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bob333e
03-20-2018, 06:59 PM
I honestly believe that when parrying a zone attack, it should act as a light parry; i.e. able to punish with a top heavy (side heavy on some heroes) when a zone is parried.

Exceptions to this rule are:
- Lawbringer
- Centurion
- Raider
- Valkyrie
- Highlander
- Shugoki
- Nobushi

That means if you are using Lawbringer, Centurion, Raider, Valkyrie, Highlander, Shugoki or Nobushi and your zone got parried, it acts as a heavy parry (as it currently is).

On every other hero, it should act as a light parry.

All in all, any zone attack faster than 600ms should act as light parry if parried; and any zone that is 600ms or greater should remain as-is (acts as heavy parry when parried).

I lacked direct frame data at the time of creation of this thread, so if I missed something pertaining to zone attack speeds, I'd be happy to amend this post again.

Feedback and discussion appreciated.

PepsiBeastin
03-20-2018, 07:11 PM
Rather than on a per-attack basis, it should be based on attack speed/startup time. It isnt fair that you can parry an orochi side light and get a max parry punish, yet you can parry a faster centurion heavy and get less from it.

bob333e
03-20-2018, 07:27 PM
Rather than on a per-attack basis, it should be based on attack speed/startup time. It isnt fair that you can parry an orochi side light and get a max parry punish, yet you can parry a faster centurion heavy and get less from it.

Interesting point. Though if it was that way, I think assassins would suffer even more from such changes. Yeah Centurion's heavies are rather peculiar, they're the fastest heavies. Centurion as a whole is a trainwreck of a kit.

When you're up against Centurion, notice the differences in animations. If it's a "slash", it's a light. If it's more of a "stab", it's a heavy.

I think with the current parry changes, Centurion got rightfully downgraded to where he should be. No need to nerf him further, and your suggestions would render all assassins hitting a stone wall.

Parry changes, as a whole, should not look into nerfing particular classes or attacks; but rather, making punishes fair across the board.

BTTrinity
03-20-2018, 07:33 PM
I can agree with this post 100% of the way, other than the first strike of Nobushi's 600ms zone not counting as a heavy.

600ms+ gives a light attack, below 600ms gives a heavy

bob333e
03-20-2018, 07:46 PM
I can agree with this post 100% of the way, other than the first strike of Nobushi's 600ms zone not counting as a heavy.

600ms+ gives a light attack, below 600ms gives a heavy

I think in Nobushi's case, it's the startup frames that make it daunting to parry it; rather than the attack speed itself. Her zone's first hit is not really telegraphed, hence why didn't include her in the exception list.

However if we're talking strictly zone attacks, I agree: 600ms+ should yield lights, below 600ms should yield heavies. I think this pretty much goes well with my original post, as I don't think those I listed as exceptions have zones faster than 600ms (I apologise as I lack direct frame data).

BTTrinity
03-20-2018, 08:04 PM
I think in Nobushi's case, it's the startup frames that make it daunting to parry it; rather than the attack speed itself.

Im confused what u mean by this.

Nobushi's zone is a little weird though (Not sure if they fixed this) but a while back I remember people bringing up the fact that her zone can be like 25ms slower depending on the direction you use it from.

As previously stated, not sure if its been fixed but: Back in like S2-S3 initiating zone from left guard resulted in the zone taking slightly longer to connect.

Is this what you're referring to?

but initiating the zone in the direction it comes from makes it connect 600ms exactly.

However if we're talking strictly zone attacks, I agree: 600ms+ should yield lights, below 600ms should yield heavies. I think this pretty much goes well with my original post, as I don't think those I listed as exceptions have zones faster than 600ms (I apologise as I lack direct frame data).

Nobushi's zone is exactly 600ms (the same as Aramushas top heavy) which is why I brought up the frame data. I feel like if theres 600ms heavy attacks then, zones that are 600ms should also act as a heavy attack.

Nobushi's zone is a little weird though (Not sure if they fixed this) but a while back I remember people bringing up the fact that her zone can be like 25ms slower depending on the direction you use it from.

As previously stated, not sure if its been fixed but: Back in like S2-S3 initiating zone from left guard resulted in the zone taking slightly longer to connect

but initiating the zone in the direction it comes from makes it connect 600ms exactly.

bob333e
03-20-2018, 08:11 PM
Im confused what u mean by this.

Nobushi's zone is a little weird though (Not sure if they fixed this) but a while back I remember people bringing up the fact that her zone can be like 25ms slower depending on the direction you use it from.

As previously stated, not sure if its been fixed but: Back in like S2-S3 initiating zone from left guard resulted in the zone taking slightly longer to connect.

Is this what you're referring to?

but initiating the zone in the direction it comes from makes it connect 600ms exactly.


Nobushi's zone is exactly 600ms (the same as Aramushas top heavy) which is why I brought up the frame data. I feel like if theres 600ms heavy attacks then, zones that are 600ms should also act as a heavy attack.

Nobushi's zone is a little weird though (Not sure if they fixed this) but a while back I remember people bringing up the fact that her zone can be like 25ms slower depending on the direction you use it from.

As previously stated, not sure if its been fixed but: Back in like S2-S3 initiating zone from left guard resulted in the zone taking slightly longer to connect

but initiating the zone in the direction it comes from makes it connect 600ms exactly.

Was referring to the fact that you don't really see the animation coming (of the first hit) even if the attack itself is 600ms. Parrying the second hit is a no-brainer but parrying the first hit is challenging most times.

I'm not sure either whether they fixed this guard stance switch bug on Nobushi's zone; I'm not all too well-versed with how she moves, nor do I recall this mentioned in patch notes. Maybe it's an intended thing with her zone?

Still, you have a good point, zones that are 600ms or greater, should act as heavy parry when parried. I'll amend my original post and add Nobushi to the exception list.

BTTrinity
03-20-2018, 09:13 PM
Was referring to the fact that you don't really see the animation coming (of the first hit) even if the attack itself is 600ms. Parrying the second hit is a no-brainer but parrying the first hit is challenging most times.

I'm not sure either whether they fixed this guard stance switch bug on Nobushi's zone; I'm not all too well-versed with how she moves, nor do I recall this mentioned in patch notes. Maybe it's an intended thing with her zone?

Still, you have a good point, zones that are 600ms or greater, should act as heavy parry when parried. I'll amend my original post and add Nobushi to the exception list.

Derp, my b.

For sure, its probably her least-telegraphed move in her kit and is very good against dodge-happy assassins, which is my main use for it. Oddly enough though, her zone is one of the two moves out of her kit that I feel 100% confident in parrying when I see it, because she cant cancel it and NEEDS to commit to the move. (The other being her dodge attacks) then again, probably not that weird cuz shes my main so Im just used to her animations.

I dont think its intended, but I also think it was fixed back when they fixed her guard change speed... I'll have to test and report the next time I get on.

bob333e
03-20-2018, 09:17 PM
Derp, my b.

For sure, its probably her least-telegraphed move in her kit and is very good against dodge-happy assassins, which is my main use for it. Oddly enough though, her zone is one of the two moves out of her kit that I feel 100% confident in parrying when I see it, because she cant cancel it and NEEDS to commit to the move. (The other being her dodge attacks) then again, probably not that weird cuz shes my main so Im just used to her animations.

I dont think its intended, but I also think it was fixed back when they fixed her guard change speed... I'll have to test and report the next time I get on.

No problemo, I value your inputs.

Yeah her zone's first hit is definitely among her hardest moves to telegraph, add her new kick as of S5 it became near-guaranteed upon activation, often too quick to react to.

What still gets me in her is when they move into HS and from there jimble the attack indicators from top to side or from side to top and I end up attempting to parry from the wrong side. Though I think this should stay as-is. That tactic is the only half-sure way of ensuring she won't get her lights parried, as her lights are still fairly telegraphed because of her big naginata.

Would love to hear what you find out after you run some tests.

Knight_Raime
03-20-2018, 10:48 PM
I can't agree. I find it odd that you know speed alone shouldn't dictate a punish (as noted by pepsi's suggestion that you were not okay with) but you come up with this.

I don't think anything other than lights should get a light parry punish. As currently those hit pretty hard still. Think of it this way. One of the reasons we had the parry changes was because people were afraid of using other attacks because of the punishment for using an attack that wasn't safe/guaranteed. This caused people to turtle up and only use those specific options or feint bait themselves to get a hard hitting punish.

By making zones and/or dodge attacks (I know you didn't say dodge attacks but i'm throwing it in for reasons) light parry punishes you're effectively limiting the options of moves one has. No one is going to risk say wardens zone if you could just parry it for 40+ damage. Zones come from the same side. and a handful of them can't even be feinted. And you're asking for a bigger punish on those already risky moves.

But lets grab some data...
Warden. Has no opener. zone does 20 damage. Non feintable. 500ms. Essentially asking all wardens out there to rely on top light only as side light is 600ms and side heavies are 800ms.
Orochi. 20 damage at 500ms. Gets rid of some of his bait options. Forces him to rely on top lights more. Wouldn't want to use this as a punishment because it would be very risky and is never guaranteed outside maybe storm rush.
Shinobi. Known for not having options beyond his lights to attack in majority of instances. Zone is 500ms. can't be canceled. nets you 15 damage. 15. No.
Aramusha. 15 damage. Has no opener. zone in itself offers little mix up.

I can understand wanting pk's zone to be more punishing as it is apart of her option select which is a BIG reason why she is still so strong. But personally i'd rather wait till lag comp is turned on and see how people deal with it. And if it's still an issue bringing it up to 500ms imo would be better.

bob333e
03-20-2018, 11:40 PM
I can't agree. I find it odd that you know speed alone shouldn't dictate a punish (as noted by pepsi's suggestion that you were not okay with) but you come up with this.

Still a more reasonable train of thought than you wanting a hyperarmored unblockable heavy finisher on Warden, aha. As a Warden main I find this suggestion both hilarious and unnecessary but I deigned throwing a comment about it, no point in clashing two perspectives. Which is the issue here.


I don't think anything other than lights should get a light parry punish. As currently those hit pretty hard still. Think of it this way. One of the reasons we had the parry changes was because people were afraid of using other attacks because of the punishment for using an attack that wasn't safe/guaranteed. This caused people to turtle up and only use those specific options or feint bait themselves to get a hard hitting punish.

By making zones and/or dodge attacks (I know you didn't say dodge attacks but i'm throwing it in for reasons) light parry punishes you're effectively limiting the options of moves one has. No one is going to risk say wardens zone if you could just parry it for 40+ damage. Zones come from the same side. and a handful of them can't even be feinted. And you're asking for a bigger punish on those already risky moves.

But lets grab some data...
Warden. Has no opener. zone does 20 damage. Non feintable. 500ms. Essentially asking all wardens out there to rely on top light only as side light is 600ms and side heavies are 800ms.
Orochi. 20 damage at 500ms. Gets rid of some of his bait options. Forces him to rely on top lights more. Wouldn't want to use this as a punishment because it would be very risky and is never guaranteed outside maybe storm rush.
Shinobi. Known for not having options beyond his lights to attack in majority of instances. Zone is 500ms. can't be canceled. nets you 15 damage. 15. No.
Aramusha. 15 damage. Has no opener. zone in itself offers little mix up.

I can understand wanting pk's zone to be more punishing as it is apart of her option select which is a BIG reason why she is still so strong. But personally i'd rather wait till lag comp is turned on and see how people deal with it. And if it's still an issue bringing it up to 500ms imo would be better.

I ultimately understand that there's no middle ground: either the 400ms zones remain safe to throw and minimally punishable, or they could be heavily punishable should they get parried and henceforth not that safe to throw, especially at higher levels of play (which I assume is what crossed your mind as you responded to this thread).

Some dodge attacks are already punishable with heavies on parry, such as Zerk's and Orochi's. Although my thread does not relate in any way to how dodge attacks work and punishing them should work, I'll still disagree because dodge attacks, should they become safer to dish out, will effectively render assassins a lot more powerful in general.

Back to the point. Warden's and Orochi's zones are as aforementioned effectively safe to throw on reaction. This alone still makes them hard to parry. You over-exaggerated the rest of your sentence here. By making their zones punishable with a heavy on parry (if and when they get parried), you in no way force them to completely forget about their zone attacks. We're not talking Highlander-level of telegraphed zones here.

It's less about how much damage they dish out, and more about how safe are they to dish out, compared to the rest of the kit. If we're basing this argument solely on damage trade-offs then by your logic, the heaviest-hitting attacks should be the ones punishable with top heavies on parry, effectively reversing what the parry changes had just fixed this season.

It's not about whether they can be cancelled, either. It's about how often you can catch your opponent off-guard with them, safely so. A Warden or an Orochi landing three consecutive zones on you in the same round has effectively tamed you to their will. You're unlikely to adequately punish the 4th zone because they already landed three.

This thread did not stress specifically around PK, either. I get PK's cancel after the first hit is abusable but it's how her kit is designed. Rather than nerfing her own kit, these super-fast, often-safe-to-throw attacks should be more punishable on parry, if and when they get parried.

It's completely fine to disagree. This was a thought I had come up with on a whim, and didn't even bother looking at frame data or doing intensive calculations. Just debating a thought. By all means, take the entirety of this thread with a grain of salt. It's completely fine to debate unrefined thoughts because further discussions may or may not lead to actual solid and logical suggestions later; provided a discussion had been born in the first place. Not a clash of perspectives that borders on prejudice and misconception. Thanks for your input still, much appreciated.

Knight_Raime
03-21-2018, 12:12 AM
I don't see how you could possibly take issue with my warden suggestion beyond (I dislike unblockables/armor as a concept) which I know you're not...close minded enough to believe.
It functions the exact same way as is his top heavy is used for now. Though instead of the opponent waiting to block either the ripped heavy or feinted into light or cgbing your feint into GB attempt they either have to be ready to parry or dodge away. This was the exact same situation zerker was in with his heavy finisher from top. and buffing it didn't change his kits style or make him OP. So unless you can explain why you think it's not needed/a bad idea i'm just going to assume this was written up as a playful jab and not meant to be taken seriously.

500ms* pk's is the only 400ms zone. I'm always looking at things in a duelist perspective first and foremost. Not only because I exclusively duel but because 1 on 1 combat is the basis of combat. Group fights are so dynamic and different discussion for them has to be considered directly and mentioned. Rather than offhandedly mentioning something with no context. Zerks and orochi's dodge attacks shouldn't be lights. They should be heavies. In the case of Berzerker whiff canceling/baiting is a huge aspect of his kit. That largely goes un used just because the punishment on it is really high. And rochi already has little reason to dash attack to begin with because he gets no combos from it and it's only 18 damage. The fact that he can be hit super hard for this just further deters him from using it.

Which just sounds like you're against buffing assassins. Everyone should receive buffs and nerfs to some degree. If you want assassins to be less powerful in one area (ala dash recovery/distance) then you have to buff them else where to compensate. Assassins have poor defense due to reflex guard and less health. And their slippryness (recovery and distance) is actively being called for nerfs. Which is justified. But by making all dash attacks highly punishable "just cause" you're essentially asking people who want to play assassins to pick a worse character all for the sake of having highly situational strong punishes (ala deflect.) I'm not saying your concern isn't valid. I am asking you to actually look at a bigger picture.

They're safe on raw bashes. Or slow mix ups. Not general feint games. I didn't over exadurate. it's important to understand and respect that the damage they get from their "safe" zone is barely comparable to most heavy parry punishes. On top of the fact that some lack a feint option for feint baits. And that it comes from the same direction. By writing off these important understandings it only goes to show you don't wish to hear a valid side of discussion. And that's blatently false. Wardens zone used to be punishable on block with a GB. A GB netted a heavy and worse when it came to damage. That's 100% why wardens zone was not used till they removed that.

There is nothing safe about throwing an attack that's highly predictable that in some cases has no feint bait options. If someone is repeatedly throwing zones at you and you're constantly eating it that's on you. Not the attack. I mentioned pk's zone specifically because it's the only "op" zone in the game that fits this discussion. (glads doesn't count because it's a bash first but it's a problem and needs nerfing.) Pk's zone if it landed you a heavy on parry punish would be 100% understandable because of how strong her zone is via option select. (you can even zone cancel into deflect on HA attacks. it's insane.)

To wrap up.
Feint baits are an important aspect of the games fighting as a whole. zones without this are less useful universally than zones that have this option.
Generally speaking when a move is considered safe it's because of 3 aspects. Speed. predictability or lack their of. and mix up potential. Zones at most have 2 of those.
And they expend half your stamina for it. Which is more than fair in my opinion.

If we looked at a zone individually that you think should be more punishable that's a discussion I can have. But making zones as a whole more punishable to me just doesn't sit right. The damage/stamina cost alone to me means it's not something that can and should be relied upon in a fight to use more than twice. Added to the fact that static guard heros need only to rest their guard in the direction of the zone to negate the zone further cements this not being a good idea. Plus giving a heavy on a zone parry would buff assassins decently. Which you seem to be opposed to given your earlier statement. :>

bob333e
03-21-2018, 12:50 AM
Whoa. I expected a low-blow one-liner and an opt out, but you went through the effort of typing all that. I appreciate.

No, no playful jabs involved. But, I will not debate any of your points. At least not now. I'm sorry, but when you walk up to a thread (which from its title should give you the idea that such a title with such little text in the original post was merely skimming the surface of the whole concept and wasn't a full three-day train of thoughts dumped inside one text) with a Holier Than Thou attitude, I tend to get annoyed real quick. I don't know who you've been arguing with recently, either on here or on Reddit, but I sniff hostility all too well.

I might reconsider debating your points, but it won't be in here, this thread is already lost. It's not an in-depth thread anyway. We can reopen another one later. So I'll keep this short:


I'm not saying your concern isn't valid. I am asking you to actually look at a bigger picture.

There wasn't any concern in my original post. Merely a thought that could have used a proper discussion to refine it. But I chose a bad time I suppose. Someone's been arguing with someone and is still boiling off.


By writing off these important understandings it only goes to show you don't wish to hear a valid side of discussion.

Discussion is on hold, yeah.

Devils-_-legacy
03-21-2018, 01:01 AM
I didn't agree so I didn't want to comment as im happy with where parry changes and there reward but I agree with peps post more but i find it funny you go from (Feedback and discussion appreciated.) To someone disagreeing and you jump very quickly to (Discussion is on hold, yeah.)

bob333e
03-21-2018, 01:04 AM
I didn't agree so I didn't want to comment as im happy with where parry changes and there reward but I agree with peps post more but i find it funny you go from (Feedback and discussion appreciated.) To someone disagreeing and you jump very quickly to (Discussion is on hold, yeah.)

Indeed, me too. It all depends how people interact with this post, really. I have no intention whatsoever to engage in prejudiced arguments. It's the way he walked in. Inbefore this turns into a pissing contest of who's more knowledgeable on the matter. Which isn't at all what I intended. Guy can't discuss peacefully, but this is an open forum so, can't really blame him. Gotta expect these things I guess.

ChampionRuby50g
03-21-2018, 01:09 AM
I didn't agree so I didn't want to comment as im happy with where parry changes and there reward but I agree with peps post more but i find it funny you go from (Feedback and discussion appreciated.) To someone disagreeing and you jump very quickly to (Discussion is on hold, yeah.)

I donít think it was more the disagreement, but the tone in which it was disagreed (is that a word) in was not favourable.

Iíd like to discuss but I really canít go in depth, Iím working during the day and all my replies are just ones I write out quickly when I check my phone. Right now Iím on smoko so got a longer break, but it still isnít enough time for me to go in depth and really analyse points sadly. I try to do that when I get home, but then playing the game itself takes priority lol.

bob333e
03-21-2018, 01:12 AM
I don’t think it was more the disagreement, but the tone in which it was disagreed (is that a word) in was not favourable.

I’d like to discuss but I really can’t go in depth, I’m working during the day and all my replies are just ones I write out quickly when I check my phone. Right now I’m on smoko so got a longer break, but it still isn’t enough time for me to go in depth and really analyse points sadly. I try to do that when I get home, but then playing the game itself takes priority lol.

I already PM two mods to close down this thread. By all means, if you wish to discuss any further, do send a PM. Would hate to have you go through the trouble of typing something on here only to find out it got locked down (which I hope will happen sooner than later).

Yeah, the tone. I'm fine with diverging opinions because they're the starting grounds for good discussions. Alas it didn't work.

Knight_Raime
03-21-2018, 01:44 AM
Whoa. I expected a low-blow one-liner and an opt out, but you went through the effort of typing all that. I appreciate.

No, no playful jabs involved. But, I will not debate any of your points. At least not now. I'm sorry, but when you walk up to a thread (which from its title should give you the idea that such a title with such little text in the original post was merely skimming the surface of the whole concept and wasn't a full three-day train of thoughts dumped inside one text) with a Holier Than Thou attitude, I tend to get annoyed real quick. I don't know who you've been arguing with recently, either on here or on Reddit, but I sniff hostility all too well.

I might reconsider debating your points, but it won't be in here, this thread is already lost. It's not an in-depth thread anyway. We can reopen another one later. So I'll keep this short:



There wasn't any concern in my original post. Merely a thought that could have used a proper discussion to refine it. But I chose a bad time I suppose. Someone's been arguing with someone and is still boiling off.



Discussion is on hold, yeah.

Yeah I will apologize about my overall attitude. I still feel like my actual points are good enough for debate.
I've just been having a discussion heavy day and get a little miffed over some things.
If you wish to continue this discussion in pms at a later point i'm fine with this.
And again sorry about being rude.

UbiJurassic
03-21-2018, 01:45 AM
As Fady has requested, we will be closing this thread. :)