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blackpulpit1970
10-18-2005, 07:34 AM
Ok this is not meant for whining iam at work and just would like to no how the new fm fixes and changes are and if they are very pronounced or not. Just would like to no a little info on what you all think that have D/L the patch. thanks

blackpulpit1970
10-18-2005, 07:34 AM
Ok this is not meant for whining iam at work and just would like to no how the new fm fixes and changes are and if they are very pronounced or not. Just would like to no a little info on what you all think that have D/L the patch. thanks

BaldieJr
10-18-2005, 07:42 AM
New FM = girlie.

SlickStick
10-18-2005, 07:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BaldieJr:
New FM = girlie. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Has it really changed that much, Baldie? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

tplynn
10-18-2005, 07:51 AM
It needs to chagned, 4.01 sucked. I've been playing 3.04 since that last so called patch. Semper Fi

BaldieJr
10-18-2005, 08:00 AM
Its weak. FS2004 has a harder FM now.

I double-dog dare someone to add I-153s to thier dogfight server. No, I triple-dog dare ya!

BBB_Hyperion
10-18-2005, 08:03 AM
Suggest "The Return of the Arcade Aces" as unoffical patch name .)

F19_Orheim
10-18-2005, 08:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BaldieJr:
Its weak. FS2004 has a harder FM now.

I double-dog dare someone to add I-153s to thier dogfight server. No, I triple-dog dare ya! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Baldie mate, as it always was.. we all love that little devil http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
M62 version should be more challenging, the cannons of the "P" was always too nice hehe

arcadeace
10-18-2005, 08:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
Suggest "The Return of the Arcade Aces" as unoffical patch name .) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suggest anything else http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

VVS-Manuc
10-18-2005, 08:16 AM
FM red planes: UFOs running on rails
FM blue planes: instable wobbling brickstones
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...just a joke http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

ImpStarDuece
10-18-2005, 08:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
Suggest "The Return of the Arcade Aces" as unoffical patch name .) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Suggest, "The Official Ignore HayateAce Patch" as the unofficial patch name http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WOLFMondo
10-18-2005, 09:17 AM
New P47D = Clown wagon. Seen a Spit looping 3 times in a row at 400kph?..well the P47 now can. Still wobbles a bit but my old favorite is now my no.1 laughing target.

Roll rates on some planes have changed. 190's roll faster at high speeds as does the clipped Spit.

.50's are just a joke now. I fear them more than 108's or Hispano's.

Not really seen a change elsewhere.

F16_Neo
10-18-2005, 09:20 AM
Anyone else noticed ground-effect? Or am I imagining things again?

SlickStick
10-18-2005, 09:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
Roll rates on some planes have changed. 190's roll faster at high speeds as does the clipped Spit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good to hear. Since V4.01, I had thought that the roll rate was reduced across the board and was a bit too slow on Anton FWs, Ki-84s and clipped-wing Spits. I look forward to testing tonight. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

The new P-47D is fast I hear and guns are quite lethal.

J_Weaver
10-18-2005, 09:22 AM
The readme mentioned that the ground effect had been adjusted.

F19_Ob
10-18-2005, 09:24 AM
Patch doesn't seem available. Perhaps u guys have a leaked unfinished one?

WOLFMondo
10-18-2005, 09:30 AM
I hope so.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:

The new P-47D is fast I hear and guns are quite lethal. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tried them out P47 vs P47, 1 quick snap shot, not more than a quarter second on target took the P47's engine out. .50's are ridiculous now. I hoped this patch was a RC at first.

major_setback
10-18-2005, 09:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Ob:
Patch doesn't seem available. Perhaps u guys have a leaked unfinished one? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look at the main page of this site and go to 'game updates', that's where everyone got the bad patch!

Jumoschwanz
10-18-2005, 09:38 AM
The 109 seems about the same as before to me, except the new gyro effect makes it more of a handful at slow aerobatics, under 200 km/hr. Solution: don't go that slow in battle!
Those flying the 109 at stall speed with or without manual prop pitch will have to re-learn a bit of the craft. You can still use manual pitch on the 109, and still blow the motor really easy.

Finally the 109 with the dual 20mm gunpods feels heavier and handles worse, as it should. Before it would almost fly as if it had no additional weight at all.

The lagg3 seems to have the same new low speed characteristics as the 109, you can now stall these planes out and get into some spins, and it is harder to recover.

Yesterday I flew a dozen 1 vs 1 missions with a really good virtual pilot from Russia on HL. We kept it 1942 planes, so it was 109g2 vs. Lagg3, la-5 and yak1b. The Russian pilot, who did like his Russian craft, said there was no perceptible change in the La-5.

I did some testing on plane speeds on the same courses I used to test on the last two patches. The 109 seems unaffected as far as low altitude speed and acceleration goes.
The new P-47 is a little better accelerating than the D-27, and 10km/hr faster at low alt.

In the intense 1 vs 1 missions flown on HL last night, there were no problems in the new FM that could not be overcome with a little bit of finesse.

I am glad of all the reports of the .50 calibre on the allied craft being so much better.

New patches never have any effect on the performance of the really good online pilots who fly realistic servers online, they have always done well through every patch in the last four-plus years, and this patch will be no different, it will be a non-event for them.

IT is always nice to have additions and improvements in the sim and FM that move the realistic setting closer to realism. The added gyro effects are a fun new addition to study and play with and learn to deal with.

Thanks Oleg and Co.


Jumoschwanz

ColoradoBBQ
10-18-2005, 09:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
I hope so.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:

The new P-47D is fast I hear and guns are quite lethal. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tried them out P47 vs P47, 1 quick snap shot, not more than a quarter second on target took the P47's engine out. .50's are ridiculous now. I hoped this patch was a RC at first. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The P-47 engine was always weak against any guns. Nothing new there.

SeaFireLIV
10-18-2005, 09:53 AM
Not noticed much difference in FM except take off felt a little easier, actual flight seems the same. But I`ve only flown the I16 so far.

What I HAVE noticed is that 109s are easier to catch. On two separate occasions I found myself chasing a 109-F4 in my I16... Normally, I`d never catch them, but to my surprise I was keeping up, although my engine started overheating and I backed off. On the second occasion I did catch up (while he was being chased by Biplanes).

They seem slower now. Not sure if this is a good thing.

I`ve also noticed that a couple of hits to a 109`s wing (at least the F-4) does not instantly cause the 109 to crash. I hit this 109 many times and while my aiming was off it would usually take a couple of hits to his wing for him to auger in. He flew on for ages, evading, while smoking, until he finally lost height and hit the trees - this is good.

LEBillfish
10-18-2005, 10:35 AM
Just have done a QMB with the Ki-61-Ko......They correctly deleted rudder trim http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif sad but correct and naturally didn't fix any of the other problems with it......

But as to FM there seems to be no stall, barely touch the stick and it lurches in that direction. Though you may decelerate it feels like you lost no E and don't have to recoup it.....It's actually much harder to aim because it is so twitchy......Seriously, give it a touch of any control input and the result is much what you see Dr1's or F15's do.....Instant snap and roll.


To me with just a couple minutes testing it feels as though we regressed back a number of patches....As though the awesome 4.01 Bob FM was tossed out, then all effects reduced....and we went full Arcade.

Hate to say it, and you know I'm a "fangoil", but this feels like a huge step backward (though am no pilot or expert so just how I would imagine it to be).

Ah well http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
10-18-2005, 10:53 AM
Some observations:

The .50 ROF does appear to have been increased (as pointed out by Wolfmondo) and this would, at first, appear to be a reasonable compromise if Oleg couldn't unsync the guns easily. So, we are now able to hit in deflection shots better (good) but we are also able to put a lot more lead into the same spot on a stable target (bad). Time will tell whether this is realistic or not.

.50 strength? Difficult to tell with the above effect. In a co-op last night, I shot down 6 heavy bombers and 1 Stuka in a P47D...and that was firing at range to avoid the gunners (who, incidentally, appeared to be less accurate). Whether that is realistic or not, I don't know, but I'm not sure I could do that in 4.01.


FM? Seems more arcade-ish with less of the intertia effect. "I have a friend that" told me that 4.02 beta 2 felt a bit odd in the intertia department (seemed tighter and more damped but still present) whereas 4.02 appears to have dispensed with it.

Tracers? Has ship AAA had some tracers removed? I attacked a ship with a 190 in a co-op last night and lost a wing for seemingly no apparent reason. Either that or they mixed up the wing DM with the old 190 gunsight DM http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It's too early yet so I'll reserve complete judgement but...

Ta,
Norris

MEGILE
10-18-2005, 10:57 AM
the TA-152 took some steroids.

TheGozr
10-18-2005, 11:02 AM
I have to agree with many.

The yak9U in teh 401 was very close to reality on take off and landing, In real life as the yak3 it is very easy to bent a prop. Now it's back to 304 style easYY.
The cockpit effect is great.
New clouds style is cool.
The boucing at speed "ala Scessna" is very unlikly in 1500+ hp machines very rediculous.

Until everyone anderstand that you don't fix a patch robbing Oleg's back.
The truth or result should be adressed seriouly and hold back on your very typical 1000's thanks. Cut the BS.

It always feel like what i say it's a bit raw buit i can't find the good explesit words in english but i hope you get the idea.

Herustic_Algor
10-18-2005, 11:03 AM
Planes fly like real now. I don't agree with Billfish on stalls. And get some rudder pedals now people and go fly a real plane also and then comment on 4.02

TheGozr
10-18-2005, 11:05 AM
Actually Herustic we fly in RL, That why we can comment. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

crazyivan1970
10-18-2005, 11:05 AM
That`s whole alot of thoughts after 1 hour of flying lol

GBrutus
10-18-2005, 11:05 AM
Only had a brief flight in a couple of aircraft but it doesn't seem too bad. I don't think any major changes have been applied to the FM, just tweaks here and there. There does seem to be more emphasis on roll behavior, especially when flaps are deployed.

I'll need to test out a few more planes to get a better feel for the changes but I like it so far. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TheGozr
10-18-2005, 11:06 AM
crazyivan1970 one hour of flying for some only http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

crazyivan1970
10-18-2005, 11:07 AM
I`m aware of that GOZR http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Slechtvalk
10-18-2005, 11:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
But as to FM there seems to be no stall, barely touch the stick and it lurches in that direction. Though you may decelerate it feels like you lost no E and don't have to recoup it.....It's actually much harder to aim because it is so twitchy......Seriously, give it a touch of any control input and the result is much what you see Dr1's or F15's do.....Instant snap and roll.


To me with just a couple minutes testing it feels as though we regressed back a number of patches....As though the awesome 4.01 Bob FM was tossed out, then all effects reduced....and we went full Arcade.

Hate to say it, and you know I'm a "fangoil", but this feels like a huge step backward (though am no pilot or expert so just how I would imagine it to be).

Ah well http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

True.
Only flew the early spit and thought the same. I don't get it though that they change FM so much compared with previous. How could they so wrong before I think?

I only excepted minor tweaks.

But thanks for the patch! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

anarchy52
10-18-2005, 11:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
On two separate occasions I found myself chasing a 109-F4 in my I16... Normally, I`d never catch them, but to my surprise I was keeping up...
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

UGH...hope it's just an AI thing. I-16 shouldn't be in the same country as 109F much less the same league...

NorrisMcWhirter
10-18-2005, 11:39 AM
I just tried an I16 vs Emil in QMB @3k. I couldn't catch the veteran Emils but that didn't matter as I could still laser them from 700m (as per usual).

What surprised me was the I16 stall. An Emil shot my stabiliser off (all of it) and I could put it into a spin then recover within about 2 seconds.

Then I tried an I153 - what a UFO! Emils were getting bagged left, right and centre.

I couldn't put anything into a spin that I couldn't get out of easily.

Ta,
Norris

gx-warspite
10-18-2005, 11:47 AM
I-153 is so much fun.

I took down 16 Veteran Gladiators with one without dying, using only the unlimited ammo cheat.

I'll have to use the cannon version with limited ammo and see if I can replicate the feat.

woofiedog
10-18-2005, 11:54 AM
Love the New P-47D... Great Flier up High! Just went up againest some Me-109 G10's with QMB and it Kicks A$$.

VFA-25_Kosh
10-18-2005, 12:26 PM
The most significant and perceptible change to the FM is the removal of the insane engine torque roll over. In 4.01 certain planes would behave just down stupidly. Spits would flip upside down to the left (engine torque) at pretty much any speed if I pulled on the stick to sharply. At slower speeds it was a throttle balancing game between flip to the left and flip to the right. Felt like walking a knife edge. Now the Spits just stall to the right when the speed is bled off. Interesting question to answer is, which is the dominant turning side for a given plane? Spits used to be to the left, Yaks to the right, but now it seems almost the opposite.

Tater-SW-
10-18-2005, 12:34 PM
On the plus side, the (AI) A-20G will now parafrag decently, if not historically low. Tried default 500m alt (~50 times historical norms for parafrag attacks). The planes put themselves in a shallow dive, then bombed at maybe 50m? They stayed level, too, no barrel rolls! The only downside is that they will only fly in a line astern fromation instead of the line abreast they should attack in.

The B-25s do the same thing, except planes 1-2 will bomb well, and 3 and 4 do barrel rolls.

More testing later.

tater

fordfan25
10-18-2005, 12:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by blackpulpit1970:
Ok this is not meant for whining iam at work and just would like to no how the new fm fixes and changes are and if they are very pronounced or not. Just would like to no a little info on what you all think that have D/L the patch. thanks </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

only compaint i have is it seems for me any way that the planes are even more unstable. its like thay are ballenced on the tip of a pen. just has an odd bobbling motion to them. worse than the p-47 in 4.01. and it seems to have spread. patch 4.01 had it MOSTLY on the US planes now it seems the FW and 109 has it as well. the only planes iv flown so far that doesnt have it is the la-7 and p-38. but i have not flown to many plane yet

fordfan25
10-18-2005, 12:50 PM
one thing i did notice. if you add more fuil to planes the boobling ease's up a bit.

HellToupee
10-18-2005, 01:34 PM
patch fms are about the same methinks, the 109s are still nigh unstallable, just all planes wobble now at slight nudges to controls.

Saunders1953
10-18-2005, 01:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">On the plus side, the (AI) A-20G will now parafrag decently, if not historically low. Tried default 500m alt (~50 times historical norms for parafrag attacks). The planes put themselves in a shallow dive, then bombed at maybe 50m? They stayed level, too, no barrel rolls! The only downside is that they will only fly in a line astern fromation instead of the line abreast they should attack in.

The B-25s do the same thing, except planes 1-2 will bomb well, and 3 and 4 do barrel rolls.

More testing later.

tater </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm....sounds like progress at any rate, Tater. My 'puter had a major crash last night and I'll be out of commission until the weekend--would you (or anyone reading this) like to try having 3 or 4 AI Rufes takeoff from a seaplane base and see if numbers 3 and 4 (and sometimes #2) still ground loop into the water?

Thanks!

RedDeth
10-18-2005, 04:40 PM
methinks wolfmundo is having a bit of patch hysteria and placebo effects all rolled into one. ive done the same before.

its been tested on other threads. the 50s are not firing faster. but supposedly the nose shake is gone. thus more hit.

and as for your jug vs jug mundo.... ive done that many times and if your engine gets hit it stops dead. its a bug in tha jug. its been there all along and aint historical. nothing to do with the new patch

VW-IceFire
10-18-2005, 04:52 PM
Thoughts?

- Mega uber shake on all aircraft
- Many aircraft are incredibly unstable and wobble and flop
- Aircraft feel very much like 3.04 aside from the instability...

4.01 was way better so far....I'm hoping my experience improves but so far precision gunnery is out.

FritzGryphon
10-18-2005, 04:59 PM
Like the readme says, the P factor has been significantly increased. It's the most noticable thing to me.

Pitch up rapidly, and the nose lurches to the right. Pitch down, and the nose lurches to the left (reversed for counter-clockwise props).

Makes hell of aiming. One has to wonder if precession was this severe.

Doug_Thompson
10-18-2005, 05:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm hoping my experience improves but so far precision gunnery is out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not a skilled player. I have NO online flight time.

Last night, (in 4.01) I used a cannon-armed Corsair and brought down a Japanese Betty with a one-second burst in a 70-degree deflection €" from 530 meters. Yes, "realistic gunnery," etc. was on.

That's crazy. I'll install the patch tonight and check it out, but something needed changing.

I routinely hit planes flying away from me in 4.01 at 500 meters when I'm flying a LaGG-3. I can't catch them, so might as well fire. I also accept head-to-head matches all the time in La's, since I can reliably blow up anybody with my cowl-mounted cannons and in "gunsight" mode.

Again, something was wrong. Great marksmen existed among WWII aces, but they were rare.

Tvrdi
10-18-2005, 05:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Thoughts?

- Mega uber shake on all aircraft
- Many aircraft are incredibly unstable and wobble and flop
- Aircraft feel very much like 3.04 aside from the instability...

4.01 was way better so far....I'm hoping my experience improves but so far precision gunnery is out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

same observations here...and as fordfan said "its like they are ballanced on the tip of a pen"....

its worse with every new patch...all I can say is that I noticed that for the first time I barely play this sim...maybe 5-6 hrs in a whole week...and I used to fly 5 hrs every day....everything started with 4.01...betas 4xx were closest to the BoB I guess...well...see ya all in BoB time....I hope...hehe bah

goodbye

FritzGryphon
10-18-2005, 05:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">routinely hit planes flying away from me in 4.01 at 500 meters when I'm flying a LaGG-3. I can't catch them, so might as well fire. I also accept head-to-head matches all the time in La's, since I can reliably blow up anybody with my cowl-mounted cannons and in "gunsight" mode. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Heh, good one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif You must spend a lot of your time out of ammo.

Doug_Thompson
10-18-2005, 05:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FritzGryphon:

Heh, good one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif You must spend a lot of your time out of ammo. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I don't. That's exactly the problem.

Either I'm the long-lost great-grandchild of Buffalo Bill and Annie Oakley, or something is very, very seriously wrong in 4.01.

To clarify, however: I don't PREFER sniping. Shots run out of steam over long distances, and I prefer maximum damage per shot. However, half-kilometer "hail Mary" shots should practically never make contact. In 4.01, they do.

F19_Orheim
10-18-2005, 05:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tvrdi:
...and I used to fly 5 hrs every day....everything started with 4.01...betas 4xx were closest to the BoB I guess...well...see ya all in BoB time....I hope...hehe bah

goodbye </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe a good thing? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif 5 hrs a day... seems.. hrm... a lot.

jds1978
10-18-2005, 05:43 PM
personally i'm pleased...

i just pulled one heckuva ground attack sortie in a F4uD...i don't know what they did w/ the 50.cal, but it's working...i just left okinawa a flaming ruin. i used to have to empty half my ammo into a single stationary plane to get the ground kill. sometimes it required multiple passes to kill one crate on the ground in 4.01.


the new P47 is sweet up high...

there seems to be better explosions and certain gfx efx.

one complaint: tone down the wobble a hair

Bearcat99
10-18-2005, 06:01 PM
One quick thing I have noticed..... the P-51 seems to roll faster the faster you go (to a point anyway then it turns to mush)... which is nice... it also accelerates quicker a tad... I havent lost my wings yet... but I havent tried to either... The Jug seems to dive better.. I can now outdive a 190.. at least in the QM I flew.... thats about it... it is still way too early for any real assessments IMO.... From past experience I like to fly a patch for at least a week before I form any concrete opinions about the quality of "the patch".. but so far I am not displeased.

LeOs.K_Walstein
10-18-2005, 06:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Herustic_Algor:
Planes fly like real now. I don't agree with Billfish on stalls. And get some rudder pedals now people and go fly a real plane also and then comment on 4.02 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I sort of agree with you. But I have to say that I did not understand everyhting what peole have written here. So there might be some agreeable comments there, too!

In the leaked beta version there was a new stall efect. That was a rough movement of the nose when you dropped, say, a Bf-109 down from a steep climb. I think I did not experience this effect now at all. Though I did not expecially try it.

I`m very pleased with this and cannot fully understand chit chat about getting back to "arcade" style!

Wallstein

FlatSpinMan
10-18-2005, 06:50 PM
I only played it for an hour or so but that makes me equally as qualified as anyone else - I thought things were much smoother. I didnt try the spit but I thougth the P51 and P47 were easier to fly, especially when firing. Who knows? Anyway, the patch is the patch so we just make some adjustments and deal with it.

JG53Frankyboy
10-18-2005, 06:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Thoughts?

- Mega uber shake on all aircraft
- Many aircraft are incredibly unstable and wobble and flop
- Aircraft feel very much like 3.04 aside from the instability...

.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i can only second that !

96th_Nightshifter
10-18-2005, 07:17 PM
I'll maybe re-post in about a week or so once I have really tested the new patch but for now I don't see any reason to dislike it. I managed to set a FW on fire in my P51 and I don't mean with multiple passes, I mean on it's 6 with a 2-3 second spray and voila -fire (which was nice).
I didn't notice any wobbly effects as mentioned, in fact the only real change to flight for me is when landing due to the flaps affecting ailerons more now. SO far I like it - sue me.

Lucius_Esox
10-18-2005, 08:27 PM
Having flown the new patch for about an hour online tonight I'm not sure what to think. Fly the Spit 9 excusively coz I'm a sad sack. I like to do this so I can really get to know the plane, fly maybe a couple of hours per day.

I'm not saying I'm an expert, but I AM an expert at knowing what I DO, if you get what I mean. Love coming in from up high and catching a 190/109 as he's is climbing out from an energy attack. Also nice to have enough smash so I can shut the throttle to minimise my engine sound. If you time it right you dont have to worry about to strong dm's etc http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif he's history. Got into the same position several times tonight, up close, hit fire, shots everywhere, except where I wanted em to go.

I'm doing the same thing but hitting a lot lot less. The nose is all over the place. Very frustrating.

I havn't got a clue about what is and isn't realistic, but I do know that tactic pretty well and it was almost foolproof.

Seems as if I have gone from an ok shot to a **** one overnight, sorry, over patch.

Trouble is if I tone down sensitivity of the stick (soemething I admit to not having done before) I lose out on other parts of the flight envelope ??

Maybe its just me!!

Aviar
10-18-2005, 10:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lucius_Esox:
Having flown the new patch for about an hour online tonight I'm not sure what to think. Fly the Spit 9 excusively coz I'm a sad sack. I like to do this so I can really get to know the plane, fly maybe a couple of hours per day.

I'm not saying I'm an expert, but I AM an expert at knowing what I DO, if you get what I mean. Love coming in from up high and catching a 190/109 as he's is climbing out from an energy attack. Also nice to have enough smash so I can shut the throttle to minimise my engine sound. If you time it right you dont have to worry about to strong dm's etc http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif he's history. Got into the same position several times tonight, up close, hit fire, shots everywhere, except where I wanted em to go.

I'm doing the same thing but hitting a lot lot less. The nose is all over the place. Very frustrating.

I havn't got a clue about what is and isn't realistic, but I do know that tactic pretty well and it was almost foolproof.

Seems as if I have gone from an ok shot to a **** one overnight, sorry, over patch.

Trouble is if I tone down sensitivity of the stick (soemething I admit to not having done before) I lose out on other parts of the flight envelope ??

Maybe its just me!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you fly a particular plane every day, you get to know it like the back of your hand. My feeling is that you are probably correct...something has changed.

Personally, I think that the pitch sensitivity has increased, although not by very much. So, your plane may be a little more responsive in the vertical.

I had to adjust my joystick settings to compensate for the change in pitch, but then that's normal procedure for just about all the patches that contain FM changes.

Aviar

Freelancer-1
10-18-2005, 11:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RedDeth:
...its a bug in tha jug. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know why, but that had me ROTFL.

Must be late. Mind if I use it sometime?

LEBillfish
10-18-2005, 11:31 PM
Personally after tonight I'm not too pleased. Though am NOT a pilot so simply speaking from assumption and "feel".

Took the time to try both the Ki-43 & 61 offline. Online tried the P47, Spit 8 CW, and FW 190 A4/5/6 in coops. At first flying the Type 1 & 3 fighters, I was initially met with the impression that the FM had been dumbed down. Stalls seemed almost non-existant, and if finding myself in one could instantly correct. In kind the Ki-61 & 43 seemed to have no sense of E loss, stall, or hesitation in recouping speed/energy.

As a side note I noticed from even extreme angles of 30 degree's left or right AND up or down B24's & 25's would "instantly" swing their tail in line with my plane to block my targeted area....They would do this back and forth no matter how violently I shifted over and over. Besides the bouncing (see below).

Spit wouldn't turn, worse still it wouldn't stabilize to shoot unless at near stall.

Online became worse......I could not lift off in a 50% fuel, 2/500 & 1/1,000 # bomb in a P47 in the entire length of a runway....Once up the plane felt sluggish, however it had no sense of stalling or struggling it just simply was accelerating or it wasn't........Once on the run, the plane at all altitudes once up to speed began to buffet and bounce all over in level flight as though in turbulance. Now in a hard turn or climb when I'd expect to feel my E fading and the plane stalling, it would stabilize. At speed it jumped all over.

Agitated, when I encountered 2 D9s trying to turn on my 6, I figured what the heck and turned with them. 6+ complete 360 degree turns later 20m from the deck at 180km/h the radius of the turn half as big as ever before, the 190s broke as we were getting no where (in fact I had closed on them and had just fired on the wingman).....At that point with no E, we both climbed hard "making alt" to 500m in an instant, then as he dove I followed.

Up to speed of roughly 350-400 km/h I try to line him up in a shallow dive.....Not a round struck from 200m as the plane was bouncing all over (yet there was no turbulance on the server).

Next mission, FW190A5 climbs like a bat out of hell to 3km stable as can be at 190 km/h in roughly 3 min. (est.).....dive on a number of B25's and at 50m having missed from 6 slightly below with much of my ammo move on to a second...same thing...Have lots of speed, lots of E and can't hit squat.........Naturally, when my engine takes 1 round it siezes instantly...THEN the plane stabilizes and I kill easily 2 B25's as the FW rides the stall at roughly 200km/h.

Other Fw's just got worse.....

I don't get it.....I can't feel/sense the plane like 4.01 or even 3.0X......Plane at speeds bounces all over, near stall stabilizes, stalls can be corrected with virtually no effort. Planes feel like they have no loss of E or torque/hp....Almost like nothing takes any effort except to stabilize and that thus far has been impossible.

stick settings
1X=0 3 10 18 27 37 48 60 73 87 100 0
1Y=0 3 10 18 27 37 48 60 73 87 100 0
1RZ=0 3 10 18 27 37 48 60 73 87 100 0

Maybe it will just take time, yet at this point 4.02 "to me" feels arcadish with no sensation of anything happening or affecting anything else. What bugs me most is it is when you'd think the plane should be most stable it is the least......I can understand more drag/resistance near a stall is like a firmer surface to stabilize you....Yet when your E & speed is up, I don't "think" it should bounce like the worst turbulance we can generate in the sim.

4.01 was a huge jump forward......To me 4.02 at this moment feels like 2 huge jumps back.

Just un-educated opinion......and the sensation the sim generates as in 4.01 you could "feel" the plane.

3.JG51_Stecher
10-19-2005, 12:36 AM
Very disappointed. The intertia seems to have gone back to 3.04, you can start and stop rolls on a dime. The torque is a step back too, seems the same on takeoff, but in flight it's hardly noticable, even at low speed/high RPM. And what the heck is this wobbling at the slightest touch?! When I move the stick 5 degrees forward, why does the plane snake left and right like I'm trashing the rudder? It does it during anything, pitch, roll, it wobbles in the yaw. How does that make sense? I miss 4.01 already.

HeinzBar
10-19-2005, 06:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 3.JG51_Stecher:
Very disappointed. The intertia seems to have gone back to 3.04, you can start and stop rolls on a dime. The torque is a step back too, seems the same on takeoff, but in flight it's hardly noticable, even at low speed/high RPM. And what the heck is this wobbling at the slightest touch?! When I move the stick 5 degrees forward, why does the plane snake left and right like I'm trashing the rudder? It does it during anything, pitch, roll, it wobbles in the yaw. How does that make sense? I miss 4.01 already. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

S!,
I hate to say it, but I"m missing 4.01 too. After spending the entire night flying the new FM, I was left w/ an empty feeling. For some reason it seemed that doing complex manuevers were much easier, while flying straight and level was a chore. I honestly didn't see anything wrong w/ the 4.01 FM for most planes (slot planes were the exception). The slot planes in 4.01 had some problems. It seems that some of the slot planes were fixed, while others remained the same (just guess). The problem I saw was the DM on the FW's fuel tank. Apparently, this has been fixed and then some.

Now, I'm seeing the old slots and rails flying, the contineous op-da-loop from the usual suspects from 3.04, wildly spraying .50s using the shotgun effect of 2.01 to knock out engines, PK, and destroy control surfaces, etc. As much as it pains me, I have to agree w/ many of the posters here, 4.02 seems to have taken a step back and adopted the ole Crimson Skies FM.

However, as we all do, we'll learn to fly the fm, grow accustomed to them, and then relearn to fly the planes all over w/ the next patch.


HB

Diablo310th
10-19-2005, 06:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fordfan25:

only compaint i have is it seems for me any way that the planes are even more unstable. its like thay are ballenced on the tip of a pen. just has an odd bobbling motion to them. worse than the p-47 in 4.01. and it seems to have spread. patch 4.01 had it MOSTLY on the US planes now it seems the FW and 109 has it as well. the only planes iv flown so far that doesnt have it is the la-7 and p-38. but i have not flown to many plane yet </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I found the same thing fordfan....some strange wobbling at high speed and the jug doesn't seem to overheat at all now. It's great at hight alt. now tho. The Jug is back to being a good high alt. fighter. High speed roll is much better now.

Zoom2136
10-19-2005, 07:02 AM
Is it just me but... when a roll the plane 90 degrees (a spit V or VIII) and pull on the stick to make a "soft to medium" turn it will start to turn and then "like an elastic€ whammo!!! It just sometime snap turns €¦.

Aaron_GT
10-19-2005, 07:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">same observations here...and as fordfan said "its like they are ballanced on the tip of a pen"....

its worse with every new patch...all I can say is that I noticed that for the first time I barely play this sim... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember a few months back people were complaining that the FMs were too easy, 'noob friendly' and 'arcade'...

Lucius_Esox
10-19-2005, 07:29 AM
I remember a few months back people were complaining that the FMs were too easy, 'noob friendly' and 'arcade'...

?? point!!

BSS_CUDA
10-19-2005, 07:30 AM
well after my 1 hour flight in my trusty 38 last night, it seems to be more nimble to me like it turns quicker and climbs better, but I seem to be hearing the same thing from everyone, I did chase down a Dora @ 20k+ dont remember being able to do that before, but he went into a 10% climb and stayed there, and that is one of the 38 strengths climbing @ 10%, the 50's do seem better, I smoked 2 109's and a 190 all on a single pass. I reserve judgement on anything till this weekend when I can rally spend sometime behind the stick. but so far I do like the feel of a more nimble 38, but I think its probably no different than anything other plane just an illusion

Genie-
10-19-2005, 07:34 AM
if you want wobbling effect (witch is correct IMHO) and inertia with good torque.. use 4.01_beta_02 or 04

that was the best FM I have ever seen.

Doug_Thompson
10-19-2005, 08:03 AM
I don't know what to say about the wobble that has everybody talking. I tried out the Spitfire Mark IX last night because people were talking about how bad it was. I had a little more trouble keeping the pipper on the target, but nothing like what's been described here. Then I tried the P-38, the new Jug, and an unmodified P-40.

The noticable but slight increase in wobble came nowhere close to offsetting the increased deadliness of machine guns. Also, I don't know if this improved firepower is restricted to the .50-cal.

As BSS_CUDA found, the P-38 is one of the planes that greatly benefits from patch changes. I could line up a shot from the Lightening easier than ever before, and now those four machine guns in the nose are deadly.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Diablo310th:
... and the jug doesn't seem to overheat at all now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto here. There were complaints that Pratt and Whitney-engined fighters were too prone to overheat. We'll see if that's been changed for all the behemoths, such as the Corsair and Hellcat. That and the improvements to .50-cal. would make American fans very happy.

jimDG
10-19-2005, 02:02 PM
if you folks want 4.01 FM kinda handling, set your stick curves to default, plus 2 to 3 notches of filtering (for pitch only). then, it should start making sense http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

RedDeth
10-19-2005, 02:10 PM
yea ...no duh.

if you havent adjusted your settings after the new patch you shouldnt be posting complaints. you should be re adjusting your stick settings.

duh

horseback
10-19-2005, 02:36 PM
It seems to me to be a little early in the game to be passing judgement. As we found after the 4.01 patch, a good deal of joystick sensitivity tinkering may be required, and I doubt that it will be the same for every stick brand, or every aircraft you choose to fly.

It looks to me as though the CEM/FM has been getting progressively more complicated with each previous patch in ways both subtle and not so subtle, and Oleg and his merry men have not exactly been forthcoming with the needed details.

It is up to us as a community to come up with stick settings and operating procedures for our controller setups and preferred aircraft, and to share them.

I for one would be grateful if those who claim to have no problems with the new patch would state what controllers and sensitivities they are using , and the aircraft FMs they have personally tested.

thank you

horseback

jugent
10-19-2005, 03:14 PM
A conclusion on what beeing written, red pilots (USAF) are pleased because the P-47 and P-38 are better.
Blue pilots are disapointed.

The I-16 I-153 seems to be as good as they where in the early days of forgotten battles when the I-16 was faster, curved better, climbed better than 109 F2, F4. It has never lost its green laser-guns.

It seems as the improvment of the overall characteristics for LW/AC was a dead end.

Lets hope that the Spit and Hurricane will be improved as well.

I am still waiting for the radiator-damage profil for all inline engines, and the correct revi-sight for the FW-190.

Aaron_GT
10-19-2005, 03:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I remember a few months back people were complaining that the FMs were too easy, 'noob friendly' and 'arcade'...

?? point!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is just that Oleg seems ****ed if he makes things arcade, ****ed if things are not arcade.

I've only had about an hour of stick time with the new patch (I only downloaded it 24 hours ago) but to be honest with my set up the differences seem relatively minor, with planes perhaps being a tad more responsive, and some changes in the stall modelling, especially if you get into a high sink rate power-off situation. The P factor is up a bit. Overall it seems a bit more like the FM in Targetware, but with more plausible ground handling. The differences don't seem huge, though. I haven't even changed my stick settings!

Takata_
10-19-2005, 03:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
(...) to be honest with my set up the differences seem relatively minor (...) The differences don't seem huge, though. I haven't even changed my stick settings! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same here: I'm still guessing what really changed from previous 4.01. Ok, new map, new planes... more hitting power for the .50s'. Everything about FMs' is only "slight" tuning.

Settings from previous conf.ini are not carried on very well after some of you get the game patched.

S~
Takata.

Genie-
10-19-2005, 04:35 PM
just came from few sessions in WarClouds..

ahm well.. 90% of planes on red side are Spits and some p51s and of course new shiny P47N.

On other side 90% of ppl are flying 190.

If you are even touched by those .50 you can say bye bye Kansas. Glad to see fuel leak problem back for 190. Great job! More then once I was just hit with few bullets and after 90 seconds I was out of fuel (no black or grey smoke at all).

Also, that spit is fantastic! f*ppeep* yeah! I'm diving in shallow dive, with 560, spit is coming form low 12 , does 180 turn, gets some alt and continue to chase me like he wasn't turning at all.

As I said. marvelous plane.

Aaron_GT
10-19-2005, 05:13 PM
One thing I did notice in the new FM, come to think of it, seems to be (at least subjectively) faster acceleration in shallow dives. I don't have any objective figures to be sure there actually IS a difference, though.

TooCooL34
10-19-2005, 05:41 PM
After 10 hours of flying both in online and offline, I can say one thing.
I love new FM
It's faster, more furious and exciting.
I don't like 4.01. Regardless of realistic or not, it was slow and not game-wise.

han freak solo
10-19-2005, 08:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TooCooL34:
I don't like 4.01. Regardless of realistic or not, it was slow and not game-wise. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just backed up my computer. Maybe, I'll install 4.02 after all. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

RedDeth
10-19-2005, 08:44 PM
the new patch is fantastic

h009291
10-19-2005, 10:12 PM
It's amazing that no one in the entire forum has ever flown ANY of the planes in PF in real life, yet knows exactly how they should or should NOT handle.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

GR142-Pipper
10-19-2005, 11:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
To me with just a couple minutes testing it feels as though we regressed back a number of patches....As though the awesome 4.01 Bob FM was tossed out, then all effects reduced....and we went full Arcade. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, the impression that 4.01 was "tossed out" as you say is exactly what I think benefits 4.02. The ficticious overtorquing and unnatural departure characteristics of far too many aircraft were simply wrong. 4.02 has undone many of these strange behaviors...a good thing. Overall, this is one patch that I think really improves the flying qualities of many aircraft, red and blue. It's not perfect by any means but it seems to be a step in the right direction. Having said that, it's still a bit early to come to any concrete conclusions.

GR142-Pipper

Genie-
10-20-2005, 01:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by h009291:
It's amazing that no one in the entire forum has ever flown ANY of the planes in PF in real life, yet knows exactly how they should or should NOT handle.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah, and it is even more amazing when you present the hard data (like varius bullet effects on fw190) all you can get is "You is wrong" answer.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

anarchy52
10-20-2005, 01:43 AM
In general I think this patch is Allied-friendly more then 4.01 was LW-friendly.

- 190 stalls much easier so you won't be able to do those 90 deg hard highspeed turns to outturn spitfires. Also fuel tank leak of death is back - you get hit by couple of .50s and 90 sec later voila - out of fuel - scratch one focke. It seems there are only two possible DMs for focke: a) P-38 tank or b) Zero.
- .50s are back to old days glory of BVR spray & pray
- Spit is teh clownwagon it was before (2.x, 3.x).
- 109 feels more in line with what you'd expect. I guess it won't be in the n00b ride category anymore.
- roll inertia: no more

I'm scared to even try russian aircraft...

Back to normal I guess

Maraz_5SA
10-20-2005, 02:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Thoughts?

- Mega uber shake on all aircraft
- Many aircraft are incredibly unstable and wobble and flop
- Aircraft feel very much like 3.04 aside from the instability...

4.01 was way better so far....I'm hoping my experience improves but so far precision gunnery is out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree on all of that.

Plus with the new brittler landing gear, the new "air cushion" making you bounce indefinitely on the runway and the wobbling, landing has became a nightmare. I don't believe that real life pilots had to struggle so much to land a Bf.109.

OK I never flew a '109 or a Spit but I saw lots of gun camera videos and there is no wobbling and shaking like that we have now.

Definitely this patch is a step backwards from playability and realism

Cheers
Maraz

msalama
10-20-2005, 02:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...landing has became a nightmare. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

...and pilot skill has no impact on this whatsoever IYO? Is that what you're saying?

civildog
10-20-2005, 02:44 AM
OK, I won't whine as loudly now about the newest FM. I still don't like it because I still am awfully tired of having to relearn this **** game every few months, and I still don't trust anymore that it's all that accurate since every patch has made too many back-n'-forth changes, but I think I've got the bouncing/wobble thing down to manageable levels.

I swapped out the config.ini with my old one from 4.01m and now it's much more flyable. I don't know why this is so, but at this point I'll take it. The touchiness to fine movements is still there, but not nearly as bad as it was. And I can get planes into turning stalls now.

The 190's aren't too difficult to kill now - if you can catch them. Same with the Heinkels, and Stukas. The damage models seem a lot more reasonable again. It does my heart good to once again be able to blow the wings and engines off Heinkels with the Cobra's cannon.

Kuna15
10-20-2005, 03:20 AM
Testing my new quote in sig, appropriate occasion http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Maraz_5SA
10-20-2005, 03:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by msalama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...landing has become a nightmare. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

...and pilot skill has no impact on this whatsoever IYO? Is that what you're saying? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You need to be an ace to land in this game IYO? Is that what you are saying? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I am sure I can learn (again, for the 2nd or 3rd time) how to land (anyway it will be much more difficult than before).

But is this correct? Did real life pilots need to break 20 landing gears before learning how to land? I don't think so.

These radical changes of FM at each patch aren't good to me. I feel like I am doing alpha-test for BoB...

Cheers
Maraz

WOLFMondo
10-20-2005, 03:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:

4.01 was a huge jump forward......To me 4.02 at this moment feels like 2 huge jumps back.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. The torque seems fine in 4.01 from all the stories I've read about using huge amounts of rudder on take off with high performance planes etc. Now its gone, back to 3.0X levels.

Definatly a step back.

msalama
10-20-2005, 04:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You need to be an ace to land in this game IYO? Is that what you are saying? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well... seriously, no, of course not.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I feel like I am doing alpha-test for BoB... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nail, head, hammer. Just replace "alpha" with "beta" and you're spot on http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Udidtoo
10-20-2005, 04:50 AM
Late yesterday a fellow -HH- had already installed the 4.02m and flew a variety of planes while Quazi worked on correcting some carrier speeds and I did what I do best. Lay on my back and relax. There are days I just can't attain the vertical so when I can't fly I just find a spot that's tolerable and hang with my squadm8s and talk about flying or mission building or paint schemes or.....see a pattern here?

About 25 seconds into his 1st ride Sunny said "bamnit to **** or something to that effect but with more F's. As we both said 'What?' at the same time Clark proceeded to tell us some initial impressions and they were disturbingly familiar to Lbillfish and others early reports. OK, thinks I...Clark has similar tastes to mine. Loves to fly, doesn't care red or blue. Just strap me in a plane with a realistic FM and I can even be happy while being shot up if it was a good engagement and I learned something from the defeat to make me a better virtual pilot. Not being prone to rash judgments and harsh criticism where its unwarranted I was a little taken aback at some of his comments but as we continued to listen as he described what he was experiencing I started to get concerned. i began to think that 1. This is coming from a dude who loves this Simm enough to give up sleep to test climb rates and discuss mission objectives and whether the IAR80's armament is acceptable against Yak-1's and I-16's for a historical 41 mission or should we substitute the 81a for more hitting power until 2:00 am....2. If he is this animated after 2 hours of testing I have some testing of my own to do tomorrow so my body better dang well cooperate and let me sit up so I can grab this 4.02m.

I've rarely had a negative thing to say about aspects of the patches. I've always felt that they were a step in the right direction(or what I perceive to be the right direction) I've never posted in a thread thumping my chest and proclaiming I know more than you and you and especially you 3rd from the left,never felt the need to call someone a noob if his style or likes or dislikes differ from my take on reality or this flight simm. Never felt the need to do this CAPITALS GIVE MY POST CREDIBILITY + URGENCY because as you can see bigger letters are well....bigger. So after a 13+ hour marathon with 4.02m the original poster wants to know my thoughts.

WHO BROKE MY FAVORITE TOY???

I wanted Clark to be wrong. Along with lbillfish and every other regular that almost 3 years of daily contact this forum has shown to be intelligent and honest posters. People who generally don't have an agenda.Unless just wanting an honest accurate as it can be flight simm regardless of which countries or sides this or that plane flew for is an agenda. I really wanted to key in on the folks posting the positives they felt Oleg had gifted us with again. I like having fan boy or near fan boy status. What I loved most of all was after many games who called themselves Simms I found one that felt with each add-on to be closer to what a real life flight in a powerful war machine might have been like for the brave men and women who piloted them. Of course we will never get deadon accurate FM's and DM's without being in the real planes and playing for the ultimate prize..survival but I thought we were close. Each patch got us a little closer. Close enough for hours and hours I could escape this broken frugged up shell I live in and fly into an alternate world where the Simming was so good you can almost believe and forget about the real one just a bit.

For the last 13 and some hours I've zipped around in a game. A very good game but just a game.It was really quite an accident that I discovered the thing that I just couldn't stand. It wasn't that the stick can be cranked around in an imitation of a milkmaid churning butter with little in the way of negative effects. Its not that intentionally pulling high risk maneuvers that if you fail to pull it off correctly should leave you without enough energy to survive the next move of the airborne chess match instead effects your E retention nowt. Its certainly not because I claim that my "feels wrong" feelings or my reading of countless pilots biographies means I have concrete evidence that my idea of what these planes we play in feels like is more credible or informed than anyone else. Trust me when I say I get a lot of stick time. I rarely leave my own property accept for a bi monthly hospital visit. When I'm not traveling to or from said Dr visit I am usually here. Pretending I can fly or talking about the last mission or the next one up with fellow ,hopelessly Oleg M addicted flight junkies. Still an almost unlimited access to FB/AEP/PF doesn't mean my take on this FM is any more valid than the FPS shooter dude that just joined 23 posts ago and has 7 hours logged.

I'm fairly certain that for the AirQuake crowd who's stats at HL are the Alpha and the Omega the thing that finally made me use the word P0rked is seen as a bonus instead of a deal breaker. The new Map ensures that my top shelf mission builders have a + to look to as well. For myself I always avoided the 'Is it a simm or a game?' polls and debates but I quietly always thought "Simm, definitely Simm"......You can recreate what's finally put me off. Its very easy to do in any QMB with almost all fighters and fighter bombers. My m8 that was testing Over heats and stall speeds with me did it perfectly or I should say was along for the ride when the new FM did it perfectly 1st try. Just grab some air. The new takeoffs BTW seem better , well I have never ran a real plane down a runway before but its hard to imagine that the drunken wobble to and fro fight to stay straight even with tail wheel locked seizure we had from some of the previous patches approached the real. Anyway, just take off and get to , oh say 250 meters give or take and Firewall that throttle give it some firm rudder either way and point the nose at the ground, applying more rudder as you descend and about 300 ft kick that opposite rudder full and yank that stick in the same direction and back just as hard as you can. Now click you heels 3 times and say WT........! as around 7 of 10 times on average with 1 or 1 and 1/2 evolutions the plane goes all David Copperfield and corrects itself while you gap in hands off Uberpilot splendor. Want a real joke. Save the track and watch it from externals. If you can watch that happening and still say this is a great "Simm" then my friend you have a broader and more active imagination than I.

My girls used to like to show their friends all my flight gear. multiple hotas', giant HD monitor, headsets, surround speakers, rudder pedals, the whole 9 yards and invariably the comment would be something similar to 'Wow, all that to play a game?' I would quickly set them straight with an ernest "no no, this isn't any old video game. This is THE premier flight simulator on the market today and as accurate a recreation of WWII combat available today. If I'm still flying 4.02m next time they ask that I'll be replying with "Yup"

Wow. look at this novella. I must love this Game even more than I realized to sit and peck out all this. Anyway to answer you original poster.......................sad.

Doug_Thompson
10-20-2005, 07:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
In general I think this patch is Allied-friendly more then 4.01 was LW-friendly.

- 190 stalls much easier so you won't be able to do those 90 deg hard highspeed turns to outturn spitfires. Also fuel tank leak of death is back - you get hit by couple of .50s and 90 sec later voila - out of fuel - scratch one focke. It seems there are only two possible DMs for focke: a) P-38 tank or b) Zero.
- .50s are back to old days glory of BVR spray & pray
- Spit is teh clownwagon it was before (2.x, 3.x).
- 109 feels more in line with what you'd expect. I guess it won't be in the n00b ride category anymore.
- roll inertia: no more

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You left out the fact that you can now run the big Pratt & Whitney radials at full power without overheating.

Also, .50-cal aren't the only MGs that have improved.

Genie-
10-20-2005, 07:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:

4.01 was a huge jump forward......To me 4.02 at this moment feels like 2 huge jumps back.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. The torque seems fine in 4.01 from all the stories I've read about using huge amounts of rudder on take off with high performance planes etc. Now its gone, back to 3.0X levels.

Definatly a step back. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like Oleg does not have fate in flying skills of certain pilots.

ImpStarDuece
10-20-2005, 08:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Doug_Thompson:


You left out the fact that you can now run the big Pratt & Whitney radials at full power without overheating.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, you can't.

At least not in the P-47, F4U or F6F. They will all overheat. I know, I have had all of them overheat on me in the last 2 hours.

WOLFMondo
10-20-2005, 08:09 AM
Agreed, did a couple of P47 co-ops last night. Definatly overheats down low same as ever. It did seem to overheat allot less the higher you get. The real test IMHO is the Hellcat and Corsair which overheat constantly.

msalama
10-20-2005, 08:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It did seem to overheat allot less the higher you get. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And no wonder, air temperatures being what they are up there...

Diablo310th
10-20-2005, 08:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by msalama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It did seem to overheat allot less the higher you get. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And no wonder, air temperatures being what they are up there... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

awww ok...that's why i couldn't get it to overheat on me. I have been flying 20,000 ft + in all my missions.

Doug_Thompson
10-20-2005, 08:42 AM
Bad wording on my part. Any engine will overheat if you run it long enough, obviously. It was my impression, however, that the P&W 2000 did not overheat nearly as quickly.

Edited P.S. Early model Corsair, Okinawa map. Put the throttle on full-blast and went down to 450 meters. Kept the plane level from there and in in trim.

Time to overheat warning: 00:03:14

Did the same thing with a Ki-84 "Frank" 1b.

Time to overheat warning: 00:02:53

Now, IIRC, the Americans complained very loudly after PF was released that the Pratt & Whitney overheated quickly while Franks could run full-blast all day.

Whatever. Whether the American P&W 2000s run cooler or the Japanese run hotter, or some mix of both, there appears to have been a change in 4.02 that helps Americans.

Airmail109
10-20-2005, 10:00 AM
Death towobble whiners!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously there have been some threads giving evidence to show that increased yaw when banking is more realistic.

I suggest you wobblewhiners go and learn how to fly the new fm, instead of complaining. Olegs tried to make it more realistic....deal with it. Many real pilots have been complaining about the lack of yaw effect when banking since day 1.

zzWalruszz
10-20-2005, 10:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
- .50s are back to old days glory of BVR spray & pray
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Disagree. I dont detect any significant differences in .50s
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
- Spit is teh clownwagon it was before (2.x, 3.x).
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree. Spit is nowhere near like it was in 3.04. It has very significant "wobble" and gunshake and will stall easily when stick inputs are too strong.

Anyone who calls the Spit a "clownwagon" strikes me as someone who likely hasn't flown it very much.

Doug_Thompson
10-20-2005, 10:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Disagree. I dont detect any significant differences in .50s
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Also, edited the earlier post about engine overheating. Ki-84 overheats faster than the Corsair now, apparently.

Scen
10-20-2005, 10:39 AM
What would be really interesting is if Oleg or someone from 1C could explain the changes to the FM.

Right now they are pretty vague and left open to interpretation.

Only after a few hours of flying online. I think a lot of the changes are fairly subtle. Then again I need more time to really test things out.

I would love for Oleg and company to make some comments. What was changed? I bet it would suprise a lot of us.

Scendore

blindpugh
10-20-2005, 11:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 3.JG51_Stecher:
Very disappointed. The intertia seems to have gone back to 3.04, you can start and stop rolls on a dime. The torque is a step back too, seems the same on takeoff, but in flight it's hardly noticable, even at low speed/high RPM. And what the heck is this wobbling at the slightest touch?! When I move the stick 5 degrees forward, why does the plane snake left and right like I'm trashing the rudder? It does it during anything, pitch, roll, it wobbles in the yaw. How does that make sense? I miss 4.01 already. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Well personally for me -all that should have been done was up the 50.s pork the 109 a bit and that,s it --but no they've gone from one extreme to the other now.Oh well theres always BOBII.

p-11.cAce
10-20-2005, 11:18 AM
I do miss the roll inertia - it seems far less / non-existant now.

GBrutus
10-20-2005, 02:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:

- 190 stalls much easier so you won't be able to do those 90 deg hard highspeed turns to outturn spitfires. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I actually feel the Fw190 handles very well since 4.02, nice and composed in pitch and roll.

danjama
10-20-2005, 02:32 PM
"Anyway, just take off and get to , oh say 250 meters give or take and Firewall that throttle give it some firm rudder either way and point the nose at the ground, applying more rudder as you descend and about 300 ft kick that opposite rudder full and yank that stick in the same direction and back just as hard as you can. Now click you heels 3 times and say WT........! as around 7 of 10 times on average with 1 or 1 and 1/2 evolutions the plane goes all David Copperfield and corrects itself while you gap in hands off Uberpilot splendor. Want a real joke!"

I would like to bring what this man said to everyones attention! Because he is so right, and this has really pissed me of as much as it has him id say! Has anyone seen this yet? I discovered it yesterday while dogfighting! Go ahead, pull as hard as you like, it doesnt matter caus ur plane aint going nowhere! OH NO, it will just right itself like some F16 fly by wire bull****! Since when was it so hard to flat spin a fecking F4U?! Oleg has gone crazy with this patch! He's taken all the good bits out that 4.01 had, and mixed in whats left with 3.04 and well, thats it! Yeah im still gonna fly, because i like to and because i have friends that fly. I just cant simulate world war 2 air combat no more, but i can play in "ww2 planes". PFFT! Such BS! Go ahead and try this move for yourselves.

civildog
10-20-2005, 03:12 PM
msalama
----------------------------------------------
quote:
You don't have to, you know, because things like this happen with beta SW. We're flying w/ BoB _beta_ FM now, which is something EVERY SINGLE ONE of us should remember...
-----------------------------------------

The more I've played this game the more I've realised in the last year that you are right about that...but...

...that may be fine and dandy to those of you who might like paying all the money and time this game has cost, but I resent being a playtester without compensation. I paid for a finished game, not a beta.

No, "getting" this game isn't compensation. I didn't get this thing as some present from Maddox and company - I paid money for it. I don't like having UBI/1C randomly change the game on me because they won't take the time to propery develop the thing BEFORE release. You know, doing that before releasing a game used to be the standard, and it was a mark of a bad developer to foist a game on th buyer and expect that the patches would make it ok, eventually.

I want the game I paid for, and no - I can't play that one now because I am forced o use the constant patches to play it online at all. I suppose if I didn't want to play online that would be a different story. But half the reason for purchasing the game was because it was an online game! Of course there must have been some fine print somewhere on the box that said the game would be constantly screwed with and I'd have to just put up with it because 1C/UBI was too lazy - or thinks I'm too stupid to care - to do it right the first time.

I've brought this up before: that I'd far prefer waiting the extra time to buy (that's right, I'd be more than willing to pay for the work) a complete product than to have this nonsense keep happening. If I want to be a playtester I'd sign up for it. I PAID for a PRODUCT, dammit.

As it is this will be the last thing I ever buy from this company. I'm not going to waste my time with BOB for two reasons: 1) Why the hell should I pay for it when I've been an involuntary member of the development team because they messed up the game I already paid for by turning it into a testbed for BOB? 2) If this is any indicator of how this company develops it's products then God help us all when the patches start rolling in for BOB.

Estocade85
10-20-2005, 03:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CivilDog:
msalama
----------------------------------------------
quote:
You don't have to, you know, because things like this happen with beta SW. We're flying w/ BoB _beta_ FM now, which is something EVERY SINGLE ONE of us should remember...
-----------------------------------------

The more I've played this game the more I've realised in the last year that you are right about that...but...

...that may be fine and dandy to those of you who might like paying all the money and time this game has cost, but I resent being a playtester without compensation. I paid for a finished game, not a beta.

No, "getting" this game isn't compensation. I didn't get this thing as some present from Maddox and company - I paid money for it. I don't like having UBI/1C randomly change the game on me because they won't take the time to propery develop the thing BEFORE release. You know, doing that before releasing a game used to be the standard, and it was a mark of a bad developer to foist a game on th buyer and expect that the patches would make it ok, eventually.

I want the game I paid for, and no - I can't play that one now because I am forced o use the constant patches to play it online at all. I suppose if I didn't want to play online that would be a different story. But half the reason for purchasing the game was because it was an online game! Of course there must have been some fine print somewhere on the box that said the game would be constantly screwed with and I'd have to just put up with it because 1C/UBI was too lazy - or thinks I'm too stupid to care - to do it right the first time.

I've brought this up before: that I'd far prefer waiting the extra time to buy (that's right, I'd be more than willing to pay for the work) a complete product than to have this nonsense keep happening. If I want to be a playtester I'd sign up for it. I PAID for a PRODUCT, dammit.

As it is this will be the last thing I ever buy from this company. I'm not going to waste my time with BOB for two reasons: 1) Why the hell should I pay for it when I've been an involuntary member of the development team because they messed up the game I already paid for by turning it into a testbed for BOB? 2) If this is any indicator of how this company develops it's products then God help us all when the patches start rolling in for BOB. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree 100%

danjama
10-20-2005, 03:40 PM
I agree too! No one ever looks at it as a bad thing but uv hit the nail right there! People are always like "well were testing the BOB model so be grateful" BUT u are right, i just couldnt word it before. Why should we have to be "testers" if we want to play a game online? Surely that isnt fair. Oleg knows that we will all upgrade because we want to play online, its like blackmail.

Banger2004
10-20-2005, 03:45 PM
I guess you can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

msalama
10-20-2005, 03:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I guess you can please some of the people some of the time,but not all of the people all of the time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

...so you've gotta see the light, gotta stand up for your rights.

Get up, stand up?

FoolTrottel
10-20-2005, 04:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I don't like having UBI/1C randomly change the game on me because they won't take the time to propery develop the thing BEFORE release. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They do not randomly change your game do they?
They offer a patch. Which you are not obliged to install.

If this new FM were so bad, so very bad, why do all of us still play the most recent version?

There's a lot of ppl (but still a minority) that seem to prefer 3.04(m), or whatever version. No one is forcing you to get the latest patch.

Get organized, have a server setup for 3.04(m), and go and have fun with the version you prefer!

faustnik
10-20-2005, 05:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FoolTrottel:

They offer a patch. Which you are not obliged to install. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's for sure! 1C could have just sold us PF, release one "fix-it" patch and said "We are moving on to BoB, thank you".

However, I don't see a problem with people expressing their opinion of the changes in the patches. I miss the torque effects of 4.01 and would like to see them back if there is another patch. What's wrong with expressing my opinion as a customer?

Wolfred
10-20-2005, 05:06 PM
I would like to say some good things about 4.02,
but i cant, i get a poor feeling like flying a arcade game, 4.00 was my favorite, 4.01 was a step in the wrong direction i think, and now this arcade flight model, sorry.

Archangel2980
10-20-2005, 09:11 PM
I feel like I'm flying planes from BF42 lol.

TooCooL34
10-20-2005, 09:30 PM
Can you believe? Following is the remark from Leadspitter, king of whiners.(No offense, just kidding.)

"I actually think 4.02 is the best patch we had in along time, many exploits are removed. Every plane can kill in one pass from a 1-4 second burst depending on weapon type.

Many roll rates are corrected, ground taxing is great, now all aircraft have a bit of sway to them instead of just certain ones.

the best thing is to see more fires and damage model pieces breaking off planes while staying somewhat intact, the explosions " exploded into a million pieces" is so rare now and I think that was one of the worst things about this game how frequently it happened with a 1 second burst.

I flew 4.02 for about 8-10 yesterday and about 4-5 hours today in most planes so far and flying any side does not matter when flown correctly and any side can do amazingly well.

I think 4.01 was the worst patch of the whole series and nothing was even close to being correct, 4.02 to me is still very arcadish but alot of things were corrected which ruined the game completely in 4.01 for all sides."


You know what? I agree 99% percent with him.
Cmon, even Leadspitter granted this is the best patch.
Relax, take your time and learn to fly.(again if you need)
The more you play, the more you like this patch.
Don't forget to make your input curve default. Default rules always. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Viper2005_
10-20-2005, 09:42 PM
3 pointing the 190 is harder than before.

It's a shame that they weakened the undercarriage. My favourite trick in 4.01 was to groundloop the 190 and reverse down the runway.

Personally I feel that this weakening of the undercarriage has gone a little far. I've seen training videos of P-47s executing 360º groundloops from ~ 60 knots, and I don't see why the 190 should have a weaker undercarriage.

The 190 seems better at retaining speed in the 600-800 km/h range.

G-LOC is more of an issue in the 190 than it was before, most likely because of the above.

The 190 DM seems to be greatly improved.

AAA is now DEADLY, and could perhaps do with being toned down somewhat. I have been taken out online by 88s whilst flying at 700 km/h plus on a single pass bombing run. This seems somewhat implausible. It implies a perfectly timed snapshot, as the angular rates associated with that TAS/altitude combination would obviously exceed the capabilities of crew to change the weapon's alignment.

The 151/20 seems weaker.

Allied MGs seem to hit harder, especially the .303 Browning.

Apart from the AAA which is just a bit too harsh for my tastes, I think this is the best patch I've played (I've been in since PF came out in the UK).

WWSensei
10-20-2005, 10:01 PM
I think Oleg should release a 4.0.3 where nothing changes but the version number and then we could watch the placebo effect as people argued over various perceived changes... ;-)

Wolf-Strike
10-20-2005, 10:01 PM
When u nose down you get massive rudder swing left to right.Go into chase view and nose down and youll see that plane yaws like mad.Look at slip indicator then nose down and youll see it yaws severe and then the over done wobble effect of plane trying to stabalize makes it worse.So now when a plane is jinking in front of you and you nose down to follow and nose up and down you are in for an unbeleivable(to me) ride.

I said this from leaked beta and got the what do i know speech.No plane will yaw full left on nose down and then go crazy trying to slow the inertia down the way IL2 planes do now http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Im seriously saddened

VF-51-Dart
10-21-2005, 12:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CivilDog:
msalama


The more I've played this game the more I've realised in the last year that you are right about that...but...

...that may be fine and dandy to those of you who might like paying all the money and time this game has cost, but I resent being a playtester without compensation. I paid for a finished game, not a beta.

No, "getting" this game isn't compensation. I didn't get this thing as some present from Maddox and company - I paid money for it. I don't like having UBI/1C randomly change the game on me because they won't take the time to propery develop the thing BEFORE release. You know, doing that before releasing a game used to be the standard, and it was a mark of a bad developer to foist a game on th buyer and expect that the patches would make it ok, eventually.

I want the game I paid for, and no - I can't play that one now because I am forced o use the constant patches to play it online at all. I suppose if I didn't want to play online that would be a different story. But half the reason for purchasing the game was because it was an online game! Of course there must have been some fine print somewhere on the box that said the game would be constantly screwed with and I'd have to just put up with it because 1C/UBI was too lazy - or thinks I'm too stupid to care - to do it right the first time.

I've brought this up before: that I'd far prefer waiting the extra time to buy (that's right, I'd be more than willing to pay for the work) a complete product than to have this nonsense keep happening. If I want to be a playtester I'd sign up for it. I PAID for a PRODUCT, dammit.

As it is this will be the last thing I ever buy from this company. I'm not going to waste my time with BOB for two reasons: 1) Why the hell should I pay for it when I've been an involuntary member of the development team because they messed up the game I already paid for by turning it into a testbed for BOB? 2) If this is any indicator of how this company develops it's products then God help us all when the patches start rolling in for BOB. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There has never been a good WWII flight sim online that didn't come with a lot of updates/patches. It's an ever evolving genre, and a very small one at that when compared to the other games out there. Yes, it can be frustrating at times, but that's the way of it. I've said this before and I'll say it again. Be thankful you are getting the best WWII sim made to date for the LITTLE $$ you've forked out so far. Used to be in the not so distant past that you'd pay $10/month + $1.99 an hour for the pleasure of virtually shooting others out of the WWII skies, and that was with a lot less support than what we have here. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Capt.LoneRanger
10-21-2005, 01:40 AM
Sometimes this community really makes me wonder.

Please, CivilDog, Estocade85 and all the others, please show me a single game a SINGLE GAME only, that is supported over 6 years, constantly updated and upgraded and worked uppon and that is still so good all of us play it? Just a single one, please.

You got to pay for the game and want it complete? Well, it is complete, the most complex and accurate flightsim on the market and it's getting better and it's even growing with every single patch, even if it is only a single plane or map added to the game.

And if you really don't like it or find it unrealistic, then feel free to get your money back or sell it on ebay.
And the comment that we all are beta-testers is plain BravoSierra. They didn't have to add the BOB-flightmodell (infact they only partially did at all). They did it for free to support the game and it IS going in the right direction, no matter what your personal taste is.
And even worse: Show me just a single game where you are NOT beta-testers in a sense you put it!? Play BF2 and watch how everything people wanted to have is made up in an addon. For free as in IL2? No way - pay 38bucks for a patch!
Or play SH3, to name another sim: You want a patch? Sorry, you have to wait for SH4.
Or what about UT? More modells, more details, better graphics - sure, go ahead and by the new version.

You people don't know a sh*t how well you are treated here and how brilliant this support is - period.

GR142-Pipper
10-21-2005, 02:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TooCooL34:
Can you believe? Following is the remark from Leadspitter, king of whiners.(No offense, just kidding.)

"I actually think 4.02 is the best patch we had in along time, many exploits are removed. Every plane can kill in one pass from a 1-4 second burst depending on weapon type.

Many roll rates are corrected, ground taxing is great, now all aircraft have a bit of sway to them instead of just certain ones.

the best thing is to see more fires and damage model pieces breaking off planes while staying somewhat intact, the explosions " exploded into a million pieces" is so rare now and I think that was one of the worst things about this game how frequently it happened with a 1 second burst.

I flew 4.02 for about 8-10 yesterday and about 4-5 hours today in most planes so far and flying any side does not matter when flown correctly and any side can do amazingly well.

I think 4.01 was the worst patch of the whole series and nothing was even close to being correct, 4.02 to me is still very arcadish but alot of things were corrected which ruined the game completely in 4.01 for all sides."


You know what? I agree 99% percent with him.
Cmon, even Leadspitter granted this is the best patch.
Relax, take your time and learn to fly.(again if you need)
The more you play, the more you like this patch.
Don't forget to make your input curve default. Default rules always. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Agree with you and Leadspitter.


GR142-Pipper

Freelancer-1
10-21-2005, 02:15 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

jimDG
10-21-2005, 04:13 AM
I've been playing with my stick settings in the last few days.
I originally had the default curve (10-20-30-etc) for both pitch and roll.
What works best for me now is 5-10-15-25-35-45-55-65-75-90 for pitch, and 5-10-15-25-35-45-55-65-75-100 for roll.
I put some filtering using the stick driver - about it's equivalent to half a notch of the in-game filtering.

With those changes handling pitch movement is closest to what it had been in 4.01 (for me) with the exception of a bit of an up-down nose wobble for the fw190A, if I go from one stick deflection to another too sharply in a turn (to get the proper lead on a target). La7 on the other hand handles as in 4.01 (with the new stick settings)
Roll feels a bit weird for both - should the roll stop so sharply as soon as the stick is released? Is that realistic?

Wolfred
10-21-2005, 05:08 AM
Why use a cougar,or a CH fighterstick hotas, when i can do the same with the keyboard in 4.02
this is not a sim anymore, to arcadish for me.

WOLFMondo
10-21-2005, 05:28 AM
4.01 Introduced better inertia and torque. How is this not realistic? 4.01 for the FM's was great for this. 3.0X was on rails. 4.02 is back in the rails.

I think some of you guys confuse the DM with the FM and whine no matter what happens.

carguy_
10-21-2005, 06:13 AM
Uhuh...so Leadspitter appreciates the arcadish game as long as his plane does well.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Newtria
10-21-2005, 06:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Leadspitter:
"I actually think 4.02 is the best patch we had in along time, many exploits are removed. Every plane can kill in one pass from a 1-4 second burst depending on weapon type.

Many roll rates are corrected, ground taxing is great, now all aircraft have a bit of sway to them instead of just certain ones.

the best thing is to see more fires and damage model pieces breaking off planes while staying somewhat intact, the explosions " exploded into a million pieces" is so rare now and I think that was one of the worst things about this game how frequently it happened with a 1 second burst.

I flew 4.02 for about 8-10 yesterday and about 4-5 hours today in most planes so far and flying any side does not matter when flown correctly and any side can do amazingly well.

I think 4.01 was the worst patch of the whole series and nothing was even close to being correct, 4.02 to me is still very arcadish but alot of things were corrected which ruined the game completely in 4.01 for all sides."
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>Agree with you and Leadspitter.

GR142-Pipper </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, now that we have Leadspitter & Pipper chiming in, all we need is Hayateace telling us how great this patch is and we'll have a trifecta. We can then rest assure that the 4.02m must be wrong . We can also be sure that the 4.02m must have addressed their pet planes.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Newtria

OldMan____
10-21-2005, 07:13 AM
EXACTLY. Certain people liking the patch in my point of view is a prediction that it is very bad (am still joystickless to test).

BTW.. until today 4.1 for me was the best patch and 3.0 was worse version.

NorrisMcWhirter
10-21-2005, 10:00 AM
I think they're just pleased because you can chop 109s in half from ~450m now in well under a second (like I did in a 2 on 2 the other evening in a P51..against a G6-Late).

Ironic for me to use this as a reference..but compare that to guncam sequences (which we know are the pick of the crop) where you just don't see planes breaking up quite so easily.

Realistically, you shouldn't be able to destroy ANY plane with ANY plane in one pass. Some simply have more firepower than others although DMs now offset this.

Also, I can't recall being able to cause any enemy plane to *explode* quite so easily as they do now. Marketing involves selling to perceptions as much as anything else...seems we have a Hollywood movie on our screens now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

HayateAce
10-21-2005, 10:09 AM
I am cutting 109s in two with 1/2 second bursts!

http://www.411grfx.com/wib_photos/applause.jpg

ploughman
10-21-2005, 10:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
I am cutting 109s in two with 1/2 second bursts!

http://www.411grfx.com/wib_photos/applause.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which one's you? The one closest is hot!

NorrisMcWhirter
10-21-2005, 10:38 AM
Yep, you should be proud of yourself, Hayate. Even YOU should be able to get a kill now. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

faustnik
10-21-2005, 10:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
I think they're just pleased because you can
Realistically, you shouldn't be able to destroy ANY plane with ANY plane in one pass. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What, that makes no sense. Maybe I'm reading it wrong?????

NorrisMcWhirter
10-21-2005, 10:59 AM
Should you be able to destroy a P47 with a Ki43 in one pass?

Ta,
Norris

LEBillfish
10-21-2005, 11:01 AM
Well based on what I have been "reading" all over as to impressions......It is beginning to look somewhat like this in the community....

Some love the new patch for First Person Shooter type of reasons.....That concerns me. When someone suddenly loves something due to the fact that they acquired a quantum leap in skill.....well, you get the idea.

Others love the patch pointing out some very realistic problems with 4.01.....That solely their reason. That I find credible and it makes me take a longer look to consider it.

Some love the patch simply because they hated 4.01.....Those I just discount as they no doubt loved 4.01 hating 3.04, loved 3.04 hating 3.01 and so on.

Lastly some love the patch simply because they got something......Goody for you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Of those that hate it......

Some hate it because they're no longer an ace like in 4.01.....Sour grapes, discounted.

Some hate it because some positive/realistic aspects to them were lost...This I find worthy of note as well as the positive changes above.

Some hate it because they claim it's all wrong.....There it is hard for me to say not knowing their background.

and lastly, there are those who are simply having problems with what seems to be some file conflicts.....Initially their experience will be poor, yet who's to say once it sorts out.


All in all considering the above, I'm deffinately impressed with a number of the points that have been discussed where problems with 4.01 were resolved. Currently I'll just have to take their word for it, yet they have given some fine examples so in that regard I find the patch a plus.

In contrast however, and know when I say "feel" it relates to the sensation I get when flying the sim.....To me some of that was lost with 4.02 as I can no longer feel, or get the sensation of flying, stalls as they're about to happen, loss of E, and so on. Now the FM may or may not be more realistic that I can't say. Yet the sensation of flight where you could through reactions in the plane get a sense that X was about to happen....be it a shudder, or a feeling of loss of E whatever seems gone.

I miss that.

In kind the ease of regaining control of a stalled plane, or even the ability to not stall it bothers me. Yet in fairness I don't know what is correct. Other aspects I know for a fact that have not been corrected that are wrong, or some new changes that I also know are wrong bother me.

The problems with what seems to be stick input corruption I'm really not upset about. Ghosts in the machine will always happen and that was just one of. Frustrating yes, yet certainly nothing to slam the patch over.

Lastly, if for no other reason to like or dislike the patch, I like it in the regard that it shows 1c's devotion to continuous improvement. It doesn't matter whether or not they get it right or wrong this go round....As it shows they are taking the time to try and improve on this creation, more so in that they have no obligation to do so.

Frankly, hate the patch or love it.......You have to appreciate 1c's efforts no matter the reason to improve what for all intensive purposes makes them no money. That's devotion to making something the best it can be. More so, it's even more impressive in that they do it to something they already know is shelved/put away as they move on to better things. Like adding that one last touch to a painting before you put it in the attic.

For that reason alone, I appreciate 4.02, 1c and their hard work, and devotion to an obsolete product and public they will never meet.

No matter the FM, good or bad, perfection in models or errors I'll keep flying it till they come out with their next generation of product

..............gratefully loving it.

Kelly....."Fan Goil"

HayateAce
10-21-2005, 11:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ploughman:
[QUOTE]Which one's you? The one closest is hot! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am in the upper right corner with the nametag, "HayateAce Hero."

You really like the ladie in the front? I think that is Oleg's Auntie. This piccy is taken at Tuesday nights patch unveiling. Oleg has just approached the podium.

Jetbuff
10-21-2005, 11:55 AM
Billfish, you're forgetting those who haven't decided yet. Like you I take most of these opinions with a grain of salt. (more like a slab actually) That said, I'm worried that a lot of the "wrong" people (more interested in winning than actually enjoying an immersive WWII experience) are loving this patch; does not bode well.

OMK_Hand
10-21-2005, 01:53 PM
Some here have commented on changes in the time it takes for planes to overheat, and that begs the question - how many of you ever look at those little dials and things on the cockpit panel, and use them the way they were intended and manage the engine?
Especially on those planes where pilot input is needed for controlling the propeller pitch?

I read the wartime Air Ministry manual for the Spitfire V yesterday:

http://www.airwar.ru/other/bibl_r.html

Just out of of frustration really. And curiosity.
After all this time I can't believe Mr. Maddox isn't giving us good stuff, and I recon that any problems must lie with my not understanding something.

I know nothing of how an engine works other than open throttle = go faster.

In contrast, the manual only mentions the throttle once relating to engine management, for start-up - "1/2 inch open"

The engine settings are all referred to in terms of RPM, Boost, IAS, and occasionally temperature.

e.g. Climb: 2850 RPM, +9 Boost, 170mph IAS (IAS changes with altitude)

So. ignoring the throttle percentages, I followed the recommended settings for various jobs - take off, climb, combat, cruise, using the cockpit dials.

Set Boost (throttle), Set RPM (pitch), Maintain IAS (attitude).

First thing I noticed was that my joystick throttle was only ever opened fully to 100% in order to engage the combat boost, and combat boost is limited to 5 minutes maximum use before bad things are supposed to happen to the engine.

The second thing was that the settings as described in the manual related to the game.

The third thing was I was tanking along with low engine temperatures.

So now I'm thinking 2 things:

1) I really need to be aware of and fly within engine limitations, then it won't start to **** out on me in a fight causing all sorts of problems.
I've apparently been gently screwing my engine on take off...

2) The fact that one plane taken at random out of all the planes available has cockpit gauges that respond in a way that a 60 year old manual says they should, well it shows me that for the spitfire v at least, Oleg has his finger on the button, and I have to have faith he's doing ok in other areas of the game. Other areas I know nothing about.

This is the first time I've checked such a thing, and I was amazed.

All this fuss over a 30mb patch when there's still so much to find out in the core game...

bodaw
10-21-2005, 02:49 PM
So we're back to arcade mode eh?

danjama
10-21-2005, 03:00 PM
"The more you play, the more you like this patch."

This guy is right! On the previous page i am a hater but after another day with it (tampering stick setings and working them out for my fave rides) I have a resemblence of how i feel a ww2 plane should fly like. Maybe it wont work for anyone else, but after a days tinkering, i cant tell what they changed from 4.01 (apart from 109s snapping and 190s burning hehe). My overall opinion now? Good! Thanks Oleg and Co.

jugent
10-21-2005, 03:17 PM
It is good that the RAF/USAF/VVS A/C:s has reach their former standards. Blue virtual pilots are unhappy, and the reds are happy again.

The 4.01-patch forced us spit-jocks to get up high and practice B&Z. We where more dangerus there than below 2K, where the Spit is superior in all aspects exept top-speed.

Now most Spit-jocks have returned to below 2k
and uses the frictionless airframe of the spit to engage every stupid LW-pilot that challange them down there.

The P-47 demands a pilot who is brought up with B&Z, most pilot will abandom it for the spit after a while.

The P-38 is still a aerodynamical masterpiece, the P-39 has become this patch:s uber-plane.
I think it´s this way to satisfy those who admires Aleksandr I. Pokryshkin and want to fly his plane and shoot down enemies.

Actually the USAF gave the P-39 to Soviet Union because they regardet it useless as fighter.
They had it for training and for fire-practice.
Only a few saw action and where replaced as soon as possible.

I love the spit but fly mostly the P-51 when I fly red and stay alive.

Remember never blame the game, blame the users if they say things that dont satisfy you.

Bearcat99
10-21-2005, 03:49 PM
With every new patch there are people who cry "arcade" and "my plane is porked" and "bias".. and "incomplete" and "unrealistic" and "flies on rails" and more of the same old stupid BULL$HIT that makes me spometimes wonder why I even bother coming here. The real kicker to me is .... these same people crying and whining like a bunch of spoiled sissies at every single frickin patch that comes along NEVER LEAVE.... Even the ones who say goodbye never leave........ They make all kinds of dumb@ssed speaches about "farewell" and "had enough" and all that cr@p then they come back under a new name in a week or so but you can always get a pretty good idea of who they are by the nonsense they post. Go figure. These same people are the ones who throw the "whiner" and "fanboi" labels around like confetti... and yet they never EVER leave this arcadeish, terrible sim...... They just sit around day in and day out and complain..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Newtria
10-21-2005, 04:01 PM
S!,
Not really caring about Red vs Blue issue, I'm more concerned w/ the fidelity of flight we experience. After flying 4.02m for an extended period of time, it seems like 1C removed the BoB alpha FM and replaced it w/ 3.04. I'm happy for those that enjoy the patch, but I have to disagree w/ those that say this is the best patch to date. The challenge of flight is simply no longer there. If I were to rank the planes in terms of ease, it would be VVS, RAF, IJN/A, LW, and USAAF. I with those that say 4.01 gave more of the feeling of flight. I honestly believe those that enjoy this new FM are more are actually more concerned about the FW's DM and the effects MGs have on it.

Newtria

Scen
10-21-2005, 05:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Newtria:
S!,
Not really caring about Red vs Blue issue, I'm more concerned w/ the fidelity of flight we experience. After flying 4.02m for an extended period of time, it seems like 1C removed the BoB alpha FM and replaced it w/ 3.04. I'm happy for those that enjoy the patch, but I have to disagree w/ those that say this is the best patch to date. The challenge of flight is simply no longer there. If I were to rank the planes in terms of ease, it would be VVS, RAF, IJN/A, LW, and USAAF. I with those that say 4.01 gave more of the feeling of flight. I honestly believe those that enjoy this new FM are more are actually more concerned about the FW's DM and the effects MGs have on it.

Newtria </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really don't know but I think the same 4.01 FM is still present in 4.02m it's more of an issue of controls seem to be overall more responsive hence the guys that need to change their stick settings.

The stalls still feel like 4.01 to me not 3.04 which where odd and very canned.

Just my 2 cents for now. I need to fly more.

Scendore

Wolfred
10-21-2005, 07:08 PM
I hope i get use to 4.02, since im only fly this great sim online, maybe wings of victory will have a multiplayerpatch soon, if not there is nothing i can do about it, and i should be happy for 4.02

MagnumHK
10-21-2005, 08:13 PM
Took the time to try both the Ki-43 & 61 offline. Online tried the P47, Spit 8 CW, and FW 190 A4/5/6 in coops. At first flying the Type 1 & 3 fighters, I was initially met with the impression that the FM had been dumbed down. Stalls seemed almost non-existant, and if finding myself in one could instantly correct. In kind the Ki-61 & 43 seemed to have no sense of E loss, stall, or hesitation in recouping speed/energy

Originally posted by LEBillfish.

Billfish try this with a P39D1 or P39D2 series and see what you think of the stall. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

GR142-Pipper
10-21-2005, 11:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jugent:
Actually the USAF gave the P-39 to Soviet Union because they regardet it useless as fighter.
They had it for training and for fire-practice.
Only a few saw action and where replaced as soon as possible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Not exactly right. The P-39's/P-400's were well used in the Pacific until 1943 when they were replaced by later types (to wit: Guadalcanal, etc.). The Russians also flew these aircraft and were quite successful with them.

GR142-Pipper

LEBillfish
10-22-2005, 12:05 AM
Fly an A6M2-21........One of the most agile planes made that is in the sim....Think you're in for a surprise.

Jetbuff
10-22-2005, 12:40 AM
I'm not sure yet, but I really think E-bleed (for all planes) has gone the way of the do-do again; a step back for sure if true.

NorrisMcWhirter
10-22-2005, 03:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I honestly believe those that enjoy this new FM are more are actually more concerned about the FW's DM and the effects MGs have on it.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You only have to sit in HL for a short while to know this is true.

LS appears happy now that you can destroy LW planes in one pass which is dubious if we consider the following:

Name......Gun Power
FW190A8...826
P51.......360
La7.......330
P47.......480
P38.......440
109F4.....226

(http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm)


Now, I wouldn't expect to be able to destroy a plane in one pass with the F4...and I can't. But I can cause structural failure of an aircraft in one pass with the P51. The La7 is particularly interesting as it's well known to be very destructive....

From http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-fi.html:

"Six .50 guns was the armament of most US fighters. Most pilots liked the .50 gun, but it lacked the power to do structural damage to enemy aircraft."

Compare that to chopping 109s in half.

Interestingly, this is also quoted at the same site: "Postwar research demonstrated that only armour-piercing incendiary rounds were really effective, by setting fire to ammunition or fuel."

Maybe Oleg has taken this literally with the 190DM?

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

Udidtoo
10-22-2005, 03:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
With every new patch there are people who cry "arcade" and "my plane is porked" and "bias".. and "incomplete" and "unrealistic" and "flies on rails" and more of the same old stupid BULL$HIT that makes me spometimes wonder why I even bother coming here. The real kicker to me is .... these same people crying and whining like a bunch of spoiled sissies at every single frickin patch that comes along NEVER LEAVE.... Even the ones who say goodbye never leave........ They make all kinds of dumb@ssed speaches about "farewell" and "had enough" and all that cr@p then they come back under a new name in a week or so but you can always get a pretty good idea of who they are by the nonsense they post. Go figure. These same people are the ones who throw the "whiner" and "fanboi" labels around like confetti... and yet they never EVER leave this arcadeish, terrible sim...... They just sit around day in and day out and complain..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I've never complained about a patch one time previous of this Barry not 1 time. As for leaving...nope still going to play the finest Game around but when the developers give me a patch that has Stall Away the 4.02oz easy method to remove those annoying flat spins and snap stall. When I can reach all the way down to The P-400 on the list of Planes and the B-25's and Beaufighter are the only ones that don't self correct after I have intentionally induced a stall and most correct themselves in less than 2 complete revolutions. I do believe I have the right to say I'm highly disappointed that despite all the cool Things this patch has brought to the Game it has taken away a very critical element that IMO by its very nature disqualifies this Game to be classed as a simulation. For someone who is worried about the ease in which words get thrown around as labels your awfully generous with the word simm.

Gran Tourismo 3 for the PS2 had some beautifully modeled cars. Some very good tracks to race on and was just plain old fun to run around in but as for it being simulation. It let you slam into other cars as a method to get through corners easier than if you actually had to use skill and handling to do so and no damage was accrued.

We now have a patch that instead of killing you if you fly beyond the plane your in's envelope not only will you get a complimentary insta-recover but if you had some forward speed when you pushed it to far it will not only recover for you but also let you keep your energy as a bonus. Now you obviously like the word simming but if I throw my ride into a maneuver and I screw up and do something badly enough that it should have left me praying for enough altitude to recover but instead the new FM flips me over and around on my back and in 1 turn I'm A OK and in control then IMO I'm not Simming I'm playing a airplane Game.

That doesn't mean because you don't see it the same way I'm guilty of any of the slanderous remarks you make about anyone who doesn't see things your way. Which by the way I think broke at least 2 of the forum rules. How does that work? Kind of like when my brother the cop explains to me why he doesn't have to obey speed limits?

Ugly_Kid
10-22-2005, 03:26 AM
Hammerhead turns are now possible, they weren't in the previous patch and they are even more realistic to perform than in any of the previous patches and versions since IL-2 v1.0, my 2 c.

NorrisMcWhirter
10-22-2005, 03:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
With every new patch there are people who cry "arcade" and "my plane is porked" and "bias".. and "incomplete" and "unrealistic" and "flies on rails" and more of the same old stupid BULL$HIT that makes me spometimes wonder why I even bother coming here. The real kicker to me is .... these same people crying and whining like a bunch of spoiled sissies at every single frickin patch that comes along NEVER LEAVE.... Even the ones who say goodbye never leave........ They make all kinds of dumb@ssed speaches about "farewell" and "had enough" and all that cr@p then they come back under a new name in a week or so but you can always get a pretty good idea of who they are by the nonsense they post. Go figure. These same people are the ones who throw the "whiner" and "fanboi" labels around like confetti... and yet they never EVER leave this arcadeish, terrible sim...... They just sit around day in and day out and complain..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry - I thought this was a discussion forum for the game. That means that people can discuss things good and bad about it. I thought you'd realise that being a mod and all http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Of course, there are also people here who will 'never leave' because no matter what pile of sh*te Oleg shovels into their mouth they'd still be thanking him while swallowing it down.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">We now have a patch that instead of killing you if you fly beyond the plane your in's envelope not only will you get a complimentary insta-recover but if you had some forward speed when you pushed it to far it will not only recover for you but also let you keep your energy as a bonus </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately, this was in use in 4.01. Now it's even more useful for evading attacks. Fine, you might say...but in reality you would have to make sure you had plenty of alt to recover. Funny..but I thought Oleg was selling a "simulation" (even though we know it's actually a game) here and we've gone backwards because you used to be able to get into spin that took some time to get out of. We also had it where it took longer to get out of them in some plane types (reknown for their treacherous handling) than others. Now you just put yourself in, let the plane recover all by itself in seconds and you're ready to defend another attack...or to go on the offensive. Oleg clearly makes the mistake of listening to the community too much...or his beta testers are influenced by comments on these forum. i.e. it wasn't so long ago that people were complaining that the 4.01 was 'too hard for them.'

Ta,
Norris

SeaFireLIV
10-22-2005, 04:13 AM
I bet Oleg and crew come here after every Patch release to have a good laff! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

TooCooL34
10-22-2005, 06:37 AM
Some guys never listen to others and desperately stick to initial impression, lol.
Hope you confess the love to 4.02 patch like many others.

Anyway, what's the problem with A6M2-21. Cause it's too good? At least I can hardly find a problem in enjoying it. I'm serious. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Airplane recover automatically from stall in A second? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif I got shot down by squadmate in Yak-3 because of uncontrollable stall&spin last night.

I got to admit you got your theories but calling it "arcade" again and again takes away any credibility in yours.

VW-IceFire
10-22-2005, 08:35 AM
If you guys are having control issues read my thread: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/8001085963

The 4.02m patch may not be as different in the FM department as you may think. You may blame yourself, your joystick or others may blame you too...but its not you.

Newtria
10-22-2005, 09:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
If you guys are having control issues read my thread: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/8001085963

The 4.02m patch may not be as different in the FM department as you may think. You may blame yourself, your joystick or others may blame you too...but its not you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

From what I see posted above, the majority of folks are not having stick issues. It's the lack of proper torque as in 4.01m, the ease of spin/stall recovery, and general AC performance/behavior that have people are miffed about the 4.02m.

I really appreciate the fact that 1C gives us an update every so often in the hopes of improving this sim(game). As in the past, sometimes their little experiments go wrong and we end up w/ a patch that is a step backwards This seems to be the case w/ 4.02m in my opinion. Listen, I don't like posting here to make a complaint, but if folks don't voice their opinions on each patch how can the sim actually improve? Isn't this the reason that the DM of the FW190 was improved? What gets me is the radical range of changes made to each patch when it concerns FM. It's as if the changes in the FM are not tweaked w/ a scapel, but w/ an axe.

Oh well, I salute those that post here to voice their opinions right or wrong. At least they have an opinion are not walking the company line in the hopes of being a 1C stooge.

Newtria

Jetbuff
10-22-2005, 10:37 AM
My reservations about the E-bleed in 4.02 are mounting. All planes seem a lot more willing to dump little to no E during violent maneuvers. Not particularly fond of the type of combat that evolves out of this new FM - a lot more about reflexes than actual combat principles.

LEBillfish
10-22-2005, 11:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TooCooL34:
Anyway, what's the problem with A6M2-21. Cause it's too good? At least I can hardly find a problem in enjoying it. I'm serious. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you flown it?

It now barely turns In fact I was even being out turned last night by P39's on the deck. Fly it, you tell me.

(side note...Saw a documentary last night where they went over a A6M2-5 Zero from nose to rump, then flew it......One fact they pointed out (as the pilot tests numerous old fighters)...Is that it out "rolled" Hellcats & the like.....This is not annecdotale...This was from him actually flying them)

Messaschnitzel
10-22-2005, 11:28 AM
I find that with the new 4.02 patch, the landings are much more controlled and smooth with only a small bounce or two. With 4.01 I would have more trouble with (approx. -10 degree approach 110-100 mph.) flaring at the last second before touching down, apparently not slowing down with the flare. It also felt like the plane would drop down suddenly with or without input at the last 10 feet to the runway. With 4.02 it seems that the "cushion of air" is modelled now. With 4.01 I would break the gear on a regular basis, and now with 4.02 I have not broken any gear on the various planes that I have landed. So, the upshot of all this is 4.02 more accurate in the landing department, or is it more arcade-like in its characteristics than 4.01?

bodaw
10-22-2005, 11:30 AM
________________________________________________
I bet Oleg and crew come here after every Patch release to have a good laff!
________________________________________________

"Revenge of the Russians", that's for giving them broken and stripped up airplanes during WW2 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

On a side note; thank you Oleg and 1C for this wonderful patch. I'm enjoying and loving it every flight. Now I don't have to worry about E-bleed, inertia, torque and whole other bunch of other nonsense physics garbage. Heck, if we wanted those we would have bought a flight sim instead of a game.

Now I just throttle to the wall, yank, bank and blow away every poor soul that flies through the path of my gunsights. I call it, Duke'em Nuke'em on wings.

Oh also thank you for customizing the 109 manual prop. pitch for us slider users. Now when we switch to manual it doesn't over rev. like it used to, thank you Oleg.

But you didn't listen to our requests for the Sidewinder missiles, oh well, BOB2 perhaps?

Loving it.

Udidtoo
10-22-2005, 12:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TooCooL34:
Some guys never listen to others and desperately stick to initial impression, lol.
Hope you confess the love to 4.02 patch like many others.

Anyway, what's the problem with A6M2-21. Cause it's too good? At least I can hardly find a problem in enjoying it. I'm serious. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Airplane recover automatically from stall in A second? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif I got shot down by squadmate in Yak-3 because of uncontrollable stall&spin last night.

I got to admit you got your theories but calling it "arcade" again and again takes away any credibility in yours. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You could always challenge me to post tracks like always happens in these events or you could just easily try this.

1.Start a QMB at 1000 ft 2.point the nose at the ground and apply left or right rudder steadily increase rudder as you dive. 3.As you reach around 250 mph release rudder and then full opposite rudder hard, simultaneously yank on the stick back and towards the rudder your using. 4. don't touch a control. Just sit and marvel at your new found skills..

Also good luck with some of the lighter nimble planes and even some not so nimble. In a Buffalo for example its next to impossible. It might flip on its back but then it flips right back over. Now you could throw down the " supply tracks" gauntlet but wouldn't it be easier to try my 'theory' yourself?and btw where did I use the word arcade? Don't put words in my mouth and then discuss credibility son.

I don't have any other issues with the game just this one 'Nit Picking one' If it was an arcade, which I don't call it then even a little kid could grab it and have success. Its not a bad thing to have game status applied to a product.It still takes some savvy to have success in a HL setting but the worry of "Am I close to a stall" has been removed. Along with, for me at least it Simm status. For folks that like the full switch settings stall & spins was always a must use to qualify for 'Realistic flying' Now it can be left on and those who can't handle a plane on the edge an still maintain control can pat themselves on the back and pretend it was ability that didn't put their plane in the ground.

Now I'm of to try and enjoy the other aspects of this game I still love but I will also be flying down the list from the P-39's on down. Still have a lot of theory to go. If I do have to bother to learn and post tracks its not going to look much ike a theory but more like a fact. A fact that I will live with btw but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

Clan_Graham
10-22-2005, 12:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Udidtoo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TooCooL34:
Some guys never listen to others and desperately stick to initial impression, lol.
Hope you confess the love to 4.02 patch like many others.

Anyway, what's the problem with A6M2-21. Cause it's too good? At least I can hardly find a problem in enjoying it. I'm serious. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Airplane recover automatically from stall in A second? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif I got shot down by squadmate in Yak-3 because of uncontrollable stall&spin last night.

I got to admit you got your theories but calling it "arcade" again and again takes away any credibility in yours. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You could always challenge me to post tracks like always happens in these events or you could just easily try this.

1.Start a QMB at 1000 ft 2.point the nose at the ground and apply left or right rudder steadily increase rudder as you dive. 3.As you reach around 250 mph release rudder and then full opposite rudder hard, simultaneously yank on the stick back and towards the rudder your using. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Say what ?????????
Do you think that any pilot in real life would ever even consider trying that move ???????

civildog
10-22-2005, 01:05 PM
I agree with Udidtoo:

Too many of the differences between the capabilities of the various planes that allowed you to use your planes' strengths against their weakness, etc, are now levelled out. Now it seems that the only real differences are that some planes are fatser, some have more ammo, and some tkae a little more punishment.

I can still tumble a Cobra, but it takes a deliberate effort on my part and it's pretty hard to do. I can push one through a full-on negative gee roll for two or more revolutions before I get it to even start to stall. But then it just bobs up like a cork most of the time anyway. Couldn't do that before, it would've been suicidal.

I can hang the plane on it's prop until the airspeed drops all the wat down to 150kph before it starts a tailslide - which then doesn't require any of the finesse I had to use for the last couple of years of playing this game while flying the Cobras. I haven't tried the 63 yet, but I magine it's even more arcadish.

I do really like the 190's, even more than before, the things are rockets. The roll rate is like an F-16 and it can run away from anything. On the other hand I no longer think it matters if my usual rides don't have the heavy guns the 190 does (and I always had a little Wurgerenvy about that) because as Leadspitter pointed out: (paraphrased)

any plane can be downed in a 4-5 second gun pass

, to which I add that the above statement can be done with any gun in the game now, too. Even the BB guns in the 39-N-1's wings will kill a 190 and thst's just wrong.

Maybe this is really just a Jane's VVS Fighters survey "sim" now?

Udidtoo
10-22-2005, 01:07 PM
Clan G. I would certainly hope not because if they did they almost certainly paid for it with their lives but thank you for helping me illustrate my point.

Its just the simple way to induce a stall( I didn't think this would need explanation) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif and show how easily the planes recover their own flight without aid. You can always fly around on HL or in a Campaign until you accidentally stall but its much easier to QMB with the method

civildog
10-22-2005, 01:08 PM
Clan_Graham....
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> quote:
Originally posted by Udidtoo:

quote:
Originally posted by TooCooL34:
Some guys never listen to others and desperately stick to initial impression, lol.
Hope you confess the love to 4.02 patch like many others.

Anyway, what's the problem with A6M2-21. Cause it's too good? At least I can hardly find a problem in enjoying it. I'm serious. Indifferent

Airplane recover automatically from stall in A second? Profile I got shot down by squadmate in Yak-3 because of uncontrollable stall&spin last night.

I got to admit you got your theories but calling it "arcade" again and again takes away any credibility in yours.



You could always challenge me to post tracks like always happens in these events or you could just easily try this.

1.Start a QMB at 1000 ft 2.point the nose at the ground and apply left or right rudder steadily increase rudder as you dive. 3.As you reach around 250 mph release rudder and then full opposite rudder hard, simultaneously yank on the stick back and towards the rudder your using.



Say what ?????????
Do you think that any pilot in real life would ever even consider trying that move ??????? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
.................................................. ...............

That's exactly Udidtoo's point: that if a sim is realistic then doing suicidal things in it should have realistically suicidal results. This one no longer does so it's not a realistic sim anymore.

TooCooL34
10-22-2005, 01:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TooCooL34:
Anyway, what's the problem with A6M2-21. Cause it's too good? At least I can hardly find a problem in enjoying it. I'm serious. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you flown it?

It now barely turns In fact I was even being out turned last night by P39's on the deck. Fly it, you tell me.

(side note...Saw a documentary last night where they went over a A6M2-5 Zero from nose to rump, then flew it......One fact they pointed out (as the pilot tests numerous old fighters)...Is that it out "rolled" Hellcats & the like.....This is not annecdotale...This was from him actually flying them) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I really hate to say this but..
Please, check your skill and learn to fly, sir!!(or should I say ma'am?)
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

I patiently tested some fighter's turn rate and turn stability with track and stop watch.

Starting altitude was almost sea level and fuel was 50%. (You know, 50% is big disadvantage for Zeros since it has such long fuel duration. But it showed best turning ability regardless.)
Initial corner speed was from 310 to 380 according to fighter type & year. Tested various corner speed to get unbiased result.
Thou values below are not absolute, you can compare each other easily.

type ------ 360deg turn time ----- turn stability
A6M2-21 ---- 12~13 avg ---- A+
P39N-1 ---- 15~17 avg ---- D
P39D-1 --- worse than N-1, just terrible
LA-5FN ---- 14~15 avg ---- B+
SpitMkIXe ---- 13~15 avg ---- B
A6M5-a ---- 12~13 avg ---- A
109G-6A/S ---- 15 avg ---- C

Your example, P-39 vs. A6M2-21 is not even a match. P-39 is dead duck at the moment it goes turn fight with zero.
Everybody has opinion. But your opinion is totally unfounded.
Last night P-39 turned inside me and shot me down so P-39 is uber turn plane blah blah..? totally baseless! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

P.S. for fellow pilots.
Flap turn is now bogus as it should be so don't try it in low level TnB combat, I recommend. If you don't believe, try it yourself.
In almost all fighter, speed decrease dramatically and turn stability goes worst and eventually become uncontrollable.

TooCooL34
10-22-2005, 01:42 PM
Maybe I shoudn't come here for a month or two.
This "Billfish syndrome" really makes me crazy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

LEBillfish
10-22-2005, 01:52 PM
Check my skill? *weg*....ok, uh huh, will do

Von_Rat
10-22-2005, 02:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">any plane can be downed in a 4-5 second gun pass </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



i might be wrong, but should any fighter be able to survive a 4-5 second gun pass????

if you hold on target for 4-5 seconds your hitting em with alot of ammo. even if its only two .50s.

OldMan____
10-22-2005, 02:43 PM
Due to lots of talk about this patch I had to find a way to test it even without my joy. So I am playing with an onld sidewinder 1 and a Logitech driving WHEEL!!! and rudders!!! Not very conventional but it works.


I got impressed as the patch is NOT BAD as some say. Quite liked it in fact. Not perfect (landings and takeoffs too easy even on planes that should have strong toruqe) But the high speed snap back is good (at least this time is not FW only.. all planes have it)

.50 stronger.. hope now US flyers stop whinnign and go play.. forget on this gun for once and all...

civildog
10-22-2005, 03:26 PM
Von_Rat <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">i might be wrong, but should any fighter be able to survive a 4-5 second gun pass????

if you hold on target for 4-5 seconds your hitting em with alot of ammo. even if its only two .50s.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

All things being equal 4-5 seconds of ammo ought to do it, yes...but not if it's say, a P-11 firing on a FW-190?

OldMan____
10-22-2005, 03:57 PM
2 .50 will hardly bring a FW190 down in 4 sec now.. it can get a fuel leak.. but to kill it be sure to bring at least 4x.50

VFA-195 Snacky
10-22-2005, 05:10 PM
I feel like a beta tester for BOB

Badsight.
10-22-2005, 05:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CivilDog:
Now it seems that the only real differences are that some planes are faster, some have more ammo, and some take a little more punishment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>in this patch it feels like the game has been "gameplay" balanced v4.02

imo

OMK_Hand
10-22-2005, 05:18 PM
I'm missing out on so much 'cos I'm still having a ball online...

I shoot, get shot at, struggle with trim, compensate for and use/fight against torque, fly the envelope, depart the envelope - I even flat spun a spitfire today - marvel at how I'm out-turned/climbed/flown by masters and mistresses who b*tch and moan how their plane is porked, get damage varying from scratched paint to blown to sh*t, land a damaged plane, crash a good plane...

To me, nothing has changed except I seem to somehow have more to think about.

Freelancer-1
10-22-2005, 07:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OMK_Hand:
I'm missing out on so much 'cos I'm still having a ball online...

I shoot, get shot at, struggle with trim, compensate for and use/fight against torque, fly the envelope, depart the envelope - I even flat spun a spitfire today - marvel at how I'm out-turned/climbed/flown by masters and mistresses who b*tch and moan how their plane is porked, get damage varying from scratched paint to blown to sh*t, land a damaged plane, crash a good plane...

To me, nothing has changed except I seem to somehow have more to think about. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gifWell said. At the end of the day it's about how much you enjoyed yourself.

I'm still having a ball and that is all that is really important, IMO.

sunflower1
10-22-2005, 08:12 PM
Seems to me that somebody who "doesn't mind" a flight model that doesn't include any viscious flight characteristics that existed in real life needs to use discretion when using the word "sissie."

Ob.Emann
10-22-2005, 08:23 PM
Seems to me that a moderator of a forum that allows and encourages the opinions of others needs to use discretion when using the word "sissie".

Sounds like ad-hominem dismissiveness to me, not debate.

Archangel2980
10-23-2005, 12:18 AM
I guess we'll have to just go with the flow for now on.

It's one giant sh*t sandwich and everybody is going to have to take a bite out of it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

LEBillfish
10-23-2005, 12:59 AM
Fresh re-install.........

HUGE difference!

In fact, even had features like QMB start alt down to 100m added. Never had it before.

Time to see what this patch is about.

WUAF_Toad
10-23-2005, 05:27 AM
This patch makes me feel like I'm playing "IL2 Turbo"... looking forward to the "Super IL2 Turbo" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

joeap
10-23-2005, 05:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Fresh re-install.........

HUGE difference!

In fact, even had features like QMB start alt down to 100m added. Never had it before.

Time to see what this patch is about. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So there is something about corrupt patch installs eh? Glad you got your problems sorted. BTW LEBillfish, tried the Zero as you suggested something wrong with it and it's turning and found nothing. Then I see what you did today...but try it and tell me if you think it's MGs have changed?

bazzaah2
10-23-2005, 06:07 AM
I like all the fine trim adjustments but still wonder why I have rudder pedals. They do make a nice foot rest, mind. I guess that's what they're for. Wow, I've answered my own question.

han freak solo
10-23-2005, 07:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Archangel2980:
It's one giant sh*t sandwich and everybody is going to have to take a bite out of it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You need to go to a different deli! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

han freak solo
10-23-2005, 07:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bazzaah2:
I like all the fine trim adjustments but still wonder why I have rudder pedals. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To go faster!! Pump those pedals harder to add a few knots, dude!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Clan_Graham
10-23-2005, 07:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VFA-195 Snacky:
I feel like a beta tester for BOB </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I know what you mean.
I feel like a Beta tester for CFS4.

OMK_Hand
10-23-2005, 10:10 AM
I feel my beta rhythms (in the CA1 region of the hippocampus) are being sorely tested...

Bearcat99
10-23-2005, 12:46 PM
I stand by what I said.... legitimate complaints whether I agree with them or not are not what I am referring to.... but when people start with the "Oleg you ruined the sim" and "Oleg caved into the American markets.." and "I am leaving this sim for good because now it is just sooooo baaaaaad."... It is whining. Plain and simple. I never called anyone a sissy. I said some folks act like sissies everytime a new patch comes out with the crying and complaining... I see nothing wrong with that... If YOU dont like what I said then fine..... good for ya. No sweat off my nose.... but dont try to hit me with that "Im a mod so I should be nice nonsense..." I get sick of folks with more negative than positive input....all the time. If you don't fit into that category then... obviously the post wasnt directed at you. Many of the problems with .02 have been adjusted and corrected with a few tweaks of the stick settings..... to complain is one thing.. but to always complian... and insult.. partularly the developer of the sim... just gets tiring.

BfHeFwMe
10-23-2005, 12:47 PM
What? Last patch had E bleed? Than where did all those helicopters come from? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

GR142-Pipper
10-24-2005, 03:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
.....Many of the problems with .02 have been adjusted and corrected with a few tweaks of the stick settings. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>It might help things a bit if the developer outlined exactly what changed in the software....like just about every other software company does when a revision is released.

GR142-Pipper

WOLFMondo
10-24-2005, 04:04 AM
Oleg makes it no more clear than someone like EA does when they patch a game.

WTE_Ibis
10-24-2005, 04:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I stand by what I said.... legitimate complaints whether I agree with them or not are not what I am referring to.... but when people start with the "Oleg you ruined the sim" and "Oleg caved into the American markets.." and "I am leaving this sim for good because now it is just sooooo baaaaaad."... It is whining. Plain and simple. I never called anyone a sissy. I said some folks act like sissies everytime a new patch comes out with the crying and complaining... I see nothing wrong with that... If YOU dont like what I said then fine..... good for ya. No sweat off my nose.... but dont try to hit me with that "Im a mod so I should be nice nonsense..." I get sick of folks with more negative than positive input....all the time. If you don't fit into that category then... obviously the post wasnt directed at you. Many of the problems with .02 have been adjusted and corrected with a few tweaks of the stick settings..... to complain is one thing.. but to always complian... and insult.. partularly the developer of the sim... just gets tiring. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

.

Bearcat I respect you and always have but you are starting to sound like an apologist and in denial. It is plain for all to see that this is a try out for the BOB and I can understand that.
However whilst using us to try out the new fms dms etc etc UBI is causing alot of angst and even rebellian among otherwise loyal customers.
Now I know it's only my opinion but I will state it never the less. UBI would do well to the leave this sim where it was or is and just give us a paid addon.
It seems to me that loyal customers are fed up with being used as guinea pigs and just want the sim that they paid good money for to be left at its peak and not continually used as a vehicle for BOB experimentation.
With respect and without prejudice.
Cheers, Ibis.

.

civildog
10-24-2005, 10:18 PM
I'm repeating this here for Bearcat's benfit because I think he misunderstands the smoldering resentment this crazy patching/testing/2 steps forward and 1 back creates in the average player who loves this game, but hates what is happening to it:

(and I agree 110% with what Ibis says...I said it earlier, but I guess that makes me one of the sissified whiners, eh Bearcat?)

To be fair, after I did a full-on Falcon 4.0 style delete, scrub the registry clean, full reinstall with reboots between patches....plus fiddle with the stick settings I finally have the thing more or less working. Thank God for my experiences with Falcon (and the extreme patience that created in me for sloppy coding resulting in way too many patches) or I'd have used this game for a coaster.

The Good:
It's good to see that kills can again be made with the 37mm in the Cobras. One or two hits and most planes are either going down or running for Mama.

I also approve of the toned down impact graphics for the solid slug rounds. It no longer makes every hit look like an explosion.

The .50's are spot on. They don't shoot like lasers but they don't scatter like buckshot, either.

I like the ground handling, but would actually prefer more consistent and realistic air handling perfected first since that's where I spend most of my time in a flight sim.

With respect to those experts like the LoneRanger one doesn't have to have hands-on experience with a P-40 to know how the aerodynamics work in a plane. Warbird performance is thoroughly documented and with my own flight time I can tell what the basics are enough to come to a reasonable conclusion. As a result...


The Bad:

This feels more like a survey sim from Janes than it ever did before. The planes feel way too similar, the only real differences are the different guns, and some take a little more punishment or go faster than others.

One of the 2 reasons I bought this game and have followed it since the first demo for IL2 (before that I flew Flanker from it's infancy as well) was to fly the Cobras. They are no longer the murderbirds they used to be. They are no more difficult to fly than any other plane in the game, it's easier to kill things with them than before because they are so easy now, and the fun of handling a plane well that tries so hard to kill you is gone. In 3.04...moderately realistic flight in a Cobra..4.01 realistic enough to stand your hair on end...4.02 forget it; it's just a slow plane with a big cannon.

Cobras now rarely turn-stall, I have to work really hard to get one to tumble or flatspin - and if I didn't know they did that at all I probably would never have it happen. I can put one into a negative gee roll with at least 3 or 4 rotations pushing so hard I'm in red out the whole time and it still bobs up like a cork rather than tumble. That is flat out wrong.

The other reason I bought this game was to use the IL2 line. In 3.04 they were slow (the 2-seaters) and reasonably maneuverable in a lumbering way. If you had enough speed up you could strafe, pitch up and tailslide (but you had to be on it every second at only 500m) reversing back to another gunpass. In 4.01 you couldn't do that, the plane tried to roll it's nose into the ground in a turn, and it flew like a tank....4.02 it's slow, rolls better than before, but it retains so little E that you can't take advantage of the better maneuverability.

Those two examples (and I have flown every plane in the game a lot, don't think I'm narrow-minded)) sum up my main issue: the patches have made so many changes back and forth, up and down, you can no longer trust the FM or DM on any plane. There used to be a lot of difference between planes, even between variants within a family of planes, but not that much anymore. That's what I mean when I say it's turning into just another survey sim. Always a danger when you have so many planes in one package.

The game seemed most stable in FM with 4.01 and the DM from 3.04.

I actually resent having this game used as a testbed for the future BOB. I paid for a stable program. I fully understand that today patches are part of the deal, but I didn't see anywhere on the box that at any time a patch might screw the thing up so much due to it really being a beta FM for a future release and that I should feel all warm and gooey about it. That sort of thing is better handled by providing a demo or beta test package that those interested could play with and rest of us could go on enjoying the game we paid for. I would very happily pay for any add-on CD's to get those planes and maps I'm interested in as long as it meant that any patches would be to fix the game - expanding it only after the modified FM/DM's specific to this game (not to future releases) were fully tested and enough of a change to bother with.

I already went through this kind of nonsense with Falcon, another game I played every iteration of all the way to the Holy Grail (at the time) of Falcon 4.0, only to have it patched to an unwieldy mess then have the developer lose interest, leaving me with cr@p. I am starting to wonder if the same isn't happening with FB/PF, too.

HeinzBar
10-24-2005, 10:54 PM
S!,
While I don't agree 100% w/Civildog's opinion, I believe he sums it up nicely. While I disagree about the .50s being spot on, I do agree w/ Civildog being spot on w/ this paragraph: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Those two examples (and I have flown every plane in the game a lot, don't think I'm narrow-minded)) sum up my main issue: the patches have made so many changes back and forth, up and down, you can no longer trust the FM or DM on any plane. There used to be a lot of difference between planes, even between variants within a family of planes, but not that much anymore. That's what I mean when I say it's turning into just another survey sim. Always a danger when you have so many planes in one package.

The game seemed most stable in FM with 4.01 and the DM from 3.04 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good post CivD

HB

Bearcat99
10-25-2005, 08:23 AM
Fair enough guys... but I actually think it is the best it has ever been..... FMs, DMs and AI wise. I had some issues with .01.... but 95% of them have been corrected in .02.... and IMO the fidelity of the sim is still viable....

Just to reiterate since a lot of people have taken my statement so personally.... I am talking about the people here who constantly, patch after patch after patch have nothing positive to say... rarely if ever.. those are the folks I am referring to as acting like sissies.... Now I know Forrest Gump's mama said "Beauty is as beauty does.." but I havent called anyone a sissy.. or a sissified whiner.... and thats the last I am going to say on the subject. In the future I will be a bit more selective on my choice of words...

As far a What CD said.....about the 4.01- 3.04 thing.... I here ya.. but I just like the current one better. I think the Mustang's acceleration is better (along with a few other planes) in this one and the fact that the wings dont fall off as easily (but they still do.. which IMO is good) and the improved tourque makes this FM better than .01.... now certain planes are no longer almost invulnerable to .50 fire... like some were or so it seemed in 3.04.. at least to me. Plus the AI is better here as well. I fly offline and online.. and mostly coops so the AI is important to me.

msalama
10-25-2005, 10:03 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

Quote: "...who constantly, patch after patch after patch have nothing positive to say..."

Spot on BC. All this overwhelming 24/7/365 negativity is something I find very revolting too...

NorrisMcWhirter
10-25-2005, 10:07 AM
A mod calling people names? Doesn't sound very professional to me.

Besides, BC, every patch is the 'best you've ever seen' so why should we be surprised if you think this is also?

Ta,
Norris

msalama
10-25-2005, 10:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">A mod calling people names? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And where exactly did he do that?

He's just fed up with all these bozos coming out of the woodwork every time a patch is released who never, ever, have ANYTHING positive to say.

And who can blame him for that?

JuHa-
10-25-2005, 10:17 AM
Roll inertia, where are you?

NorrisMcWhirter
10-25-2005, 10:18 AM
He was effectively calling people a sissy before - now he's backpeddling about it.

Perhaps if the age old problems were actually sorted out in one patch rather than glossing over them with new but often equally faulty things, people might be more postitive.

Ta,
Norris

OMK_Hand
10-25-2005, 01:06 PM
Well, they are sissies. And jessies. And whingers, whiners, moaners, na na na na na na...

For goodness sake...

danjama
10-25-2005, 01:07 PM
"Life is full, full of surprises"

msalama
10-25-2005, 02:28 PM
"Age old problems"?

What are those, and how many of them are _proven_ to be real problems, bugs, omissions & cetera? And how capable is the community - with its wildly contradicting & biased opinions and lack of real aviational knowledge - of even _defining_ something as an unambiguous and objective problem in the first place?

msalama
10-25-2005, 02:31 PM
PS. Of course there're things fXXXd in this sim, that much is definite. I just wouldn't ask a wahmbulance driver how to fix them, see http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif