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View Full Version : Deflect will NEVER be useful unless it interrupts hyperarmor/stuns.



PepsiBeastin
03-13-2018, 07:32 PM
One glaring example is that you can deflect a highlander heavy as orochi, hit him with a deflect light, and he can still chain into a heavy to trade. He shouldn't come out on top when he's the one who made the mistake.

Kahuf1
03-13-2018, 07:34 PM
The same with counter attacks... As Highlander main know this, if i counterattack some zone and get hit with rest hits from enemy...

Devils-_-legacy
03-13-2018, 07:37 PM
I tend to deflect more then parry but I wouldn't follow an attack unless ik I'm safe to do so if it was the second heavy would be the one to do it to I learned this the hard way as zerk deflected the first attack before I connected brute force (his deflect gb) The second heavy killed me deflects are very situational

Knight_Raime
03-13-2018, 07:51 PM
Deflect is fine.
It's a tool you use for specific moves.
Parry is your main line defense for stopping attacks.

Lowhappyface123
03-13-2018, 07:57 PM
the whole point of hyper armor is to trade off - even though i do hate it, it is pretty fair

Kelson27
03-14-2018, 03:43 AM
Iíd like to see what his reworks do, as right now deflect is so situational AND risky that I do not believe itís fine - itís a great idea for a mechanic but in practice... Itís tight timing and largely inconsistent, yet get it wrong, youíll eat a hit, get it right, youíll eat a hit, itís better off not used. *at least until the lag comp comes in, hopefully.

Itís become far less useful with the increase in hyper armour and unblockables since launch. Point being if parry is what we should be using instead, then youíre no better off than any other class, and youíre stuck with the trade offs for it.

High-Horse
03-14-2018, 04:11 AM
One glaring example is that you can deflect a highlander heavy as orochi, hit him with a deflect light, and he can still chain into a heavy to trade. He shouldn't come out on top when he's the one who made the mistake.

In this scenario, it's obvious the Orochi made the mistake by using deflect on an attack that has a hyper armor followup.

Deflect isn't Parry. They're both distinct tools for different situations.

KotoKuraken
03-14-2018, 04:21 AM
Assassins don't need yet another amazing tool in their kit, they're fine between the light spam, having almost the same health as everyone else, (like only 10-20 health difference), and having pretty much the same damage output as everyone else.

Heavies need that hyperarmor to do its job to stand a chance against the faster characters

Baturai
03-14-2018, 07:45 AM
Stop generalizing "AssAssins" not every assassin is on the same level

Kamen42
03-14-2018, 10:35 AM
Personally I always thought it was weird that deflects don't interrupt combos. If you deflect a light attack, the combo can still continue. If you simply blocked instead, the combo would stop. But I learned to live with that

KotoKuraken
03-14-2018, 03:57 PM
Let's take a look at the Assassins:
Berserker: 120 health, has hyperarmor up 99% of the time, has unblockables, has quick heavies that chain with lights and vary between 30-45 damage. Despite what many may say, he's pretty powerful
Peacekeeper: 120 health, no hyperarmor, no unblockables, uses bleed and quick attacks to stay powerful. Hasn't been touched in a long time since she's fine, even without unblockables or bashes
Shaman: 120 health, no hyperarmor, has unblockables and bashes, has the same soft feints as Peacekeeper (heavy into guardbreak and heavy into light bleed). Still regarded as slightly OP
Gladiator: 120 health, no hyperarmor, has unblockable and bashes, has a quick unblockable move that comes out faster than most character's lights, quick 30 damage heavies, has an unblockable pin that does a lot of bleed and guarantees heavy on wallthrow. S tier
Orochi: 120 health, no hyperarmor (except on heavy deflect), no bashes, no unblockables. Quick lights, quick zone, but relies on his deflects and counter moves to gain the advantage. May require a small tweak to give him a boost
Shinobi: 110 health, has hyperarmor, no unblockables, has a bash that guarantees a 30 damage heavy (you cannot grab Shinobi after his initial kick if he uses a light). Has quick double lights, long range guardbreaks that can interrupt opponents in the small recovery window they have after heavies and even lights

tl;dr
From this, the only hero that looks like he would need a lil boost is Orochi, because deflects are yet another tool in the huge kit pretty much all Assassins have that make them so powerful. And bear in mind, the majority of the rest of the roster shares the same or very similar healthpool to these characters without as much mobility. Deflects don't need to interrupt attacks or get any more powerful. Maybe you can make them slightly easier to use, but I wouldn't alter the damage or existing properties to any of the deflects.

HazelrahFirefly
03-14-2018, 08:32 PM
What deflects need is

1) to not be interruptable. Even if you trade with it, it should be guaranteed. Its already a huge risk to try and deflect instead of block or parry. Why should you also be stopped cold.

2) they shouls function against unblockables! The same thing is true about counter crushing. I HATE that unblockable moves outright negate other parts of kits. They already cant be blocked, so they should deflectable and crushable.

High-Horse
03-14-2018, 08:57 PM
What deflects need is

1) to not be interruptable. Even if you trade with it, it should be guaranteed. Its already a huge risk to try and deflect instead of block or parry. Why should you also be stopped cold.

2) they shouls function against unblockables! The same thing is true about counter crushing. I HATE that unblockable moves outright negate other parts of kits. They already cant be blocked, so they should deflectable and crushable.

1 I agree with, or they at least those attacks that don't should have some hyperarmor.

2 No I don't agree. It's dumbing the game down to have multiple tools all able to overlap and each being able to handle everything. It cuts decision making from "They're throwing out X, so I need to Y/better not Z" down to "They're throwing out X, which does more damage between Y and Z/which is safer." I'd prefer that each tool have a specific purpose and thus specific weaknesses.

If you could deflect an unblockable, why bother parrying it or anything else? Not only does it make parts of the kit and mechanics redundant, it takes away the option to make a bad decision, which is really the point of Player vs Player. Winner usually goes to the one who made the least mistakes.

HazelrahFirefly
03-14-2018, 09:11 PM
Buuuuut, if you deflect an unlockable you are still going to eat that hit, same if you crushing counter it. At least that was my intention. It would become a risky technique that still worked, instead of the unblockable just nullifying a part of a heroes kit.

Having parry be the end-all answer is terrible imo. Its one of this games major flaws, even after the changes. Its still mostly a defensive meta game, and it needs to be offensive.

High-Horse
03-14-2018, 10:37 PM
Buuuuut, if you deflect an unlockable you are still going to eat that hit, same if you crushing counter it. At least that was my intention. It would become a risky technique that still worked, instead of the unblockable just nullifying a part of a heroes kit.

Having parry be the end-all answer is terrible imo. Its one of this games major flaws, even after the changes. Its still mostly a defensive meta game, and it needs to be offensive.

Oh, you mean you'd take the damage but still pull off the deflect? That would be interesting, tho maybe needlessly risky unless it was the killing blow. It's ok for a mechanic like unblockables to make another mechanic like deflection null. It's part of the rock paper scissors balance of fighting games. No move or attack should be uncounterable.

I agree the game could still use a nudge in the aggressive direction, but there needs to be a balance there too. While we may not like turtle staring contests, we may even less like twitchy, thoughtless, button mashing aggro.

Felheric
03-14-2018, 11:49 PM
What would also help alot if changing stance didnt put 100 ms delay on dodge.

HazelrahFirefly
03-15-2018, 02:38 AM
Oh, you mean you'd take the damage but still pull off the deflect? That would be interesting, tho maybe needlessly risky unless it was the killing blow. It's ok for a mechanic like unblockables to make another mechanic like deflection null. It's part of the rock paper scissors balance of fighting games. No move or attack should be uncounterable.

I agree the game could still use a nudge in the aggressive direction, but there needs to be a balance there too. While we may not like turtle staring contests, we may even less like twitchy, thoughtless, button mashing aggro.

Yeah, that's exactly the kind of thing I mean.

You might be right about the aggressive meta but... at this point I want to risk it. I'm tired of gb and parry being the entire game. Its getting more and more boring.