PDA

View Full Version : Shaman balance issues.



Trenk2009
03-27-2018, 10:38 AM
1- Her melee dash shouldn't be cancellable. Considering how fast it goes it only make it a 50/50. That's dumb. There are plenty of ways to to get the bite in without doing that cancel crap.

2- All of her dashed and dodged attacks are crazy fast for some reason.

3- Her dodge recoverys are simply too low. If I dodge a dashing attack and goes for a light dodged attack with Orochi for instance, she shouldn't be able to freaking block it.



Either slow down her dashed attacks or up her recoverys. She can't keep going like this for ever.

Knight_Raime
03-27-2018, 11:49 AM
She needs the cancel. what other ways does she get bite?

They're not crazy fast. Her wild cats rage (forwad/backward dodge) speed is dictated by what side the attack comes from. her left is 600ms. top is 700ms and right is 500ms.
Her side dash attacks are 500ms. Bite/pounce itself is 400ms but with dodge time is 600ms.

Her dash recovery is 500ms.

She's easily dismantled by a patient player with decent reflexes.

pounce/bite can be dodged on reaction even if canceled. and doing so nets a GB for free on any character.
If it's done from distance it's super telegraphed. and if it's done close you can GB/light her out of the dodge to start bite/pounce.
Further more it's also easy to tell when she cancels what she's canceling. if her weapons are in her hands it's wildcats rage. if it's pounce/bite her weapons are sheathed.

Rage's tracking also depends on which side. Left rage is good at following left but not forward or right. vise versa for right rage. and top sucks at tracking on both sides but good for back tracking.
Since she can change the direction of her stance mid dodge and the variance of said attack trying to parry just isn't advisable. instead you just block from the fastest side and react block to the other 2 sides.

Bleed is hard to proc unless you're good at deflects. Zone can be comfortably blocked. If done she's forced to feint it because the ending 2 hits give a light parry punish. she won't feint to the side you blocked from as that's pointless. which leaves her top and opposite side. Opposite side mix ups have never tended to work well in FH. and top is the fastest. Knowing this you should be able to block the top soft feint. and heavy soft feint from neutral is easily seen. Only other reliable bleed is if you manage to net a GB. And since you don't get GB's on parries anymore good luck with that.

Finally her left unblockable heavy mix up is bad. She needs hit stun to force a reaction. this is typically done by WCR into it. If you block that attack any hero sans 2 can back dash to avoid both the unblockable and the soft feint into GB. Further more its really slow and telegraphed. Meaning reacting to either the UB or the soft feint into GB is easy. and dodging into a side heavy is just easily parried.

She's got a lot in her kit but it's all fairly counterable. She should receive some adjustments. but she's not that strong tbh.

Trenk2009
03-27-2018, 02:01 PM
1) She needs the cancel. what other ways does she get bite?

2) They're not crazy fast. Her wild cats rage (forwad/backward dodge) speed is dictated by what side the attack comes from. her left is 600ms. top is 700ms and right is 500ms.
Her side dash attacks are 500ms. Bite/pounce itself is 400ms but with dodge time is 600ms.

3) Her dash recovery is 500ms.

4) She's easily dismantled by a patient player with decent reflexes.

5) pounce/bite can be dodged on reaction even if canceled. and doing so nets a GB for free on any character.
If it's done from distance it's super telegraphed. and if it's done close you can GB/light her out of the dodge to start bite/pounce.
Further more it's also easy to tell when she cancels what she's canceling. if her weapons are in her hands it's wildcats rage. if it's pounce/bite her weapons are sheathed.

6) Rage's tracking also depends on which side. Left rage is good at following left but not forward or right. vise versa for right rage. and top sucks at tracking on both sides but good for back tracking.
Since she can change the direction of her stance mid dodge and the variance of said attack trying to parry just isn't advisable. instead you just block from the fastest side and react block to the other 2 sides.

7) Bleed is hard to proc unless you're good at deflects. Zone can be comfortably blocked. If done she's forced to feint it because the ending 2 hits give a light parry punish. she won't feint to the side you blocked from as that's pointless. which leaves her top and opposite side. Opposite side mix ups have never tended to work well in FH. and top is the fastest. Knowing this you should be able to block the top soft feint. and heavy soft feint from neutral is easily seen. Only other reliable bleed is if you manage to net a GB. And since you don't get GB's on parries anymore good luck with that.

8)Finally her left unblockable heavy mix up is bad. She needs hit stun to force a reaction. this is typically done by WCR into it. If you block that attack any hero sans 2 can back dash to avoid both the unblockable and the soft feint into GB. Further more its really slow and telegraphed. Meaning reacting to either the UB or the soft feint into GB is easy. and dodging into a side heavy is just easily parried.

9) She's got a lot in her kit but it's all fairly counterable. She should receive some adjustments. but she's not that strong tbh.

1) What way ? Any gb give a bite. Mix up with unblockable to get the gb ? mix up with heavys ? surprise your opponent by cancelling mid combo ? That's plenty enough. The simple fact that you're bleeding when facing a shaman already gives her a huge pressure advantage. Not to mention it's guaranteed on light parry and alost guaranteed on heavy parries...

2) I know the data. But with the range, it can simply feel as teleporting. I can't almost never parry them and often get hit by them if I'm not expecting them. same goes when I play her, few people manage to correctly block them, and I almost never got parried. Also, regardless of the range, 500ms for a dashing strike is still fast af. Also also, pounce/bbite is 400ms. Not 600ms. You can't take into account the 200ms of the dodge foward when it can be cancelled.

3) Which is to low for her insane range and speed on dashed abilities.

4) I actually rarely have issues fighting Shaman. The comments I'm making are purely objectiv.

5) 400ms on reaction lol. Sorry didn't know u were superman. Not to mention that with lag it can be anywhere from 400ms to 300ms. There are even a lot of times where you see the unblockable icon but it disapears. Lag plays a lot. Still anyway, 400ms for a cancellable, "infinite" range, 50 dmg and 20 heal + full stamina, melee move, is strong af. (P.S: I knew for the hand thing, thanks, but "easy to tell" wouldn't be the terminologie I'd use to looking at the hand of a shaman preparing her attack for maybe a fraction on sec beforeend ...)

6) I never mentioned tracking issues. Why telling me this ?

7) Bleed hard to proc ? Lol. Guaranteed on gb, deflect, side heavy parries, any light parries; plus follow up finisher, soft feint opener, zone cancel (all 3 of those being 400ms btw). That's already almost twice of the mix up potential of half of the cast.

8) A mix up can't be "bad" when it can't be actually punish. What you said is a way to neglect the potential damage of the unblockable into gb, but not punish it. Just like rowling away from a 50/50 doesn't make a 50/50 not a 50/50 anymore; backdashing isn't a solution to the mix up. Also, you can cancel your UB by a forward dash into 500ms heavy which is already hard enough to block out of neutral ... Not to mention you can also let your UB fly and react to the gb attempt of your backdashing opponent by following up witht he light, since it covers almost the entierty of the UB recovery frames.

9) I think Shaman kit is pure gold. I abosultely love her gameplay. But the issues I mentioned are still super real to me and need to be adressed. Honestly, playing with an uncancelable bite and bit higher recoverys wouldn't be much. Maybe buff her roll away to compensate if u want to.

BTTrinity
03-27-2018, 02:15 PM
Honestly, ever since Raime told me "Dont get worked up, be patient and youll pick her apart" I've valued those words and have been doing A LOT better against her by not letting my hatred get the better of me.

I still think her biggest issues are, bugged lunge attack indicators

Her throw distance combod with her bash being guaranteed after throw. Her throw distance still needs nerfing.

Knight_Raime
03-27-2018, 02:25 PM
1) What way ? Any gb give a bite. Mix up with unblockable to get the gb ? mix up with heavys ? surprise your opponent by cancelling mid combo ? That's plenty enough. The simple fact that you're bleeding when facing a shaman already gives her a huge pressure advantage.

2) I know the data. But with the range, it can simply feel as teleporting. I can't almost never parry them and often get hit by them if I'm not expecting them. same goes when I play her, few people manage to correctly block them, and I almost never got parried. Also, regardless of the range, 500ms for a dashing strike is still fast af. Also also, pounce/bbite is 400ms. Not 600ms. You can't take into account the 200ms of the dodge foward when it can be cancelled.

3) Which is to low for her insane range and speed on dashed abilities.

4) I actually rarely have issues fighting Shaman. The comments I'm making are purely objectiv.

5) 400ms on reaction lol. Sorry didn't know u were superman. Not to mention that with lag it can be anywhere from 400ms to 300ms. There are even a lot of times where you see the unblockable icon but it disapears. Lag plays a lot. Still anyway, 400ms for a cancellable, "infinite" range, 50 dmg and 20 heal + full stamina, melee move, is strong af. (P.S: I knew for the hand thing, thanks, but "easy to tell" wouldn't be the terminologie I'd use to looking at the hand of a shaman preparing her attack for maybe a fraction on sec beforeend ...)

6) I never mentioned tracking issues. Why telling me this ?

7) Bleed hard to proc ? Lol. Guaranteed on gb, deflect, side heavy parries, any light parries; plus follow up finisher, soft feint opener, zone cancel (all 3 of those being 400ms btw). That's already almost twice of the mix up potential of half of the cast.

8) A mix up can't be "bad" when it can't be actually punish. What you said is a way to neglect the potential damage of the unblockable into gb, but not punish it. Just like rowling away from a 50/50 doesn't make a 50/50 not a 50/50 anymore; backdashing isn't a solution to the mix up. Also, you can cancel your UB by a forward dash into 500ms heavy which is already hard enough to block out of neutral ... Not to mention you can also let your UB fly and react to the gb attempt of your backdashing opponent by following up witht he light, since it covers almost the entierty of the UB recovery frames.

9) I think Shaman kit is pure gold. I abosultely love her gameplay. But the issues I mentioned are still super real to me and need to be adressed. Honestly, playing with an uncancelable bite and bit higher recoverys wouldn't be much. Maybe buff her roll away to compensate if u want to.


1) Yeah and how do you expect to get a gb? her soft feints into Gb rarely work against people who just wait for her to do anything. Yes. The bleed is pressure. That's not enough though.

2) If you're attempting to parry WCR that's just your fault. As I tried pointing out due to the varrying factors on it you're not really supposed to parry it and punish it other ways. The range means nothing. If you're doing the attack from the edge of lock on range and the person is still eating the heavy they're bad. end of. It being 500ms on one side isn't a big deal when you can rest your guard on that side for majority of heros. other 2 sides are react blocked. Same way you deal with raider mix up. You appear to not understand. Her normal dodge is 500ms. she can cancel the dodge 200ms into it. Her bite/pounce animation is 400ms. That combined with the 200ms she just went through means from start of her movement to the end of the attack is 600ms.

3) As i've already discussed her range isn't hugely helpful and her speed is comparable. Not saying her recovery can't be nerfed. But it's not "insane"

4) I really doubt this. If you had an objective view you'd recognize the strength her kit has but also know that all of her mix ups have very strong punishes if read correctly by a player. Which was my entire point of my post. But you think she's above pk in duels so I don't even know why i'm having a discussion with you.

5) Again it's 600ms. Because of the first 200ms of the dodge with the 400ms of the actual attack. I dodge it consistently. if you don't that's your problem not mine. Lag/connection issues are not accounted for/considered when having a discussion about balance. You crutching on it is just fluff for your weak point.

6) Was attempting to explain exactly why the move is not meant to be parried on reaction and why the move itself is not as amazing as people make it sound.

7) Guaranteed on GB means nothing when you've no access to easy GB's anymore. I'd really love for you to show me a top tier player who reg deflects. None of the other ways you listed are guaranteed. (sans maybe the parries. i'll have to check that.) And appearently you just stopped reading because I explained both why the neutral soft feint and the zone feint are not great bleed options. And her bleed cancel is only 400ms if done from the top. If people are not blocking that against you you clearly don't play against good players.

8) If your mix up fails to give you of anything tangible then it's not a good mix up. End of. I don't have to punish you. The point of your mix up is to get damage on me or gain an advantage. By me avoiding it entirely your mix up has failed at it's job. that's like saying anything kensei can mix up with from neutral top heavy is good just because he can. even though a light can stuff literally anything he wants to mix up into. Or literally just dodging on reaction to the heavy indicator. (unless your hero has bad dodge recovery of course.) And yeah i'm just done after this. You clearly have zero fighter experience if you think it's still a 50/50 when rolling negates both options.

Back dashing absolutely is an option to the UB heavy mix up. There is literally video proof on the competitive reddit show casing that unless shaman gets hitstun on you prior to the UB going all heros sans 3 can escape it with a back dash. If you're that in tune with the comp community like you eluded to in another post you should have already seen that. You canceling out of the UB heavy into a forward dash 500ms is blockable. it comes from the same guard at that speed. So I can just rest my guard there.

I'm absolutely fine with nerfing her recovery to 600ms. and maybe some other ones. But getting rid of the cancel no. Never.

XJadeDragoonX
03-27-2018, 05:28 PM
I just think her dash attacks shouldn't be able to change directions. It should always come from the same direction

BTTrinity
03-27-2018, 05:54 PM
I just think her dash attacks shouldn't be able to change directions. It should always come from the same direction

This is a little crazy too, combod with the fact that she has the quickest gap closer.