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View Full Version : I can't be the only one thinking this....



MassConfusions
03-21-2018, 07:25 AM
I love For Honor, I love the concept, i love the classes, i love the game play, I just love this game. It kills me to see it how it is though. I know this game has huge potential with how it is, just something has to be done about the assassins.

I'm not saying nerf them or anything, i don't play the assassin classes very much so i cant say whats really wrong with them. I know turtle meta was awful and i didn't like it either. But the removal of the turtle meta is just killing the heavy classes. These are the guys that i love and want to keep playing, but nerf after nerf to the defensive style of game play just feel like blanket nerfs to all of these guys. They are bigger, they are slower, yet they don't feel like heavies with power or anything, just like big punching bags. I know that the skill of the player can in most cases override the "tier" of the character, but it feels like an uphill battle with every heavy character.

I think its good that characters in this game have hugely offensive play styles and i love that there are a select few with defensive styles. The problem i think stems from the fact that the assassins have just more options overall. They have the speedy attacks, great dodge movements, deflects, the same parrying abilities, stuns in a lot of cases, and hit almost as hard as the heavy classes too with their speed making up for the rest. They need the heavies to feel more powerful because in the case of shugoki and lawbringer, they tower over everyone else, they have more health but the difference just seems negligible most of the times.

I'm trying to bite my tongue because i know that Ubisoft is reworking the original characters but I don't want these defensive guys to die out. Its just frustrating to keep playing the game in the state its in. I love the game, I want it to be good, but there just isn't enough of that light at the end of the tunnel to keep me and apparently a lot of other people going much longer. Just please Ubisoft, don't mess up this season. Please don,t mess it up

Charmzzz
03-21-2018, 10:28 AM
Look at the values here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=0

Assassins have less HP overall and no static guard. Most Heavy Attack timings are the same (800-900ms), and the damage is mostly very similar (30-35). There are exceptions, but not on Assassins.
They are not "faster" on everything. Most heroes (except 4) have a 500ms Attack. Dodge recoveries are overall a bit better on Assassins, but there are exceptions, too. Just have a look at the numbers.

WastedPunk
03-21-2018, 02:10 PM
Assassins have less HP overall and no static guard. Most Heavy Attack timings are the same (800-900ms), and the damage is mostly very similar (30-35). There are exceptions, but not on Assassins.
They are not "faster" on everything. Most heroes (except 4) have a 500ms Attack. Dodge recoveries are overall a bit better on Assassins, but there are exceptions, too. Just have a look at the numbers.
Yes,there's no denying the fact that every light in the game is 500ms.Its about the animations that they have.
A Shugoki swinging his giant mace and a peackeeper stabbing with her tiny daggers may be the same ms,but they are most definitely not the same.
One is extremely telegraphed whereas the other isn't.Theres a reason why they are called Assassins.
When a Shugoki initiates a light attack,We see his arms moving,his body moving and above all,his giant mace.Whereas with the PK,all we get is the animation of her moving her arms and the daggers (I hope that made sense.)

Charmzzz
03-21-2018, 02:23 PM
Yes,there's no denying the fact that every light in the game is 500ms.Its about the animations that they have.
A Shugoki swinging his giant mace and a peackeeper stabbing with her tiny daggers may be the same ms,but they are most definitely not the same.
One is extremely telegraphed whereas the other isn't.Theres a reason why they are called Assassins.
When a Shugoki initiates a light attack,We see his arms moving,his body moving and above all,his giant mace.Whereas with the PK,all we get is the animation of her moving her arms and the daggers (I hope that made sense.)

True. But Shugo is a bad example because he only has 600ms Light Attacks (together with Raider, Nobushi and Highlander Def-Stance). Sure, the animation is something to count in, but if you solely concentrate on the indicators, you will be fine.

Edit: I am wrong on Nobushi, first side light is 500ms, too.

Girl2Good
03-21-2018, 02:31 PM
True. But Shugo is a bad example because he only has 600ms Light Attacks (together with Raider, Nobushi and Highlander Def-Stance). Sure, the animation is something to count in, but if you solely concentrate on the indicators, you will be fine.

Edit: I am wrong on Nobushi, first side light is 500ms, too.
As far as heavies go, Conq is in a very good spot. Shugoki and Warlord need some help for sure. Although Warlord (at least for me) is pretty tough to beat when you get a player who parry punishes you oos and spams his 2step sprinting sheild push/gb thing. Which is one thing I'd like to see patched out.

WastedPunk
03-21-2018, 02:32 PM
True. But Shugo is a bad example because he only has 600ms Light Attacks (together with Raider, Nobushi and Highlander Def-Stance). Sure, the animation is something to count in, but if you solely concentrate on the indicators, you will be fine.

Edit: I am wrong on Nobushi, first side light is 500ms, too.
Warden is probably the best example. His top light feels quicker than his side ones even though they are the same ms.Because one is more telegraphed than the other.

With that being said,the only real downside assassins have currently is less health so I agree with "mass confusions" post.
Heavy classes need to feel like heavies (More health,more damage but slower)

Whereas assassins need to feel like assassins (Less health,less damage,More mobility)
Obviously these cant be said about every hero of a particular class but the point still remains.

Charmzzz
03-21-2018, 02:35 PM
Warden is probably the best example. His top light feels quicker than his side ones even though they are the same ms.Because one is more telegraphed than the other.

With that being said,the only real downside assassins have currently is less health so I agree with "mass confusions" post.
Heavy classes need to feel like heavies (More health,more damage but slower)

Whereas assassins need to feel like assassins (Less health,less damage,More mobility)
Obviously these cant be said about every hero of a particular class but the point still remains.

And welcome to the Assassin exclusive meta. As long as every hero can parry attacks, making heavy classes "slower" would end up being totally underpowered for them. I know what you want so see, it just does not fit in any fighting game. Maybe in a PVE fighting game where you can adjust the NPC's, but not in a PVP game. The faster classes will always win vs the slower classes, no matter the health.

Girl2Good
03-21-2018, 02:41 PM
And welcome to the Assassin exclusive meta. As long as every hero can parry attacks, making heavy classes "slower" would end up being totally underpowered for them. I know what you want so see, it just does not fit in any fighting game. Maybe in a PVE fighting game where you can adjust the NPC's, but not in a PVP game. The faster classes will always win vs the slower classes, no matter the health.

It would be neat if assassins couldn't parry, but have to use their deflect. I theory anyway, how that would translate to balance on the other hand...

Vakris_One
03-21-2018, 02:47 PM
To be honest I think the Shugo is the closest thing we have to a firmly defined Heavy class in this game. The Warlord remains clunky and stilted but not particularly hard hitting. He's tanky-ish in terms of health but he feels more like a Vanguard than a heavy. The reworked Conq is more of a generalist now and has become a very aggressive character that just happens to have really good defensive options in the form of his 300ms full block into guarranteed heavy upon hit and his full block zone - he's become a jack of all trades basically.

In my opinion, Ubi should put work into defining the 4 classes until the respective heroes all feel like they firmly belong to that class. Right now the only well defined class is the assassin class. The answer is not to make the Shugo and Warlord a jack of all trades hybrid like they did with the Conq because then you might as well call them Hybrids.

Heavies need to still feel like Heavies whether that be via more hyper armour options, more health, a soft feint into a melee bash and/or big damage on their relatively slower unblockable strikes. They don't need to be made faster per say or given a ton of soft feints.

Charmzzz
03-21-2018, 02:50 PM
It would be neat if assassins couldn't parry, but have to use their deflect. I theory anyway, how that would translate to balance on the other hand...

I am in for this with a big IF. IF they make unblockables deflectable AND buff certain deflects (PK especially is super lackluster compared to the others), plus give Assassins the "Raider trait" of CGB while dodging (which would even fit the Assassin theme), then remove parry from them. Yay, that would be awesome!

Girl2Good
03-21-2018, 04:29 PM
I am in for this with a big IF. IF they make unblockables deflectable AND buff certain deflects (PK especially is super lackluster compared to the others), plus give Assassins the "Raider trait" of CGB while dodging (which would even fit the Assassin theme), then remove parry from them. Yay, that would be awesome!

If they did that, there would need to be some sort of penalty to missing the deflect. One that I can't really think of besides so sort of extra recovery time.
As it is missing a deflect just dodges the attack.

HazelrahFirefly
03-21-2018, 06:10 PM
If they did that, there would need to be some sort of penalty to missing the deflect. One that I can't really think of besides so sort of extra recovery time.
As it is missing a deflect just dodges the attack.

Well actually, the penalty is/should be eating the hit if you miss-time it. Currently you could go early or late, depending on the incoming attack, and be clobered instead of deflecting. Its why I agree that unblockables should be deflectable, because rhe punishment is being hit for large damage if you screw it up.

Getting rid of the parry is a dangerous slope, but with unblockables deflecting for assassins it might work. The balance should be:

A) that if you don't dodge in a specific window then you get hit no matter what
B) the dodge attacka don't activate if you dodge in the same direction as an incoming attack, the deflect direction
C) unblockables can be deflected so that assassins have an option

UbiJurassic
03-21-2018, 06:33 PM
As you've already said, the original heroes will be getting a large balance pass by the team to either rework or bring major balance updates to each of them. However, we definitely know assassins can be a bit tricky for some classes to deal with that. One thing the team is looking into is a global back dodge rule for all heroes. This should help slower heroes deal with the assassins ability to easily duck in and out of fights safely.

Draco067
03-21-2018, 07:01 PM
I agree that the classes need to be better defined by their play style. As far as deflects go I made a couple suggestions in my thread on tweaks to Orochi. Related to parrys for assassins, what if, instead of getting rid of parry, assassins could only get light punishes even if they parry a light attack? This would make deflects worth more, and as I mentioned in my thread, unblockables would be deflectable.

Kelson27
03-22-2018, 03:27 AM
I kinda donít feel like this line of thinking is on the right track. Losing parry for an entire class ainít gonna make heavies heavier. Itís gonna make assassins useless. As an orochi main I can tell you there is heaps of drawbacks to them, and deflect for the most part is way, way too risky in most circumstances. They donít interrupt chains and more often than not you trade, which believe it or not is a death sentence for the assassins. Less health means an opening or too less to death, i think itís fine considering with gear Iíve been two shot by a HL.

Find changes for shugo - not blanket nerfs for classes already lagging. Warlord conq and shugo do fit the heavy glove, in different ways. I kinda see them as shielded vs heavy too but I can see where the devs came from. Shugo get the extra health and hyper armour, the others shields, heavy kinda equals immovable object... not really heavy so much as a team fortress heavy is defined.

With the new reworks coming and hopefully lag comp coming in soon I do think deflects might become more viable but Iím mostly holding judgement till then.