PDA

View Full Version : Ideas for Shugoki. Feel free to contribute



S.ArthurDayne
03-17-2018, 04:28 PM
Shugoki : remove that he takes double dmg when u break his armor , atleast in 4v4 modes cause he is suppose to be this massive fat tank that hits hard but is the easiest to kill if u gank him, whit the amount of unblockables and bashes u break his armor supper easy then he takes 110 dmg from a high gear stats highlander which is apsurd , and give him an opener ( belly slam would fit nice , nothing to fast but grants either good damage or average dmg + stamina drain) and a couple of more combos , finishers or new moves cant hurt , but stick to his character - fat slow but hits hard .

bob333e
03-17-2018, 04:42 PM
- Tone down the pushback distance on his headbutt to allow for more combos or punishes
- His headbutt should not render him OOS if he initiates the headbutt while at very low stamina
- Remove the guaranteed GB when he whiffs his fully charged heavy
- Slightly increase sprinting speed
- Reduce stamina usage on his zone
- Second swing of his zone must be an unblockable
- His headbutt should also be a parry punish mechanic, i.e. able to headbutt after a parry
- Turn his golf swing on GB into a zone input rather than heavy attack input, and give him a normal heavy attack input on GB after which he can then headbutt as well
- Instead of having his static hyperarmor randomly popping up by itself, it should pop up only whenever he initiates an attack
- If he whiffs Demon Embrace at critical health it should kill him when the animation ends if he hasn't already been hit by an opponent (a.k.a. missing Demon Embrace at critical health is guaranteed death, because in trade this can one-shot, so it's a fair trade)
- Increase his HP to 180 and his stamina to 140

UbiJurassic
03-17-2018, 06:36 PM
Thanks for sharing the feedback guys! I'd love to hear more players input on Shugoki.

Shugo is currently in line, along with the rest of the original hero roster, to receive either a rework or a major balance update to bring them up to speed with the rest of the hero roster. We don't have details on it or a date for when players can expect to see his changes, but we'll be sure to communicate that when those details become available.

Sneakly20
03-17-2018, 07:37 PM
- Tone down the pushback distance on his headbutt to allow for more combos or punishes
- His headbutt should not render him OOS if he initiates the headbutt while at very low stamina
- Remove the guaranteed GB when he whiffs his fully charged heavy
- Slightly increase sprinting speed
- Reduce stamina usage on his zone
- Second swing of his zone must be an unblockable
- His headbutt should also be a parry punish mechanic, i.e. able to headbutt after a parry
- Turn his golf swing on GB into a zone input rather than heavy attack input, and give him a normal heavy attack input on GB after which he can then headbutt as well
- Instead of having his static hyperarmor randomly popping up by itself, it should pop up only whenever he initiates an attack
- If he whiffs Demon Embrace at critical health it should kill him when the animation ends if he hasn't already been hit by an opponent (a.k.a. missing Demon Embrace at critical health is guaranteed death, because in trade this can one-shot, so it's a fair trade)
- Increase his HP to 180 and his stamina to 140

Unfortunately Iím going to have to disagree with a few points here. First being the gb on charges heavy whiff. I think a good player will know when and when not to use the charged heavy. If he whiffs this move, which granted hurts a lot, I fully expect to punish him for it. The gb heavy is fine. The armor does not randomly pop up but if they take away the extra damage received once itís down I can support that. But hyper armor on ever offensive move? We already have berserker. His second heavy on zone should not be unblockable. There is already so much of those going around. We donít need more.

bob333e
03-17-2018, 08:10 PM
Unfortunately I’m going to have to disagree with a few points here. First being the gb on charges heavy whiff. I think a good player will know when and when not to use the charged heavy. If he whiffs this move, which granted hurts a lot, I fully expect to punish him for it. The gb heavy is fine. The armor does not randomly pop up but if they take away the extra damage received once it’s down I can support that. But hyper armor on ever offensive move? We already have berserker. His second heavy on zone should not be unblockable. There is already so much of those going around. We don’t need more.

Thanks for your input, I'm going to address each individual point you've brought up and why I came up with them.

- Granted his fully charged heavy deals good damage when it lands, but it's also extremely easy to avoid, and he's also not very mobile. You can already punish him with a free heavy (or charged heavy) if he whiffs that move. The problem with guaranteed GB is that GB can lead to a lot of free damage simply for Shugoki whiffing one move and being locked in recovery. Of course it remains up to debate, I gave that suggestion without considering the unfavorable matchups against Shugoki (such as mirror match) so obviously further inputs can help pinpoint better whether this is optimal for him or not. I myself remains unsure about this particular point as well.

- Whenever I play Shugoki, the hyperarmor sometimes does not come up when I attack after it gets taken down, and I end up not being able to even land my lights, and any hit can stagger me. Provided Shugoki has very limited mobility, getting out of stagger is daunting. That's why I suggested to have his hyperarmor activate only on attacks. Though I agree, removing the extra damage received when he's out of HA is a much better deal. But comparing him to Zerk falls flat because he in no way can chain attacks like Zerk. The current HA on Zerk is extremely cheap, I agree.

- Having the second swing of his zone be an unblockable gives it a mind game use like Aramusha's zone, as well as gives Shugoki another feint game other than his charged heavy. The thing about his zone is that he can cover good ground with it, compared to his charged heavy, so by having the second swing unblockable he can apply better pressure, especially against retreating opponents (keeping in mind Shugoki has very bad mobility).

I only recall Aramusha's zone being an unblockable on the second swing; I don't recall any other. Remember we're talking zone attacks.

These are but mere thoughts for Shugoki. Nothing too refined and nothing finalized. At the end of the day he needs better flexibility, better mobility, and a little more tankiness. He doesn't need more damage or more moves or 400ms lights or bashes from neutral. I'd love to hear further inputs from others concerning him.

I understand your point about unblockables and the unblockable spam trend. It's because of how piss-poor the 4v4 modes are designed and they encourage ganking. Ganking in this game will forever be problematic because this combat system has been primarily designed for 1v1 encounters, 2v1 at most. Not 3v1s and 4v1s. And Revenge is half-useless when it's about survival, because the shield goes down rather quickly and it doesn't negate bashes from neutral, nor does it negate unblockable grabs/shoves while activating it.
Shugoki in 4v4s can just DE behind your back and allow his teammates to land free hits on you throughout the entire animation, then still heal off of you. Even if Shugo gets an unblockable second swing on his zone, why would they ever resort to the zone. Especially that the zone consumes more stamina and deals less damage than DE. And the zone is still parryable, whereas DE isn't.

It's more about making him a better fighter overall, than just giving him the "Shaman/Zerk treatment" which honestly became the super-cancerous trend in the reworks.

Kryltic
03-17-2018, 08:50 PM
I've said this in another thread but here's my suggestions:

Remove the increased damage once his uninterruptable stance is consumed. Its not needed.

Give him a light-light chain and a heavy-light. All attack chains can be ended with a headbutt. Headbutts don't use up any stamina. Also they can knock people off ledges if close enough.

Demons Embrace also restores stamina, the amount changes in the same manner as the health. Also give it a slight delay before it can be used again to avoid any abuse.

A sprint speed increase. Perhaps the boost only lasts for a few seconds. Just to stop enemies from been able to easily flee when in danger (this is more a wishlist item). If not just a small boost in sprint speed.

I like the idea of the second hit on his zone to be unblockable. I'll second that as an idea that could work well.

Allow his charge of the oni to knock enemies down when they are OOS or if the Shugoki has revenge activated.

When he GBs an opponent, give him a light option where he hits his opponent with the hilt of his weapon in the stomach 'winding' them and doing light health and normal stamina damage plus it stuns. This allows him to have options other than smacking them away with a heavy for them to recover or just a light and headbutt.

BTTrinity
03-17-2018, 10:46 PM
(This is coming from someone who doesnt play him, at all)

Definitely remove increased damage once his hyper-armor is gone, Shugoki can melt so easily

I like the idea for demons embrace restoring stamina as well.

Make oni charge knock down OOS opponents?

Kryltic
03-17-2018, 10:58 PM
OOS = out of stamina, it gives him a way to punish people a little more if they try to flee or in group fights all clump together.

bob333e
03-17-2018, 11:05 PM
OOS = out of stamina, it gives him a way to punish people a little more if they try to flee or in group fights all clump together.

Pretty sure he meant he wasn't sure what Oni Charge is :P

@BTTrinity Oni Charge is when you dash like supershrek for a short burst and you bump anything standing in your way. It pushes back and staggers opponents, can ledge if near one.

I'll agree Oni Charge needs to knock down OOS opponents if hit by it.

BTTrinity
03-17-2018, 11:08 PM
Pretty sure he meant he wasn't sure what Oni Charge is :P

@BTTrinity Oni Charge is when you dash like supershrek for a short burst and you bump anything standing in your way. It pushes back and staggers opponents, can ledge if near one.

Lol I didnt mean to put the question mark, I meant to just list it as a suggestion.

For some reason I didnt see Kryltic say the same thing the first time I read his post, but yes I agree with the suggestion 100%

Kryltic
03-17-2018, 11:11 PM
Well that would explain it haha XD

Weird how I automatically assumed you knew what charge of the oni was but not OOS haha

Baggin_
03-18-2018, 06:14 PM
- Tone down the pushback distance on his headbutt to allow for more combos or punishes
- His headbutt should not render him OOS if he initiates the headbutt while at very low stamina
- Remove the guaranteed GB when he whiffs his fully charged heavy
- Slightly increase sprinting speed
- Reduce stamina usage on his zone
- Second swing of his zone must be an unblockable
- His headbutt should also be a parry punish mechanic, i.e. able to headbutt after a parry
- Turn his golf swing on GB into a zone input rather than heavy attack input, and give him a normal heavy attack input on GB after which he can then headbutt as well
- Instead of having his static hyperarmor randomly popping up by itself, it should pop up only whenever he initiates an attack
- If he whiffs Demon Embrace at critical health it should kill him when the animation ends if he hasn't already been hit by an opponent (a.k.a. missing Demon Embrace at critical health is guaranteed death, because in trade this can one-shot, so it's a fair trade)
- Increase his HP to 180 and his stamina to 140

I agree with most of this. I do have a couple changes and add ons though.
Instead of the second swing on the zone being unblockable, he should have the option charge his second heavy in any combo. He should be vulnerable when he misses his charged heavy, but if he does one to someone on the ground they should not be able to stand right up and get a free gb on him.
His hyper armor should stay how it is.
Add lite, lite, heavy. heavy, lite, heavy. Lite, heavy, lite. combos. (Any that connect can lead to headbutt).

Sneakly20
03-18-2018, 07:50 PM
Pretty sure he meant he wasn't sure what Oni Charge is :P

@BTTrinity Oni Charge is when you dash like supershrek for a short burst and you bump anything standing in your way. It pushes back and staggers opponents, can ledge if near one.

I'll agree Oni Charge needs to knock down OOS opponents if hit by it.

I heavily disagree. It makes sense in a group fight sure. But it creates another OOS spam punish. Something that can be spammed.

Kryltic
03-18-2018, 08:47 PM
I heavily disagree. It makes sense in a group fight sure. But it creates another OOS spam punish. Something that can be spammed.

Have you ever played as a Shugoki? You definitely can't spam Charge of the Oni. You would get one maybe two goes to try and knock them down before you are either OOS or they have recovered.

Kryltic
03-19-2018, 02:23 AM
Another thought, someone using gb shouldn't break uninterruptable stance, it should be ignored like anything else. Its an easy way to break it and inflict more damage to a Shugoki.

ArchDukeInstinct
03-19-2018, 05:52 AM
Another thought, someone using gb shouldn't break uninterruptable stance, it was should be ignored like anything else. Its an easy way to break it and inflict more damage to a Shugoki.

Great idea, then the only way to remove hyper armor is with a regular attack that the Shugoki can just gb on reaction.

Brologna_Xeno
03-19-2018, 06:50 AM
I wouldn't really miss the Oni-Sprint tbh, hasn't been a lot of fun since the follow-up was taken away. I only ledge with it when someone really deserves it.. Otherwise I prefer to ledge with Demon Ball or standard throw (like a gentleman).

but I'd like its stagger baked into the first hit of his zone, meaning essentially his zone's first hit being more a shove than a swing. But in that case the first hit of zone probably shouldn't do damage, just be Oni-Charge-esque dash.

And if new moves were added, something like Centurion's GB mixups (punches and the knee kick GB). Goki is le Sumo, like to see him use his hands more. Maybe that's peculiar.

If he had unique GBs to mix up from Heavy attack start-up, that in addition to the Demon Embrace mix-up that might be more interesting (one requiring dodge, the other being a dodge-punish). Demon Embrace mixup is a joke. A GB mixup from Heavy start-up could add some heft to that Embrace mix-up option as well. (kind of like how Kensei's <Nature's Wrath> has helped <helm splitter> somewhat)

mrmistark
03-20-2018, 02:23 AM
Well, screw it. As a previous Shugoki main and secondary I almost feel obligated to throw down my 2 cents. Keep in mind, this is to bring him up to the current cast and give him at least a few more options and mix ups like the rest of the cast, so here goes nothing:

1. As previously mentioned, the extra damage for not having his HA needs to go. If it is STILL not what the devs want to do, make his armor mode much like Shamans blood trance. Call it ďwinded stateĒ cause well, heís fat, and make his armored up state deal more damage and double strikes not take his HA away. Obviously though, damage reduction removal would do much better than the latter.

2. Remove one shot with Demonís Embrace and the damage upon a simple miss. The Gb punish on wiff is enough in my opinion once one shot is removed. Additionally I will 3rds the idea to regenerate stamina upon success.

3. I do enjoy the idea of zone second hit UB. As he sits, Shugoki is in a bad spot. He needs to be able to apply more pressure and his zone is pretty garbage in fights.

4. I would say, leave headbutt as is other than allowing it to wall splat. It gives good distance which honestly sometimes is needed.

5. Give him a bigger health pool and donít give him more stamina, but make costs cheaper.

6. Allow all heavies to be able to soft feint or follow up into a relatively quick belly bump that doesnít give any free damage (much like glads punch) but drains stamina and deals light damage. Unlike headbutt this option keeps the opponent close for follow ups. It can be canceled too but a follow up GB can still be countered.

7. Change GB option to be a simple heavy which will allow headbutt or belly bump follow ups.

8. Give him more chain options as stated previously.


These are the changes I would give him to make him better with more options while not making him broken.

Kryltic
03-20-2018, 12:30 PM
Great idea, then the only way to remove hyper armor is with a regular attack that the Shugoki can just gb on reaction.

Sorry I should clarify, I dont mean he should be immune to all GB attempts. Just the first one while his Stance is active. At the moment even if you CGB you lose your Uninterruptable Stance which seems silly.

Also the Shugoki can already GB when attacked while his stance is active so my suggestion doesn't change that.

Edit: Or at least make it so if the Shugoki CGB then his stance isn't consumed.

bob333e
03-20-2018, 06:50 PM
I like various of the other inputs on here, and I definitely like how this discussion is turning out. Upon revising on my previous list and considering some of the suggestions of others:

Headbutt:
- His headbutt should not render him OOS if he initiates the headbutt while at very low stamina.
- His headbutt can also be used as a parry punish mechanic (able to headbutt after any parry).
- His headbutt can wallsplat if close enough to a wall.
- His headbutt can ledge if close enough to one.

Zone Attack:
- Slightly reduce stamina usage on his zone.
- The second swing of his zone attack gets unblockable property.

Demon's Embrace:
- Remove OHK on Demon Embrace at critical health. If Shugo is at critical health, Demon Embrace hits its peak power at like 70-75dmg.
- Demon Embrace should restore stamina if it lands.
- Reduce HP penalty on missed Demon Embrace.
- Demon's Embrace should kill him when the animation ends if he's at critical health and it misses, if he hasn't already been hit by an opponent / friendly fire / feat.

Attacks and Combos:
- Remove the guaranteed GB on the fully charged heavy if it connects with an opponent who was on the ground.
- Add chain: light > light.
- Add chain: heavy > light.
- Add chain: heavy > light > heavy.
- Add chain: light > light > heavy.
- Add chain: light > heavy > light.
- Shugoki can connect a headbutt from any of the above chains

Static Uninterruptible Stance:
- He shouldn't take extra damage when his static HA is down, such as after eating two consecutive hits or after performing a CGB.

Charge Of The Oni:
- Charge Of The Oni should knock down an OOS opponent if it connects.
- Charge Of The Oni should knock down an opponent if it connects while Shugoki is in Revenge Mode.

Additional:
- Slightly increase sprinting speed.
- Increase his HP pool to 170.

Kryltic
03-20-2018, 07:25 PM
I personally like the fact Demon's Embrace can OHK but thats just me it seems.

The only thing I can fairly disagree with is missing a DE can kill him. I don't feel it should inflict any damage at all to him unless the tracking is improved slightly (especially that at the end when he actually goes to grab them). My reasoning is purely for 4vs4 modes where anyone can knock the target slightly and you miss even if the enemy was stunned etc.

Baggin_
03-20-2018, 07:27 PM
I like various of the other inputs on here, and I definitely like how this discussion is turning out. Upon revising on my previous list and considering some of the suggestions of others:

Headbutt:
- His headbutt should not render him OOS if he initiates the headbutt while at very low stamina.
- His headbutt can also be used as a parry punish mechanic (able to headbutt after any parry).
- His headbutt can wallsplat if close enough to a wall.
- His headbutt can ledge if close enough to one.

Zone Attack:
- Slightly reduce stamina usage on his zone.
- The second swing of his zone attack gets unblockable property.

Demon's Embrace:
- Remove OHK on Demon Embrace at critical health. If Shugo is at critical health, Demon Embrace hits its peak power at like 70-75dmg.
- Demon Embrace should restore stamina if it lands.
- Reduce HP penalty on missed Demon Embrace.
- Demon's Embrace should kill him when the animation ends if he's at critical health and it misses, if he hasn't already been hit by an opponent / friendly fire / feat.

Attacks and Combos:
- Remove the guaranteed GB on the fully charged heavy if it connects with an opponent who was on the ground.
- Add chain: light > light.
- Add chain: heavy > light.
- Add chain: heavy > light > heavy.
- Add chain: light > light > heavy.
- Add chain: light > heavy > light.
- Shugoki can connect a headbutt from any of the above chains

Static Uninterruptible Stance:
- He shouldn't take extra damage when his static HA is down, such as after eating two consecutive hits or after performing a CGB.

Charge Of The Oni:
- Charge Of The Oni should knock down an OOS opponent if it connects.
- Charge Of The Oni should knock down an opponent if it connects while Shugoki is in Revenge Mode.

Additional:
- Slightly increase sprinting speed.
- Increase his HP pool to 170.

Excellent post. I would add that in his chains, any of the heavies can be charged.

bob333e
03-20-2018, 07:38 PM
I personally like the fact Demon's Embrace can OHK but thats just me it seems.

The only thing I can fairly disagree with is missing a DE can kill him. I don't feel it should inflict any damage at all to him unless the tracking is improved slightly (especially that at the end when he actually goes to grab them). My reasoning is purely for 4vs4 modes where anyone can knock the target slightly and you miss even if the enemy was stunned etc.

Well to be fair, any OHK move, outside of ledging or environmental hazard, shouldn't exist in the game. You have a point, they could perhaps look into increasing the tracking if he's at critical health; to make dodging it a bit harder because dodging it means death for Shugoki.

And yeah, a lot of things tend to miss when someone else stuns your targeted opponent in 4v4s. It's not hero-centric, it's a jumbled mess of how animations generally interact with each other. This should be another topic on its own :P




Excellent post. I would add that in his chains, any of the heavies can be charged.

Thank you! with these changes, consider how many unblockables he now has:

- Headbutt
- Demon Embrace
- Second swing of zone
- Charge of the Oni
- Fully charged heavy

Effectively giving 5 unblockables on one hero, I think we're hitting the threshold, a greater number of unblockables per hero would render this hero overpowered. I would suggest, instead of charged heavies mid-combo, he can soft-feint from heavy to light. Though not sure how soft-feints can work on a single-wield character, seeing as the heroes that currently have soft-feints in-between attacks are all dual-wield (with the exception of Raider but that's a zone input so it's a bit different). Warden's SB into GB and Centurion's heavy into GB are different inputs as well because they're GB inputs, not attack inputs.

Baggin_
03-20-2018, 08:16 PM
The headbutt, while technically an unblockable can't be achived without a prerequisite (landing a hit). I don't think shugo needs soft feints (kensei is a single wield character with those btw). Honestly, I believe if we had to switch one of those unblockables out for a charged heavy mid combo I'd choose the second swing of the zone. I don't think it would fair him too well with the fact of having no soft feints he would still be pretty easy to parry. Allowing him to charge mid combo would allow him to change up the timing of his combos making him a bit less predictable when performing them.

bob333e
03-20-2018, 08:26 PM
The headbutt, while technically an unblockable can't be achived without a prerequisite (landing a hit). I don't think shugo needs soft feints (kensei is a single wield character with those btw). Honestly, I believe if we had to switch one of those unblockables out for a charged heavy mid combo I'd choose the second swing of the zone. I don't think it would fair him too well with the fact of having no soft feints he would still be pretty easy to parry. Allowing him to charge mid combo would allow him to change up the timing of his combos making him a bit less predictable when performing them.

Landing a hit, or parrying any attack, as per the changes suggested above.

But yeah, Shugo wouldn't fit in the theme of soft-feints.

The thing about the second zone swing being an unblockable is that it can apply better pressure and a better OOS game while also covering ground and catching up to an escaping opponent. And it's also something that cannot be directly abused.

However, should he be able to freely charge any heavy mid-combo, that'd make his heavies hella abusable and his feint game / OOS game unbeatable and over the top. I think, if we are to include the possibility to freely charge a heavy mid-combo, it should only be tied to one combo type. For instance, it can only be on the third hit, if both previous hits were lights (light > light > heavy). If the heavy was the first or second input during a combo, the second and/or third heavies cannot be charged in the combo. So if you want to charge the heavy and be able to cancel the charge any time, the heavy has to be preceded by two lights in the combo. That would still be fair imo.

Baggin_
03-20-2018, 08:36 PM
Landing a hit, or parrying any attack, as per the changes suggested above.

But yeah, Shugo wouldn't fit in the theme of soft-feints.

The thing about the second zone swing being an unblockable is that it can apply better pressure and a better OOS game while also covering ground and catching up to an escaping opponent. And it's also something that cannot be directly abused.

However, should he be able to freely charge any heavy mid-combo, that'd make his heavies hella abusable and his feint game / OOS game unbeatable and over the top. I think, if we are to include the possibility to freely charge a heavy mid-combo, it should only be tied to one combo type. For instance, it can only be on the third hit, if both previous hits were lights (light > light > heavy). If the heavy was the first or second input during a combo, the second and/or third heavies cannot be charged in the combo. So if you want to charge the heavy and be able to cancel the charge any time, the heavy has to be preceded by two lights in the combo. That would still be fair imo.

I could see that, but looking at the combo options you've supplied for us there's really not much to be abused. Heavy, lite, heavy for example would heave either the first heavy would just be charged or the second heavy after the lite would then either be charged or not.

Now for catching runners. I do see shugoki being the running catcher, people should be able to run and escape from him. I see him as the hard to take down tank that sits on the opponents point and is supposed to tank 4v1 ganks if need be until his team can come help. Catching the runners would be for other faster characters. That's just my opiniom though.

bob333e
03-20-2018, 08:54 PM
Now for catching runners. I do see shugoki being the running catcher, people should be able to run and escape from him. I see him as the hard to take down tank that sits on the opponents point and is supposed to tank 4v1 ganks if need be until his team can come help. Catching the runners would be for other faster characters. That's just my opiniom though.

In singular encounters, he's terrible at keeping pressure seeing as the headbutt propels your opponent backwards out of attack range, his running and movement speed are overall slow, and outside of his zone he cannot really catch a backdashing, escaping opponent, especially when his opponent is OOS after a headbutt. His zone is all he really has if he wants to catch up to his opponent while attacking.

Granted in 4v4s he's supposed to be tanky and hold defensive positions, but when he's in any singular encounter, anyone, especially assassins, can break free of any pressure he tries to apply. In essence you're punished for being big and slow.

Kryltic
03-20-2018, 09:03 PM
Well to be fair, any OHK move, outside of ledging or environmental hazard, shouldn't exist in the game. You have a point, they could perhaps look into increasing the tracking if he's at critical health; to make dodging it a bit harder because dodging it means death for Shugoki.

And yeah, a lot of things tend to miss when someone else stuns your targeted opponent in 4v4s. It's not hero-centric, it's a jumbled mess of how animations generally interact with each other. This should be another topic on its own :P


Its a case of a simple bump or knock can make him miss completely, if a Shugoki can kill himself from a missed DE this needs to change. No other character can have this happen.

The tracking can stay the same regardless of health but I just dont want to get killed because my team mate cant wait until I finishing giving the enemy a hug XD

Kryltic
03-20-2018, 09:05 PM
In singular encounters, he's terrible at keeping pressure seeing as the headbutt propels your opponent backwards out of attack range, his running and movement speed are overall slow, and outside of his zone he cannot really catch a backdashing, escaping opponent, especially when his opponent is OOS after a headbutt. His zone is all he really has if he wants to catch up to his opponent while attacking.

Granted in 4v4s he's supposed to be tanky and hold defensive positions, but when he's in any singular encounter, anyone, especially assassins, can break free of any pressure he tries to apply. In essence you're punished for being big and slow.

This, he needs some way to keep pressure on fleeing enemies.

bob333e
03-20-2018, 09:08 PM
Its a case of a simple bump or knock can make him miss completely, if a Shugoki can kill himself from a missed DE this needs to change. No other character can have this happen.

The tracking can stay the same regardless of health but I just dont want to get killed because my team mate cant wait until I finishing giving the enemy a hug XD

You're probably right, for this to change they'd have to modify a lot of animation interaction in-between a lot of heroes. Bah.

I agree then, better to not have DE kill him on miss at critical health.

I'll rewrite an updated post after our discussions.

bob333e
03-20-2018, 09:12 PM
Post Update #2

Headbutt:
- His headbutt should not render him OOS if he initiates the headbutt while at very low stamina.
- His headbutt can also be used as a parry punish mechanic (able to headbutt after any parry).
- His headbutt can wallsplat if close enough to a wall.
- His headbutt can ledge if close enough to one.

Zone Attack:
- Slightly reduce stamina usage on his zone.
- The second swing of his zone attack gets unblockable property. Can still be cancelled.

Demon's Embrace:
- Remove OHK on Demon Embrace at critical health. If Shugo is at critical health, Demon Embrace hits its peak power at like 70dmg.
- Demon Embrace should restore stamina if it lands.
- Slightly reduce HP penalty on missed Demon Embrace.

Attacks and Combos:
- Remove the guaranteed GB on the fully charged heavy if it connects with an opponent who was on the ground.
- Add chain: light > light.
- Add chain: heavy > light.
- Add chain: heavy > light > heavy. Can charge the heavies in this combo and can cancel their charges.
- Add chain: light > light > heavy. Can charge the heavies in this combo and can cancel their charges.
- Add chain: light > heavy > light.
- Shugoki can connect a headbutt from any of the above chains.

Static Uninterruptible Stance:
- He shouldn't take extra damage when his static HA is down, such as after eating two consecutive hits or after performing a CGB.

Charge Of The Oni:
- Charge Of The Oni should knock down an OOS opponent if it connects.
- Charge Of The Oni should knock down an opponent if it connects while Shugoki is in Revenge Mode.

Additional:
- Slightly increase sprinting speed.
- Increase his HP pool to 170.

ArchDukeInstinct
03-21-2018, 04:27 AM
Sorry I should clarify, I dont mean he should be immune to all GB attempts. Just the first one while his Stance is active. At the moment even if you CGB you lose your Uninterruptable Stance which seems silly.

Also the Shugoki can already GB when attacked while his stance is active so my suggestion doesn't change that.

Edit: Or at least make it so if the Shugoki CGB then his stance isn't consumed.

That's my problem with it though, classes without fast enough attacks will be hosed if they can't break hyper armor with a guard break attempt successful or not. At that point you'd have to turtle harder than the Shugoki and hope they throw something out to parry.. The free hyper armor just needs to go (along with the increased damage when it's down of course). Hyper armor should be something earned by risking an attack being parried/whiffed etc.

mrmistark
03-21-2018, 06:45 AM
Iím sorry.....Iím about to be a Debby downer. Not because I dislike the changes proposed, I thought they looked good until I started thinking about them more. Sorry if I offend anyone, just trying to be constructive


[COLOR=#0000ff]
Charge Of The Oni:
- Charge Of The Oni should knock down an OOS opponent if it connects.
- Charge Of The Oni should knock down an opponent if it connects while Shugoki is in Revenge Mode.


To be honest, charge of the oni is pretty trash. Even if it DID work properly, which it really does not, you canít even do anything with it unless you ledge the opponent with it. It holds no importance in any other circumstance other than unnecessarily draining stamina.

Even if we made changes as proposed, with the recovery time, even if the opponent was knocked down, you canít get back to them to do anything anyways. It wouldnít change anything about the move other than making him better in 4v4. That being said, itís practically impossible to actually get the dang thing to connect as it is right now.


Thank you! with these changes, consider how many unblockables he now has:

- Headbutt
- Demon Embrace
- Second swing of zone
- Charge of the Oni
- Fully charged heavy

Effectively giving 5 unblockables on one hero, I think we're hitting the threshold, a greater number of unblockables per hero would render this hero overpowered. I would suggest, instead of charged heavies mid-combo, he can soft-feint from heavy to light. Though not sure how soft-feints can work on a single-wield character, seeing as the heroes that currently have soft-feints in-between attacks are all dual-wield (with the exception of Raider but that's a zone input so it's a bit different). Warden's SB into GB and Centurion's heavy into GB are different inputs as well because they're GB inputs, not attack inputs..

The problems with a lot of the proposed changes is that, while on paper it looks great, I totally admit this, I totally agreed at first with almost everything, however in execution, most arenít helpful:

1. Charge of Oni as I mentioned early is pretty bad, even with changes except with 4v4 which if we are being honest, Shugoki isnít in a bad place in these modes unless he gets ganked. If we were to do this his charge needs to have faster recovery and way less stamina usage or else it would be literally pointless unless you have a friendly close by to go for the punish.

2. Even though he would have more options, it doesnít matter, because all of his attacks are so easily reacted to that a second attack in chain is almost a moot point as it would never hit unless they sped up his attacks, which doesnít really coincide with his moveset. If you know you canít get a second hit in the chain off in more than 7/10 scenarios, youíre always just going to go for the headbutt option because itís the only guaranteed safe pressure against your opponent in the form of stamina punish.


The few changes I agree would be helpful and actually viable that you proposed:

-Zone second hit UB
-headbutt changes
-Changes to his HA and demons embrace

Itíd be helpful to have different attack strings, but the chains with more than one heavy really would never land. I agree with all 2 string chain combos, and light-> light-> heavy. I still believe these would be pretty moot other than a very rare occasion.

Out of curiosity, what did you think of adding a belly bump as described earlier? There wasnít any feedback on it but I think it might help fix the bigger issue of viable options. Iím not super in love with it but something of the nature feels like it might be a step in a helpful direction.

mrmistark
03-21-2018, 07:19 PM
Sorry, I realized I didnít really specifically address the reason I quoted all of his UB attacks after proposed changes. All of these are too slow and situational.

Itís not like he would be gladiator:
-with skewer (deals good damage and far hazard potential throw) in every chain
-a stunning punch from neutral
- a toe stab that deals damage and is an auto OOS punish
- and zone that is quick and guaranteed if the first part: the punch, lands

(Counting 4 UB, all of which are very much usable, quick, with no preconditions except for skewer, which can be used within chain at any time)


Itís not like he would be HL:
- a character who in one stance has 3 neutral UB moves that can all be soft feinted into each other and cc guaranteeing heavy

(Counting 3 UB **side note, Iím not counter counter strike because you canít stop it anyways so the Ub status is kind of redundant but would put him at 4 if you want to be super technical** again though, these can all be thrown from neutral OS, can soft feint into many things so there are many options, and all CC guarantees free damage)


Itís not like he would be shaman:
- UB in chain attack
- UB headbutt
- UB bite

(Counting 3, all of which are fast, viable, the first has multiple options and the later having huge damage while still being rather quick with small downside)

I hope you can see where Iím going with this:

Firstly, having more UB is not necessarily equivalent to being better unless the moves are viable. The meta is moving towards new rules and to not abide by these new rules is very restricting as a character.

The new rules are basically as follows:

1. Quick UB: deals light damage, drains stamina, has displacement properties, guarantees light to moderate damage, and/or can be followed up.

2. Moderate speed UB: can be used mid chain, can be used in neutral, has options, deals a respected amount of damage forcing reaction, guarantees good damage, depletion of stamina, and/or has a follow up.

3. Slow UB: Deals major damage and canít be used in chain, must be hard canceled, and/or are extreamly situational


In conclusion, basically, the ideas proposed are great, but it ainít enough to bring him up to the new cast.

- Zone would be ok, but compared to other fast UB attacks, having to follow something else makes it too predictable and your opponent would be 1. expecting it and 2. Knowing youíd have to hard cancel into either light or GB most likely. This makes zone an OK Ub, but it I hope you can see how it doesnít really fit the rest of the cast standards.

- headbutt: while putting it in mid combo is great, as previously stated, why would you not go for guaranteed headbutt for stam drain rather than a super slow ďprobably going to be parriedĒ or ďalready got hit once and one more will stop my chain, which is likely they will be able to stop meĒ attack? Essentially it is a good idea but it wonít change the use of how people implement headbutt, essentially making it in the same place as before. As you can see, again, in comparison it really does not live up to the rest of the standards only draining stamina, no follow up, no damage ect. Even if we were to allow it mid chain to all chains, it wouldnít help.

-charge of oni: I wonít get into, see above

- demons embrace: great move but highly situational. A wall must be present 9/10 times to land it, damage is inconsistent and has a gigantic punish if missed on top of the punish the opponent will do. This is a unique one, one we can only compare to shamans bite, which is significantly better.

- fully charged heavy: it has good damage, but again, huge stamina drain and very very situational.

My point is, even if he has 5 Ub, theyíre all going to be situational or subpar in comparison. If we give him another in chain Ub that he can do mix ups with alongside headbutt then he would be significantly better in conjunction with the other proposed changes. That would be all he needs honestly. Something you can cancel so it wonít be over committing like the majority of his moves, has follow up attacks so you can continue to apply pressure and to keep them in range after an attack without changing his identity of being a slow attacker.

Kryltic
03-21-2018, 08:09 PM
Did you just compare the Shugoki to assassins and complain he's not fast enough? O_o

Some of the changes are to round him out and give him more options. By his very nature he will struggle in the super fast meta we have atm. However, I feel you are massively overlooking the fact that with the health increase and removal of the Uninterruptable Stance penalty, he becomes the tank he was always ment to be. Combined with a CGB denying the removal of his Stance means you have to try/risk trading blows with him and he can come out on top of youre not cafeful, especially if he gets even a single Demons Embrace to connect.

Since he is supposed to be a hard hitter and he has slow attacks in both regards Id also suggest a slight damage increase to make sure that, when he hits, it leaves a mark

I'd also suggest an addition of stunning his opponent on a successful charged heavy, parried or not. That way the risk is lowered slightly and he has more ways to pressure his opponent. He might not have the speed to do it but he should have someway at least.

Z1ns
03-21-2018, 08:21 PM
I suggest to give to Shugoki ability to provoke the opponents to heavy
attack or to the easy attack. Shugoki has enough control with headbutt, but not enough for creation of good combinations. All game to come down to debilitation of the opponent and spreading by a bludgeon on the ground. Recently I have played on WarLord and at the same quantity of combinations of blows, the dude creates a real game.:cool:

mrmistark
03-21-2018, 09:59 PM
Did you just compare the Shugoki to assassins and complain he's not fast enough? O_o

Some of the changes are to round him out and give him more options. By his very nature he will struggle in the super fast meta we have atm. However, I feel you are massively overlooking the fact that with the health increase and removal of the Uninterruptable Stance penalty, he becomes the tank he was always ment to be. Combined with a CGB denying the removal of his Stance means you have to try/risk trading blows with him and he can come out on top of youre not cafeful, especially if he gets even a single Demons Embrace to connect.

Since he is supposed to be a hard hitter and he has slow attacks in both regards Id also suggest a slight damage increase to make sure that, when he hits, it leaves a mark

I'd also suggest an addition of stunning his opponent on a successful charged heavy, parried or not. That way the risk is lowered slightly and he has more ways to pressure his opponent. He might not have the speed to do it but he should have someway at least.

With respect, you completely missed the points I was making, and Iím slightly questioning if you bothered to read the previous 2 posts I made?

Point 1: Iím not complaining about his speed, simply arguing that proposed changes to his MOVESET only, the changes to health increase and uninteruptable stance not being part of this as they are great suggestions that I second, do not help make his kit any more viable except for Ub on second swing of zone. The rest is great on paper but does nothing to help him offensively if your opponent knows how to block/parry at all.

Point 2: with the addition to adding the Ub on zone, despite the fact that it would give him 5 Ub attacks, this doesnít mean any are viable other than very situational settings or pre-conditions.

Point 3: THE MAJOR TAKE AWAY- I listed new character Ub moves to show their viability in comparison to Shugoki. the point here being, the current roster that balance patches are trying to match, Shugoki even with proposed changes has severely sub-par UB moves in terms of what they do and what they offer. Half of his Ub are relatively useless in 90% situations, where as with ALL other characters, this is not the case.

Point 4: basically, as Shugoki players, we should want to be able to stray from your typical light into headbutt play over and over without handicapping ourselves. He needs more mix up options otherwise he will forever stuck in this playstyle. If you Opt to play differently than how he is used 90% of the time (headbutting repeatedly), you put yourself at a serious disadvantage.

Point 5/ conclusion: the majority of the changes proposed wonít actually bring him close to on par with the rest of the roster, he needs a little extra forcing the reaction mix-up regardless of speed.

Kryltic
03-21-2018, 10:45 PM
With respect you've missed the whole point of the thread. It seems like you're comparing apples and oranges.

You aren't looking at all the changes as a whole, you're judging the ideas as parts and not judging them as a whole. We already know a tanky character can do well with a grinding game, thats a fact. Our ideas give the Shugoki the grind he needs. They also give him a few tools to go with that. Yes you may still lead with the same openers but after that you now have options. You also have ways to mix up your chains which mean it's not as obvious as to what you are parrying.

Remember we have to balance 1vs1 AND 4vs4. I feel you're judging purely in a duelling scenario.

Yes he could do with another opener but we are being realistic. The Shugoki is not so bad that he will likely get new animations so we have to work with what he already has.

Beyond giving him an increased basic chip damage to say 25% and even when parried he can inflict some chip damage, his slow grind style will always be a "hindrance" compared to uber fast, hyper aggressive characters.

Oupyz
03-21-2018, 11:16 PM
I like various of the other inputs on here, and I definitely like how this discussion is turning out. Upon revising on my previous list and considering some of the suggestions of others:

Headbutt:
- His headbutt should not render him OOS if he initiates the headbutt while at very low stamina.
- His headbutt can also be used as a parry punish mechanic (able to headbutt after any parry).
- His headbutt can wallsplat if close enough to a wall.
- His headbutt can ledge if close enough to one.

Zone Attack:
- Slightly reduce stamina usage on his zone.
- The second swing of his zone attack gets unblockable property.

Demon's Embrace:
- Remove OHK on Demon Embrace at critical health. If Shugo is at critical health, Demon Embrace hits its peak power at like 70-75dmg.
- Demon Embrace should restore stamina if it lands.
- Reduce HP penalty on missed Demon Embrace.
- Demon's Embrace should kill him when the animation ends if he's at critical health and it misses, if he hasn't already been hit by an opponent / friendly fire / feat.

Attacks and Combos:
- Remove the guaranteed GB on the fully charged heavy if it connects with an opponent who was on the ground.
- Add chain: light > light.
- Add chain: heavy > light.
- Add chain: heavy > light > heavy.
- Add chain: light > light > heavy.
- Add chain: light > heavy > light.
- Shugoki can connect a headbutt from any of the above chains

Static Uninterruptible Stance:
- He shouldn't take extra damage when his static HA is down, such as after eating two consecutive hits or after performing a CGB.

Charge Of The Oni:
- Charge Of The Oni should knock down an OOS opponent if it connects.
- Charge Of The Oni should knock down an opponent if it connects while Shugoki is in Revenge Mode.

Additional:
- Slightly increase sprinting speed.
- Increase his HP pool to 170.

I Agree with his buff , but to compensate he shouldn't have hyper armor popping randomly

Static Hyper Armor needs to go

mrmistark
03-21-2018, 11:46 PM
With respect you've missed the whole point of the thread. It seems like you're comparing apples and oranges.

You aren't looking at all the changes as a whole, you're judging the ideas as parts and not judging them as a whole. We already know a tanky character can do well with a grinding game, thats a fact. Our ideas give the Shugoki the grind he needs. They also give him a few tools to go with that. Yes you may still lead with the same openers but after that you now have options. You also have ways to mix up your chains which mean it's not as obvious as to what you are parrying.

Remember we have to balance 1vs1 AND 4vs4. I feel you're judging purely in a duelling scenario.

Yes he could do with another opener but we are being realistic. The Shugoki is not so bad that he will likely get new animations so we have to work with what he already has.

Beyond giving him an increased basic chip damage to say 25% and even when parried he can inflict some chip damage, his slow grind style will always be a "hindrance" compared to uber fast, hyper aggressive characters.

I must say, I donít see how me pointing out the fact that most requested changes wonít be overly helpful is not staying on topic with the discussion. Iím looking at specific moves proposed because those are the couple WITHIN the whole that donít make much sense viably, but you are more than welcome to say what you like. With the hopes that I donít start unnecessary spite and to keep the conversation rolling on a productive and gentlemanly nature, I will leave it at that.

As a whole, changes are awesome. Iím not arguing the fact that they will indeed make him better. The problem is his kit as a whole is largely situational other than headbutt spam. I identify this as a large underlying issue, perhaps you donít and thatís fine. All Iím asking is that instead of adding a whole lot of extra things to his kit, yet again, largely unusable other than specific situation attacks (look at raiders triple heavy string and think of how often that is used and then slow it down a bit for reference), why are we asking for 8 more strings of attacks that we ďmightĒ be able to use to confuse our enemy vs one attack that will make him viable both 1v1 and 4v4? Both his light and heavy are easily blocked and parried on reaction, so even if you fake someone out and throw a heavy instead of light, itís still incredibly reactable. You can correct me if Iím wrong, but Iíve played a lot of Shugoki and thatís my take.

Also with these chains that you are suggesting and allowing headbutt to follow each hit, as I stated before, the change to headbutt does absolutely nothing as literally everyone playing him would be dumb to go for an easily reactable follow up attack in chain as apposed to a guaranteed headbutt 9/10 times.

I would argue that itís more important to balance 1v1 honestly, because if you canít hold up against 1 opponent then how will you hold against 2 taking your armor almost instantly? There goes the headbutt effectiveness on top of this forcing you to rely on revenge and your situational attacks hoping the make a huge mistake. Yes, another in chain CC isnít healthy per se for a 4v4 gank ball setting, but itís the reality of the current roster. Iím not thinking strictly duel, but he isnít really in the worst spot 4v4 and the basic changes to fix his stance and health are all he needs really for 4v4. Another in chain follow up wonít do much more than his headbutt double teaming someone while at the same time will bring him up to a good spot in 1v1/2v2 situations.

Iím asking for an in chain CC that is cancelable but CGB-able to avoid 50/50, keeps enemy close for a follow up instead of pushing them far away and is dodgeable to go in conjunction with headbutt to give another option, not a CC from neutral.

The general changes to his mechanics proposed are awesome and I enjoy your idea for adding bigger chip damage, but if you want to fix his kit as many have given a ton of feedback for, and not just his stance, make it viable.

Itís one thing to change the attack type and throw someone off, but if itís still super slow that even if you threw a different speed attack, I can parry it all, whether faster or slower, on reaction, how is that adding viability? Again, complaint isnít speed, itís the fact that if youíre already going to add multiple not so viable moves to an already situational list, why not take all that effort and give him one move that works much better as far as mix ups and throwing someone off goes?

Kryltic
03-22-2018, 12:12 AM
Again youre missing the point. You're complaining he's slow, shock horror he will be, that's how he is. Get over it and move on. You seem to want him to have super fast moves or mostly unblockables. He doesn't need them.

You can't claim the suggestions are awesome but ultimately useless. They can't all be both. If you feel they are however why not suggest something thats actually viable because while you say you play as a Shugoki you don't speak like someone who has.

I've never found his attack speed to be an issue, just the length of time he can grind in to be one. If you give him more time/health to grind with then he will do far better.

The attack chains are more for 4vs4 and yes they are viable. While we havent suggested mix ups for the most part thats because it doesnt fit him.

Finally if you can parry it all... I guess it makes everything pointless unless he gains permanent HA or attacks like an assassin. Try adding something actually useful to the thread rather than telling us all that our ideas are pointless or useless.

mrmistark
03-22-2018, 12:43 AM
Again youre missing the point. You're complaining he's slow, shock horror he will be, that's how he is. Get over it and move on. You seem to want him to have super fast moves or mostly unblockables. He doesn't need them.

You can't claim the suggestions are awesome but ultimately useless. They can't all be both. If you feel they are however why not suggest something thats actually viable because while you say you play as a Shugoki you don't speak like someone who has.

I've never found his attack speed to be an issue, just the length of time he can grind in to be one. If you give him more time/health to grind with then he will do far better.

The attack chains are more for 4vs4 and yes they are viable. While we havent suggested mix ups for the most part thats because it doesnt fit him.

Finally if you can parry it all... I guess it makes everything pointless unless he gains permanent HA or attacks like an assassin. Try adding something actually useful to the thread rather than telling us all that our ideas are pointless or useless.

Ok, now I know youíre not actually fully reading my posts. MY CONPLAINT ISNT HIS SPEED. Iím arguing SPECIFIC changes proposed. Your taking ďHALF the proposed moves are uselessĒ and applying them to my whole argument in an attempt to invalidate my points rather than actually taking the time to understand what Iím saying. (Caps for emphasis for your convienence as you seem to be skimming my points rather than fully reading).

His BASE MECHANIC CHANGES proposed are what I think are awesome. HOWEVER, REQUESTING NEW MOVES THAT ARENT VIABLE makes no sense. IM ASKING FOR ONLY 1 NEW MODERATE SPEED move to help rather than attempting to ask for 10 normal moves.

I DONT WANT FASTER MOVES. As a Shugoki player, I WANT MORE THAN JUST 1 viable move, yes, I am requesting an in chain Ub, because that is the ONLY way in this game to actually force a true reaction.

Again, I fail to see how an added 600ms, most likely slower, incredibly reactable attack will be used instead of a guaranteed headbutt which will drain half if not more of the opponents stamina. Headbutt factually is a better option than trying to do another follow up chain. If you donít believe this try fighting a Shugoki player and see how many times he does light-> headbutt vs light-> heavy. Guarantee the player goes far headbutt 80% of the time at least.

That is my point. As a Shugoki we HAVE THE OPTION to go heavy->heavy, but the speed is what makes it sub-optimal to do so instead of headbutt. WE HAVE THE OPTION, but from a basic move understanding, it IS BASICALLY OBSELETE and thus these long strings purposed wonít do anything to make HEADBUTT LESS of an optimal play in comparison.

The problem with the purposes changes AGAIN ISNT THE CHANGES TO HIS CLASS SPECIFIC MECHANICS, ONLY HIS ACTUAL CHAINS.

YOU CAN PARRY IT ALL! Thatís my POINT! SHUGOKI IS SLOW AS ALL HELL AND THATS NOT A PROBLEM! ASSUMING THAT ADDING ANOTHER ATTACK TO A CHAIN WILL SOMEHOW CHANGE THIS THOUGH IS CRAZY. His HA IS MADE TO TRADE, he is not made to have big chains BECAUSE THAT DOESNT MAKE SENSE to his character which is primarily a tank and attack TRADER.

Instead of me continually trying to beat a dead horse for you, can you please first read what Iím saying, and then describe what part of giving him an in chain belly bump for a simple mix up that you donít like? Do you not play duel and thus want the long chains to smack the hell out of the opponent while he is dealing with a friendly? Iím trying to figure it out. Is it simply that you donít like the idea? Are you upset that I donít agree with your added chain ideas because I donít think they will be very viable? Or is it simply your opinion that one more Ub doesnít fit his playstyle or something else? Iím sure this is coming off like Iím trying to be a jerk but Iím not. I think we are just having a miscommunication and I am genuinely interested in what parts of my argument you donít understand?

JadeBosson.
03-22-2018, 01:14 AM
i'd say give them double HP but it might be seen as OP vs good shugokis

Kryltic
03-22-2018, 01:25 AM
Please reread your own posts, you have clearly stated his attacks are too slow and easily to react to. Thats heavily implying his problem is with his speed.

Im fully reading YOUR points but you seem to be half ignoring OUR points. (Emphasis mine because you are cherry picking examples.)

Our attack chain ideas are more based for 4vs4 NOT 1vs1 unless they are OOS. You yet again seem to be acting like this is for improving his duelling status. We need to balance to two.

I successfully use the heavy-heavy chain a lot in 4vs4, thats where most of his chains would be used, therefore you feel thats his main weakness. In Duel he would focus more on the grind game. He would be one of the few characters to play totally differently based on the game mode. Ie slow grind or "quick" chains.

Apparently you are unfamiliar with the ways of sarcasm. I was implying that if the Shugoki is so easy to parry then you would have a 90% win rate (at least) and he would be low tier and one of the worst characters in the game... Which hes not.

Our changes let him use his Stance to trade and chain with. Again youre not looking at the whole thing. You sound like one of those who said the Conquerors changes would do nothing for him.

I have read what you've said but you seem to be ignoring me. A "belly bump" sounds terrible and won't happen as the Shugoki is not so bad he needs new animations which clearly the rest of us have identified.

So, give his charged heavies the ability to stun regardless of parrying or not. Plus they should inflict a stamina hit on them also.

A damage boost across the board. He should be the hardest hitting characer in the game.

The ability to change attack directions mid-chain. His attacks are not so fast that it breaks him even with a damage boost.


As a wishlist...

A Charge of the Oni that can lead to a Demons Embrace by pressing "a" (incase of the xbox) mid-charge but with a weaker tracker.

Any heavy attack can be feinted into a "winded" attack via pressing "x" that stuns the opponent with a stamina drain. A sort of Pommel strike.

mrmistark
03-22-2018, 03:14 AM
His problem isnít with speed. The problem is that the chains proposed wonít do a whole lot to fix the underlying issue of his kit which is having more moves that arenít situational other than headbutt spam. Not sure how many times more I have to reword and reiterate this.

Maybe Iím wrong, but this thread doesnít say ďhow to fix Shugoki in 4v4Ē. Itís called ďideas for ShugokiĒ. Itís nice that you want to add longer chains so you can gank and pummel someone in the back while they are busy, but all intents and purposes otherwise, these chain attacks will not be used often. I NEVER called them ďuselessĒ as you suggested, rather not optimal or viable. Just because a move isnít viable doesnít me it is useless if you can still throw it. Itís just a matter of how often youíll be able to land it without facing consequences, which will be hard to do against someone even slightly competent. Just because you CAN land heavy->heavy on someone when they are busy fighting someone else doesnít mean that itíll work in another situation so easily.

Iím attempting to fix both 1v1 and 4v4. His problem isnít 4v4 modes as much as it is 1v1, which is why Iím focusing on a solution that will help 1v1 greatly and 4v4 decently. The other changes to his basic abilities that were listed previously like his HA and health are perfect for 4v4 and 1v1. You keep adding stuff as we go which is fine but also keep in mind not what I had originally posted about. I say that not because I agree or disagree with what you propose but just so you understand Iím going off of the last list summary of the original poster.

Your message is confusing honestly. ďDonít just focus on 1v1Ē but then you want longer chains for specifically 4v4 and say 1v1 to ďdeal with what he hasĒ. You said ďan in chain belly bump CC is stupidĒ but your wishlist asks for an ďin chain CC that looks like pommel strikeĒ

You also said ďwe need to use what we have so we shouldnít expect more moves for him which is why we only requested more attack chains and changes for moves that already existĒ. I said why not cut the multitude of chains requested to give him one new move mechanic in the form of an in chain cc alternative to headbutt that will be more viable and gave reasons why it would be more viable versus the multitude of chains.

Iím fine with the chains being added on top of changes to headbutt, HA and health proposed earlier, but I am not fine if thatís all he gets, because as stated I just donít think in most scenarios these added chains will be very useful other than hitting someone already engaged in a team fight scenario. He needs help when engaged with enemies by himself which the chains proposed donít address, only the changes to zone, HA and health.

Klingentaenz3r
03-22-2018, 09:05 AM
The headbutt, while technically an unblockable can't be achived without a prerequisite (landing a hit). I don't think shugo needs soft feints (kensei is a single wield character with those btw). Honestly, I believe if we had to switch one of those unblockables out for a charged heavy mid combo I'd choose the second swing of the zone. I don't think it would fair him too well with the fact of having no soft feints he would still be pretty easy to parry. Allowing him to charge mid combo would allow him to change up the timing of his combos making him a bit less predictable when performing them.

He has a soft feint already. Heavy soft cancel into demon's embrace. It is however too clunky and hence hard to pull off on an opponent as there is more than enough time between those two moves (embrace goes through the entire build up animation). If the devs want to make it more useable it has to be a bit quicker and more fluent.

- His headbutt can ledge if close enough to one. <- just no. A guaranteed move of a simple light should not legde sb. If it did u would have to make it not guaranteed. Stop this nonsense of trying to give this move the same properties as all the shoves and bashes which all can be interrupted (expt LB, he can only be hit out of his dodge before the shove starts) or dodged. Or at least if u did be wary to follow through entirely. But then u won't have headbutt anymore that puts distance between u and your oppenent. If the headbutt is dodgeable u would want some combo abilities/followups out of it like all the shoves and bashes. It will change the entire nature of the move, and with it the nature of shugo himself.

currently this is to create space and get hyper armor back while also giving a huge stamina punishment so that you have only limited amounts of trials to break through a shugos defence. If OOS it is shugos turn with the aggression. I say he needs a little help there.

Oupyz
03-22-2018, 09:19 AM
u people are out of the world if u think ubisoft will major buff him while keeping his Static HA working as it is now , he already have 53% winrate in 1v1 due his static shield and boring gameplay unless season 5 changed that but i wouldn't be on it

so take his static HA and buff him to compensate as the community see fit , no other way around

mrmistark
03-22-2018, 06:48 PM
u people are out of the world if u think ubisoft will major buff him while keeping his Static HA working as it is now , he already have 53% winrate in 1v1 due his static shield and boring gameplay unless season 5 changed that but i wouldn't be on it

so take his static HA and buff him to compensate as the community see fit , no other way around

If weíre being honest though, thatís because:

1. Theyíve been playing Shugoki for a long time and are really good with him in comparison to normal players
2. They headbutt spam the enemy into OOS and apply a lot of pressure, rinse and repeat
3. Any win from Shugoki is amplified by the fact not many play him, refer to point 1
4. Weíve also had a huge influx of changes and players trying to learn the different play styles of those characters resulting in sub typical performances recently

Sadly you are right for sure. The problem is it doesnít change that the majority of his kit is completely situational.

Card1acArrest
03-28-2018, 10:14 PM
good initiative this.

rep 12 valkyrie, 8 orochi.
(And some 3-4 others to rep3ish.)

Now rep 1 shugoki.

i play 4v4.!! (so this is my angle, i note that many of the louder voices in this thread never play 4v4, but it is by far more common than 1v1)

he is really really weak vs decent players in 4v4.
1v1 is ok, 2-3-4v1 he gets squashed.

2 suggestions in addition to the many good ones here:

1. Charge of the Oni: please consider to change its expiry from plain stopping for 1 second and he starts running again, to just slowing down seamlessly to "runspeed" (he is so slow i dont know if he runs :)).
As it works today, it makes him overall SLOWER which is weird!
plťase consider this proposal in comparison to slight increase in run speed.
the result would be he can do a burst speed for 50% of his stamina.
Also consider if he could finish the run with his normal run hit. th3 result would be he spends almost all his stamina on those 2 actions. it would fit my i mage of him: Slow, but with a tremendous effort he can burst 15 yards!

2. allow a Headbutt for stamina drain ala Warlords (not too fast) and to chain into a light/heavy.

why: It is really painful to play vs turtles. they just gb and block. all Shugoki can do is attempt a light mixed in or feint. vs a good player they will just block everything. OR parry the light for a 30-40 damage punish.
shugoki is meant to trade but then enemy must open the trade. if you feel his lights or feints are good enuff to land a hit, can you explain how? :)

finally, for 4v4, the increased damage taken is a death sentence if you play v 2 or more. i hope they change it.

finally2: his damage seems low compared to many of the boosted classes? he is so SLOW.

Hormly
03-29-2018, 04:28 AM
Shug should have the best shove distance in game, on account of him clearly being inspired by rikishi

Klingentaenz3r
04-17-2018, 12:20 PM
well if you throw an opponent to your back they travel quite far. Even more with the feat "Throws Further" of course. It is nice to hold C on Citadelle and ledge ppl near the balcony area with that. He needs his throw distance in front of him short however to punish OOS opponents on the ground with a charged heavy.

Tirik22x
04-17-2018, 12:39 PM
I could never, ever... possess even one iota of desire to play that blob of a person.

I bet he smells like poop and B.O.

RenegadeTX2000
04-17-2018, 08:12 PM
Shugoki deserves changes and i haven't even bought him for steel yet.