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View Full Version : list of characters that i think need a debuffs and some that need buffs.



PizzelMaster
03-24-2018, 11:37 PM
DEBUFF'S
Berzerker: what is there to say, hes op now.
Highlander: I know im gonna get a lot of hate on this one but really the problem is his tracking on the grab, i still do what people tell me to do but it still grabs me.
Kensei: Why kensei? after the pommel hit i dont think he should still get a chance to stab you even though you dodge the pommel.
conq: He really promotes turtling with that unblockable hit after the full gaurd is used.
PK: She is really outdated and is really good, just the zone needs a debuff in my opinion.

BUFFS
Valk: she is honestly the worst character in for honor, and i mained valk
Orochi: he really needs an opener to stop people from turtling.
Warden: he is outdated and really isnt all that great, he needs something.
Centurion: I got him to rep 2, he isnt all that good cause of the parry changes, he is a low tier.
Aramusha: HE really just isnt that good in my opinion.

Danish_Crusader
03-25-2018, 01:14 AM
[
[B]BUFFS
Centurion: I got him to rep 2, he isnt all that good cause of the parry changes, he is a low tier.
Aramusha: HE really just isnt that good in my opinion.

Hahaha haha, ha... No.

Vakris_One
03-25-2018, 02:17 AM
DEBUFF'S
Berzerker: what is there to say, hes op now.
Highlander: I know im gonna get a lot of hate on this one but really the problem is his tracking on the grab, i still do what people tell me to do but it still grabs me.
Kensei: Why kensei? after the pommel hit i dont think he should still get a chance to stab you even though you dodge the pommel.
conq: He really promotes turtling with that unblockable hit after the full gaurd is used.
PK: She is really outdated and is really good, just the zone needs a debuff in my opinion.
Bezerker - I kind of agree. He's not OP but he has become a little ridiculous with that 400ms light that comes out so fast from his soft feint that it's almost a guaranteed hit 90% of the time. In 1v1 he's manageable but in 4v4s he's become a huge menace. I would just nerf the speed of that 400ms light that comes out from his soft feint. For 4v4s I honestly don't know what could be done other than remove the hyper armour from his unblockables or remove his side unblockables but that would then make him too weak.

Highlander - his tracking is fine. To nerf it back to what it was before would be to put Highlander back into the bottom tier. It can be dodged by waiting for the grab and then dodging and also rolling away.

Kensei - I don't agree with your issue here. He doesn't get the stab guarranteed if he misses the pommel hit, you can still block it and parry it. A careless Kensei pretty much gives his opponent a free parry if he lets it fly after missing pommel strike.

Conq - His full block can be baited although I would slightly reduce the activation time from 300ms to 400ms as Conqs can spam the crap out of this move and abuse its easiness to pull off. It's essentially a much better version of Aramusha's blade blockade whereas it should be at the same level as Musha's blade blockade rather than an easy move to spam to get out of a tight situation or a gank.

PK - all I'll say is they're going to have a hell of a time trying to buff her weak points while nerfing her strong points and still come out with a balanced character.




BUFFS
Valk: she is honestly the worst character in for honor, and i mained valk
Orochi: he really needs an opener to stop people from turtling.
Warden: he is outdated and really isnt all that great, he needs something.
Centurion: I got him to rep 2, he isnt all that good cause of the parry changes, he is a low tier.
Aramusha: HE really just isnt that good in my opinion.
Agree with all except the Warden. He does indeed need something more but he actually remains pretty useable even now.

Baggin_
03-25-2018, 02:32 AM
Highlander - his tracking is fine. To nerf it back to what it was before would be to put Highlander back into the bottom tier. It can be dodged by waiting for the grab and then dodging and also rolling away.

That video you posted helped a lot, however if you go OOS against him and can't roll out you're pretty screwed. The only thing I'd really change is the amount of stamina he drains when he gets you while you're oos. That's pretty much it though.

Vrbas1
03-25-2018, 04:33 AM
Conq - His full block

It's essentially a much better version of Aramusha's blade blockade whereas it should be at the same level as Musha's blade blockade rather than an easy move to spam to get out of a tight situation or a gank.

You're joking about this right? His full block takes longer to activate and can only be used on-reaction to the slowest of heavies.

Vakris_One
03-25-2018, 05:30 AM
You're joking about this right? His full block takes longer to activate and can only be used on-reaction to the slowest of heavies.
Can I play your version of the game please, lol. On PC you can use Conq's full block on reaction to any 500ms attack (same as Blade Blockade) and it guarantees him a heavy from whichever direction his guard was prior to full block. Unlike Aramusha who has to keep his guard to top to try and guarantee his top heavy from BB, which is not always guarranteed unlike the Conq's heavy. Ara basically telegraphs his desire to use BB to make a heavy attack on you whereas Conq can whip his full block out at any time and receive a guaranteed heavy if successful.

What about my statement that it is a "better version of Musha's blade blockade" do you disagree with?

EvoX.
03-25-2018, 06:09 AM
The buff list I agree with completely, the nerf list however I only agree with Conqueror.

Kryltic
03-25-2018, 07:03 AM
I agree with your character choices for buffs and debuffs but not all of your reasoning.

Nerfs
Bezerker needs his feints slowed to 500ms and some of his HA removing.

Highlander needs a slight (ever so slight) reduction in his grabbing tracking. If this would make him bottom tier then clearly he is in need of a serious rework.

Kensei needs the ability to Light after his side dodge Heavy removing (he doesn't need the ability to do both) as well as some HA removing.

Conqueror should have his FB time increased to 400ms. At least that way the have to be more careful with the timing.

Peacekeeper needs a few more tools other than Light spam, Zone and dodge Heavy. The issue is toning these down but giving her viable alternatives. I'm not entirely sure what though.

Buffs
Valkryie, she needs her second Light in a chain speeding up to give her more of a chance to hit. She needs the ability to be GB after her Spear Sweep removing or give her the ability to CGB. Her ability to dodge via Superior Light Block Attacks and Dodge Counter needs tweaking. I rarely see these used and I rarely use them. They need to either be easier to use or give a better reward... Or even somewhere inbetween. A small damage boost would also help her.

Orochi
Agreed he needs some kind of opener. Yes he's a counter attacker but the easiest way to beat him is spamming safe attacks.

Warden
Just needs a little extra in his kit to play with. Nothing major and I wouldn't put him at the top of the list for updating.

Centurion
He needs something that doesn't involve wallsplatting to win. Then remove his cutscene of throwing you around. Its just not needed.

Aramusha
Honestly I dont think hes that bad. The damage boost he got before seems fine.

SaschoS
03-25-2018, 07:38 AM
lol I mean whole game is currently in a bad state with each champ spamming one combo it makes the game boring. It is a f gamble which player would successfully execute his combo first.

Knight_Raime
03-25-2018, 08:58 AM
DEBUFF'S
Berzerker: what is there to say, hes op now.
Highlander: I know im gonna get a lot of hate on this one but really the problem is his tracking on the grab, i still do what people tell me to do but it still grabs me.
Kensei: Why kensei? after the pommel hit i dont think he should still get a chance to stab you even though you dodge the pommel.
conq: He really promotes turtling with that unblockable hit after the full gaurd is used.
PK: She is really outdated and is really good, just the zone needs a debuff in my opinion.

BUFFS
Valk: she is honestly the worst character in for honor, and i mained valk
Orochi: he really needs an opener to stop people from turtling.
Warden: he is outdated and really isnt all that great, he needs something.
Centurion: I got him to rep 2, he isnt all that good cause of the parry changes, he is a low tier.
Aramusha: HE really just isnt that good in my opinion.

I think all heros can receive tweaks in both regards. But i'll talk about the ones you've listed:

~Zerk: He's not OP. slightly over tuned. and that's from HA on neutral feinted lights. that should go. Beyond that I think stamina cost on his backwards zone should be adjusted. (also re adjust the heavy feint into light stamina cost now that it won't have HA in neutral.) Maybe give whiff cancel recovery on lights again. though I think that might cause some flicker issues now that the lights are 400ms. so idk.

~HL: His kick into toss mix up is negated by all but 2 heros by backwards walk and light. and you can always just roll away. He's fine as is. Still rather easily to keep him out of OF.

~Kensei: only nerf i'd give kensei is not being able to delay his dodge attack anymore. beyond that he could use some buffs unless the devs deal with 500ms dodge recoveries.

~conq: His FB cancel is unreliable on console unless going against heavy attacks. on pc it can probably be done to light attacks but it's still risky for him. His forward bash and his zone are the 2 actual issues balance wise from him. I'd like to see some kind of buff to shield uppercut though. maybe.

~pk: Once back dashes are nerfed (hopefully along side 500ms recoveries in some fashion) the only thing holding her up is her zone option select. if lag comp doesn't make it easier to deal with bringing the cancel to 500ms instead would be okay. But she still needs a handful of buffs.

~Valk: I think her shield play is a bit too strong. (proper spacing makes it basically impossible to punish.) but beyond that her main issue is that she's forced to repeat a lot of things from neutral which makes her really predictable and punishable. if she gained access to her sweep 1-2 other ways she'd be a lot better.

~Orochi: He doesn't need an opener. his other options for punishing just need to become a bit better. Slightly going OT but we don't need to slap every hero with an opening tool. Defensive play has it's place and shouldn't be made impossible/pointless. Trying to force someone to play different is almost always a balance mess. Unless you play in tournament level/high tier you really shouldn't have issues with turtles.

~Warden: He's nearly perfect. most of his kit sees regular use and he's got decent punishes with some OOS presence. he just struggles to get going. and his top heavy mix up is just easily blocked.

~Centurion: Beyond giving him a bit more health he's probably fine as is.

~Aramusha: is meh. he only needs a few small tweaks. BB specifically. Maybe giving an unblockable mid combo (i've suggested after a heavy lands but it's not deadly feintable.) Really mushu is just about knowing his kit really well and pulling off smart bb use with delayed deadly feints. He's not going to super combo people consistently. Forcing that would just be a balance mess.

ArchDukeInstinct
03-25-2018, 09:02 AM
Conq - His full block can be baited although I would slightly reduce the activation time from 300ms to 400ms as Conqs can spam the crap out of this move and abuse its easiness to pull off. It's essentially a much better version of Aramusha's blade blockade whereas it should be at the same level as Musha's blade blockade rather than an easy move to spam to get out of a tight situation or a gank.


Can I play your version of the game please, lol. On PC you can use Conq's full block on reaction to any 500ms attack (same as Blade Blockade) and it guarantees him a heavy from whichever direction his guard was prior to full block. Unlike Aramusha who has to keep his guard to top to try and guarantee his top heavy from BB, which is not always guarranteed unlike the Conq's heavy. Ara basically telegraphs his desire to use BB to make a heavy attack on you whereas Conq can whip his full block out at any time and receive a guaranteed heavy if successful.

What about my statement that it is a "better version of Musha's blade blockade" do you disagree with?

Unless The Flash himself recently got into For Honor and mains Conqueror, I find that highly unlikely. Even under perfect conditions, 0 input lag, 0 networking lag, you'd have to full block within 200ms to catch a 500ms attack on reaction. That just isn't going to happen with the vast majority of players.

And even if someone could actually do it on a consistent basis then they'd have no trouble parrying lights and getting more damage with a top heavy followup anyway.

Now I do agree that Conq's fullblock is better than Aramusha's blade blockade and that's exactly how it should be. Aramusha has faster attacks that do more damage and actually has a feign game. Conqueror's defensive tools should be objectively better, end of story.

Oh and PS unless you love getting guard broken then don't use full block stance against ganks, use the zone attack...

Vakris_One
03-25-2018, 02:57 PM
Unless The Flash himself recently got into For Honor and mains Conqueror, I find that highly unlikely. Even under perfect conditions, 0 input lag, 0 networking lag, you'd have to full block within 200ms to catch a 500ms attack on reaction. That just isn't going to happen with the vast majority of players.

And even if someone could actually do it on a consistent basis then they'd have no trouble parrying lights and getting more damage with a top heavy followup anyway.

Now I do agree that Conq's fullblock is better than Aramusha's blade blockade and that's exactly how it should be. Aramusha has faster attacks that do more damage and actually has a feign game. Conqueror's defensive tools should be objectively better, end of story.

Oh and PS unless you love getting guard broken then don't use full block stance against ganks, use the zone attack...
All I can say is that is my experience recently. It is highly annoying seeing most Conqs whip out fullblock when pressured and either get lucky by catching the opponent's 500ms lights or genuinley reacting to them. Maybe I'm getting lucky when I play Conq, maybe I'm too predictable when playing against him, all could be true. That being said, fullblock isn't actually what makes the reworked Conqueror a bit of a cancer. His zone and his ability to keep you in OOS indefinitely is.

I'm not someone to suggest in-depth nerfs and buffs because I don't live and breath this game but I can say that Conq has become one of the most annoying characters to fight because of the way he can pressure you when going on the offensive while also having the tools to be a defensive wall - he's pretty much got the best of worlds.

RE: Aramusha. Conq has a pretty decent feint game himself so it's not like he "doesn't have a feint game". The thing is, Conq has better offensive and defensive tools than Aramusha as well as one hell of an OOS pressure game. It's not really very balanced when you look at those two. "Faster attacks that do more damage", yeah if you can land them in a gank because no decent player will let Aramusha do that in a 1v1. I'd take Conq's objectively slower attacks but completely superior kit any day of the week.

Baturai
03-25-2018, 10:28 PM
Berzerker: Needs more Stamina but Remove the Early hyperarmor. Remove Zone Track and Sidedash Attack track. Reduce Zone damage and make it punishable.
Highlander: Remove stupid Grab track reduce his dodge.
conq: If this hero is all about shield bash Gb with almost no oppenings, there is a sign of Inbalance int his game. He shouldnt be able to Parry. Why ? shield stance zone dash block is enough tool to counter.
PK: I think she is too exaggrated, she might need some buffs. Zone comes always from 1 side. if you turtle she is useless.

Valk: Needs buff no doubt.
Orochi: His guard is a joke. movement speed is a joke. very small kit.
Warden: Faster sight lightgs and reliable dodge and better chasing kit.
Centurion:this hero doesnt need a buff.
Aramusha: nope, perfectly fine.

Sneakly20
03-26-2018, 12:11 AM
Iím only gonna throw my two cents in for ara and cent. Cent needs a rework. You canít simply adjust numbers on him. He hits like a truck one moment and the next he a fish. He needs to be a brawler. More grabs and less damage. Ara.. well if you know how to block you can shut him down. He isnít a reliable hero outside of ganks. His deadly feint is easily blocked or even parried depending on opponent. His blade blockade is not simply not powerful enough to warrant its use. His zone is generally is considered his opener but that even fails to open some people up.

ArchDukeInstinct
03-26-2018, 12:22 AM
All I can say is that is my experience recently. It is highly annoying seeing most Conqs whip out fullblock when pressured and either get lucky by catching the opponent's 500ms lights or genuinley reacting to them. Maybe I'm getting lucky when I play Conq, maybe I'm too predictable when playing against him, all could be true. That being said, fullblock isn't actually what makes the reworked Conqueror a bit of a cancer. His zone and his ability to keep you in OOS indefinitely is.

I'm not someone to suggest in-depth nerfs and buffs because I don't live and breath this game but I can say that Conq has become one of the most annoying characters to fight because of the way he can pressure you when going on the offensive while also having the tools to be a defensive wall - he's pretty much got the best of worlds.

RE: Aramusha. Conq has a pretty decent feint game himself so it's not like he "doesn't have a feint game". The thing is, Conq has better offensive and defensive tools than Aramusha as well as one hell of an OOS pressure game. It's not really very balanced when you look at those two. "Faster attacks that do more damage", yeah if you can land them in a gank because no decent player will let Aramusha do that in a 1v1. I'd take Conq's objectively slower attacks but completely superior kit any day of the week.

So basically Conquerors are shutting down all these 500ms lights with their full block stance and its 300ms startup on reaction but their opponent can't back dodge a 500ms shield bash on reaction and are doomed to remain in OOS even though shield bash's stamina damage was actually halved by the rework. Okay.

Conqueror's feign game is not even close to decent. There's no viable options from a full block stance because everything after it is too delayed, it's entirely reliant on the enemy falling for the parry and not feigning the attempt. Try doing a charged heavy into full block stance or shield uppercut, they just back dodge and counter every option with no risk. Shield uppercut is so sad that assassins will just do their dodge attack and hit you before they get hit or at least trade a good percentage of the time. So no, there is no feign game and you're exhausting lots of stamina and opening yourself up to guard breaks.

Vakris_One
03-26-2018, 07:16 PM
So basically Conquerors are shutting down all these 500ms lights with their full block stance and its 300ms startup on reaction but their opponent can't back dodge a 500ms shield bash on reaction and are doomed to remain in OOS even though shield bash's stamina damage was actually halved by the rework. Okay.
I can detect some main protectionism coming off of your tone which usually means a productive conversation is out of the window but lets hope I'm wrong.

You do know Conq can do a running shield bash with very little running distance right? Armed with that, his regular dodge bashes and soft feint cancels and a GB he can successfully play mind games with an OOS opponent better than most of the cast. Even a PK back dodge will eat a running shield bash/GB mind game if that's all she does. I mean the high level competitive crowd could be completely wrong about Conq's OOS pressure while you are right but I wouldn't bet money on those odds.



Conqueror's feign game is not even close to decent. There's no viable options from a full block stance because everything after it is too delayed, it's entirely reliant on the enemy falling for the parry and not feigning the attempt. Try doing a charged heavy into full block stance or shield uppercut, they just back dodge and counter every option with no risk. Shield uppercut is so sad that assassins will just do their dodge attack and hit you before they get hit or at least trade a good percentage of the time. So no, there is no feign game and you're exhausting lots of stamina and opening yourself up to guard breaks.
Fair enough.

ArchDukeInstinct
03-28-2018, 02:26 AM
You do know Conq can do a running shield bash with very little running distance right? Armed with that, his regular dodge bashes and soft feint cancels and a GB he can successfully play mind games with an OOS opponent better than most of the cast. Even a PK back dodge will eat a running shield bash/GB mind game if that's all she does.

Charging shield crush has a massive stamina cost. It's about half of the Conqueror's stamina pool. Sure it's borderline unreactable between it and a gb after a sprint but you effectively end your own OOS pressure very short if you go through with one because you won't be able to afford to do much more after it without going into OOS yourself and all you'll get is a light and the stamina damage of an old shield bash.

I don't know what soft feint cancel you are talking about. Neither shield uppercut or full block stance is going to help you do OOS pressure. You're just wasting time and your own stamina.

Which leaves Conqueror with just shield bash / gb mixup which is indeed strong but definitely avoidable on reaction.


I mean the high level competitive crowd could be completely wrong about Conq's OOS pressure while you are right but I wouldn't bet money on those odds.

My point wasn't that Conqueror doesn't have adept OOS pressure because he certainly does. What I wanted to point out is that it's inconsistent to act like full block on reaction to a light is practical but consistently dodging shield bash isn't.