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View Full Version : Berserker Rework Cocnerns



Trenk2009
02-12-2018, 05:19 PM
Hi there.

Just some concerns about berserker rework:

- Stamina. With all the preview test we got I've watched a lot of berserker gameplay and it seems as tho his feints are costing a **** ton stamina. Like "side light + top heavy + feint + side light + top heavy + feint" seems to be enough to deplete almost all of berserker's stamina pool. So basically 2 stikes for 30 damages overall taking of his stamina ... It's seems a bit too much .. Did some stamina cost went up with new patch ? Even if not, don't you think he should have a bit more stamina to play with ?

- Top heavy damage. Definitely too much nerf in my opinion here. I think 40 damage would have been a great enough nerf. But with 30 damage only, it really seems as tho berserk looses all of his trading potential as well as any interest at letting this strike go trough, especially considering how early berserker needs to feint his attacks. Maybe buffing his damage to at least 40 would be better, especially considering that the excuse for the nerf is "easier to go to in the chain", yet top heavy OPENER is 38 damage. The fact that it became an unblocable doesn't justify this much nerf.

- Backward zone attack. Why so much stamina increase ? We already barely used this move ever considering how situational it seemed to be; now it's like you don't want us to even bother.

- Deflect not being in auto-gb mod anymore. Why ? It seems as tho this was considered a buff since the excuse for it was that "in many situation the auto-gb was a bad thing that could get berserk punished"; yet the only thing it seems to do for me is nerfing the berserker since; 1) if we miss a deflect, muscle memory could make us press GB eitherwise and end up probably taking a hit; 2) Delaying the input could result in the gb being to slow to go trough before another fast attack comes out; and 3) with the loss of early connections to heavys after parry and now the loss of the auto gbing; the berserker basically looses all of his dangerousness even when under fatigue; which is not only a nerf but also goes against the berserker always furiously harrassing archetype of character.... Kinda sad.


Here it is; waiting for feed back guys ;)

High-Horse
02-12-2018, 05:43 PM
I agree.

Stamina was already an issue for zerker being so feint-dependent. I love that they emphasized her feints but they run you out of gas even faster, especially with the slashing rush nerf.

It doesn't make sense for the top heavy FINISHER to do less damage than a neutral top heavy. Unblockable might look scary but it isn't any different for an opponent that has no trouble parrying it, except they risk less health on missing the parry. It ends the chain, so it isn't like it really sets anything else up except some more stamina for feints.

How does the new deflect affect OOS state? Does the GB come out slower like throwing one out from neutral? Right now, OOS deflect into a wall splat for a side heavy is great for teaching opponents not to underestimate you even OOS. I do that a couple times and they tend to walk on eggshells when I'm OOS.

S0Mi_xD
02-12-2018, 06:20 PM
Welcome to the club ^^

Stamina was always a problem - but now we need to rely even more on feints and those are extremly stamina intensive.

Completly agree on Top heavy finisher - it should be 40.

This stamina increase killed it, also it is very limited and should synergize more with Berserkers kit.
Here is my suggestion on it: https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1836045-quot-Feedback-Complaint-quot-on-Paper-from-a-bloody-Zerker-Main-Suggestion!

Slashing Rush

1. Keep those 65 Stamina cost for slashing rush

2. Split Stamina cost into 3 Parts:
- First Swing = 35 Stamina
- Second Swing = 15 Stamina
- Third Swing = 15 Stamina

3. You can chain Slashing rush to skip the recovery on whiffs (the same way you can do it with the zone)

4. Dodge Cancel
- you can cancel Slashing Rush after each swing with a dodge
That means there are 2 time windows to actually dodge cancel Slashing rush - between the first and second - and the second and third)
There won't be a "Flicker" as well.

5. Stamina Regen
- if you successfull perform Slashing Rush (after the third swing) you get a Stamina regen boost.
- it lasts 10 seconds and regens 100 stamina (10 stamina each second)
- it stops to regen if you get hit, parried or you reach max. stamina
- it will still regen if you attack (thats how you make full use of the 100 stamina)
- if you run out of stamina with the last swing you won't get a stamina regen



My Comment on the Suggestion:
Slashing rush will be not used at all, stamina cost is to high to be worth using it.
But Berserker is already a stamina intensive char and the stamina regen could balance out Berserkers stamina problems and the high cost of Slashing Rush.
Chaining Slashig Rush improves Berserkers mix ups.
The dodge cancel, can reduce the cost of Slashing Rush and give you more control about Slashing Rush.
To actually get the Stamina Regen, you need to spend all 65 Stamina and to make full use out of it, you need to attack and watch out to not get hit yourself or get parried.

That's all - those are 3 major buffs to slashing rush which would give Slashing a meaning (except the escape part) and would improve Berserkers synergy to Slashing Rush, while underlining his relentless attack theme.

About Deflect - i guess we will need hyperarmor on deflect.
But i don't think the change is a bad thing - it just needs some practice to get it into muscle memory.
I don't know if you still can deflect GB in OOS - needs testing


For Berserkers stamina Problem - i don't think a simple reduction would do the job.
If we need a reduction then we need a Feint cost reduction - at least to the half amount of the current cost.
And with the Slashing rush stamina boost we will have a good tool to go in offense for a short time to not think much about stamina and Slashing rush would be a great tool.

Tyrjo
02-12-2018, 06:33 PM
It's probably because they don't want berserkers to 100 to 0 people with out them having their turn.

FredEx919
02-12-2018, 09:53 PM
Thanks for the Berserker feedback everyone. I'm going to be posting a feedback thread close to the launch of season V for all three of the character getting major updates. We'll be looking out for this type of feedback and any other thoughts once you get some hands on time as well.

bmason1000
02-13-2018, 07:43 AM
Thanks for the Berserker feedback everyone. I'm going to be posting a feedback thread close to the launch of season V for all three of the character getting major updates. We'll be looking out for this type of feedback and any other thoughts once you get some hands on time as well. That is excellent. I'm really looking forward to finally playing the rework because as it is now I'm extremely apprehensive about it. I've been an exclusive zerk player since the open beta and i imagine I'll have a lot to say haha

S0Mi_xD
02-13-2018, 08:17 AM
That is excellent. I'm really looking forward to finally playing the rework because as it is now I'm extremely apprehensive about it. I've been an exclusive zerk player since the open beta and i imagine I'll have a lot to say haha

Me too :D
I already have some ideas to change berserker - now i need to play him myself and see if he really needs it or not.

1. My Slashing Rush suggestion (dodge cancel and stamina boost)

(2. is Optional - Fir the stamina boost isn't enough)
2. Maybe a feint cost reduction - i guess 1/3 less would be fair with the Stamina boost from Slashing Rush
(If i would decide between Stamina Boost or Feint cost reduction i would take the Stamina boost, because it would regen when you attack or feint - it would be a better tool)

3. Top Heavy finisher 40 Dmg

4. If you hold Heavy after a feint it will turn into the second bear mauler hit, but it consums stamina for 2 heavies.
This would actually help to get out the 3rd Bear Mauler easier, but wouldn't allow us to use second and third Bear Mauler as an OOS punish.
And it would pay a fair price to get this hit - Stamina Cost for 2 heavies and a feint.

(The last one is Optional)
5. Remove the Top heavy unblockable and give us a Melee attack (the forward punch from the GB) that we can get out of a combo finisher softfeint.
Softfeint with GB while doing a combo finisher (Top heavy or Bear Mauler)
(About stamina cost and other things like dmg i am not sure )

Edit:
Forgot to mention Hyperarmor for Deflect (or maybe rework it)
Only if it performs really bad

bmason1000
02-13-2018, 09:41 PM
Me too :D
I already have some ideas to change berserker - now i need to play him myself and see if he really needs it or not.

1. My Slashing Rush suggestion (dodge cancel and stamina boost)

(2. is Optional - Fir the stamina boost isn't enough)
2. Maybe a feint cost reduction - i guess 1/3 less would be fair with the Stamina boost from Slashing Rush
(If i would decide between Stamina Boost or Feint cost reduction i would take the Stamina boost, because it would regen when you attack or feint - it would be a better tool)

3. Top Heavy finisher 40 Dmg

4. If you hold Heavy after a feint it will turn into the second bear mauler hit, but it consums stamina for 2 heavies.
This would actually help to get out the 3rd Bear Mauler easier, but wouldn't allow us to use second and third Bear Mauler as an OOS punish.
And it would pay a fair price to get this hit - Stamina Cost for 2 heavies and a feint.

(The last one is Optional)
5. Remove the Top heavy unblockable and give us a Melee attack (the forward punch from the GB) that we can get out of a combo finisher softfeint.
Softfeint with GB while doing a combo finisher (Top heavy or Bear Mauler)
(About stamina cost and other things like dmg i am not sure )

Edit:
Forgot to mention Hyperarmor for Deflect (or maybe rework it)
Only if it performs really bad I'm likin it. Can't wait to get hands on so we can stop speculating.

That punch though... that could have been the ONLY thing the rework did and i would have been prefectly content. Complete berserk rework, "we added this punch." Fantastic, excellent job, I'm completely satisfied.

Mr_AwfuL
02-14-2018, 12:04 AM
Although the rework has some improvements like the unblockable/speed increase along with some nerfs such as gb damage/light damage/dodge light speed the damage reduction to top heavy is a huge nerf considering how slow it is, its almost always feinted because it gets parried but sometimes we'll let it go and get a lucky shot in, there is alot of risk vs. reward involved, 45 damage would have been expected but 30? It's a love tap that already gets parried 80% of the time.

bmason1000
02-14-2018, 02:01 AM
Although the rework has some improvements like the unblockable/speed increase along with some nerfs such as gb damage/light damage/dodge light speed the damage reduction to top heavy is a huge nerf considering how slow it is, its almost always feinted because it gets parried but sometimes we'll let it go and get a lucky shot in, there is alot of risk vs. reward involved, 45 damage would have been expected but 30? It's a love tap that already gets parried 80% of the time. What got nerfed about gb damage and dodge light speed?

Mr_AwfuL
02-14-2018, 02:11 AM
Dodge light attack is slower than before and although not significant the damage from forward throw was reduced to 0.

bmason1000
02-14-2018, 02:17 PM
Dodge light attack is slower than before and although not significant the damage from forward throw was reduced to 0. I didn't realise you meant the throw. I don't believe there's anything in the patch notes about spin chop being slowed down?

S0Mi_xD
02-14-2018, 04:25 PM
I didn't realise you meant the throw. I don't believe there's anything in the patch notes about spin chop being slowed down?

Dodge light speed have the same speed.
But there is another speed difference - take a look at 1:46
It shows the speed difference between the removed dodge feint of chained heavies.
Some people say they never used it - it was useless... not really it have a small frame advantage and a good stamina advantage.
The "Flicker"- reason they gave use (why they removed dodge cancel) is just a cheap excuse to justify this removal.
The "flicker" is still there on heavy dodge cancels - also i never saw somebody complain about this,since you can only follow it up with a well telegraphed dodgeattack.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN5TVf_e-KI&t=261s

Maxime_Qc-
02-14-2018, 07:53 PM
LAST DAY TO HAVE FUN WITH BERSERKER TODAY

Enjoy

Because tomorrow Will be swearing at Ubisoft day for ****ing up zerker !!! Lolll

bmason1000
02-14-2018, 11:30 PM
Dodge light speed have the same speed.
But there is another speed difference - take a look at 1:46
It shows the speed difference between the removed dodge feint of chained heavies.
Some people say they never used it - it was useless... not really it have a small frame advantage and a good stamina advantage.
The "Flicker"- reason they gave use (why they removed dodge cancel) is just a cheap excuse to justify this removal.
The "flicker" is still there on heavy dodge cancels - also i never saw somebody complain about this,since you can only follow it up with a well telegraphed dodgeattack.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN5TVf_e-KI&t=261s i knew they didn't change spin chop haha

But THAT... that sucks.

S0Mi_xD
02-15-2018, 03:13 AM
i knew they didn't change spin chop haha

But THAT... that sucks.
I know, that you know it ;3 just wanted to cement your point.

Yeah ... It was rarely used because it was a "pro" skill using it in the right moment.
But yeah - sometimes i think they do such unneeded changes to have something in the patch notes :'D

bmason1000
02-16-2018, 08:05 AM
So... what do you guys think?

FrappeWarrior
02-16-2018, 08:25 AM
So... what do you guys think?

i think he needs a stamina buff and his top heavy brought up to 40dmg.

Jiblet2017
02-16-2018, 08:55 AM
I have been playing the new zerk as more of a skirmisher to pretty amazing success, granted I am only a mediocre player since playing nearly daily from beta.

He is definitely a bit stamina hungry - but the same could be said for Kensei if you are looking for big chains (which is risky against a solid defensive player anyway). His lights by no means are weak damage-wise (15) and I seem to be consistently getting them in on decent players (with some blocks but only three or so parries across about 40+ matches). Where the old zerk seemed more about capitalizing on mistakes for big punishes, his rework seems to avoid too many stamina problems if you feint in for a bit of damage (and possible working into mixups), then switching to defensive play to recover (plus his deflect into GB is actually very good still). If feels like switching from offense (granted for a shorter time than before) to defense is a effective/fun play-style for him.

I would say that the community should have a bit of time with him to adjust before talking about buffs or nerfs. I am really enjoying the rework honesty. I don't say this much (because I am a jerk), but good job UBI (on the kensei rework as well - I haven't tried conq).

Mr_AwfuL
02-16-2018, 09:20 AM
I am enjoying the new changes but his top heavy is incredibly weak, landing it does next to no damage, it's very slow and you run the risk of being parried/dodged/traded for even more damage, it needs to be increased to 40-45 to make it viable. Other unblockables are knocking out more than half of my health when trading it.

Jiblet2017
02-16-2018, 09:37 AM
I am enjoying the new changes but his top heavy is incredibly weak, landing it does next to no damage, it's very slow and you run the risk of being parried/dodged/traded for even more damage, it needs to be increased to 40-45 to make it viable. Other unblockables are knocking out more than half of my health when trading it.

I believe the Devs stated that the top unlockable was put in to add pressure to Zerks offense. Nobody is forcing you to let your top heavies rip or trade without heavy mindgames.

Redkey.
02-16-2018, 11:54 AM
I hoped, Berserker will be more berserker - bruteforce, longer chains, etc.
But, what about parrying a Charged atacks? We got special reactions for each type of power - the more powerful the blow, the less the benefits of parrying it. It's not just a logic, but a game logic. Especially if you want to return the berserker, and improve it against the turtles. So, what is a current reaction for parrying charged heavies? Is it changed accordingly?

And berserker like this is a someone who are using inertia in his moves alot, so chains cost should take this into account (the cost of 2, 3, etc. move) The same for all of his windmills. Why they cost so much? There is no logic at all.

Of course, to use chains more often, parry mechanic shoud be changed. Or something. This feinting viking with a beard looks really awkward. I'm not against feints. it's pretty cool. But not like a basement for the berserker ffs.

Mr_AwfuL
02-16-2018, 04:52 PM
I believe the Devs stated that the top unlockable was put in to add pressure to Zerks offense. Nobody is forcing you to let your top heavies rip or trade without heavy mindgames.

It's still too weak, we have lower hp and we're trading weak lights and top heavies, it obviously needs adjusting to balance the class.

High-Horse
02-16-2018, 05:01 PM
After doing some duels, it doesn't feel like the top unblockable helps much. It still gets parried or they roll away, tho rolling away means they can eat a Head Slicer or even Crusher. At 30 damage, it should be a little faster. Maybe give it a charge up mechanic that does 40+ damage?

Deflect no longer works when OOS, which is sad to me but is in line with other assassins. It was just amazingly thematic to still be so dangerous even OOS, felt very zerkery. Oh well...

I hop between Zerker and Kensei mostly, and the Kensei rework is spot on. Feels slower but much faster at the same time.

bmason1000
02-16-2018, 05:22 PM
Agreed, think top heavy damage should be moved to 40. Considering the uncomboed top heavy from neutral still does 38.

I, too, miss the oos deflect. No big deal, learn to adapt i guess.

Tell you what i do like though, new oos punish. If you're lucky, they make a mistake and you can get it twice. That is ridiculous damage. Also, hyper armor adjustments. All of them. They work great.

4v4 zerk feels largely unchanged. Sliiiightly improved as a ganker because of the easily accessed unblockable. 1vX situations, not much different honestly. Which is fantastic, because 1vX is my favorite way to fight and I'd be angry if zerk wasn't good at it anymore.

1v1, I'm learning how to mix in even more feints than before (which i didn't think was possible, my god) and having some real success. Relearning how to make that opening move. It's not about trading anymore boys, it's a whole new ball game. It's all about the heavy feint game now. Luckily, it's the same feint game you used to play we're just more reliant on it now. Which seems fine because it's more successful now. I don't know about the rest of you, but last night i got the fastest kills i have ever gotten in FH by a long shot. Still can't really mix in bear mauler in to 1v1, anyone had any luck yet?

Overall, I suppose I'm not disappointed at all. 1v1 playstyle only changed mildly, barely at all, but it is indeed more successful. 4v4 i also feel slightly improved. Only real critiques i have? 40 damage on the top heavy and can you PLEASE drop the stamina cost on slashing rush? Holy piss that is ridiculous. Effectively made slashing rush useless.

S0Mi_xD
02-16-2018, 07:16 PM
Agreed, think top heavy damage should be moved to 40. Considering the uncomboed top heavy from neutral still does 38.

I, too, miss the oos deflect. No big deal, learn to adapt i guess.

Tell you what i do like though, new oos punish. If you're lucky, they make a mistake and you can get it twice. That is ridiculous damage. Also, hyper armor adjustments. All of them. They work great.

4v4 zerk feels largely unchanged. Sliiiightly improved as a ganker because of the easily accessed unblockable. 1vX situations, not much different honestly. Which is fantastic, because 1vX is my favorite way to fight and I'd be angry if zerk wasn't good at it anymore.

1v1, I'm learning how to mix in even more feints than before (which i didn't think was possible, my god) and having some real success. Relearning how to make that opening move. It's not about trading anymore boys, it's a whole new ball game. It's all about the heavy feint game now. Luckily, it's the same feint game you used to play we're just more reliant on it now. Which seems fine because it's more successful now. I don't know about the rest of you, but last night i got the fastest kills i have ever gotten in FH by a long shot. Still can't really mix in bear mauler in to 1v1, anyone had any luck yet?

Overall, I suppose I'm not disappointed at all. 1v1 playstyle only changed mildly, barely at all, but it is indeed more successful. 4v4 i also feel slightly improved. Only real critiques i have? 40 damage on the top heavy and can you PLEASE drop the stamina cost on slashing rush? Holy piss that is ridiculous. Effectively made slashing rush useless.

You said it right - some of Berserkers main aspects changed.
His focus on trading attacks is differnt then befor - it is still there but not to trade huge dmg, more to maintain your pacing, you relentless attacking.
His focus on feint massivly increased.
We need some stamina compinsation, also slashing rush needs a buff/change to not lose the pacing of the game, even if you "retreat" - that's a huge flaw in his kit.

I pulled off bear mauler 3 or 4 times, but you know what the problem here is?
It needs a slightly bigger feint window - the second and third bear mauler attack allways where hard to feint, that was one reason why it was never really used.
About pulling off bear mauler i already made a comment - and as soon the feedback thread is opened, i will post it there again.
My idea is, to give Berserker the ability to switch into the second heavy chain after a hard feint, by holding the heavy attack after the feint.
But the price for this will be a higher stamina cost. So it would cost stamina for 2 heavies?.
Total Stamina cost:
First Heavy > Feint > Hold heavy (so it becomes the second Bear Mauler chain)
1 heavy cost + feint cost + 2 heavy cost at ones.