion, Shinobi, Gladiator and Shaman when they just came out because they thought the class will do all the work for them.

Enjoy tearing them apart via parries, they'll either learn how to use more of the Kensei's kit or move on to whatever character they think will give them easy wins.

BadBOO17
04-04-2018, 06:33 PM
I always send these kensei spammers little messages at the end of games warning them about how easy it is to parry them when they only have 2 moves but they never seem to care about it.

NHLGoldenKnight
04-04-2018, 08:06 PM
I have to admit, that is how I easily defeat most of players in 4v4. It was easy for the most part, plus inconsistencies when blocking Kensei attacks and that is way I won't be playing Kensei for some time. Too easy compared to my other heroes.

Also, because of his reach, it is very hard do get away from dodge attacks. Maybe not a popular opinion, but being a Vanguard, he didn't really needed dodge attack . It would be difficult with the weapon he is using and the fact is that he is the only hero in it's class that can do that which makes no sense considering the fact that longsword would be more practical for that type of attack.

DoodTheMan
04-04-2018, 09:46 PM
Literally watched a Kensei beat my team 1v3 while he only used his dodge attack. In fact, that Kensei used just the dodge attack for that whole game. Like, okay spamming is bad, but at some point it's on you for not at least being able to block it right?

Vrbas1
04-05-2018, 05:29 AM
His dodge attack you speak of possesses the property of "invincibility frames". That is to say, doesn't matter what the f**** you throw at him or how sweeping your attack may be, it's gonna pass through his happy @$$ like he's nightcrawlered into an alternate dimension during your attack to reappear nanoseconds later and punish you for not being an X-men.

Tirik22x
04-05-2018, 06:48 AM
His dodge attack you speak of possesses the property of "invincibility frames". That is to say, doesn't matter what the f**** you throw at him or how sweeping your attack may be, it's gonna pass through his happy @$$ like he's nightcrawlered into an alternate dimension during your attack to reappear nanoseconds later and punish you for not being an X-men.

Lol

SpaceJim12
04-05-2018, 09:50 AM
He's always been able to be played like that in 4v4s or even in 1v1s by low skilled players who only do spam.

But past days this attack were light. Now it's heavy and with 180 gear stats deal a way more damage. Tried Kensei in Dominion and should say I could kills shamans and 2-3 opponents just spamming this move.


Enjoy tearing them apart via parries, they'll either learn how to use more of the Kensei's kit or move on to whatever character they think will give them easy wins.

But problem is that Kensei now REALLY give you easy win. Maybe it's just me, but I win 4 matches with Kensei, got 12-20 kills each and feel no hard to crush everyone. And that was my first attempt play Kensei since season 1. I did't do something special, but just lights, dodge heavy and his zone. And I see only two full turtle guys who really could do something with his dodge heavy.

KitingFatKidsEZ
04-05-2018, 10:51 AM
Literally watched a Kensei beat my team 1v3 while he only used his dodge attack. In fact, that Kensei used just the dodge attack for that whole game. Like, okay spamming is bad, but at some point it's on you for not at least being able to block it right?

its literally the easiest to parry attack in the game

top10 gitgud threads of 2018 right here

Vakris_One
04-05-2018, 02:49 PM
But past days this attack were light. Now it's heavy and with 180 gear stats deal a way more damage. Tried Kensei in Dominion and should say I could kills shamans and 2-3 opponents just spamming this move.
His damage was not changed at all, it still does 20 damage like before. Stamina use was increased to 12 (from 6) and his recovery speed was made into a heavy recovery. Prior to his rework I still killed small villages of Shamans and any other gank teams inexperienced enough to let me dodge strike spam them repeatedly in Dominion. These players would have died to you pre-Season 5 in the exact same way.



But problem is that Kensei now REALLY give you easy win. Maybe it's just me, but I win 4 matches with Kensei, got 12-20 kills each and feel no hard to crush everyone. And that was my first attempt play Kensei since season 1. I did't do something special, but just lights, dodge heavy and his zone. And I see only two full turtle guys who really could do something with his dodge heavy.
Depends heavily on what matchmaking bracket you are playing in. Kensei has always been a noob stomper and if players are falling to you from his slow side lights from neutral and telegraphed dodge strikes then they are either low skilled or inexperienced at fighting a Kensei.

Even before his rework the Kensei always thrived as a counter attacker - he feeds off of how aggressive his opponent is. The more aggressive his opponent the better for the Kensei. Kensei's problem was that he couldn't go aggressive against anyone because everything he threw out was parry bait and he had no openers to crack turtles. Thus why the turtle meta rendered him obsolete and why he needed a rework.

Countering, baiting and playing tactically against a Kensei is how you should fight a Kensei, not by going full aggro on him. He is strong against overly aggressive play and weak against more defensively minded play. As you yourself note, the guys who played more defensively had a better time against you. Too many players think they can get away with trying to go non-stop aggressive against a Kensei, I see it all the time in Dominion from casual and inexperienced players. They think "the unblockable meta will win this for me" and seem to forget to engage the tactical part of their brain. The fact is this has never been the way to fight a Kensei and these types of players have been dying to Kensei's in Dominion since Season 1.

Now he has a soft feint mind game starting immediately from neutral and a dangerous zone - made somewhat unfair because it slides him forward by a lot. Minus the forward slide from his zone these aren't some kind of unfair, never before seen attacks and strategies. A lot of players are simply either too lazy or too self entitled to adapt an appropriate approach outside of their comfort zone which seems to be "throw super fast lights and unblockables and hope for the best." Everybody else has already or will eventually get used to what he can do and how to fight against him efficiently.

XJadeDragoonX
04-05-2018, 03:40 PM
Seems like you're alone on this one Vakris lol. But realistically, parrying the attack isn't enough. You get a free light. Which I feel is pretty inconsequential. You can get around 15-20 damage where if you mess up, you take 20 damage and get inserted into his combo of doom with infinite mixup potential. Also, parrying it can be difficult because you can delay the activation of the attack so it messes up people's muscle memory. Shaman, orochi, berserker, pk, etc have the same activation time on their side dash attacks basically every time. So it's easy. Kensei, not so much. He just has too much. But realistically we all know the devs are gonna do something about it eventually. It's just an over tuned move on a character who already has everything. They should scale his damage down across the board overall if you ask me. His side heavies shouldnt do 40 damage and his lights shouldn't do 20. I play at a high level. I'm not saying kensei is unstoppable. But it's just too much you have to worry about. I played a game as my under rep 1 kensei last night and went 17-2 in Dominion. With minimal effort. I took advantage or his entire kit and not just his side dash attack. I was running through people like it was my job. It's just too easy that it isn't even fun.

Out of neutral he has his zone, his top light, his side dash, his top heavy soft feints. And that's just out of neutral. He has mixups out of just about everything. You never know what he's gonna do. He's the most unpredictable character in the game. Hes not a vanguard anymore. He's a hybrid. The speed and damage of an assassin. The hyper armor of a heavy. The utility of a vanguard. Everything. It's ok to nerf his damage. He will still be really good.

SpaceJim12
04-05-2018, 04:34 PM
Depends heavily on what matchmaking bracket you are playing in. Kensei has always been a noob stomper and if players are falling to you from his slow side lights from neutral and telegraphed dodge strikes then they are either low skilled or inexperienced at fighting a Kensei.

Well, your words make sense. Still there are a lot of "but"...
Some players where quite high with their rep. One Raider 110 rep overall and 32 rep with his char. And everyone clearly have better gear, than my Kensei. So still hard to believe they all were noobs or don't know how to play agains Kensei.
But I'll keep your words in mind and try to level up Kensei at least to rep 2 and see how things gonna go.

I do not try to say Kensei is OP or something, but for me it's really easier to play on him now. Before season five I barely can kill people on Kensei and this kind of difference make me little confused.

Vakris_One
04-05-2018, 05:15 PM
Seems like you're alone on this one Vakris lol. But realistically, parrying the attack isn't enough. You get a free light. Which I feel is pretty inconsequential. You can get around 15-20 damage where if you mess up, you take 20 damage and get inserted into his combo of doom with infinite mixup potential. Also, parrying it can be difficult because you can delay the activation of the attack so it messes up people's muscle memory. Shaman, orochi, berserker, pk, etc have the same activation time on their side dash attacks basically every time. So it's easy. Kensei, not so much. He just has too much. But realistically we all know the devs are gonna do something about it eventually. It's just an over tuned move on a character who already has everything. They should scale his damage down across the board overall if you ask me. His side heavies shouldnt do 40 damage and his lights shouldn't do 20. I play at a high level. I'm not saying kensei is unstoppable. But it's just too much you have to worry about. I played a game as my under rep 1 kensei last night and went 17-2 in Dominion. With minimal effort. I took advantage or his entire kit and not just his side dash attack. I was running through people like it was my job. It's just too easy that it isn't even fun.

Out of neutral he has his zone, his top light, his side dash, his top heavy soft feints. And that's just out of neutral. He has mixups out of just about everything. You never know what he's gonna do. He's the most unpredictable character in the game. Hes not a vanguard anymore. He's a hybrid. The speed and damage of an assassin. The hyper armor of a heavy. The utility of a vanguard. Everything. It's ok to nerf his damage. He will still be really good.
You're starting to sound like someone who's just stereotypically bitter with hyperbolic statements like "infinite mixup potential" for a chain finisher move Kensei has always had and outright fake news statements like "a character that has everything". Last I checked he didn't suddenly get gifted every super safe move in the game.

I get it man, Kensei is slightly harder on console but let's steer clear of making false assumptions that everyone has a problem fighting Kensei just because you seem to or because you frequently stomp inexperienced or lower skilled players with him - players who obviously are less inexperienced or less skilled if they allow you to steam roll them so easily. I mean statements like "I went 17-2 in Dominion last night" mean very little as far as I'm concerned. I've had streaks where I went 20-1, 18-3, 16-0, 19-2 and that was in Season 4 when the almighty OP Shaman and Aramusha gank squads were supposedly scheduled to bring forth the Apocalypse. I don't use that to assume that the character is OP, all it means is that I had some good games or I was facing lower skilled players than me or a combo of both.

It is only your opinion that Kensei is the most unpredictable or jack of all trades character in the game. Other people, like me, disagree because to us he isn't especially unpredictable. He just has options that means he is a strong opponent, but not an unfair or impossible one. Opinions based on experience. Everybody's got them. The devs will decide what to tweak about him and I am happy for them to make those decisions since they pool their data from the top 2% of players - players more skilled and knowledgeable about character kits, matchups and balancing than either one of us.

They could revert him straight back to what he was prior to Season 5 and I would still play him while playing with other characters that I like as well. All I want is for players to make informed, logical and honest arguments rather than emotionally driven ones or ones born out of not understanding something about the kit or a character's matchups. To that end I will continue to give my 2 cents worth about characters that I know a lot about.

XJadeDragoonX
04-05-2018, 05:34 PM
I'm not bitter. Idk why you need to say something like that. I'm just coming to the topic with valid points. You can disagree but don't call me bitter. It's not productive. My argument isn't emotionally driven. I feel I gave pretty solid examples that are unbiased. Even said I don't truly struggle against the kensei. I understand their kit and am fully capable of combating them. But too strong is too strong regardless of how you look at it. I don't struggle against pk much but that doesn't change that they're the highest winrate character does it? Of course not. It just is what it is. And when I mentioned going 17-2 I mentioned that as being significant because I play at a high level against other high level players. My kensei isn't even rep 1 and I was facing max gear characters with my gear score at 0. So I don't have gear to assist me AND I'm not an expert with the character that's why it is significant. I do it with my berserker all the time. But with a character I've never really used? That's a big deal. I could do that with my other under rep 1 characters like shugoki or aramusha or gladiator. And trust me I've tried. But with kensei it was painfully easy.

Let me ask you. Do you think that nerfing his side dash attack would make him garbage? Just make it so you can't delay it's activation. I'm fine with it doing 20 damage. Its a heavy. That's streamline with shaman dash attack. But it should be less flexible. Remove the superior block on it.

Do you think lowering his 20 damage lights to maybe 17 and his heavies from 40 to 30 or 35 would make him bad? I don't. He does the damage of the raider or Highlander while being faster and having more options.

His overhead heavy still does 45 damage and is guaranteed on wall splat. I believe that's the highest damage wall splat that can be done at any wallsplat range. Raider and highlander can get their top heavy but you have to be pretty far from the wall so it's more situational. His soft feints take virtually no stamina. I think you can feint out of his unblockable 4 times without running out of stamina. That's if you light into unblockable into top light into unblockable into light unblockable etc. He would still be very strong if his damage numbers were slightly reduced and streamlines. Kensei is a great character and is pretty close to where he should be. But he was just a little over tuned. Bring a few numbers down and mess with his activation time on dash attack. That's minimal. And with gear, he will do the same damage anyway.

But you know what? I like you. You're passionate about your character and that's a good thing. You usually leave constructive criticism for the most part. Just don't come at me with that nonsense. I have nothing against you so there's no need. Sorry if I'm supporting nerfing your main a little, but my main is berserker. We both know what it's like to be on the bottom. And I'm fine where my character is now. If they wanna remove his hyper armor on loghts, I could care less because it's inconsistent sequential. Just like how I think these minor changes to kensei are. They wouldn't change much. Just bring him down to balanced.

Vakris_One
04-05-2018, 05:41 PM
Well, your words make sense. Still there are a lot of "but"...
Some players where quite high with their rep. One Raider 110 rep overall and 32 rep with his char. And everyone clearly have better gear, than my Kensei. So still hard to believe they all were noobs or don't know how to play agains Kensei.
But I'll keep your words in mind and try to level up Kensei at least to rep 2 and see how things gonna go.

I do not try to say Kensei is OP or something, but for me it's really easier to play on him now. Before season five I barely can kill people on Kensei and this kind of difference make me little confused.
Keep in mind rep level isn't the only factor in matchmaking nor does it necessarilly represent skill, only overall time spent playing. Not to mention there are long time players that take breaks away from the game and come back. Coming back to find a Kensei you're not used to fighting will of course mean you can get stomped.

Considering that Kensei was second to last in the dev's hero chart in 1v1s and around the middle in 4v4s I'm not surprised he is easier to play now than before because well, he is. His rework gave him more options to a variety of situations, which even if you only decide to use 3 moves still leaves certain opponents wondering when you'll use the other moves. Generally speaking the pattern in For Honor's hero kits goes: more options means easier to use, less options means harder to use because of the rock, paper, scissors style approach to character matchups. That's excluding individual skill levels of course.

Kensei is definitely easier to use now than before, just like most A-tier characters are generally easier to use than C-tier characters and Kensei jumped from C to A tier with his rework. It doesn't automatically mean he's too powerful now just because he is easier to do well with though, i.e. you don't have to spend months perfecting your technique with him just to get some wins as was the case with him during the height of the defensive meta. In my opinion apart from adjusting blatantly screwy things like his zone sliding him forward halfway across the Grand Canyon I think they need to finish releasing more of the reworks and then see where things stand.

SpaceJim12
04-05-2018, 05:47 PM
Keep in mind rep level isn't the only factor in matchmaking nor does it necessarillg represent skill, only overall time spent playing. Not to mention there are long time players that take breaks away from the game and come back. Coming back to find a Kensei you're not used to fighting will of course mean you can get stomped.

Yeah, I now rep doesn't mean skill, but still want to hope ppl who played a lot on some chars know what they doing.=)
As I say, I'll keep level up Kensei to see, what will happen.


I think they need to finish releasing more of the reworks and then see where things stand

More reworks, but not like Bers reworks, please.

NHLGoldenKnight
04-05-2018, 05:48 PM
There is a weird issue when trying to block Kensei. Sometimes you block, and still get hit. And there is already another topic about that and luckily, I am not the only one experiencing it.

Also, whenever I struggle, i pick Kensei and guess what? I cut through other players like knife through the butter, with barely anyone blocking or trying to parry. There is definitely inconsistency when it comes to fighting Kensei and I can't figure it out. Obviously, so can't many of other mainstream or casual players.

However, my issue with him is not damage he does. Nodachi ( assuming that is his weapon) would be devastating at cutting. However, my issue with Kensei is dodge attack. He shouldn't have it, period. As a Vanguard and someone who is wielding sword which is 70cm or more in length, it would be hardly possible. Even if it would be practical, damage would be much lower since not enough strength could be put into attack itself. Kensei having dodge attack is almost the same as giving Warden or even Highlander same option.

But I have to admit, Kensei is nothing compared to issues I really have with balancing. We have completely broken heroes such as disgusting Centurion, we have heroes who shouldn't be in the game such as cowardly Shinobi, we have developers being bias towards Vikings which has resulted in liberal idea of strong female character such as Shaman ,Berserker has ridiculous Hyperarmor and can kill in 2 swings, we have Aramusha which is a one button cancer on a console and not to mention Gladiator with more unblockables than regular attacks and in general, overpowered assasin class.

So in these circumstances, I can still live with Kensei. For now.

Vakris_One
04-05-2018, 06:35 PM
I'm not bitter. Idk why you need to say something like that. I'm just coming to the topic with valid points. You can disagree but don't call me bitter. It's not productive.
Likewise man, I came to the topic with valid points and then you come in after me and open with, "Seems like you're alone on this one Vakris, lol." which is needlessly condescending and provocational.

Disagree with me, by all means but please don't condescend to me and then certainly don't tell me that I'm being the unproductive one simply when I returned the favour based on your initial tone towards me. If we can find an understing there then maybe we can have conversations without needlessly rubbing each other the wrong way.



My argument isn't emotionally driven. I feel I gave pretty solid examples that are unbiased. Even said I don't truly struggle against the kensei. I understand their kit and am fully capable of combating them. But too strong is too strong regardless of how you look at it. I don't struggle against pk much but that doesn't change that they're the highest winrate character does it? Of course not. It just is what it is. And when I mentioned going 17-2 I mentioned that as being significant because I play at a high level against other high level players. My kensei isn't even rep 1 and I was facing max gear characters with my gear score at 0. So I don't have gear to assist me AND I'm not an expert with the character that's why it is significant. I do it with my berserker all the time. But with a character I've never really used? That's a big deal. I could do that with my other under rep 1 characters like shugoki or aramusha or gladiator. And trust me I've tried. But with kensei it was painfully easy.
And I did that with PK mid Season 3 even though I had just picked her up. I did that with Highlander at the start of Season 3. I did that with Aramusha at the start of Season 4. I started doing this with Shugoki even though I never played him at all prior to Season 5. 0 rep, 0 gear score and I was amazed at how easily I dismantled rep 100+ players, some of them using their rep 40 (gear 180) mains. I know that Shugoki isn't OP and yet I could crush these high rep players. I actually don't want them to fundamentally change Shugoki now because I grew to like his playstyle.

Is winning like this with characters I never played before a big deal to me? Yes. Is it a big deal in terms of the overal character balancing? I don't feel like it is because my experiences are not reflected at the highest levels of play, but that's just my opinion.



Let me ask you. Do you think that nerfing his side dash attack would make him garbage? Just make it so you can't delay it's activation. I'm fine with it doing 20 damage. Its a heavy. That's streamline with shaman dash attack. But it should be less flexible. Remove the superior block on it.
No, I'd be fine with that. He never needed delayed activation, not sure why they gave him it even though I disagree with all the forum salt about it being crazy useful.



Do you think lowering his 20 damage lights to maybe 17 and his heavies from 40 to 30 or 35 would make him bad? I don't. He does the damage of the raider or Highlander while being faster and having more options.
Highlander does more damage actually based on the fact he can guarrantee it via stunlock from kick or grab. Raider, I would wait until his rework before using him as a credible benchmark as to where he, Warden and Kensei stand in terms of the Vanguards.

Kensei only does 20 from his top light. His other lights have standard damage for light attacks so no, he doesn't need his light damage nerfed since they are still some of the slowest lights in the game. 40 damage should stay on his 1st side heavy and something like 35-37 for his 2nd and 3rd chained side heavies. His top unblockable heavy finisher is fine damage-wise, it's supposed to hurt. If anything I think they should bring back Zerker's top heavy unblockable damage up to around 42 since these slow moves should hurt.



His overhead heavy still does 45 damage and is guaranteed on wall splat. I believe that's the highest damage wall splat that can be done at any wallsplat range. Raider and highlander can get their top heavy but you have to be pretty far from the wall so it's more situational. His soft feints take virtually no stamina. I think you can feint out of his unblockable 4 times without running out of stamina. That's if you light into unblockable into top light into unblockable into light unblockable etc. He would still be very strong if his damage numbers were slightly reduced and streamlines. Kensei is a great character and is pretty close to where he should be. But he was just a little over tuned. Bring a few numbers down and mess with his activation time on dash attack. That's minimal. And with gear, he will do the same damage anyway.

But you know what? I like you. You're passionate about your character and that's a good thing. You usually leave constructive criticism for the most part. Just don't come at me with that nonsense. I have nothing against you so there's no need. Sorry if I'm supporting nerfing your main a little, but my main is berserker. We both know what it's like to be on the bottom. And I'm fine where my character is now. If they wanna remove his hyper armor on loghts, I could care less because it's inconsistent sequential. Just like how I think these minor changes to kensei are. They wouldn't change much. Just bring him down to balanced.
Well as I said up top, when I read something that sounds as if the person is talking down to me I respond in kind. It may not have been your intention but that's how it read.

I already think the Kensei came out the most balanced of the 3 major reworks with Zerk being a little overtuned in terms of whipping out a 400ms light from a soft feint and Conq being too oppressive in both offense and defence. That being said I definitely don't have a problem with suggested tweaks on him as long as they are reasonable like the ones you suggested above.