PDA

View Full Version : 109K vs La7 @ 5-6.5 KM



XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 04:38 AM
109K has better climb and dive. Turns about the same. What was odd was in an equal dive the La7 could pull out into a verticle climb much much much faster than the 109K, the elevator was very heavy. Historical? (I'm asking real question, because I dont know, and speeds weren't high IAS so I wonder why elevator was so unresponsive)

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 04:38 AM
109K has better climb and dive. Turns about the same. What was odd was in an equal dive the La7 could pull out into a verticle climb much much much faster than the 109K, the elevator was very heavy. Historical? (I'm asking real question, because I dont know, and speeds weren't high IAS so I wonder why elevator was so unresponsive)

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 06:45 AM
IN FB 190F8 = 500KM/H ; JANE'S 190F8 = 645KM/H
IN FB 109K4 = 460KM/H ; JANE'S 109K4 = 685KM/H
IN FB YAK9U = 550KM/H ; JANE'S YAK9U = 448KM/H
IN FB LA7 3x20 = 550KM/H ; JANE'S LA7 3x20 = ?

IN THIS CASE A REAL SPEED FOR 109 WILL MAKE DIFERENCE NOT ONLY FOR STALL BUT ALSO FOR THE BATTLE.
IN THE LAST PACH ALL THE GERMANS PLANES HAD BEEM REDUCED IN YOUR SPEED.


(Jane's, FIGHTING AIRCRAFT OF WORLD WAR II;crecent books : NEW YORK)

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 06:51 AM
Elfunko wrote:
- 109K has better climb and dive. Turns about the
- same. What was odd was in an equal dive the La7
- could pull out into a verticle climb much much much
- faster than the 109K, the elevator was very heavy.
- Historical? (I'm asking real question, because I
- dont know, and speeds weren't high IAS so I wonder
- why elevator was so unresponsive)

Yup the elevator was heavy on all 109 models at high speeds... at 400mph+ the stick is said to feel like it was in cement.. Now even with force feedback they can not model that well, so what they do is scale your inputs... ie full deflection of your JS does not give you full el deflection.





<div style="background:#222222;color:#e0e0e0;font-size:24px;font-weight:bold;font-face:courier;"> TAGERT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?
</div>
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=forum
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=discussion

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 07:44 AM
tagert wrote:
- Elfunko wrote:
-- 109K has better climb and dive. Turns about the
-- same. What was odd was in an equal dive the La7
-- could pull out into a verticle climb much much much
-- faster than the 109K, the elevator was very heavy.
-- Historical? (I'm asking real question, because I
-- dont know, and speeds weren't high IAS so I wonder
-- why elevator was so unresponsive)
-
- Yup the elevator was heavy on all 109 models at high
- speeds... at 400mph+ the stick is said to feel like
- it was in cement.. Now even with force feedback they
- can not model that well, so what they do is scale
- your inputs... ie full deflection of your JS does
- not give you full el deflection.


Don't forget to add that this is solely your oppinion, with no relation with the real plane.

Bf-109 high speed elevator forces were excellent compared with any plane of the war. Aileron forces at high speed were good for F and later models.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

Message Edited on 09/23/0302:20AM by Huckebein_FW

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 09:51 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- tagert wrote:
-- Elfunko wrote:
--- 109K has better climb and dive. Turns about the
--- same. What was odd was in an equal dive the La7
--- could pull out into a verticle climb much much much
--- faster than the 109K, the elevator was very heavy.
--- Historical? (I'm asking real question, because I
--- dont know, and speeds weren't high IAS so I wonder
--- why elevator was so unresponsive)
--
-- Yup the elevator was heavy on all 109 models at high
-- speeds... at 400mph+ the stick is said to feel like
-- it was in cement.. Now even with force feedback they
-- can not model that well, so what they do is scale
-- your inputs... ie full deflection of your JS does
-- not give you full el deflection.
-
-
- Don't forget to add that this is solely your
- oppinion, with no relation with the real plane.
-
- *Bf-109 high speed elevator forces were excellent
- compared with any plane of the war. Aileron forces
- at high speed were good for F and later models.*

(I'll add it for you, then. "Don't forget to add that this is solely your oppinion, with no relation with the real plane." hucky
-
- <center> <img
- src="http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-m
- ain.jpg"> </center>
-
- Message Edited on 09/23/03 02:20AM by
- Huckebein_FW


I believe I've already read a thread on here about this subject, including accounts of LW pilots talking about the heavy, high speed characteristics of the Bf 109, including a German ace, diving away from some pursuers, and almost not pulling out.... The Fw 190 and Jug both had substantial advantages over the Me 109 in high speed elevator response.


Good hunting,
Cajun76

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 10:38 AM
Not true I've read actual veterans stories (lots of different stories). One of which involved a P-47 diving on a German airbase. He was the last one of his flight to make his attack run so he came in hot...too hot. As the AA gets better with every plane that goes by.
As he dove in towards the target suddenly the nose of the jug pulled itself down. He checked and was doing 450mph, and couldn't budge the stick. The only thing that saved him was remembering his flight instructor had told him in these kinds of situations you can use the elevator trim.

So he cranked back on the elevator trim, and yanked on the stick as hard as he could. As his airspeed bled back off he regained control. Yet it clearly shows that at 450mph not only is the Jug's elevator impossible to move. It also suffers similar overspeed problems indicated by the sudden nosing over.

I'll find the link, but I found it before easy doing a search on MSN for "P-47 war stories"


Edit: I went and re-checked my sources. He was at 600+ not 450.

There's also an interesting story about a P-51 who dove on a jug thinking it was a FW-190, and a P-47 who in return turned on the P-51 thinking it was a BF-109. The P-47 riddled the P-51 with rounds until it pulled out vertical from behind his wingman. He then saw the square wingtips, and tail. The pilot return to base, but his P-51 didn't make all the way home.

Message Edited on 09/23/0309:56AM by Hopperfly22

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 10:42 AM
- Don't forget to add that this is solely your
- oppinion, with no relation with the real plane.
-
- Bf-109 high speed elevator forces were excellent
- compared with any plane of the war. Aileron forces
- at high speed were good for F and later models.


Especialy @ Altitude

<center><font size="7" color="red">Arcade Mode Inabled[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 12:17 PM
Yes, 600+ is well above the 500mph max dive limit (In the manual) of a Jug. Republic and the USAAF raised this limit several times, as high speed modifications were made. He was lucky he looked at the spedometer and remembered his training. Many pilots were lost this way in Jugs, before they knew how to properly dive the powerful and heavy beast. However, I'd like to see a 109 pull out of a 600mph+ low alt dive using trim.... sounds like a lawndart situation to me. (Trying to get back on track....) I'm only using the Jug as a comparision. The subject is the 109s, and their lack of response at high speed. The original question was about La7 and 109 handling at high speed and alt. 6.5 KM is above an La7s' engines optimal altitude, but aerodynamicaly, the La7 should do just fine. Bf 109s are notorious for heavy controls at high speed:

Taken From "In the Cockpit", story by Frank Osman
http://www.214th.com/ww2/germany/me109/

Although the Gustav climbed fairly steeply and rapidly, it was tedious on the controls both in the climb and in the dive. Not being fitted any rudder trim tab, it was necessary to apply a firm pressure on the right rudder pedal on the climb and a considerably greater pressure on the right pedal during a dive. Control harmony was extremely poor for, although the rudder was light, the elevators were very heavy. This was probably intentional so as to avoid the possibility of applying too coarse longitudinal movements during combat, which might have caused the wing slats to spring open, thereby inducing aileron snatch and upsetting the aim of the Bf 109G's pilot.

One further criticism leveled at the Gustav was the manner in which its controls became extremely heavy as true airspeed increased beyond about 380mph. In a dive beyond 400mph to low altitude all controls seemed to seize solid so that recovery could only be achieved by throttling back and applying a steady but firm pressure on the stick. The Gustav was, however, intended to operate above 25,000ft, and at this height it was an extremely maneuverable and pleasant aeroplane to fly. (note: 6.5KM = 21,325 ft)




Good hunting,
Cajun76

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 03:57 PM
tagert wrote:

- Yup the elevator was heavy on all 109 models at high
- speeds... at 400mph+ the stick is said to feel like
- it was in cement.. Now even with force feedback they
- can not model that well, so what they do is scale
- your inputs... ie full deflection of your JS does
- not give you full el deflection.

Stick forces in the 109 were not unusually heavy compared to other aircraft of similar vintage.

To quote Dave Southwood on flying a restored G-2:

"The Bf109G is heavy to manoeuvre in pitch, being similar to a Mustang. At 520kph (335mph) it is possible to pull 4g with one hand, but I find it more comfortable to use both hands on the stick for looping manoeuvres, normally entered at 420kph and 3g. Pitch trim changes with speed are moderate, and the tail plane trim wheel mounted abeam the pilots' left hip is easy to use. For a display, I run it at 420-450kph in trim, and then do not retrim. This causes no excessive stick forces during the display. Overall the aircraft is straightforward to handle in pitch."

If he was able to pull 4g with one hand at 335mph, it is not likely the plane's controls lock solid at 400mph. They would, however, get very heavy as mentioned in the G-2 manual, where a maximum dive speed of 750kph (466mph) is cited. It should be remembered though, that the heaviness was not unique to just the 109 at these speeds, as Southwood points out.

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 03:04 AM
The thing is, the speeds were around 400-500 kph IAS. Thats not extremely high speeds unless your talking TAS, but TAS doesn't really matter in manuevers. The La would Dive, I'd give chase, we'd be just about Co-E, and he'd haul back and be in the verticle before I've even started my climb. He could have used flaps, I'm not sure, I didn't though. I think this would be useful to test, maybe find more improvements to the game.

P.S. Yak3 at same altitude is a beast, able to catch a Fw-190D9 with Wep Engaged (although eventually). Those Ruskies sure had the market cornered on high altitude performance eh? *rolls eyes*

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 04:22 AM
All the planes should experience very similair stick pressures.

Especially at max speeds, the bigger the elevator doesnt mean it had a greater effect at all during high speeds in fact resulted in more stick pressure. Now at cruising speeds the LA7 mid alt 5000 for ex was much more responsive then the 109s

both sides have silly stick presures speeds of 550-800kmph

190
lagg
la7
yaks
me262

+more

you cant even get into a unrecoverable dive in this sim I mean game becuase of the 0 stick pressure in some planes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

No structural damage from high G's or airframe overstressing

No stick pressure in certain a/c
No loss of alieron and elevator control from fast movement


all we have is max dive an elevator tab or alieron tab will break off with very little loss of control effectiveness.


Its olegs game and he will keep it a game rather then a simulation





http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 04:27 AM
Hey leadspitter, In IL2, the wings came off if the aircraft exceeded its dive speed. Not in FB??

http://www.cbrnp.com/profiles/insignia/italy/incocca-tende-scaglia.jpg
Saluti!
<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_henry_blake.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 06:05 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- Don't forget to add that this is solely your
- oppinion, with no relation with the real plane.

I would have it it was just my oppinion, but it is not, Im simply reiterating the resuts of many tests and WWII pilots accounts.

- Bf-109 high speed elevator forces were excellent
- compared with any plane of the war. Aileron forces
- at high speed were good for F and later models.

Not ture.





<div style="background:#222222;color:#e0e0e0;font-size:24px;font-weight:bold;font-face:courier;"> TAGERT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?
</div>
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=forum
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=discussion

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 07:49 AM
mike_espo yeah but you have to do it on purpose for your winsg to ripp off and then your whole plane explodes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Have you ever had one elevator tab and opposite alieron fall off, but you still have the same movement

you cant get into an unrecoverable dive where you cant get out of it with the stick and full trim is what im saying


http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter