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gates123
01-17-2005, 12:01 PM
A few months back there was a thread (which has been deleted) about alleged German anti-gravity devices. It ended up running about 8-9 pages and touched on reports of allied pilots during the war seeing "foo-fighters" and the UFO debate. Of course most people just scoffed at the idea of intersteller travel being attainabale due to the distances involved and wrote it off as psuedo-science and rubbish. Well a new recently published scientific thesis has changed alot of minds on the subject. At the very least its a great read and should open the door on taking the subject seriously again.

Article on report:

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/et_betterodds_050114.html


Full published report:

http://www.ufoskeptic.org/JBIS.pdf



I'm gonna hang my tin-foil hat in the closet for awhile....

gates123
01-17-2005, 12:01 PM
A few months back there was a thread (which has been deleted) about alleged German anti-gravity devices. It ended up running about 8-9 pages and touched on reports of allied pilots during the war seeing "foo-fighters" and the UFO debate. Of course most people just scoffed at the idea of intersteller travel being attainabale due to the distances involved and wrote it off as psuedo-science and rubbish. Well a new recently published scientific thesis has changed alot of minds on the subject. At the very least its a great read and should open the door on taking the subject seriously again.

Article on report:

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/et_betterodds_050114.html


Full published report:

http://www.ufoskeptic.org/JBIS.pdf



I'm gonna hang my tin-foil hat in the closet for awhile....

georgeo76
01-17-2005, 01:28 PM
Yea, it's possible, even likely that there are other intelligent beings out there. But if anyone is going to suggest that they have been here, they'll need absolute proof.

Up until now the whole alien abduction flying saucer phenom is complete rubbish. And the true-believers are a bunch of crackpots and conspiracy nuts who's ideas are more religion than science. It's not so much that I don't believe it's possible, so much as I don't want to be associated with idiots. "The daemon haunted world" is a good book to read to discover what I'm talking about.

LStarosta
01-17-2005, 01:33 PM
I have been anal probed by aliens. Fact.

tsisqua
01-17-2005, 02:19 PM
They are talking about the possibility of the existence of civilizations that are as much as a billion years older than ours. Animals that lived a billion years ago here are mostly extinct, and we don't look anything like we did then. Therefore, the possibility of us detecting, and verifying the presence of such an advanced society is totally subjective to whether or not they want us to see them. I am convinced that a larger, interstellar community could well exist, and we could be, as the study concludes, a part of it. Next to such a civilization, we would be worms, waiting to evolve the intelligence required to become valid community members, in their evaluation. (kinda like here http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

We'll hear from them when they are ready, if they are there. I just hope that, if they are out there, they have their asteroid smashers, and earthquake stoppers, and won't allow us to be extincted like the dinosaurs.

Also, I think that in these advanced alien(?) minds, an awareness of our place in the universe, as well as our efforts in space travel, would certainly mean that we are, at least. almost ready to hear from them.



I hope that they are vegetarians.
Tsisqua

Chuck_Older
01-17-2005, 02:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
I have been anal probed by aliens. Fact. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif Coca-Cola just shot out my nose. Fact

Chuck_Older
01-17-2005, 02:29 PM
On a serious note, folks who argue that life cannot be out there have only the fact that we don't know for sure life is out there, to back them up...which to me is much flimsier than the other side of the argument. The side that says 'yes' has science on it's side, the side that says 'no' has...doubt...on it's side. I am sorry if this offends anyone (who am I kidding, I don't care), but the Science of Doubt will not find me as a member

griego
01-17-2005, 02:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
I have been anal probed by aliens. Fact. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

gates123
01-17-2005, 03:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by griego:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
I have been anal probed by aliens. Fact. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Yes the stories of alien abduction can seem far fetched but after reading the conclusion of the study its really not too hard to grasp that maybe if they are millions of years ahead of us (at least) then one can assume they have the technology to enter our atmosphere, harvest a few genes and leave more or less undetected. That would put us on a level with lab rats which doesnt sit too well with the science community.

LStarosta
01-17-2005, 03:12 PM
And if they are so technologically advanced and superior, why the hell would they be digging through my a$shole?

madsarmy
01-17-2005, 03:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
I have been anal probed by aliens. Fact. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Alien is just your pet name for your finger http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

gates123
01-17-2005, 03:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
And if they are so technologically advanced and superior, why the hell would they be digging through my a$shole? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Perfect example of why you would want to avoid making direct contact with Humans. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

LStarosta
01-17-2005, 03:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by madsarmy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
I have been anal probed by aliens. Fact. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Alien is just your pet name for your finger http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please refrain from posting your sexual fantasies on the Ubi forums. It is in violation with Chapter 237, Paragraph 634, Section C 1/2 of the Ubisoft Bulletin Board Terms of Use.

madsarmy
01-17-2005, 03:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
Please refrain from posting your sexual fantasies on the Ubi forums. It is in violation with Chapter 237, Paragraph 634, Section C 1/2 of the Ubisoft Bulletin Board Terms of Use. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FACT!

gates123
01-17-2005, 03:41 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1241.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

LStarosta
01-17-2005, 03:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gates123:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1241.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

Lav69
01-17-2005, 04:05 PM
I KNOW UFO'S EXSIST! I see them online all the time.

Lav69
01-17-2005, 04:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
I have been anal probed by aliens. Fact. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL....too funny. If I had said it I would've been suspended. Funny none-the-less.

LStarosta
01-17-2005, 07:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
On a serious note, folks who argue that life cannot be out there have only the fact that we don't know for sure life is out there, to back them up...which to me is much flimsier than the other side of the argument. The side that says 'yes' has science on it's side, the side that says 'no' has...doubt...on it's side. I am sorry if this offends anyone (who am I kidding, I don't care), but the Science of Doubt will not find me as a member <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You ever listen to Bad Religion?

MO_JOJO
01-18-2005, 05:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
On a serious note, folks who argue that life cannot be out there have only the fact that we don't know for sure life is out there, to back them up...which to me is much flimsier than the other side of the argument. The side that says 'yes' has science on it's side, the side that says 'no' has...doubt...on it's side. I am sorry if this offends anyone (who am I kidding, I don't care), but the Science of Doubt will not find me as a member <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, but if it's true that there are no 2 snowflakes alike, then I think there's a very good chance that our earth is also unique in that it sustains life. And everyone assumes that if other life-forms do exist, they are smarter than we are. And I realize that Starosta's comments reinforce those assumptions.

No offense, man. Hey, by the way...why do you have my sister's picture on your sig? No wait, don't say it.

Chuck_Older
01-18-2005, 07:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
On a serious note, folks who argue that life cannot be out there have only the fact that we don't know for sure life is out there, to back them up...which to me is much flimsier than the other side of the argument. The side that says 'yes' has science on it's side, the side that says 'no' has...doubt...on it's side. I am sorry if this offends anyone (who am I kidding, I don't care), but the Science of Doubt will not find me as a member <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You ever listen to Bad Religion? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but I went to Catholic High School. Does that count?

Chuck_Older
01-18-2005, 07:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MO_JOJO:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
On a serious note, folks who argue that life cannot be out there have only the fact that we don't know for sure life is out there, to back them up...which to me is much flimsier than the other side of the argument. The side that says 'yes' has science on it's side, the side that says 'no' has...doubt...on it's side. I am sorry if this offends anyone (who am I kidding, I don't care), but the Science of Doubt will not find me as a member <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, but if it's true that there are no 2 snowflakes alike, then I think there's a very good chance that our earth is also unique in that it sustains life. And everyone assumes that if other life-forms do exist, they are smarter than we are. And I realize that Starosta's comments reinforce those assumptions.

No offense, man. Hey, by the way...why do you have my sister's picture on your sig? No wait, don't say it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, see, that's the fallacy. Your argument is that this planet is the only one capable of sustaining life. That argument assumes you know what form other life potentially takes off this planet, and what they need to survive. I'm sorry, but that is not a strong standpoint. You and I don't know what hypothetical other beings need to live. Man didn't know what plants did to live for centuries because sunlight sure does seem to insubstantial to make life, but plants photosynthesize just the same. So to prove your argument, you need proof that life cannot take on forms to survive on other planets that we ourselves cannot live on.

Basically, "if man can't survive there, no imaginable other creature could, either", which is just not a good argument http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Anyhoo

My signature pic is the Clash
My avatar pic is Joe Strummer

Now I don't know your sister, but I don't believe she looks like four guys next to a railroad track http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

TgD Thunderbolt56
01-18-2005, 09:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
...but the Science of Doubt will not find me as a member <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm with chuck here.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Posted by LStarosta: And if they are so technologically advanced and superior, why the hell would they be digging through my a$shole? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...but this point has merit. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


TB

Airmail109
01-18-2005, 09:46 AM
Hmmmm we get nuclear bombs, missiles, spacecraft, high spped fighter jets and then (apparently) aliens coming to visit us. Hmmm I wonder whether they are thinking "ROUGE PLANET"....they are probably S*IT scared that when we get bigger weapons we'll blow them out out the unvierse considering how war like we are lol. Im sure they think that we are barbaric and to be considered HIGHLY DANGEROUS. They probably were taking a look at world war 2 and thought "WHOAAA If they can do that to their own species what will happen if they decide they dont like us in the future".

Friendly_flyer
01-18-2005, 10:14 AM
The "space is big"-argument is a heavyweight. However, one implication of this argument is that as there is likely to be a few advanced civilisations scattered through space, it is also equally likely that they are in galaxies so far off, that they not exist for all practical purposes. In all SF-scenarios where man meets alien, some sort of faster than light propulsion, stasis, wormhole, dimensional jump or other subjects from the more apocryphal branches of science is involved to get around this problem. There is a fair chance there is no way to cover intergalactic distance. I think the Go-229 is the closest I'll ever get to see an UFO.

gates123
01-18-2005, 10:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
The "space is big"-argument is a heavyweight. However, one implication of this argument is that as there is likely to be a few advanced civilisations scattered through space, it is also equally likely that they are in galaxies so far off, that they not exist for all practical purposes. In all SF-scenarios where man meets alien, some sort of faster than light propulsion, stasis, wormhole, dimensional jump or other subjects from the more apocryphal branches of science is involved to get around this problem. There is a fair chance there is no way to cover intergalactic distance. I think the Go-229 is the closest I'll ever get to see an UFO. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



If one reads the full 8 page report it clearly states that an advanced alien civilization would only need 2-3 million years to colonize the Milky Way at 1/3 of light speed. Were not talking about other galaxies and the additional "flight time". It also states that Earth's sun is on the youngest side of our galaxies planatary habitable zone which means most of the other habitable suns are up to a billion years older then ours. Once you do the math its easy to see why the scientist state that Earth should have been discovered a long time ago by advanced Milky Way civilizations and point to the 5% of credible unexplained UFO incidents to support their theory and why the subject needs to be taken seriously AGAIN.

Friendly_flyer
01-18-2005, 10:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gates123:
If one reads the full report it clearly states that an advanced alien civilization would only need 2-3 million years to colonize the Milky Way at 1/3 of light speed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did browse through it; I just don't buy their numbers or conclusions. But what do I know, I'm just a scientist. I just hope I'm right, considering what usually happens when advanced spices meet less advanced ones.

Airmail109
01-18-2005, 10:51 AM
hehe I think our war like nature is the very reason why they havnt colonised us. In fact I think were probably the most advanced species in the world on the art of blowing each other up. I doubt any technology could save some stupid alien from 1000 nukes fired in his direction.

gates123
01-18-2005, 11:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:

I did browse through it; I just don't buy their numbers or conclusions. . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



You know for not reading the study thoroughly and doing your homework you are now assuming your correct and hoping your right, that doesnt sound to scientific. I would think as a scientist you should be ashamed at posting your opinion w/o any data to debate their findings. Then again what do I know I never graduated with a degree... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

civildog
01-18-2005, 11:20 AM
Well, I do have a degree and Masters in Biology and from what I have learned about the development of life on this planet alone, and myriad biomes it can adapt to and thrive in....I believe it would be impossibble for there not to be life on other worlds.

Even Carl Sagan, author of "The Demon Haunted World" admitted that the it would be foolish to think that out of the vastness of the universe we would be the only ones ought there. His argument was that the likelyhood of aliens actually finding us and getting here was highly improbable, if not impossible becuase of all the factors involved.

They'd have to find us for one thing, SETI was listening for years and never really found anything. And if they did find something it would have to have been sent out a long long time ago, so who knows what the race would be like now?

Distance equals a lot of time out there, too. Without some kind of myhtical warp drive that could get you from A to B with absolute instantaneous travel time there is no way to bypass the time differential. Once you got here it'd be a lot of water under the bridge back home, and then by the time you got back home who knows what it'd be like. 50+ years could pass just from one round trip to some of our near stars.

So those are the two most logical arguments against CONTACT, but there is no logical argument against LIFE on other planets. It's even been mathematically proven.

So as much as I'd love a ride in a flying saucer the only ones I'll probably ever see are the ones flying out of that secret Nazi base under NeuSchwabenland in Antarctica.

gates123
01-18-2005, 11:28 AM
Guys read the full 8 pages of the study before assuming the things they taught you in post-graduate school apply to todays advancements. Also Carl Sagans philosophy doesnt hold up against this study. A million year old alien civilization would be far more advanced in communications then our newly discovered 80 year old radio waves.

Just found this that is not entirely OT:

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/01-06a-05.asp

To really have an understanding of the scope of observations, at least from an aviation perspective check out this, it also has all allied ww2 foo-fighter reports catagorized.

http://www.narcap.org/reports/tr-4c.doc

Chuck_Older
01-18-2005, 01:32 PM
Never went to Post Grad

never finished my Degree

but I can still think for myself http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

civildog
01-18-2005, 05:11 PM
And that's all that really matters in this world or any other, Chuck! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

civildog
01-18-2005, 05:27 PM
And ****! I miss The Clash! Pre-Combat Rock, of course.

VOL_Hans
01-18-2005, 05:32 PM
Well, im sold. Can we get flying disks or triangles in the game?

We can use the Spit Mk9 or LA-7's FM for them! And we can use ShVAK's to represent thier Lazer beams!

Ok, seriously...Theres all sorts of odd, but not quite backed up reports. As an example, one F-15C pilot flying over Germany reported time warping to see a formation of B-17's getting Flak'd and harassed by fighters, and P-51's deuling it out. Supposedly somebody even shot part of his plane up. And, supposedly the German fighter units have record of seing strange craft, along with a description of the F-15's shape, bearing USAF markings.

But nobody remembers the pilot, the plane number, or exactly what German JG it was that has the report in thier WWII war records, or what day exactly...etc

WTE_Galway
01-18-2005, 05:37 PM
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0PwAmA6kS4En2T7Gg9*HAvcIBdw4EqQZpnEtWPmT1VfGm6X3Au McBiiSAx1!mKmuofCk49AvjUoQezZmQqZlfXCMRq4M9aCxG/mib.jpg

civildog
01-18-2005, 05:50 PM
Anybody remember the incident recorded by the Dutch? F-16s that chased something weird back in the mid-90s and released the radar tapes to the world news?

I still think it was Nazi superweapons piloted by surgically altered SS cyborgs and run by a secret SS program which escaped to Antarctica by U-boat and now periodically fly out of the underground bases to gather intelligence and test weapons. Oh, and they are also engaged in an underground war against the reptoids using Illuminati mind-controlled armies built from missing children and led by Wackenhut commandos.

I know, I've seen them. But my tinfoil hat and stacks of old newspapers protect me.

LStarosta
01-18-2005, 06:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
Never went to Post Grad

never finished my Degree

but I can still think for myself http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This guy's more punk than me!

Do you still wear your combat boots to shows?

Yeah, I went to a Catholic school too... Scared me out of being one. Oh well, what can ya do?

-HH- Beebop
01-18-2005, 07:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tsisqua:
...I just hope that, if they are out there, they have their asteroid smashers, and earthquake stoppers, and won't allow us to be extincted like the dinosaurs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Personaly I'm a little more Darwinian, survival of the fittest.
If they're out there, watching, our being able to control earthquakes and other natural disaters as well as finding a solution to asteriod strikes may well be their litmus test to see if we're worthy.
Why include us now when we can't even get along as a species? They probably see us as a danger to the rest of the universe. What would we humans do if we were given great scientific advances? Given what we've done with the ones we've discovered so far, like atomic energy, it's a scary thought.
Right now we live in Waynes World, "I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy".

My Million Dollars worth. (based on someones statement that if you feel your opinion is only worth 2 cents.............)

WTE_Ibis
01-19-2005, 02:06 AM
Since you have betrayed our trust with this,

"Originally posted by LStarosta:
I have been anal probed by aliens. Fact."

I will have to come back and kill you.

Sincerely, ET. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

MO_JOJO
01-19-2005, 02:42 AM
Is probability science? Then casinos are science labs, eh?

I never said there wasn't or couldn't be life on other planets. I was stating that it seems like everyone assumes there is, due to the odds (not science) when considering the vastness of the universe. Not only is this assumption made, there seems to be the assumption that this life is more intelligent than our own. Maybe if there are planets that are even capable of sustaining life, all the life they have on hand is some plants or some fish. But that wouldn't sell any pulp science fiction or appeal to Spielberg in a screenplay.

I think what a lot of people call science is just wishful thinking. Maybe that one guy justs WISHES he'd get probed by Luke Skywalker or Darth Vader.

HansKnappstick
01-19-2005, 03:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
On a serious note, folks who argue that life cannot be out there have only the fact that we don't know for sure life is out there, to back them up...which to me is much flimsier than the other side of the argument. The side that says 'yes' has science on it's side, the side that says 'no' has...doubt...on it's side. I am sorry if this offends anyone (who am I kidding, I don't care), but the Science of Doubt will not find me as a member <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't want to try to disrupt your integrity, but a doubtful (or shoul I say sceptical) approach is one of the cornerstones of science.

Science withoubt scepsis is an oxymoron. If you leave that out, you end up with metaphysics. Just like Ptolomeis (the astronomer), who "decided" that the planetary orbits are circles, just becouse circles are pretty, and didn't bother to ask "oh, is that an argument?"

HansKnappstick
01-19-2005, 03:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MO_JOJO:
Is probability science? Then casinos are science labs, eh?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, but many scientifical results have been achieved by the correct application of probability calculus.

Adqui nescis, mi fili, quintilla sapientia mundus regitur?

Even more applicable in the age of wide-spread "education"... How sad.

ploughman
01-19-2005, 03:38 AM
Is probability science? Quantum Electro-dynamics. Seems to me, as a layman who accidentally read a book by big-brain Richard Feynman, that the only way to describe events, when viewed through the lens of QED, was as a function of probability.

I'm sure I've left myself open to ridicule by those more closely associated with brain-achingly obtuse hyper-physics than myself (MA Modern History, although I would walk past the Physics Dept. on the way to the Pub), so fire away.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HansKnappstick
01-19-2005, 04:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I'm sure I've left myself open to ridicule by those more closely associated with brain-achingly obtuse hyper-physics than myself (MA Modern History, although I would walk past the Physics Dept. on the way to the Pub), so fire away.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No you haven't ridiculed yourself. Probability calculus is fundamental to many "classical" branches of physics, such as gas theory, where we apply random distributions (of speed etc.) _and_ Newtonian motion laws to "great numbers" of gas molecules rather than following each of them separately.

MO_JOJO
01-19-2005, 04:03 AM
I'm not a scientist...I'm just asking. I wasn't sure about probability and science other than it is probably http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif fuel for ideas and research to prove or disprove the said probabilities. I don't mean to say that it has no place in the fields of sciences...particularly in mathematics.

I neither say there is or isn't life elsewhere, but I see the possibility either way, which is why I mentioned snowflakes' uniqueness. How many snowflakes have there been? The answer to all the above: I don't know.

I agree with HansKnappStick, who has so wisely stated that doubt is important. It's like the idea of "innocent until proven guilty". The burden of proof is on science.

By the way, what is that Latin phrase?

Bsnakeman
01-19-2005, 06:14 AM
Humans are so arrogant/dumb when they think that they are the only inteligent beings in this known Universe. We can´t forget about other dimensions of existence even other Universes. I feel that we´re falling angels in a painstaking evolution towards the Creator or whatever is called who or what has created us.
I don´t believe in witches but they do exist, oh, they do exist indeed !
Best,

HansKnappstick
01-19-2005, 06:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MO_JOJO:
By the way, what is that Latin phrase? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"adqui nescis..." means:
"Do you know, my son, how little wisdom is needed to rule the world?"
It was attributed to chancellor Axel Oxenstierna, to Innocence III before him, and even to Cicero.

I meant that it is disturbing to see how many people feel entitled to discuss things that they have no idea about. Gee, they are going to _vote_ if there is UFO someday!

Instead of investigating each and any of the "sightings" independently, throughly, and in an unbiased way. The fact that 324640541 "sightings" so far were hoaxes (were they? I don't know!) does not mean that the 324640542nd "sighting" will not be the real "contact"!.

Unspoken assumptions and arrogance are just plain wrong in science. Remember this physics professor who by the end of 19th c. wrote: "There will never be any flying craft heavier than air. The laws of physics forbid it".

Or remember all those astronomers and other scientists who were rejecting "stones falling from the skies" as myths.



Answering your original question: yes, you can test theories that rely on the probability calculus in a cassino. However,
1. it would cost you a handsome sum
2. it would be difficult to find a cassino where the staff does not influence the results.

So far, making use of the pseudo-random number generator in your computer may be a better idea.

Friendly_flyer
01-19-2005, 09:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gates123:
I would think as a scientist you should be ashamed at posting your opinion w/o any data to debate their findings. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So that's how you want it? Riiight:

The main part of the article is basically just a review of the more apocryphal brands of physics and old reports and hearings on UFOs. Though fascinating in their own right, they do not contribute to our knowledge of whether there are actual alien civilisations out there. Additionally, the article does not offer anything new in calculating the chance that there is an alien civilisation in reasonable proximity to our own solar system (which was my main point).

The only actual numbers Deardoff & al are using (apart from an optimistic 5% unexplainable reports) is the old data Fermi used in his original assertion of the problem. This data is long since outdated, but is fundamentally the same as Dracen used in his formula, made famous by C. Sagan. For those that like numbers, here is an online Dracen calculator:

http://www.classbrain.com/artmovies/publish/article_50.shtml

Notice that the default numbers in the calculator are outdated.

A number of their other assumptions are also suspect:<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> You can travel faster than light if your civilisation is advanced enough.
<LI> High civilisations last for millions of years
<LI> Any advanced civilisation wish to travel and explore the universe.
<LI> Humans are somehow to underdeveloped or to dangerous to make contact with.[/list]

The three first are assumptions that we have no data to evaluate, thus they remain speculative assumptions, and bear no scientific weight accordingly. The fourth, is an ad hoc explanation, with no foundation in the data generally available or in the text it self.

Actually, if we are to talk abut scientific methods here; let€s examine two sentences from the chapter on recent scientific advances:

Quote:
Reluctance to do so could result in our failure to realize that observations of €˜genuine€ ET visitations have been occurring. This approach, which we follow here, explores the likelihood that €˜we actually do belong to a large civilisation but are unaware of that fact€

This paper starts off assuming that we actually have being wisited by ETs a priori! They have no suggestions for tests that would reveal it if it really is so, no calculation for the likelihood of any ET civilisations. They simply approach old reports and hearings with assuming we are not alone. This, Gates 123, is not a scientific approach.

I restate my original point: There may well be advanced civilisations out there, but the probability is that they are too far off to actually matter.

gates123
01-19-2005, 10:09 AM
http://www.ufoskeptic.org/JBIS.pdf

What the study has accomplished is that the subject of UFO's must be taken seriously again. Ever since the mid-60's the established science communities would'nt touch the subject due to the riducule factor (who started this?). What these guys have done is at least state why it should'nt be a laughed at anymore and why it needs to be taken seriously by science. That in its own right is bold when faced with the fact that most of the science communites have preconcieved notions that FTL travel is impossible. This is the modern day version of what Galileo was up against. Its hard to fathom but if just ONE of these reports http://www.narcap.org/reports/tr-4c.doc are true then their publication is spot on. Which is why they are advocating further study and why the average scientist needs to open their mind to a subject that they were told not to touch.

"Reluctance to do so could result in our failure to realize that observations of €˜genuine€ ET visitations have been occurring"

They are not assuming that we've been visited, they are saying that there is alot of data of past sightings and reports that has been overlooked which could be in fact actual visitations and THATS what can't take place anymore. Basically switching the tables of how its studied. Instead of writing all sightings off as assumed terrestrial, Venus, hoexes or fakes they are saying that they have to be studied to prove they are actually terrestrial, Venus, hoexes or fakes before moving on, which is more scientific then just to assume that witnesses are on crack.

Friendly_flyer
01-19-2005, 11:07 AM
Notice that I nowhere have stated that we shouldn€t investigate reports of UFOs with an open mind.

I think our dispute is driven mainly by a cultural US/non-US difference. While UFO's appear to be a topic that fuels a lot of emotions in the US, the more laid-back parts of the world do not care that much. When we cut right down to the bone, we do not know anything. At least where I come from, the general attitude (even in the scientific community) is to treat the question accordingly. A common sentiment might run: It is most likely life out there, there might be civilisations and it might not be. As long as UFOs fail to land in front of the Parliament to greet our PM, it doesn't really matter much.

gates123
01-19-2005, 11:19 AM
Sorry but I can't think of a bigger story. Especially if were dumping billions of dollars and Euros at outdated space exploration techniques when (assuming the study can be right) quite possibly other civilizations have known about and have been visiting us for some time now. I would think understanding them and their knowledge of space travel would be a far greater leap for mankind then any moon shot. Hell whos to say that we are not whats left over of a past (over 50,000 years) colonization effort? What about those stories of Atlantis and past pre-egyption advanced civilizations. How did the Egyptions find the knowledge to build the Pyramids? Early Hindu texts speak of ancient flying machines, can they all be "myths"? Why in recent discoveries has it been proven that modern man and Cromagnum man were living at the same time? What happened to Darwinism here? Can there be links? It all can be looked at as extremely complicated subjects yet all options and an open mind must be left on the table.

civildog
01-19-2005, 05:55 PM
Bsnakeman...."I don´t believe in witches but they do exist, oh, they do exist indeed !"

LOL! They do indeed! My first wife was one, dang her cheating eyes!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Friendly_flyer
01-20-2005, 03:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gates123:
Sorry but I can't think of a bigger story. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed, if we had any way of knowing UFOs existed. Confirmed contact with an extra terrestrial civilisation would be the greatest news since the taming of fire. As long as CETI (the only serious investigation into the matter) keep coming up blank, we have no indications that non-terrestrial higher civilisations exit, that€s why it€s no great news.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> €¦ if were dumping billions of dollars and Euros at outdated space exploration techniques when (assuming the study can be right) quite possibly other civilizations have known about and have been visiting us for some time now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, what you say is as follows: There might be aliens out there, so we should stop doing space explorations? I fail to se the logic of the argument.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Hell whos to say that we are not whats left over of a past (over 50,000 years) colonization effort? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I seeeee €¦

OK, now you have left the realm of science, even pseudoscience. Considering what we know about the human family tree, your suggestions implies that Australian aborigines, Sub-Saharan Africans and major parts of the Asian population are of a different species to ours (assuming we are the €œleft overs€), as they branched of the human family tree before that (Australia was colonised 60.000 years ago, the Bushmen may have become a separate line as long as 100.000 years ago). Claiming that you are form a different species than e.g. Nelson Mandela (he€s a Bushman) is not only ridiculous, but also not likely to get you many friens.

I do not feel inclined to answer the rest of your argument. I don€t think anything I can say will get you to reconsider your notions. However, the last one has some formal errors in it:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Why in recent discoveries has it been proven that modern man and Cromagnum man were living at the same time? What happened to Darwinism here? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Cro-Magnon (no €"um ending, it€s French, not Latin) did not live contemporary with modern man, they where modern man. They are the ones that made the cave paintings in France and Spain. Actually, they still live there. The Basques share some skeletal peculiarities with the Cro-Magnon. Their contemporaries was Neanderthals in Europe and the Middle East, late Homo erectus in East Asia. The newly discovered Flores-people has shown us that erectus-like humans lived besides man until at least 18.000 years ago. I can assure you that science is very exited by the new find, but at no point does the fact that a primitive group of people managed to hang on in a remote place indicate anything about UFOs.

I recommend a course in human palaeontology.

GAU-8
01-20-2005, 03:17 AM
now, im not saying i believe it, nor am i disbelieving it.....

there is a problem for many people out there, if you factor in "aliens"," civilisation that is not earthbound", or other criteria.. that in turn kills certain religion/s to many people. not all, but a lot

how would you feel if the religion you believe in is "proven dead" because of aliens not being included in several religious books.

scary stuff when what you believe in is turned FALSE.

MO_JOJO
01-20-2005, 04:18 AM
I would not turn from my beliefs if aliens landed in my parking space at work. I don't believe we're given all the answers, which is where faith comes to play. That is also why I don't say definitively that there cannot be life elsewhere...but again it's right back to the aliens thing. Assuming other life is as smart or smarter than us. Maybe we'd be the ones to discover them and visit their planet.

But getting back to your question, the aliens would have to adjust their religion, not me.

HansKnappstick
01-20-2005, 05:34 AM
I just made an interesting observation:

1. a technological civilisation can probably achieve anything, given enough time. (say, 2000 years ago, inhabitants of Europe were not able to travel across Atlantic. 100 years ago, transatlantic travel was quite common and humans just learnt to fly, but a journey to the Moon remained a dream. Today, a manned mission on Mars or near space colonies are feasible, even if the cost is discouraging). Thus, they may start colonising other planets and even other stellar systems, when their advancements allow surpassing the technological and economical bareer.

2. But there are many risks inherent to the technology oriented civilisation: we may nuke ourselves up, pollute the environment so that we cannot breathe anymore, or genetically manipulate ourselves so that we are not ourselves anymore (personally, I believe in the last scenario). Compare Exit Mundi (http://www.xs4all.nl/~mke/exitmundi.htm) . In order to avoid these risks, a civilisation should disperse on other planets as soon as possible.

Quite a paradox, isn't it?

MO_JOJO, I am with you in your last answer!

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
01-20-2005, 05:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
And if they are so technologically advanced and superior, why the hell would they be digging through my a$shole? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps because they heard a rumour that all human leaders talk out of thier's, and are trying to establish contact?

Friendly_flyer
01-20-2005, 06:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansKnappstick:
Compare http://www.xs4all.nl/~mke/exitmundi.htm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great site, thanks!

Yes, the above mentioned risks would be a good reason to go space-exploring. It might also be the the reason there appears no-one has gotten around to do it...

gates123
01-20-2005, 09:40 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
I seeeee €¦

OK, now you have left the realm of science, even pseudoscience.



Thats great news! See I wasn't and will not argue that humans are whats left over of a long ago colonization effort. Not enough proof but one can never rule anything out in human discovery. But for you as a "scientist" to at least debate openely the UFO question in a scientific way (not to be claimed under psuedo-science) my friend is progress. That is the goal of the study.

F0_Dark_P
01-20-2005, 11:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CivilDog:
Anybody remember the incident recorded by the Dutch? F-16s that chased something weird back in the mid-90s and released the radar tapes to the world news?

I still think it was Nazi superweapons piloted by surgically altered SS cyborgs and run by a secret SS program which escaped to Antarctica by U-boat and now periodically fly out of the underground bases to gather intelligence and test weapons. Oh, and they are also engaged in an underground war against the reptoids using Illuminati mind-controlled armies built from missing children and led by Wackenhut commandos.

I know, I've seen them. But my tinfoil hat and stacks of old newspapers protect me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>it is not something new that the germans had super weapons

look at this for example

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Nahoj/ww2.jpg

and that was 60 yers ago, i dont want to think of what the nazis have on Antarctica now http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Friendly_flyer
01-20-2005, 11:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gates123:
But for you as a "scientist" to at least debate openely the UFO question in a scientific way (not to be claimed under psuedo-science) my friend is progress. That is the goal of the study <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I€m afraid you€re barking up the wrong tree. As I stated, I€m not categorically against the existence of ETs, nor discussing them from a serious scientific point of view (or even hypothetical viewpoints late at night). The problem is that the same courtesy is usually not extended the other way.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Not enough proof but one can never rule anything out in human discovery. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, let€s take a look at what science has to say about extra terrestrial colonisation:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> Humans share 98% of their genes with the chimpanzee. We have a nice series of remains linking us firmly to the vertebrate line. The very workings of our genome are fundamentally similar to all other living organisms, including bacteria. If we are €œplanted€ here, then so is the rest of all life, whose tracks we now can follow as far back as 3.500.000.000 years, 3/4s of our planets geological history. Now, for aliens going around planting bacteria€¦
<LI> ETs do not look like humans. Our physical form is a result of hundreds of millions years worth of evolution and random events. Recreating our evolution (and therefore our shape) requires exactly same series of events for the same untold number of years. Of coerce, if our universe is endlessly large and will last eternally, the same thing will happened again, but probability rests rather heavily against it happening close to us in time or space. The nearest civilised ETs (if there are any), probably looks like something from a bad acid trip.
<LI> For ETs to be colonising Earth behind our back, they need to establish themselves in areas where they won€t be noticed. Today, this leaves Antarctica, Central Australia, Greenland and the Gobi desert. Looking like an arachnid, squid, giant slug or something like that will likely make people notice you. If they have access to some sort of invisibility device (it€s not unthinkable), chances are they€ll still be noticed in more densely populated areas. Also, their waste, bacteria and so one would sooner or later turn up.
<LI> One of the main argument against taking the majority of reports on ET visitations, is the fact that they seem to be culturally linked. No-one in China sees UFOs. The same experience that in the US will be reported as an encounter will probably be interpreted as a run-in with an angel or the Holly Virgin in Mexico or south Europe, whiteout me converting to Catholicism for that reason. There are even corners of the earth where such an experience will be blamed on goblins! Obviously, something is going on, the interesting question is if it€s happening in peoples minds (which the cultural bias seem to suggest) or is related to some physical phenomenon.
[/list]
What makes me quite sure we are not dealing with a physical phenomenon is the extreme fixation on anal probing in reports from the US. My guess is that if we should get contact, it will be through CETI, or something similar, not through assuming they are already here behind our backs. If they actually are here, successfully keeping hidden, they are very good at it, and it is doubtful if we will find them directly.

LilHorse
01-20-2005, 11:47 AM
Just because string theory posits there are parallel dimentions doesn't mean they are there. Just because astro-physics posits the existence of traversable wormholes doesn't mean they exist. Just because a civilization might actually survive for a million years doesn't mean that it will "advance" as we understand it or in the way they describe.

The reason science doesn't take this stuff seriously? Lack of observable phenomena. If we saw these things zipping around everyday, all day, everywhere then science would be compelled to answer the question of what these things are. But at best what we have are anecdotes, cr@ppy photos or film or video and outright hoaxes.

So I'm still with Enrico. Where are they?

gates123
01-20-2005, 12:27 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
+ One of the main argument against taking the majority of reports on ET visitations, is the fact that they seem to be culturally linked. No-one in China sees UFOs.


Tell that to the Chinese:
http://nytimes.com/library/world/asia/011100china-ufos.html


As far as past colonization, that is not what this thread is about and no need to start a debate over it, I'm not convinced it was a reality unlike other people who have wrote books on the subject.

gates123
01-20-2005, 12:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:
But at best what we have are anecdotes, cr@ppy photos or film or video and outright hoaxes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well tell that to the 100's of ex-military and civilian personell who have submitted there testimonies to the US Congress.

You can do your homework here:
http://www.disclosureproject.com

http://www.topsecrettestimony.com/6monthsummary.htm

or watch the national press conference here:
http://www.netro.ca/disclosure/npccmenu.htm

The writing has been on the walls, you just need to read it.

Friendly_flyer
01-20-2005, 01:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gates123:
Tell that to the Chinese:
http://nytimes.com/library/world/asia/011100china-ufos.html
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, my fault. That should have been "used to be no UFOs in China". This just goes to show what cultural influence can do.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As far as past colonization, that is not what this thread is about and no need to start a debate over it, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, you started going all von D¤niken on me. As far as science goes, we might hail from aliens, but then so would all living things. Actually, there's a theory that suggests "life stuff" (that is, complex carbon molecules) is common in space and will rain down on all planets, giving a foundation for life. It's a new and more coherent version of the old omnispermia theory from the renaissance that stated that the seeds of life was everywhere. This was used to explain that mice could appear in seemingly closed rooms, and remains of plants and animals found deep in the earth (fossils). The old theory was really religiously based (Gods Hand is everywhere still), but the new version seem to have some merit.

Lilhorse has a very good point: All the photos and films of UFOs are extraordinarily blury. It's not dissimilar to the Loch Ness monster phenomenon. As a biologist I would really be overjoyed if Nessie was real, but from a scientific point of view I'm afraid all evidence points to the opposite.

gates123
01-20-2005, 02:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:


Lilhorse has a very good point: All the photos and films of UFOs are extraordinarily blury. It's not dissimilar to the Loch Ness monster phenomenon. As a biologist I would really be overjoyed if Nessie was real, but from a scientific point of view I'm afraid all evidence points to the opposite. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Well maybe you should take into account that most of the photos are shot while the object is moving which creates motion blur. Rememeber its worldwide phenomenom, not contained only in a Scottish lake. Here have at it:

http://www.ufoevidence.org/photographs/photohome.asp

Friendly_flyer
01-20-2005, 03:12 PM
You're really into this, aren€t you?

I checked up on one of the stories from the photo archive, really because that story has some nice photos of a P-40 and a Corsair in it.

Here's the report with pictures: http://www.rense.com/general41/flying.htm

Note that they are, by UFO standards, "crystal clear".

Now, I have spent the last hour or so (yes, I'm home from work today, sick) looking up this event. What seem to have happened is that a young man, Simon Anderson, was lucky and caught something strange on his camera.

So far so good, but this is where the twists start: Only Simon Anderson filmed or photographed the event. It seems that no-one else saw the object, despite there being 150 thousand or so people attentively looking at the two vintage aircrafts flying bye, camera ready. There where no writings in the papers, on the internet or other public fora, despite the UFO almost seem to crash with the two planes. Just to add to this, Simon Anderson took similar pictures of an UFO (this time flying with two Spitfires and a Mustang) at last years Goodwood air show! No-one else seems to have noticed this time either€¦

Don€t tell me the evil, Orwellian government of GB has put a lid on this, tracking down every spectator and ordered them to keep their gob shut.

gates123
01-20-2005, 04:39 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
You're really into this, aren€t you?

I checked up on one of the stories from the photo archive, really because that story has some nice photos of a P-40 and a Corsair in it.


Good for you Flyer! you can Feel free to explain the other 299 pictures. I was just posting a rebuttal to the notion that all UFO pictures are blurry and most likely hoexed. Which is entirely untrue. If you feel the need to give up on your study of Biology and persue the unknowns of Ufology by all means the field is wide open and theres plenty of research data and first hand testomony to go around. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Again I'll point to this link:
http://www.topsecrettestimony.com/6monthsummary.htm

civildog
01-20-2005, 04:48 PM
Also speaking as biologist (but not practicing, just well-overeducated as one) AND as a romantic in the classical sense I prefer to believe there is far more mystery in the world and universe than science will ever know. Which means it's more fun and interesting to live in a world where UFO's, secret Nazi underground Illuminati armies, Bigfoot, and a fair tax code might exist than one in which they don't.

Einstein said that when a man stops feeling wonder then he is already dead.

And speaking as a man of Scottish descent: who says that wee Nessie isn't real, you sassenach!

F0_Dark_P !!!! Love that picture!!! Did you get it off www.somethingawful.com? (http://www.somethingawful.com?) They have some pretty hilarious stuff like this there.

F0_Dark_P
01-20-2005, 05:36 PM
CivilDog i love it to, it is really cool http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif but i dont where it is from, i got that pick from one of my squad mates, but i can check with him if he have more picks or if he knows a site with similar picks

OnT: http://www.rense.com/general41/flying.htm
lol if that is not a hoexe my name is $crooge McDuck http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif no one but the guy that took the photo saw it, not even the pilots that almost collide with the thing, yes certainly http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

LilHorse
01-21-2005, 10:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gates123:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:
But at best what we have are anecdotes, cr@ppy photos or film or video and outright hoaxes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well tell that to the 100's of ex-military and civilian personell who have submitted there testimonies to the US Congress.

You can do your homework here:
http://www.disclosureproject.com

http://www.topsecrettestimony.com/6monthsummary.htm

or watch the national press conference here:
http://www.netro.ca/disclosure/npccmenu.htm

The writing has been on the walls, you just need to read it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gee, thanks for telling me to do my homework. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Yeah, I've seen those sites before and they amount to.....not much. I especially like the "top secret" one. Why, it's so top secret it's on the internet! What an incredible cover! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

The things these people saw or thought they saw, their reasons for saying what they say, the reasons why the government might care or not are so myriad that only the most tenuous of connections can be made. And that's only if you suspend a good amount of reason, stand on one foot, cover one eye and whistle Dixie. Such are the things conspiracy theories are made of.

Is it worth investigation? Sure, why not. Heck, I'd like it to be true. I really would. I've seen things flying in the sky that defy my ability to explain. I've heard stories from people who know somebody who knows somebody who has seen flying saucers in hangars at Area 51. But all this doesn't amount to enough to warrent serious scientific inquiry.

Friendly_flyer
01-21-2005, 04:33 PM
You are right; Gates, some of the pictures in the base aren€t that bad.

Just to round this off, I€ll just point out why science is so sceptical about going into research about UFOs. Take this picture:

http://www.ufoevidence.org/Photographs/Photo328.htm

Though nice and clear, it doesn€t warrant scientific investigation, as LilHorse said. It has no data connected to it, not even original photographer. Real research is costly; it will probably run into hundreds of thousands of pounds per case. With only a picture and, in the case of Simon Anderson, a single witness to go by, researching will just be throwing money out the window, money that could otherwise go into i.e. cancer-research.

When there is proper data to go by, investigations are actually launched. Take a look at this:

http://www.ufoevidence.org/Photographs/Photo195.htm

This case is well documented to the extreme, with high tech equipment and dependable, well trained personnel doing everything right. But still, it€s doubtful if they€ll ever be able to conclude anything from it. There is only so much modern science can do.

One of the problems of science is that it needs results to be replicateable. Lightning can be observed and measured anywhere on earth; accordingly the phenomenon was understood fairly early. Ball lightning, being very rear, is not yet fully understood. A one off occurrence like the Mexican military plane experienced is even harder to come to grips with, as there is nothing to compare it to, and no independent data to test out hypotheses against. Still, the Mexican government launched an investigation. If UFO cover-up is a world wide conspiracy, at least the Mexicans aren€t in on it.

Still, like CivilDog said, there are more things out there than we know about. I very much share his sentiments on the mysteries of the world. However, I also agree with Admiral Lord Hill-Norton, interviewed for the €œtop secret files€:

€œThis should be the subject of rigorous scientific investigation and not the subject of rubbishing by tabloid newspapers€

I very much think the gentleman would include parts of the internet under the heading €œtabloid newspaper€ if asked.

civildog
01-21-2005, 04:39 PM
Not just "parts of the internet", but VAST areas of the internet fall under that category!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

LStarosta
01-21-2005, 04:58 PM
Gates, are you still a virgin?

And no, those alien anal probes don't count.

civildog
01-21-2005, 05:01 PM
We don't have to hear about your butt again, do we?

LStarosta
01-21-2005, 05:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CivilDog:
We don't have to hear about your butt again, do we? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I kid! I kid!



http://www.leftmedia.org/UFO/UFOPhotographs/Photos1/MexicanAirForce3.jpg

I couldve made something like this in MS Paint...

heywooood
01-21-2005, 06:30 PM
Gates - I had no idea you were an x-filer....

I think the purpose of the thread is to wonder why there is only SETI to date, examining the universe for some contact when there have been reported world wide so many visual sightings and even a few of LaStarostas' favorite experiences http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif....

Why arent more cameras and 'scopes pointed upward in various remote and or populated areas...?

I will relate this and you can make of it whatever you want to..
I am a family man of 44 yrs of age - I have an 18y/o son and have been married for 20 yrs last Nov.

4 years ago - in July or August..during a patial lunar eclipse...thats where the earths shadow crosses the moon... My wife called to me to come outside and look. I looked....just then a departing flight from Lindberg field flew over - a 737 of Southwest livery....the time was 9:05 PM....just as I was tracking the plane with my Mk1 eyeball I saw another shape..all black...no lights on it at all...no nav lights , nothing - cross the airliners course at 90 deg. angle above him....I cant say how high it was or how large it was...it was dark, and it was FAST.

How Fast?....it crossed the sky from directly overhead to the horizon in 3 seconds...maybe 4 seconds.

I dont know if it was silent because the residual noise of the 737 was still occuring..hell it was still well above the horizon on its course. But as I focused on the wedge - I call it that because thats what it was...I strained to hear it and there was nothing but the Pratts quiet whine from the airliner..it had those newer hi-bipass turbofans on it that have made my life and my property values so much better...

So this black wedge went over in seconds...I called Lindberg tower to see if they had seen it..this was before 911 but lights out airplanes should never occur especially near a commercial airport...

The supervisor at Lindberg asks me what time
9:05 pm -I rushed in the house and looked at the clock - then called info to get the number to Lindberg... he says they didnt paint it - not on radar...how high - how fast? I told him what I saw - he checked around the room - I heard him do it....no one painted it.

I hung up and called TRACON... they track all aircraft once their respective towers release them...TRACON guy asks to state what I saw as precisely as I can remember... he says "any idea how high it was?" I guessed anywhere from 5-7000 miles....any higher and this Wedge would have to be several city blocks long. period.
I asked him if anybody saw it or if any other flights in the area reported anything - he says he will call me back and asks how to reach me....I confirm his name and ID and tell him.

We hang up and I have the hair on the back of my neck standing straight up...

My wife did not see it...we were standing 3 feet apart - but because I was looking at the airliner - I saw the Wedge - and by the time I pointed and said "HEY" - it was gone. FAST FAST FAST.

10 min later my phone rings- MR Heywooood? ..
yes - this guy is a different guy...sounds in the background are different and more distant sounding...I'm sorry to say we have no confirmed aircraft flying in the manner you described in that area... can you tell anything else about the aircraft?.... I could only repeat what I have already said here.

Well - I'm sorry - there were no contacts in the area at that time.

Were there any government or military flights scheduled? do you know?...

He repeats very slowly and more directly - there were no other contacts in that area at that time...

ok....

Thats all true - I wonder what it was...Penetrator?...it was very very big.

civildog
01-21-2005, 06:35 PM
I have chills.

I have had more than a few very interesting and similar experiences here in the Pacific NW. Unfortunately I don't walk around with a camera around my neck every waking moment.

And fortunately none involved neither mine nor LStarosta's nether regions.

LStarosta
01-21-2005, 06:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heywooood:
Gates - I had no idea you were an x-filer....

I think the purpose of the thread is to wonder why there is only SETI to date, examining the universe for some contact when there have been reported world wide so many visual sightings and even a few of LaStarostas' favorite experiences http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif....

Why arent more cameras and 'scopes pointed upward in various remote and or populated areas...?

I will relate this and you can make of it whatever you want to..
I am a family man of 44 yrs of age - I have an 18y/o son and have been married for 20 yrs last Nov.

4 years ago - in July or August..during a patial lunar eclipse...thats where the earths shadow crosses the moon... My wife called to me to come outside and look. I looked....just then a departing flight from Lindberg field flew over - a 737 of Southwest livery....the time was 9:05 PM....just as I was tracking the plane with my Mk1 eyeball I saw another shape..all black...no lights on it at all...no nav lights , nothing - cross the airliners course at 90 deg. angle above him....I cant say how high it was or how large it was...it was dark, and it was FAST.

How Fast?....it crossed the sky from directly overhead to the horizon in 3 seconds...maybe 4 seconds.

I dont know if it was silent because the residual noise of the 737 was still occuring..hell it was still well above the horizon on its course. But as I focused on the wedge - I call it that because thats what it was...I strained to hear it and there was nothing but the Pratts quiet whine from the airliner..it had those newer hi-bipass turbofans on it that have made my life and my property values so much better...

So this black wedge went over in seconds...I called Lindberg tower to see if they had seen it..this was before 911 but lights out airplanes should never occur especially near a commercial airport...

The supervisor at Lindberg asks me what time
9:05 pm -I rushed in the house and looked at the clock - then called info to get the number to Lindberg... he says they didnt paint it - not on radar...how high - how fast? I told him what I saw - he checked around the room - I heard him do it....no one painted it.

I hung up and called TRACON... they track all aircraft once their respective towers release them...TRACON guy asks to state what I saw as precisely as I can remember... he says "any idea how high it was?" I guessed anywhere from 5-7000 miles....any higher and this Wedge would have to be several city blocks long. period.
I asked him if anybody saw it or if any other flights in the area reported anything - he says he will call me back and asks how to reach me....I confirm his name and ID and tell him.

We hang up and I have the hair on the back of my neck standing straight up...

My wife did not see it...we were standing 3 feet apart - but because I was looking at the airliner - I saw the Wedge - and by the time I pointed and said "HEY" - it was gone. FAST FAST FAST.

10 min later my phone rings- MR Heywooood? ..
yes - this guy is a different guy...sounds in the background are different and more distant sounding...I'm sorry to say we have no confirmed aircraft flying in the manner you described in that area... can you tell anything else about the aircraft?.... I could only repeat what I have already said here.

Well - I'm sorry - there were no contacts in the area at that time.

Were there any government or military flights scheduled? do you know?...

He repeats very slowly and more directly - there were no other contacts in that area at that time...

ok....

Thats all true - I wonder what it was...Penetrator?...it was very very big. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

CIA: "Mr. Heywoooood, we apologize for the red laser dot on your forehead. This conversation will terminate in 3, 2, ...."

civildog
01-21-2005, 06:43 PM
Once on Art Bell a woman was interviewed about her X-periences with alien abduction. She said she had been taken to some facility and implanted with transponders and injected with who-knows-what, and all the usual abduction stuff.

But she said that later she realised, through repeated contact with these particular aliens, that they were surgically altered government agents that were doing this for some nefarious NWO-type reason I can't remember. Probably something to do with what's under the Denver Airport I think.

What I do remember was asking myself this question: if she's correct about these agents, how the hell do you apply, let alone interview for a job like that?

LStarosta
01-21-2005, 06:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CivilDog:
Once on Art Bell a woman was interviewed about her X-periences with alien abduction. She said she had been taken to some facility and implanted with transponders and injected with who-knows-what, and all the usual abduction stuff.

But she said that later she realised, through repeated contact with these particular aliens, that they were surgically altered government agents that were doing this for some nefarious NWO-type reason I can't remember. Probably something to do with what's under the Denver Airport I think.

What I do remember was asking myself this question: if she's correct about these agents, how the hell do you apply, let alone interview for a job like that? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They aren't recruited...

http://www.starwars.jp/organization/image/clone_trooper.jpg

Clones, be sure.

heywooood
01-21-2005, 07:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heywooood:
Gates - I had no idea you were an x-filer....

I think the purpose of the thread is to wonder why there is only SETI to date, examining the universe for some contact when there have been reported world wide so many visual sightings and even a few of LaStarostas' favorite experiences http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif....

Why arent more cameras and 'scopes pointed upward in various remote and or populated areas...?

I will relate this and you can make of it whatever you want to..
I am a family man of 44 yrs of age - I have an 18y/o son and have been married for 20 yrs last Nov.

4 years ago - in July or August..during a patial lunar eclipse...thats where the earths shadow crosses the moon... My wife called to me to come outside and look. I looked....just then a departing flight from Lindberg field flew over - a 737 of Southwest livery....the time was 9:05 PM....just as I was tracking the plane with my Mk1 eyeball I saw another shape..all black...no lights on it at all...no nav lights , nothing - cross the airliners course at 90 deg. angle above him....I cant say how high it was or how large it was...it was dark, and it was FAST.

How Fast?....it crossed the sky from directly overhead to the horizon in 3 seconds...maybe 4 seconds.

I dont know if it was silent because the residual noise of the 737 was still occuring..hell it was still well above the horizon on its course. But as I focused on the wedge - I call it that because thats what it was...I strained to hear it and there was nothing but the Pratts quiet whine from the airliner..it had those newer hi-bipass turbofans on it that have made my life and my property values so much better...

So this black wedge went over in seconds...I called Lindberg tower to see if they had seen it..this was before 911 but lights out airplanes should never occur especially near a commercial airport...

The supervisor at Lindberg asks me what time
9:05 pm -I rushed in the house and looked at the clock - then called info to get the number to Lindberg... he says they didnt paint it - not on radar...how high - how fast? I told him what I saw - he checked around the room - I heard him do it....no one painted it.

I hung up and called TRACON... they track all aircraft once their respective towers release them...TRACON guy asks to state what I saw as precisely as I can remember... he says "any idea how high it was?" I guessed anywhere from 5-7000 feet....any higher and this Wedge would have to be several city blocks long. period.
I asked him if anybody saw it or if any other flights in the area reported anything - he says he will call me back and asks how to reach me....I confirm his name and ID and tell him.

We hang up and I have the hair on the back of my neck standing straight up...

My wife did not see it...we were standing 3 feet apart - but because I was looking at the airliner - I saw the Wedge - and by the time I pointed and said "HEY" - it was gone. FAST FAST FAST.

10 min later my phone rings- MR Heywooood? ..
yes - this guy is a different guy...sounds in the background are different and more distant sounding...I'm sorry to say we have no confirmed aircraft flying in the manner you described in that area... can you tell anything else about the aircraft?.... I could only repeat what I have already said here.

Well - I'm sorry - there were no contacts in the area at that time.

Were there any government or military flights scheduled? do you know?...

He repeats very slowly and more directly - there were no other contacts in that area at that time...

ok....

Thats all true - I wonder what it was...Penetrator?...it was very very big. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


i just wanted to correct the estimated altitude - I originally wrote 5-7000 miles - I meant 5-7000 feet...that was a guesstimate.

Also - just so there is no confusion...Penetrator is what cia calls the newest version of the old SR71 Blackbird...not Lstarostas version of 'penetrator'... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

I did not mean to copy/quote that whole posting here - only to fix that little typo..sorry.

One more reason as to why you dont hear more about these encounters from 'intelligent' or more 'professional' type people is because of the sarcasm and ridicule...I have told only my own family members about this before and never mentioned it on any other forum or article.

But since we are here, and this subject came up...and you can see I was reluctant even in this annonymous place to talk about it.

Friendly_flyer
01-22-2005, 04:19 AM
Oooo, chills down my spine...

Now, if the thing you saw (I assume you are not just yanking our collective chain here), must have been supersonic by far, right? And no sound? Then it must have been really high up.

What made you sure it was flying so high up? Did you actually see it pass behind the vapour trail from the passenger plane? When crossing the sky in 2-3 seconds, it would be hard to judge. Could it had been something flying lower, just at a very regular speed, making it appearing to be something larger flying higher? At night, judging height can be very hard.

heywooood
01-22-2005, 10:15 AM
friendly flier -

Yes - supersonic by far....

the airliner was a 737 just taking off - I am 5 miles from runway 27 at Lindberg and in normal onshore wind conditions, the planes takeoff and pass just east of my house at about 1500 - 2500 ft alt just after flaps and gear retracted and throttled back to normal climb out attitude....
So there was no vapor trail from either the airliner or the Wedge.

I can only assume scale because I only had a few seconds to assess it -(if only it had been in daylight)... the Wedge, if I have to guess alt and speed, and assuming that it was the same relative size as the 737... I guess alt. at between 5-7000 ft and speed incredible - breathtaking - not to be believed - I dont know what mach 1 looks like so I wont guess a mach number. But if you made me guess - I would say - depending on my guess being accurate as to relative size and altitude?.... mach 8 ? mach 10?....

Point directly over your head....extend your arm and point strait up....now count three seconds as you bring your arm down to 90deg. right angle to your body....that is how fast this object crossed that quarter of the sky over my head.

Again - if this object were higher than I guessed it to be...and it could have been - there was a small patch of coastal cloud residue that it passed over just as it intersected the airliners course... probably at 2000 - 3000 ft the airliner was just under it and the Wedge was well above that. But if was higher - than it was very big.

And when I say Wedge shaped - thats exactly what I mean - I could not, for the brief moment I had, discern any wing structure at all... this was a wedge - like one of those door stoppers - and I had almost a three quarter/bottom view, as it was not directly overhead but slightly forward from my position.
It was flat sided and smooth like black obsidian - not shiny/reflective but eggshell black....it travelled from my left to right - heading slightly south of due west on a straight line....and I will never get that image out of my mind.

If it was a tactical 'domestic' aircraft - why would it be flown so close to a commercial airstrip at that speed - way to risky to the public safety.

I just wonder if there isnt an air traffic controller or an airplane pilot or navigator that saw it that night too - but didn't want to be scrutinized or canned outright for saying so. There is way too much stygma applied to people that admit to seeing 'unusual' flying machines.

I am not making this up, but this is the internet so people will decide for themselves about that. I will only say that I saw what I saw and leave it at that.

let me just add that even if i had had a camera ready - up to my face even...there is no way I could have captured it....with a video camera?...if I was already taping the airliner - I might have captured it but with its speed and the night sky...it would look like all those other x-file 'nutjob' video clips...

sunflower1
01-22-2005, 06:51 PM
"I think our dispute is driven mainly by a cultural US/non-US difference. While UFO's appear to be a topic that fuels a lot of emotions in the US, the more laid-back parts of the world do not care that much. When we cut right down to the bone, we do not know anything. At least where I come from, the general attitude (even in the scientific community) is to treat the question accordingly. A common sentiment might run: It is most likely life out there, there might be civilisations and it might not be. As long as UFOs fail to land in front of the Parliament to greet our PM, it doesn't really matter much."

Many nations have some sort of cross to bear and enthusiasm is the US's, in my opinion, as a citizen and student. Its only been a couple hundred years since a general declined to be king and we're still jazzed about it. Enthusiam, in general, for everything, was sort of what the renaissance and Enlightment were made of and our polity was made from, in many ways, this enthusiasm. As an idea, we lived in books before we lived as a nation. Its got its own set of "occupational hazards." LaFayette is the obvious classic observer of all this. He's still relevent.

At least we didn't give birth to Descartes and Pascal within a generation and never recover from the trauma of owning the irreconcilable.

How can the references to Eric Cartman be missed for 5 pages??? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I'll one-up you Heywood, I watch South Park!

Thanks for sharing that Heywood. I have a story that'll help you feel a bit less off the wall, perhaps. My best buddy is an amatuer astronomer and builds instrumentation for high altitude atmosphere reasearch and then dons a space suit to monitor it in use.

He was peering through his telescope one night and an enormous round, totally black shape made itself apparent by blocking out the stars. At work the next day he approached a scientist very near the top of the organization and described what he'd seen. The guy communicated to the effect of, "yeah, you stumbled onto something that exists, but doesn't."

NorrisMcWhirter
01-22-2005, 07:02 PM
Hi,

I modified my SETI screensaver (http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/) so that posts in this forum are piped into it in real time.

Interestingly, after 2.231x10^3 years of CPU time, it hasn't found any evidence of intelligence. It did, however, accidentally intercept a transmission about someone having "piles the size of grapefruits" after what appeared to be an **** inspection to a point within a nearby binary star system. Odd.


Cheers,
Norris

heywooood
01-22-2005, 07:24 PM
exactly, sunflower..."something that exists, but doesn't"

and there is a cultural aspect to this whole issue which, in the US at least, seems tied to theology.... 'cross to bear' is right.

And yeah - until everyone sees these things - no one sees them, thats just the nature of monumental shifts in the human condition.
..some people still dont believe the holocaust happened ...and some people still don't know that in the US - far more Native Americans where annihilated than that.
How can this happen?...that people don't believe it?...Because words on a blackboard carry no weight, we have to see it for ourselves and experience it personally for it to mean anything. And thats why it is so irrelevant - there are far more important things to be concerned about than what I saw or didn't see....I just wish someone else had seen it that night...just like your friend probably does too. Because it was awesome.

sunflower1
01-22-2005, 07:31 PM
People still believe that OPEC was responsible for rising oil prices. Intelligent people. Richard Nixon will probably never stop laughing about that.

heywooood
01-22-2005, 07:42 PM
wait until we need fresh water as much as we 'need' oil...

ah well, theres always Gatorade....

which leads us back to lstarostas experience...

is it in you? (http://www.gatorade.com/#)...heheheh I'll bet those rectal probin' alien bastages get a kick out of that ad every time it airs..hehehe

LStarosta
01-22-2005, 09:41 PM
I resent you poking fun at my sincere witness statement.

Also, 2 weeks ago, I woke up with stitches right above my butt crack. I do not know how they got there. I assume it's an alien implant, and not that surgical removal of bone fragments left over from my broken tail bone.

sunflower1
01-23-2005, 06:55 AM
When I broke my tailbone somebody told me that they do that, take 'em out, so I didn't go to the doctor. Fixed that problem right up.

heywooood
01-23-2005, 10:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
I resent you poking fun at my sincere witness statement.

Also, 2 weeks ago, I woke up with stitches right above my butt crack. I do not know how they got there. I assume it's an alien implant, and not that surgical removal of bone fragments left over from my broken tail bone. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol...."poking fun"....Freud is in the details.

sorry to bump this ol' thread but that one was too ripe to pass on..