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Haukeye1
11-14-2004, 03:02 PM
According to all accounts I've read the P47 and Corsair had superb roll rates, equal to or better than the FW190 series. Why is that not the case with both AEP and PF???? I'm really enjoying PF so far, I'm just stumped that such a basic component as roll rate could be overlooked in what is otherwise a fine sim. Sorry for the rant, it's just knaws on me.

Haukeye

Haukeye1
11-14-2004, 03:02 PM
According to all accounts I've read the P47 and Corsair had superb roll rates, equal to or better than the FW190 series. Why is that not the case with both AEP and PF???? I'm really enjoying PF so far, I'm just stumped that such a basic component as roll rate could be overlooked in what is otherwise a fine sim. Sorry for the rant, it's just knaws on me.

Haukeye

VVS-Manuc
11-14-2004, 03:19 PM
Please explain "superb" roll rate. How much deg/sec ?

Waldo.Pepper
11-14-2004, 03:23 PM
and at what speed and altitude, and In what fuel state please.

heywooood
11-14-2004, 03:26 PM
and are these sourdough rolls or french?...

please, please, - we need way more information here....

personally - I love to 'knaw' on sourdough rolls, be sure.

Haukeye1
11-14-2004, 03:51 PM
I figured it was common knowledge. I'll see if I can dig up some stats for you.

Haukeye

Haukeye1
11-14-2004, 04:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VVS-Manuc:
Please explain "superb" roll rate. How much deg/sec ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me explain "superb" concerning roll rates, IMO, anyways. The FW190 had a superb roll rate, as did the P-47 and Corsair. The P-51 Mustang had a good roll rate, as did the 109. The Spitfire not so good, same with the Zero.
I did a lot of beta testing years ago for a WWII flight sim, am trying to come up with the stats I accumulated, will get back to you.
Thanks for the reply.

Haukeye

LuftKuhMist
11-14-2004, 04:13 PM
P47 rolling as good as 190... sure... yeah... methanol is good to drink also.

VMF-214_HaVoK
11-14-2004, 06:45 PM
Corsair could roll on par with the 190 be sure. Rather which one is correct in game is the question. The FW with out doubt has a very arcade feel to its roll. The ability to switch direction of the roll from one side the other and do that ever so annoying fish flop seems highly unlikely.
=S=

SkyChimp
11-14-2004, 08:08 PM
Up to moderately high speeds, nothing, but nothing, outrolled the Fw. Only at high and very high speeds did allied planes surpass it. When something speaks of, like that Fw vs. Corsair report, equal roll rates, don't take it to heart. Maybe at certain high speeds. Otherwise, the Fw was faster than anything.

prb17
11-14-2004, 09:53 PM
SkyChimP: €œUp to moderately high speeds, nothing, but nothing, outrolled the Fw. Only at high and very high speeds did allied planes surpass it. When something speaks of, like that Fw vs. Corsair report, equal roll rates, don't take it to heart. Maybe at certain high speeds. Otherwise, the Fw was faster than anything.€

Well then, some planes, and at some speeds, and at some altitudes, could out roll the FW-190. How many planes? What about the P-38? No way, no altitude, no speed, I suspect you will say.

Not according to Arthur W. Heilen (See Martin Caidin€s €œFork Tailed Devil€).

Speaking of the P-38L:

€œNothing, to these pilots, after the hard winter of 1943-44 could be more beautiful than a P-38L outrolling and tailgating a German fighter straight down, following a spin or a split-s or whatever gyration a startled, panicked and doomed German might attempt to initiate. You just couldn€t get away from the P-38L. Whatever the German could do, the American in the P-38L could do better.€

Hmmm.

Paul.

LuftKuhMist
11-14-2004, 09:54 PM
Chimp's right.

prb17
11-14-2004, 10:02 PM
Well, I guess that settles that. That was persuasive! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Athosd
11-14-2004, 10:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by prb17:
....Whatever the German could do, the American in the P-38L could do better.€

Hmmm.

Paul. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi prb17 - that's really a very subjective quote - and no mention of the Fw190 specifically. There are also quotes from allied pilots who didn't like the 38 for various reasons.
I've seen comments from P47 and P51 drivers that attributed their mounts with almost paranormal powers (their opinion of the 38 would likely differ from the Arthur Heilen's). However that is not unexpected given that their lives depended on these machines - and they survived when their enemies often did not.

Reminds me a little of a survey RAF bomber command undertook during the night raiding campaign. They wanted more information on how the German night fighters attacked - and the majority of returned crews reported attacks from above. This was duly noted as being part of enemy doctrine....
For obvious reasons the majority of those attacked from below did not participate in the survey.

Salute

Athos

VFA-195 Snacky
11-14-2004, 10:41 PM
Boosted Ailerons my man, but sadly the P38 is forgotten in many of these patches. Do I need to mention the Torque? didnt think so.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by prb17:
SkyChimP: €œUp to moderately high speeds, nothing, but nothing, outrolled the Fw. Only at high and very high speeds did allied planes surpass it. When something speaks of, like that Fw vs. Corsair report, equal roll rates, don't take it to heart. Maybe at certain high speeds. Otherwise, the Fw was faster than anything.€

Well then, some planes, and at some speeds, and at some altitudes, could out roll the FW-190. How many planes? What about the P-38? No way, no altitude, no speed, I suspect you will say.

Not according to Arthur W. Heilen (See Martin Caidin€s €œFork Tailed Devil€).

Speaking of the P-38L:

€œNothing, to these pilots, after the hard winter of 1943-44 could be more beautiful than a P-38L outrolling and tailgating a German fighter straight down, following a spin or a split-s or whatever gyration a startled, panicked and doomed German might attempt to initiate. You just couldn€t get away from the P-38L. Whatever the German could do, the American in the P-38L could do better.€

Hmmm.

Paul. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

VFA-195 Snacky
11-14-2004, 10:43 PM
Well since we are throwing pilot accounts out there, here ya go.

"It was a marveleous aircraft! It was the best aircraft I flew in the war by far. I never flew the P-51, its been one of my life regrets, but I flew just about everything else there was. I liked the P-38s rate of climb, its speed, the way it handled, and its firepower directly out the nose. The P-38 would turn with almost anything, in fact it would out turn the P-47, out climb it, and out maneuver it. The P-38 was one of the great aircraft of WWII."...Charles MacDonald, P-38 Ace

"On my first confrontation with the P-38, I was astonished to find an American aircraft that could outrun, outclimb, and outdive our Zero which we thought was the most superior fighter plane in the world. The Lightning's great speed, its sensational high altitude performance, and especially its ability to dive and climb much faster than the Zero presented insuperable problems for our fliers. The P-38 pilots, flying at great height, chose when and where they wanted to fight with disastrous results for our own men. The P-38 boded ill for the future and destroyed the morale of the Zero fighter Pilot."...Saburo Sakai, Japanese Ace


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Athosd:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by prb17:
....Whatever the German could do, the American in the P-38L could do better.€

Hmmm.

Paul. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi prb17 - that's really a very subjective quote - and no mention of the Fw190 specifically. There are also quotes from allied pilots who didn't like the 38 for various reasons.
I've seen comments from P47 and P51 drivers that attributed their mounts with almost paranormal powers (their opinion of the 38 would likely differ from the Arthur Heilen's). However that is not unexpected given that their lives depended on these machines - and they survived when their enemies often did not.

Reminds me a little of a survey RAF bomber command undertook during the night raiding campaign. They wanted more information on how the German night fighters attacked - and the majority of returned crews reported attacks from above. This was duly noted as being part of enemy doctrine....
For obvious reasons the majority of those attacked from below did not participate in the survey.

Salute

Athos <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

prb17
11-14-2004, 10:44 PM
Hi Athos,

Yes, it is subjective. But I think the point of the discussion between Caidin and Heilen was the huge difference between the P-38E/F/G/H and the J-25 and L models. The latter had hydraulic assisted ailerons, the only allied fighter to be so equipped, which greatly increased the roll-rate at all altitudes and airspeeds, had better engine cooling, better superchargers (i.e. didn€t blow up), had adequate cockpit heat, had diver recovery flaps, which meant the pilot could roll and dive away without breaking apart. In short, the J-25 and beyond was a completely different bird than the E/F/G/H model Lightning.

Paul.

prb17
11-14-2004, 10:48 PM
You got it VFA-195Snacky. Hydraulic roll assist. I think she (the Lightning) was the only WWII fighter to be so equipped. Paul

SkyChimp
11-14-2004, 11:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by prb17:

Well then, some planes, and at some speeds, and at some altitudes, could out roll the FW-190. How many planes? What about the P-38? No way, no altitude, no speed, I suspect you will say.

Not according to Arthur W. Heilen (See Martin Caidin€s €œFork Tailed Devil€).

Speaking of the P-38L:

€œNothing, to these pilots, after the hard winter of 1943-44 could be more beautiful than a P-38L outrolling and tailgating a German fighter straight down, following a spin or a split-s or whatever gyration a startled, panicked and doomed German might attempt to initiate. You just couldn€t get away from the P-38L. Whatever the German could do, the American in the P-38L could do better.€

Hmmm.

Paul. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hmmmmm, indeed.

Whenever someone says something like "Whatever the German could do, the American in the P-38L could do better," I gotta think "hmmmmm," too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif There's one thing about blanket statements - they are almost always wrong.

At practical combat speeds, the P-38J/L with boosted ailerons could not outroll the Fw-190. Nothing could. It's that simple.

Peak roll rate for the Fw-190A was a little over 160 degrees per second at about 255mph IAS.
At 350mph IAS it was still over 90 degrees per second.

The P-38J/L with boosted ailerons rolled at around 80 degrees per second at the same 255mph IAS. It peaked at around 95 degrees per second at around 365 mph IAS. (assuming my math is right - had to convert from TAS to IAS)

At any rate, you can see, true airspeeds would have had to have been well over 400 mph before the P-38J/L surpassed the Fw-190 in roll. That may have happened in dives. It couldn't have happened in level flight since neither had a top speed that high.

The P-38 rolled very well at very high speeds. At practical fighting speeds, it waas outclassed by the Fw.

TheGozr
11-15-2004, 01:57 AM
"Equal to or better than the FW190 "

SHure... Right! i also heard that the corsair was faster than jets... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

OldMan____
11-15-2004, 03:19 AM
Just forget pilot quotes and look for data. A statment that says that a plane could do anything better than any other enemy plane totally diqualifies the author for ANY useful information in my opinion.

Not even a F14 Tomcat can o everything better than all WW2 plane!!

DIRTY-MAC
11-15-2004, 03:34 AM
I think late Tempests Vs had some kind of boosted ailerons to
Ice fire?

SlickStick
11-15-2004, 08:43 AM
RAF74_Buzzsaw posted a great roll rate chart many months ago and it showed the FW on top, but the clipped-wing Spitfire was not far behind.

I would like to see that chart posted again, as I do not remember if a Corsair was listed.

SlickStick
11-15-2004, 09:48 AM
And speaking of roll rates, how the heck can those early-war IL2s have such phenomenal roll rate?!?! They out roll the P47 and several other aircraft in this game. Those IL2 wings are huge and some of the early-ones roll like FWs! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Texas LongHorn
11-15-2004, 10:54 AM
SlickStick is right. My Uncle Syd flew the 47, Hellcat, dabbled in the 38, and flew captured Zero's and 190's at Pax River. Here is his quote; "Nothing rolls like the 190." In his opinion the mighty FW has the fastest roll rate of ANY major WWII fighter. I have no reason to doubt his assesment. All the best, LongHorn

Kurfurst__
11-15-2004, 11:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DIRTY-MAC:
I think late Tempests Vs had some kind of boosted ailerons to
Ice fire? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IIRC most Tempests came with spring tabs for the ailerons. These helped the pilot to overcome the control forces at high speeds, but its aint a magic wand that results supreme roll rate.. With mechanically or hydraulically boosted ailerons the roll advantage comes at high speeds, which is IMHO not so important for manouvering fights, unless coming out of dives etc. And most of these aircraft got these boosted ailerons because previously control forces were too large for the pilot..

Fliger747
11-15-2004, 11:57 AM
Boon Guyton (Vought test Pilot) states the XF4U-1 rolled really well, something over 180 deg per second. I get about 200 plus deg per second out of the 1-D at 220 knots near sea level. Some (real) comparison data is posed in another thread here.

Roll rate is an important factor in 'instantaneous' manuverability. The ability to reverse this roll rate and the rate at which you can do so is important as well. This was the main advantage which the F86 Saber had over the Mig 15, hydraulicly boosted controls in this case.

k5054
11-15-2004, 12:03 PM
Kurfurst, don't I remember you were on the other side of that during the great flettner tab debate?

The Tempest did indeed get a great benefit in roll rate from its tabs, but at very high speeds.
In a comparison published in Aeroplane in 1946, the Tempest had best roll rate over 400mph IAS, the FW having led the chart easily up to that speed. The temp was only ordinary at lower speeds, behind P-47, Spit 21, and FW at 300-400, and behind also Spit 14, P-51 and 109 at 200-300.

SkyChimp
11-15-2004, 01:26 PM
Ah, Dr. Fettner and his famous TAB. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

faustnik
11-15-2004, 01:41 PM
Here's the chart that I colorized for easier viewing:

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/RollChartClr2.jpg

SkyChimp
11-15-2004, 03:32 PM
Here's the P-38 with boosted ailerons roll chart. It's in True Air Speed so a conversion to IAS seems in order. Anyone game?

http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/boostroll.jpg

SlickStick
11-15-2004, 04:05 PM
Thanks for posting that chart, faustnik.

Look at the clipped-wing Spitfire. She's up there. I'd like to see how the Ki-84 stacks up on that chart. It's got incredible roll as well.

Unfortunately, I'm still a PF wanna-buy, so I can't comment on the Corsair's roll as of yet. I do know the IL2s in AEP do roll quite fast. I've often wondered about them.

VW-IceFire
11-15-2004, 04:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DIRTY-MAC:
I think late Tempests Vs had some kind of boosted ailerons to
Ice fire? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Spring tab ailerons...experimentally fitted to an unknown number of Tempests. It wasn't a production standard apparently...I have yet to see a photo of a Tempest equipped with spring tabs...even the Tempest II's.