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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 07:22 PM
Does anyone know what tactics allied pilots used to shoot down 262s (apart from shooting when they were taking off/landing)? I have seen interviews with vets from both sides claiming that this took place.

Reason I ask is that I've been messing around with 262 on QMB and at high alts against Mustangs (on Ace) they can't get near me nor I them if I swap it around in, say, a P47. Any allied planes up to the job?

And I just thought Blue Oyster Cult did a song called Me 262 (though they didn't specify the variant).

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 07:22 PM
Does anyone know what tactics allied pilots used to shoot down 262s (apart from shooting when they were taking off/landing)? I have seen interviews with vets from both sides claiming that this took place.

Reason I ask is that I've been messing around with 262 on QMB and at high alts against Mustangs (on Ace) they can't get near me nor I them if I swap it around in, say, a P47. Any allied planes up to the job?

And I just thought Blue Oyster Cult did a song called Me 262 (though they didn't specify the variant).

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 07:46 PM
I usually try to do a quick roll to make him overshoot and by the time he passes over me I have my guns aimed and throw out as much lead as I can hoping to hit his glass jaw, his engines.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 08:20 PM
What allied pilots normally did was to wait around at the airfields for the Me262s to takeoff or land. The trouble is that this was called vulching and the pilots could be kicked from a server for using this tactic /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

To be able to fare well,
To avoid the frustration of misfortune,
That, in this world, is happiness.
-Euripides' Electra

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 08:29 PM
From an American Mustang pilot:



"From experience, one knew these aircraft were not as maneuverable as our propeller driven fighters. Since the 'Sound Barrier' had not been penetrated, both the jets and conventional aircraft were limited to their top speed. The Mustang's top speed was about 475 mph in level flight. In a dive it was red lined at 575 mph. Pilots constantly discussed the combat tactics to be used against the "blow jobs" (radio code word for a jet propelled aircraft). The common practice when attacked from the rear is to make a tight turn, the 'Luftberry Circle', causing the less maneuverable jets to fly past you. In a 'head on approach', the speed advantage for the enemy was gone. Of course the rate of closure could be as high as 1,100 mph then. A perfect situation would be if you were diving while he was climbing. The location of the jet fields were known. We used to spot them around Frankfurt and Stuttgart. Weather was also a problem to the enemy pilots. If it was clear and our flight path was within range of their bases you knew the jets would be up in numbers.'

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 08:29 PM
Me262 was very demanding and dangerous aircraft.Those who actually made it and took off the ground(poor training) didn`t know their jet.Most of the unexperienced could let go their energy advantage.Remember Me262 was infamous for it`s poor acceleration.I suspect Mustangs didn`t have much problem with bringing down slow Me262.

The most frequently used maneuver to get away was a dive.Any P47 could catch Me262 in dive and shred it to pieces.

"degustibus non disputandum"

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<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 08:31 PM
Find a copy of the book" GERMAN JETS VERSUS THE US ARMY AIR FORCE by Hess and you will have access to detailed accounts of all American jet kill claims.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 08:59 PM
Wasn't the first 262 downed by a Tempest?

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"The Eyeties are comparatively easy to shoot down. Oh, they're brave enough. In fact, I think the Eyeties have more courage than the Germans, but their tactics aren't so good. They are very good gliders, but they try to do clever acrobatics and looping. But they will stick it even if things are going against them, where as the Jerries will run." Beurling in Malta Spitfire

http://www.x-plane.org/users/butcherbird/202k1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 09:19 PM
The most effective tactic employed by Allied pilots by far was "vulching" and attacking a slow 262. Personally, I love to aim to aim for those mediocre Jumo engines and watch the fireworks with a few rounds from my P-47 in QMB/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/109K.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 10:44 PM
pdog1 wrote:
- Wasn't the first 262 downed by a Tempest?
-

no..the first Me-262 claimed shot down was on 8-28-44 by two P-47 pilots from 78 group. Major Myers and Lt Croy shot down a Me-262 which was piloted by Oberfeldwebel H. "Ronny" Lauer of 1/KG (J) 51. Lauer survived the shootdown. This kill was about 1 month or so prior to the first RAF 262 kill claim by a Spitfire.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 10:50 PM
Why dont u call up chuck yeager and ask him he shot a 262 down in his P51 during WWII. Maybe read his book he might talk about it in there.

I think the P51 is flawed in forgotten battles it is a much faster plane and move manueverable then the AI plane that appears in the game. Roll rate is way to slow in the game. Maybe the patch will change this flaw though.

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 12:38 AM
THe tactic was to dive on them as they could catch them in a dive at all but the Me262s top speed.

Of course the 262 pilot has to play ball as well and not climb or dive. If he was anything but an inexperienced pilot he would just climb away. If he was inexperienced then he would just turn and then the mustang could catch him.

Against experienced pilots I guess they would have to outnumber them to have any chance of downing them.

If the p51 pilots synchronised their attacks then they would be able to 'trap' the me262 pilot and get a few shots at him.

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 01:56 AM
Zyzbot wrote:
-
-
- no..the first Me-262 claimed shot down was on
- 8-28-44 by two P-47 pilots from 78 group. Major
- Myers and Lt Croy shot down a Me-262 which was
- piloted by Oberfeldwebel H. "Ronny" Lauer of 1/KG
- (J) 51. Lauer survived the shootdown. This kill was
- about 1 month or so prior to the first RAF 262 kill
- claim by a Spitfire.
-
-

Taken from "Me262" Vol 3 pg 372,373.

Lauer says he ran out of fuel and crashed. He was flying W.Nr. 170069 from 3./KG51 on Oct2 (or 3 - no date given but is after the attack on Grave, Oct 2) and the American pilots (Capt. VJ Beaudrault and Lt. R Teeter) were from the 365th FG. The first true a2a kill (W.Nr. 170093 of Hptm H-C Buttmann) was by Spifire IXs of #401 RCAF on 5 Oct in the Nijmegen area.

Anyone have a 3rd date?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

edit: should be Vol 2 not Vol 3


http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg


Message Edited on 07/31/0312:10AM by MiloMorai

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 03:33 AM
MiloMorai wrote:
-
- -
- Taken from "Me262" Vol 3 pg 372,373.
-
- Lauer says he ran out of fuel and crashed. He was
- flying W.Nr. 170069 from 3./KG51 on Oct2 (or 3 - no
- date given but is after the attack on Grave, Oct 2)
- and the American pilots (Capt. VJ Beaudrault and Lt.
- R Teeter) were from the 365th FG. The first true a2a
- kill (W.Nr. 170093 of Hptm H-C Buttmann) was by
- Spifire IXs of #401 RCAF on 5 Oct in the Nijmegen
- area.
-
- Anyone have a 3rd date?<img
- src="/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16
-

Appears to be a different incident but the same pilot. Beaudrault and Teeter did not recieve credit for a kill and their incident occurred in October not August. I quote from the book listed previously:

" Beadrault's victim was Lauer of 1.KG (J) 51, who attempted an unsuccessful bounce on the Ninth Air Force Thunderbolts in late August. In view of the fact that Beadrault did not open fire on the Me-262, he was not officially credited with a victory..."


The late August reference appears to be to the first Me-262 shootdown claim on August 28, 1944 which was credited to Myers and Croy.

"Myers reported:

While stooging around west of Brussels at 11,000 feet, I caught sight of what appeared to be a B-26, flying at about 500 feet and heading in a southerly direction, going very fast. I immediately started down to investigate and although diving at 45 degrees at 450 indicated air speed, I was no more than holding my own in regard to the unidentified aircraft.

When approximately 5,000 feet, nearly directly over the aircraft, I could see it was not a B-26...it was painted slate blue, with a long round nose, but I did not see any guns at this time, because he started evasive action, which consisted of small changes in direction not exceeding 90 degrees of turn. The radius of turn was very great, and although I was diving at around 450 IAS, i had very little difficulty cutting him off and causing him to change directions. he mad no effort to climb or turn more than 90 degrees at any time. I closed to within 2,000 feet above him and directly astern and had full power on during a 45 degree dive in an effort to close.

At that distance, I could easily see the similarity between the aircraft and the recognition plates of the Me-262. with full power and the advantage of altitude, I gradually started to close in on the E/A and drew within 500 yards astern. I was about to open fire when the E/A cut his throttle and crash landed in a plowed field.He hit the ground just as I fired so I continued to fire until within 100 yards of him, observing many strikes around the cockpit and jet units. It skidded over several fields and came to rest and caught fire. The E/A was burning brightly and giving off great clouds of black smoke. i claim one Me-262 destroyed,shared with Lt M.D. Croy , Jr my no. 4 man.


First or not...there it is!

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 01:31 PM
bazzaah2 wrote:
- Does anyone know what tactics allied pilots used to
- shoot down 262s (apart from shooting when they were
- taking off/landing)? I have seen interviews with
- vets from both sides claiming that this took place.
-
-
Found some more info for you:

"New tactics were clearly needed in order to deal with the jet-powered threat. Drawing on the lessons learned during the debriefing of returning American pilots, USAAF headquarters published a confidential report (#45-102) on German jet-propelled aircraft on 10 February 1945. This document gave fighter pilots sound advice on ways to survive encounter with the jet.

For example, pilots were advised to enter into a turning battle if attacked, as it was discovered that the jet was not nearly as agile or maneuverable as a conventional fighter.

There were other problems with the aircraft themselves. The Mk-108 cannons were prone to jams, and the engines were extremely short-lived by any standard of measurement -- usually requiring replacement at least every 25 hours. It was commonplace for 262s to return from a mission and land on a single engine. Although engine replacements were easily and quickly accomplished, this put a further strain on a very limited pool of resources.

The Allies were quick to discover that the jet had an Achilles Heel, and adopted a technique known as "rat catching." The 262 required very long takeoff rolls and landing runs, during which it was defenseless. "

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 01:54 PM
thanks for the input guys.

i flew a bit more with the 262 last night - keep high E and it's great (offline) against most planes, esp. Pe 8 with escorts (as B17 substitute). will try P47 up high and see if i can use some of those tactics above, though P47s were sitting ducks.

Even had a few engine failures (just cut out, without flaming up), wouldn't glide for sh*t though so hope that and P47 generally to be remedied in patch. This game is so good sometimes with stuf like that.

One other thing, if you keep E high at high alt (7500m) the FM then seems OK to me. Generally, you'd expect less manoeuverability up high as air density is lower, right?

Some here seem to think it's not so good but even now you get great speed up there and can be a blast in QMB.

Can't say I stalled to speak of so what's the story with the high altitude modelling?