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View Full Version : Kensei balancing issues.



Trenk2009
03-27-2018, 10:15 AM
1- His zone. Supposed to be 500ms, yet feels faster than warden and orochi 400 ms ones. What's going on here.

2- His dashes are too safe. The fact that he can time his heavy during the whole dodging period makes good Kensei completely unpunishable for dodging, especially considering that dodged attacks add a "second layer" of dodging to them, and that Kensei's one is SUPER LONG; and the fact that kensei got superior block during the whole durtion of the dodge.
The forward one, having all the points above, PLUS the unvulnerabilty to gb what-so-ever clearly is the strongest one.

3- Clearly the 1vX god. Each side attack of his basically being a zone attack considering the super wide aoe it covers.


Overall, the Kensei rework is pretty great. But not flawless. The 3 points above added to the Kensei incredibly long range makes him quite the pain in the *** to fight. Slow down his zone, make his dashes somewhat punishable and maybe reduced the damage of external attackers getting hit by side attacks.

Vakris_One
03-27-2018, 11:34 AM
1- His zone. Supposed to be 500ms, yet feels faster than warden and orochi 400 ms ones. What's going on here.

2- His dashes are too safe. The fact that he can time his heavy during the whole dodging period makes good Kensei completely unpunishable for dodging, especially considering that dodged attacks add a "second layer" of dodging to them, and that Kensei's one is SUPER LONG; and the fact that kensei got superior block during the whole durtion of the dodge.
The forward one, having all the points above, PLUS the unvulnerabilty to gb what-so-ever clearly is the strongest one.

3- Clearly the 1vX god. Each side attack of his basically being a zone attack considering the super wide aoe it covers.


Overall, the Kensei rework is pretty great. But not flawless. The 3 points above added to the Kensei incredibly long range makes him quite the pain in the *** to fight. Slow down his zone, make his dashes somewhat punishable and maybe reduced the damage of external attackers getting hit by side attacks.
1) Feels the same as Warden and Orochi zone speeds, don't know why you feel it is PK speed but it's not. Its speed isn't the problem, the extreme sliding reach is.

2) You do know the whole point of a dodge attack is to *dodge* an attack while striking back in one fluid move, yes? Kensei has always had this dodge attack and it's really getting old reading complaints from people who apparently never faced a single Kensei before Season 5.

a) It's the slowest most telegraphed dodge attack in the game.

b) Delaying the timing of the attack is pretty useless since you open yourself up to a GB for no good reason. Any attack that can be punished with a dodge attack doesn't require you to delay the strike. Play Kensei yourself and test this out. Honestly they can go ahead and remove the slight delay as it serves no purpose.

c) He does not have superior block "during the whole duration of the dodge." That makes no sense at all what you wrote. He gets superior block by dodging into an attack at the right time, same timing as a deflect. Superior block does not guarrantee Kensei's dodge attack because it is too slow. Superior block only really can guarrantee a forward dash GB. Try playing Kensei and test it if you doubt this.

d) I wonder how I get GBed during the start of my dodge attack if Kensei is invulnerable to it? Must be magic I guess. Please try GBing Orochi, Shaman, PK, Gladiator, Nobushi, Zerker and then come back and tell me that Kensei, the one with the slowest dodge attack startup animation, is apparently the only special one that's invulnerable to GB during dodge attack.

3) He's been good at 1vX since launch, in fact he was better at it before the rework because his dodge attack had a quicker recovery period. Launching side attacks wildly in a gank will just get you parried by the one you're targeting unless you're facing low skilled players who don't know what they're doing.

There's nothing wrong with a character just because they are now challenging to fight as apposed to easily disposed of by just face rolling on your keyboard. His zone's speed isn't the problem as I wrote before, it's the fact that it propels him forward over a large distance. They need to nerf the distance he travels forward when he uses the zone. His dashes are already as punishable as anyone elses that has a dash attack and your final suggestion is just laughable - reduce damage to external attackers in a gank? For real? In this meta you want MORE advantage given to attackers in a gank? It has never been easier to kill a single opponent via ganking them and you want to gimp a character from being able to at least force his assailants to engage two brain cells when ganking him. Parry is your friend against a Kensei using his slow af side attacks, learn to use it instead of asking for a nerf to your already outnumbered opponent.

Knight_Raime
03-27-2018, 11:57 AM
If it feels faster it's likely either due to the lack of having no muscle memory of his zone being fast. OR lack of lag comp makes it come out faster often. This happens with every hero often.

While i'd be fine with making it so he can't delay the dodge anymore it's really not needed. that's really only helpful in team fights. Kensei's dodge attack would still beat HL's mix up anyway. It's telegraphed to heck and is easy parry bait.

Kensei's main strength has always been his AoE. I see nothing wrong with it.

Trenk2009
03-27-2018, 01:11 PM
1) Feels the same as Warden and Orochi zone speeds, don't know why you feel it is PK speed but it's not. Its speed isn't the problem, the extreme sliding reach is.

2) You do know the whole point of a dodge attack is to *dodge* an attack while striking back in one fluid move, yes? Kensei has always had this dodge attack and it's really getting old reading complaints from people who apparently never faced a single Kensei before Season 5.

a) It's the slowest most telegraphed dodge attack in the game.

b) Delaying the timing of the attack is pretty useless since you open yourself up to a GB for no good reason. Any attack that can be punished with a dodge attack doesn't require you to delay the strike. Play Kensei yourself and test this out. Honestly they can go ahead and remove the slight delay as it serves no purpose.

c) He does not have superior block "during the whole duration of the dodge." That makes no sense at all what you wrote. He gets superior block by dodging into an attack at the right time, same timing as a deflect. Superior block does not guarrantee Kensei's dodge attack because it is too slow. Superior block only really can guarrantee a forward dash GB. Try playing Kensei and test it if you doubt this.

d) I wonder how I get GBed during the start of my dodge attack if Kensei is invulnerable to it? Must be magic I guess. Please try GBing Orochi, Shaman, PK, Gladiator, Nobushi, Zerker and then come back and tell me that Kensei, the one with the slowest dodge attack startup animation, is apparently the only special one that's invulnerable to GB during dodge attack.

3) He's been good at 1vX since launch, in fact he was better at it before the rework because his dodge attack had a quicker recovery period. Launching side attacks wildly in a gank will just get you parried by the one you're targeting unless you're facing low skilled players who don't know what they're doing.

There's nothing wrong with a character just because they are now challenging to fight as apposed to easily disposed of by just face rolling on your keyboard. His zone's speed isn't the problem as I wrote before, it's the fact that it propels him forward over a large distance. They need to nerf the distance he travels forward when he uses the zone. His dashes are already as punishable as anyone elses that has a dash attack and your final suggestion is just laughable - reduce damage to external attackers in a gank? For real? In this meta you want MORE advantage given to attackers in a gank? It has never been easier to kill a single opponent via ganking them and you want to gimp a character from being able to at least force his assailants to engage two brain cells when ganking him. Parry is your friend against a Kensei using his slow af side attacks, learn to use it instead of asking for a nerf to your already outnumbered opponent.

1) Maybe it's the reach combined to it then. I never seem to be able to block it even when I expect it.

2) No. Before season 5, Kensei had to commit for the attack quite early during the dodge. Now, he can delay it pretty much to the extend of his entire dodge. And that is the issue.

a) Most telegraphed ? Lol, the hit comes from the opposite direction from where he dodges but ok. Also it's slow but it's a heavy.

b) It doesn't "open up to a gb", delaying the dodge attack allows to punish someone going to a feint into gb by reacting to the gb. With any other hero, since you have to commit to your attack early, you can get baited and parried out of it. In Kensei's case, you can dodge the attack and simply wait: if your opponent does nothing cuz he was expecting you to dodge attack and wanted to parry it, you can simply do nothing and don't give him the attack; however if he decides to go for a gb, you can react to the gb sign by pressing attack and thus neglecting him. If you can good at this, you can dodge with basically no risk.

c) Yes he does. His guards stays up during the whole dash. No point in common with a deflect. At all. Just look at valkyrie's guard during a dash and you'll see the difference. Also I never said it was guaranteing anything, I just said that it makes the dash quite safe.

d) If you get gb out of the start of your dodge attack you must be either dodging for no reason at all, or you get caught by a very early soft feint. Kensei can only get gb out of the first 100ms of his dodge, after those 100ms he can start his dodge attack and can't get gb out of it.

3) I know that 1vX is one of his strongest tool, however, Nobushi's zone got nerfed to the ground because it was too wide, yet Kensei's side attack are almost as wild and didn't get nerfed. You can literraly be 90 of the opponent he's actually targeting and still get hit. I think it's quite dumb.


Your whole conclusion basically giving me advice to beat unskilled kensei is useless. At my level, baiting a dodged attack is close to impossible. They just dodge and react to what I do after wards. I need to feint twice in a row when I see him dodge to only hope getting him to overreact the attack. Giving this much energy to bait a heavy parry is dumb.

Trenk2009
03-27-2018, 01:16 PM
From patch note:

Dodge

Forward dodge's Superior Block phase now starts from 100ms to the end of the dodge, and now is always in the Top Stance.

Right dodge's Superior Block phase now starts from 100ms to the end of the dodge, and now is always in the Right Stance.

Left dodge's Superior Block phase now starts from 100ms to the end of the dodge, and now is always in the Left Stance.

Can perform your dodge attacks after Superior Blocking an attack (even if it’s late in the dodge).

Helm Splitter now can only be launched starting at 100ms (was starting at 300ms).

Grasping Pounce now can only be launched starting at 100ms (was starting at 0ms).


As I said, I wonder how you get catch so much during the 100ms of your super safe dodges....

BTTrinity
03-27-2018, 02:11 PM
1- His zone. Supposed to be 500ms, yet feels faster than warden and orochi 400 ms ones. What's going on here.

2- His dashes are too safe. The fact that he can time his heavy during the whole dodging period makes good Kensei completely unpunishable for dodging, especially considering that dodged attacks add a "second layer" of dodging to them, and that Kensei's one is SUPER LONG; and the fact that kensei got superior block during the whole durtion of the dodge.
The forward one, having all the points above, PLUS the unvulnerabilty to gb what-so-ever clearly is the strongest one.

3- Clearly the 1vX god. Each side attack of his basically being a zone attack considering the super wide aoe it covers.


Overall, the Kensei rework is pretty great. But not flawless. The 3 points above added to the Kensei incredibly long range makes him quite the pain in the *** to fight. Slow down his zone, make his dashes somewhat punishable and maybe reduced the damage of external attackers getting hit by side attacks.

Warden, Kensei, and Orochi all have 500 ms zones, PK has 400ms

As someone who plays a lot of Kensei lately, his dodge attack is much worse than other classes BECAUSE he can be GB'd out of it with ease.

The only changes I feel like kensei needs:

The only thing I think about his dash, is that his dash probably shouldnt be delay-able (Not being able to use it at the very end of a dodge, or everyones should be)

His zone should not move you forward to such a large extent

Vakris_One
03-27-2018, 02:19 PM
1) Maybe it's the reach combined to it then. I never seem to be able to block it even when I expect it.

2) No. Before season 5, Kensei had to commit for the attack quite early during the dodge. Now, he can delay it pretty much to the extend of his entire dodge. And that is the issue.

a) Most telegraphed ? Lol, the hit comes from the opposite direction from where he dodges but ok. Also it's slow but it's a heavy.

b) It doesn't "open up the gb", delaying the dodge attack allows to punish someone going to a feint into gb by reacting to the gb. With any other hero, since you have to commit to your attack early, you can get baited and parried out of it. In Kensei's case, you can dodge the attack a simply wait: if your opponent doesn't nothing cuz he was expecting you to dodge attack and wanted to parry it, you can simply do nothing and don't give him the attack; however if he decides to go for a gb, you can react to the gb sign by pressing attack and thus neglecting him. If you can good at this, you can dodge with basically no risk.

c) Yes he does. His guards stays up during the whole dash. No point in common with a deflect. At all. Just look at valkyrie's guard during a dash and you'll see the difference. Also I never said it was guaranteing anything, I just said that it makes the dash quite safe.

d) If you get gb out of the start of your dodge attack you must be either dodging for no reason at all, or you get caught by a very early soft feint. Kensei can only get gb out of the first 100ms of his dodge, after those 100ms he can start his dodge attack and can't get gb out of it.

3) I know that 1vX is one of his strongest tool, yet Nobushi's zone got nerfed to the ground because it was too wide, yet Kensei's side attack are almost as wild and didn't get nerfed. You can literraly be 90 of the opponent he's actually targeting and yet get hit. I think it's quite dumb.


Your whole conclusion basically giving me advice to beat unskilled kensei is useless. At my level, baiting a dodged attack is close to impossible. They just dodge and react to what I do after wards. I need to feint twice in a row when I see him dodge to only hope getting him to overreact the attack. Giving this much energy to bait a heavy parry is dumb.
1) It always comes out from the right (his left) but it does propel the Kensei a large distance forward. If you don't expect him to slide half a meter towards you then you could miss the block.

2) Indeed, he can now delay it but it doesn't give him an additional advantage to doing so.

a) Yes. It's telegraphed when you get used to it coming from the opposite direction. It's such a wide swing you can see his entire body winding up the animation. If you haven't fought a lot of Kensei it can be tricky but once you get used to it it becomes super obvious. It used to be a light, it still has the same damage now (20) just with increased stamina cost (upped to 12 from 6) and increased heavy recovery.

b) If you're feinting into GB you will get caught by any dodge attack in the game. Why do you expect to catch the Kensei when you cannot do this to any other dodge attack character? You feint and wait for a parry if you expect to punish a dodge attack or in Kensei's case you predict them and GB them within the first 100ms of their dodge attack startup. If Kensei is waiting to delay it you can GB him easier if you predict him or simply wait him out and parry him if he does for a swift strike.

c) I don't think you know what you're talking about here. His superior block is not an ongoing effect that lasts throughout his entire dodge animation. It only counts at the begining against a strike, just like deflect. Are you saying Kensei is immune to damage while dashing? Because that's not true for him or anyone else in the entire game.

d) Yes, he can get grabbed if someone predicted him or soft feinted into GB within the first 100ms of his dodge attack startup. It is theoretically possible against all dodge attacks but in my experience I find it works more consistently against Kensei. The other characters dodge attacks, minus Nobushi, seem to come out too fast for that. Without lag compensation it's hard to tell if all are equal in this.

3) Nobushi's zone damage and speed got nerfed because she could spam it from neutral against a gank. Kensei can't just whip out a fast sweeping attack from neutral. His zone is not optimal for 1vX and he needs to combo into his uninterruptile side finishers to get them out. I see no problem with Kensei continuing to be good in 1vX. If your issue is with Nobushi's zone nerf then call for her zone to be buffed instead of bringing down a character that has always been good in 1vX since its creation.

At "your level" if you're implying that you are at mid-high tier level then you really should know how to handle Kensei. I'd like to think I'm a low mid-tier player at best and I have no particular trouble reacting appropriately to whatever a Kensei can do against me.


From patch note:

Dodge

Forward dodge's Superior Block phase now starts from 100ms to the end of the dodge, and now is always in the Top Stance.

Right dodge's Superior Block phase now starts from 100ms to the end of the dodge, and now is always in the Right Stance.

Left dodge's Superior Block phase now starts from 100ms to the end of the dodge, and now is always in the Left Stance.

Can perform your dodge attacks after Superior Blocking an attack (even if its late in the dodge).

Helm Splitter now can only be launched starting at 100ms (was starting at 300ms).

Grasping Pounce now can only be launched starting at 100ms (was starting at 0ms).


As I said, I wonder how you get catch so much during the 100ms of your super safe dodges....
I wonder how you can call Kensei's dodge strikes "super safe" when they are the slowest and most telegraphed in the entire game so I guess we'll both remain bemused.