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S0Mi_xD
02-09-2018, 04:39 PM
OK - now abit more serious about this - yesterday i was abit triggered/slightly disappointed by the extend of the changes.
Now i wil give some Feedback, i can give without needing to play it, because i can tell out of pure experience.
But first - take my thanks :) basically those are good changes.


“Slashing Rush”

“Slashing Rush” is now much easier to perform.
When “Slashing Rush” is parried, Berserker will now use the shorter “Heavy parried” reaction.
“Slashing Rush” can no longer Execute.
“Slashing Rush” now costs 65 stamina (was 12 stamina).
“Slashing Rush” no longer has extra stamina costs when missed or parried.

Developer Comments: “Slashing Rush” is basically like a backwards Zone Attack, and there were a lot of times where it seemed you wanted the backward version, but got the forward version accidentally. This felt bad and is now fixed.

The reason that “Slashing Rush” can no longer execute and has higher stamina costs is to unify it more with the forward Zone Attack – and if you’re using Slashing Rush you probably are using it to escape, and don’t want to get locked into the Execution Window.

1. What does "now much easier to perfrom" mean? What is the change, why will it be easier to use? Is it still the zone input?
2. About the Parry aspects - i am a frequent Slashing Rush user and i got never parried while using Slashing Rush - not even NPCs :D (those changes are not bad but nothing interessting)
3. The Execution... 3 times i managed to execute someone with Slashing Rush - it is VERY RARE and i don't think this change was neccessary, but i also won't miss it.
4. Now my biggest problem with this Change: Stamina Cost !
The irony here is - in the same moment you make it easier to perform you killed it....
It is way to much stamina cost for this move.
I like to use it to kill many Minions in Dominion - now i can forget it.
It's not only to escape - it is a great Whiff tool as well. I will never spend nearly half of my stamina for a whiff....

Also what do you mean by "extra cost on miss"
The old slashing rush works this way: 3 swings - each swing costs stamina (each 4 stamina)
Now it will cost 65 stamina for just the use of it ?


Dodge Cancel

Removed Dodge cancel from Light Attack Opener strikes.
Removed Dodge cancel from Heavy Attacks starting from the 2nd in Dance of the Paired Blades.
Gave Light Opener's miss recoveries the ability to branch to Zone Attack (as other miss recoveries already have).
Dodge Cancels can now only be performed while Berserker has Stamina.

Developer Comments: The dodge cancels were removed because they were causing Flicker and rollback issues on the shortest attacks.

To compensate, we allow whiffed Light Openers to branch to Zone Attacks - an ability that Berserker already had on other attacks. This should allow the Berserker to continue to be unpredictable, while showing a clean and fair user interface to the opponent.

While i understand why you removed the Dodge cancel i think reason is just weak excuse - the "flicker" and rollback are no issues.
- to avoid the rollback just don't buttonmash dodge
- the "flicker" wasn't every a problem - it's not like you go instantly into an attack, first comes the dodge and in this dodge you can initiate a spinchop.
even with this "flicker" spinchop was easy blocked and parried - even by low rep player (new player)

Dodge cancel wasn't really useful as a offensive tool - and that's why i won't miss really miss it, but it helped me to safe some stamina for the feints!!

And now we are going into the Suggestion part
Berserker is a very stamina intensive Char - and with those new changes you amplify this trait of Berserker without giving some stamina option.
But i don't want you to reduce some costs or raise Berserkers Stamina Pool - this won't help at all.
The following suggestion will ONLY aim at Slashing Rush and reycling Dodge Cancel.

Slashing Rush

1. Keep those 65 Stamina cost for slashing rush

2. Split Stamina cost into 3 Parts:
- First Swing = 35 Stamina
- Second Swing = 15 Stamina
- Third Swing = 15 Stamina

3. You can chain Slashing rush to skip the recovery on whiffs (the same way you can do it with the zone)

4. Dodge Cancel
- you can cancel Slashing Rush after each swing with a dodge
That means there are 2 time windows to actually dodge cancel Slashing rush - between the first and second - and the second and third)
There won't be a "Flicker" as well.

5. Stamina Regen
- if you successfull perform Slashing Rush (after the third swing) you get a Stamina regen boost.
- it lasts 10 seconds and regens 100 stamina (10 stamina each second)
- it stops to regen if you get hit, parried or you reach max. stamina
- it will still regen if you attack (thats how you make full use of the 100 stamina)
- if you run out of stamina with the last swing you won't get a stamina regen



My Comment on the Suggestion:
Slashing rush will be not used at all, stamina cost is to high to be worth using it.
But Berserker is already a stamina intensive char and the stamina regen could balance out Berserkers stamina problems and the high cost of Slashing Rush.
Chaining Slashig Rush improves Berserkers mix ups.
The dodge cancel, can reduce the cost of Slashing Rush and give you more control about Slashing Rush.
To actually get the Stamina Regen, you need to spend all 65 Stamina and to make full use out of it, you need to attack and watch out to not get hit yourself or get parried.

That's all - those are 3 major buffs to slashing rush which would give Slashing a meaning (except the escape part) and would improve Berserkers synergy to Slashing Rush, while underlining his relentless attack theme.

Alustar.exe
02-09-2018, 06:22 PM
Berserker needs a form of crowd control, either from neutral, or part of his chain.

UbiJurassic
02-09-2018, 08:29 PM
OK - now abit more serious about this - yesterday i was abit triggered/slightly disappointed by the extend of the changes.
Now i wil give some Feedback, i can give without needing to play it, because i can tell out of pure experience.
But first - take my thanks :) basically those are good changes.



1. What does "now much easier to perfrom" mean? What is the change, why will it be easier to use? Is it still the zone input?
2. About the Parry aspects - i am a frequent Slashing Rush user and i got never parried while using Slashing Rush - not even NPCs :D (those changes are not bad but nothing interessting)
3. The Execution... 3 times i managed to execute someone with Slashing Rush - it is VERY RARE and i don't think this change was neccessary, but i also won't miss it.
4. Now my biggest problem with this Change: Stamina Cost !
The irony here is - in the same moment you make it easier to perform you killed it....
It is way to much stamina cost for this move.
I like to use it to kill many Minions in Dominion - now i can forget it.
It's not only to escape - it is a great Whiff tool as well. I will never spend nearly half of my stamina for a whiff....

Also what do you mean by "extra cost on miss"
The old slashing rush works this way: 3 swings - each swing costs stamina (each 4 stamina)
Now it will cost 65 stamina for just the use of it ?



While i understand why you removed the Dodge cancel i think reason is just weak excuse - the "flicker" and rollback are no issues.
- to avoid the rollback just don't buttonmash dodge
- the "flicker" wasn't every a problem - it's not like you go instantly into an attack, first comes the dodge and in this dodge you can initiate a spinchop.
even with this "flicker" spinchop was easy blocked and parried - even by low rep player (new player)

Dodge cancel wasn't really useful as a offensive tool - and that's why i won't miss really miss it, but it helped me to safe some stamina for the feints!!

And now we are going into the Suggestion part
Berserker is a very stamina intensive Char - and with those new changes you amplify this trait of Berserker without giving some stamina option.
But i don't want you to reduce some costs or raise Berserkers Stamina Pool - this won't help at all.
The following suggestion will ONLY aim at Slashing Rush and reycling Dodge Cancel.

Slashing Rush

1. Keep those 65 Stamina cost for slashing rush

2. Split Stamina cost into 3 Parts:
- First Swing = 35 Stamina
- Second Swing = 15 Stamina
- Third Swing = 15 Stamina

3. You can chain Slashing rush to skip the recovery on whiffs (the same way you can do it with the zone)

4. Dodge Cancel
- you can cancel Slashing Rush after each swing with a dodge
That means there are 2 time windows to actually dodge cancel Slashing rush - between the first and second - and the second and third)
There won't be a "Flicker" as well.

5. Stamina Regen
- if you successfull perform Slashing Rush (after the third swing) you get a Stamina regen boost.
- it lasts 10 seconds and regens 100 stamina (10 stamina each second)
- it stops to regen if you get hit, parried or you reach max. stamina
- it will still regen if you attack (thats how you make full use of the 100 stamina)
- if you run out of stamina with the last swing you won't get a stamina regen



My Comment on the Suggestion:
Slashing rush will be not used at all, stamina cost is to high to be worth using it.
But Berserker is already a stamina intensive char and the stamina regen could balance out Berserkers stamina problems and the high cost of Slashing Rush.
Chaining Slashig Rush improves Berserkers mix ups.
The dodge cancel, can reduce the cost of Slashing Rush and give you more control about Slashing Rush.
To actually get the Stamina Regen, you need to spend all 65 Stamina and to make full use out of it, you need to attack and watch out to not get hit yourself or get parried.

That's all - those are 3 major buffs to slashing rush which would give Slashing a meaning (except the escape part) and would improve Berserkers synergy to Slashing Rush, while underlining his relentless attack theme.

Thanks of the insight and suggestion,S0Mi_xD! I'd love to hear what other Zerker mains think of the upcoming changes and their thoughts on S0Mi_xD's suggestion as well. The team will certainly be looking to see how the changes effect the Zerker overall and may look to investigate further changes after players have gotten the chance to try play with and figure out the new changes.

S0Mi_xD
02-09-2018, 09:04 PM
These are awesome!

I'm by no means a Zerk expert, however I do agree the Slashing Rush being at a flat 65 stamina cost is silly.

I also agree with people saying that the third unblockable heavy will be near-useless in skilled fights. It should mostly be used for feints, like Kensei pre-rework and Aramusha's 2nd part of his zone. If the opponent is OOS it could make for interesting 50/50 confusions but that's about it.

I think Zerk received better buffs for 4v4s, and remains as-is for duels. The slight edge being, 400ms followup lights after heavy feints. His animations are also overall smoother so he'll feel nicer overall. But otherwise, I fear his rework might become short-handed very soon. Meaning, Zerk users and Zerk mains are going to feel he's still lackluster after some time has passed into season 5.
Mhh - those 65 flat stamina, instantly killing this move in the same moment they made it easier to use :D
Those Berserker changes make him even more Feint dependent = more stamina used - and now Slashing rush having zone cost but without giving Slashing rush any benefits ._.

I mean - i will go with those changes, but it feels more like Berserker got some band aids with the overprint "You are Awesome" You are the BEST" "Everyone loves you", compared to the other two.
Yeah, we will very fast hit the hard cap of the "new" Berserker.


Berserker needs a form of crowd control, either from neutral, or part of his chain.

What do you mean by crowd conrol?
Against player or Minions?

bmason1000
02-09-2018, 10:17 PM
I'm a huge fan of slashing rush. It's a fantastic, fantastic tool. Not anymore haha. At nearly 50% stam drain, I'll do without.

High-Horse
02-09-2018, 10:46 PM
Overall, good changes, but why remove dodge canceling a Light opener? The "flicker" is just the indicator being canceled? I don't get this change, it was a great tool to avoid getting lights parried after a heavy feint, part of the back and forth of figuring out what your opponent was capable of and adapting to that.

Also, I've never seen Skilled Slash given a name or mentioned in the Training videos as a Parry Riposte. The reduction in speed plus the damage reduction on the second Top Heavy Finisher means light parries aren't rewarded with 55 damage. I think the other buffs will make up for this but I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere (said this in another thread just recently).

As always, good observations and suggestions Somi, I agree! Overall, I think Zerker is improved, so maybe they can get more attention after the rest of the OG heroes are addressed.

PDXGorechild
02-09-2018, 10:51 PM
I prefer the sound of S0miís idea to the one Ubisoft has presented for slashing rush. It strikes me as the only thing in the changes thatís blatantly off the mark. All the other changes have to be tried out next week before relevant feedback, but I can say for certain now Iíll very rarely or never use slashing rush.

Very situational, crazy stamina drain = redundant.

Bracus_Maximus
02-09-2018, 11:06 PM
Well we lost our signature oos max punish and 55dmg top heavy. One of the longest top heavy in the game gets only 30dmg. Yes its unblockable now, but the worst case ppl will eat 30 dmg which is very low for a heavy this slow. Its a big nerf for the zerk and i really dont like it. We cant max punish that much anyway because stam dmg is reduced from the forward throw by much, guard breaks wont happen that much after the parry changes so i simply dont understand why was it needed to reduce the dmg drastically. We have how the 3rd heavy buffed to unblockable and to 45 dmg? What? Who can use 3 heavies after each other even in grp fights not to mention 1v1s?
Please guys think about and change it before it goes on. You just took away meaning why ppl had to fear from the zerk. Almost halved the top heavy dmg come on...

High-Horse
02-09-2018, 11:18 PM
Also little disappointed that Zerker didn't get a punch from neutral or some kinda soft feint, but I'm very excited to see it on my first love, Kensei! That Kenny is lookin so seksay in that reveal and those notes.

Vrbas1
02-09-2018, 11:20 PM
Thanks of the insight and suggestion,S0Mi_xD! I'd love to hear what other Zerker mains think of the upcoming changes and their thoughts on S0Mi_xD's suggestion as well. The team will certainly be looking to see how the changes effect the Zerker overall and may look to investigate further changes after players have gotten the chance to try play with and figure out the new changes.

I feel the stamina change is too much. The slashing rush is a retreat tool. If I'm in retreat mode, the last thing I need is blowing all my stamina, ESPECIALLY considering that rarely will all 3 swings of this move connect.

Bracus_Maximus
02-09-2018, 11:27 PM
Yeah but, consider the scenario where your opponent became OOS. You knock them down, you can land two heavies, and activate the unblockable third followup. You may either feint it and bait your opponent, which will then get parried, knocked down, and eats two heavies again for a total of 100+ damage (literally gg), or, you may let it fly for a total of 100+ damage too.

His heavy-hitting potential became more situational, but at least he can now force reactions. This puts him on equal grounds with Raider, I think.

You can still trade with the hyperarmored lights on heavy feints, and it will take more than 1 heavy now to take half your opponent's health. It sounds more logical.

What I personally don't like, are the stamina cost on Slashing Rush, and the fact that outside the OOS situation, the charged unblockable is mostly redundant.

That is the thing. If you trade like you did before with the top heavy you end up in a worse situation. You will eat more dmg what you do and thats not a good trade. The zerk has not much health he needs damage to be able to successfull trade. After this patch you cant trade that means most of the hyper armor is useless. I do get oos max punish was op and they could balance it not to be able to land a side and a top heavy instead of halving the damage of our only good trading hit. We will see but i dont want the zerk to be another aramusha spam char. For me on paper its not that good at the moment.
And if its becoming worse thank we have now we have to wait months for ubi to adjust it if ever...

High-Horse
02-09-2018, 11:29 PM
He's indeed the scariest one to come out of those reworks. He's looking pretty buff and these new moves and mixups will shoot him straight to A-tier.

In the right hands, he'll be a new unstoppable force. Which I absolutely love.

Remember he also still has his dash deflects.
In the right hands, Kensei is already a monster. Now it looks like we'll have a monster based on skill rather than a bloated moveset.

Bracus_Maximus
02-09-2018, 11:31 PM
In the right hands, Kensei is already a monster. Now it looks like we'll have a monster based on skill rather than a bloated moveset.

Yup the kensei buff is awesome. I do like the highlander adjustments too. Too bad i dont like the zerk ones which i waited the most

Bracus_Maximus
02-09-2018, 11:45 PM
Lol yeah, had that feeling too. As Somi also pointed out, people are gonna mostly resort to hyperarmored lights up close. We'll definitely be seeing more lightspam on Zerk.

You think this was made as a direct counter to Aramusha? seeing how Aramusha is very troublesome against reflex guard.

I dont know maybe on consoles. On pc aramusha isnt that scary. He will also be better because the game rewards spam more ( or at least not penalizes it with guardbreak ).
Man i'm really sad about the top heavy nerf :-(

Bracus_Maximus
02-10-2018, 12:02 AM
I've stumbled upon this a while ago (I know it's on Reddit, sorry, but can't find a way to outsource this video)

https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/7wgoaj/this_is_why_top_heavy_got_a_damage_nerf_lol/

When a hero gets a rework, they consider all scenarios and all situations. The above video outlines a clear issue with the buff stacking on Zerk (I've suffered from this as well). It's a one shot from full health.

I mean, the rework might sound sub-par, but it's only because we're used to how Zerk plays for a year. The new Zerk is more logical (save from the two things I don't like that I stated above).

Thats fine. I dont want it to one shot ppl either. Felt bad myself when occasionaly did it. The raw dmg of top heavy made me the berzerker berzerkerish ( the only move which was worth to trade with ) Without it it may become just another hero for me ( i still have to try it for sure ). Remember berzerker still wont have cc or stun like most other heroes. He had this big damage move no other hero had.

bmason1000
02-10-2018, 01:35 AM
Yeah I believe Zerk should have some sort of stun move, unblockable bash from neutral. Like a headbutt or jump kick. Headbutt sounds more fitting, given many of his ornaments, and his head gear. They're head and face armor, with some horns and heavy padding. Would make for good headbutting. Almost as good as Warlord's.
Or a really high damage top heavy.

S0Mi_xD
02-10-2018, 12:07 PM
Overall, good changes, but why remove dodge canceling a Light opener? The "flicker" is just the indicator being canceled? I don't get this change, it was a great tool to avoid getting lights parried after a heavy feint, part of the back and forth of figuring out what your opponent was capable of and adapting to that.

Also, I've never seen Skilled Slash given a name or mentioned in the Training videos as a Parry Riposte. The reduction in speed plus the damage reduction on the second Top Heavy Finisher means light parries aren't rewarded with 55 damage. I think the other buffs will make up for this but I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere (said this in another thread just recently).

As always, good observations and suggestions Somi, I agree! Overall, I think Zerker is improved, so maybe they can get more attention after the rest of the OG heroes are addressed.

Mhh Light parries do get the normal top heavy with 38 dmg (don't know if they change this one as well.
But instead of a 38 top heavy we could go into side heavy into top heavy for 33 dmg and a gamble with the unblockable top heavy.
Those are Potential 63 dmg for a Light parry or 33 dmg + a Light or a Top heavy into Zone.
heavy parries could be a zone or a light into top heavy gamble.
Now Berserker has one of the greatest tools to go into a parry bait after any parry (kind of a parry Vortex :P)

I do not deny that Berserker got a good power up - but it doesn't change the fact that he still have not enough tools for a good mix up game - only the basic faints.

If we could actually chain Slashing rush into the infinite combo, and dodge out of it with dodge cancel to make a fast transition into offense again or to get the stamina buff i suggested to get and with starting to pressure the enemy thanks to the stamina boost.
Also another thing i suggested longer ago, is the ability to chain heavies after the zone and slashing rush.

Berserker is a Hero who should always be in motion - but with slashing rush you are getting out of it and the enemy just waits it out - because he knows you can't do much except burning your stamina - with those changes with keep the pace of the game and give the enemy a reason to maybe interrupt or parry Slashing rush.

If Ubi doesn't want to give berserker new moves, then we need a better synergy between his current abilities and moves.

S0Mi_xD
02-10-2018, 12:21 PM
Also another problem i guess could errupt again.
Now, deflect needs to be done manually (i like this, since i can decide to not GB in a dangerous situation) but since we need to do it ourselfs, there will be a delay - and now have even more fast heroes.
I guess we will have many more interruptions of the deflect now.

S0Mi_xD
02-10-2018, 01:00 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5XLXvXCb_A
Thanks go out to Craic :)

Now we have a great example to see the flaws of the "rework" *cough*.

0:35
So much to "much easier to use Slashing Rush" and those costs ... this ability is DEAD.

1:58
Yeah - like i said, you will now even more eating up all Stamina, because his focus was set to Feint into attacking with a folllow up.

To bad he didn't tried OOS punish with 2 side heavies.

bmason1000
02-10-2018, 07:14 PM
Yeah, I'm back to being disappointed again. This rework is really starting to feel like a nerf. They turned zerk in a light spammer. I get they want to shift the identity to the infinite chain, but with 600ms heavies, its just as useless as it was before abd so is bear mauler. That third heavy could do 500 damage and it wouldn't make a difference.

S0Mi_xD
02-10-2018, 07:25 PM
Yeah, I'm back to being disappointed again. This rework is really starting to feel like a nerf. They turned zerk in a light spammer. I get they want to shift the identity to the infinite chain, but with 600ms heavies, its just as useless as it was before abd so is bear mauler. That third heavy could do 500 damage and it wouldn't make a difference.

I feel you :')
It's just a shift of power.
From raw dmg to weaker unblockables.
Stamina comsumption will be higher in comparison to dmg output.
But we got some small tweaks like hyperarmor starting earlier on forward dash light and side dash lights are now undodgable.
Oh and some property changes on zone to not get punished for light.
Faster lights with hyper armor - but imagine, this attack costs a bunch of stamina.
A Heavy, the feint of a heavy that costs as much stamina as a heavy and the light attack.
The "new" light attack costs us stamina for 2 heavies and a light - sure it is better than befor, befort those changes we got a normal light for a feint but i mean, a feint is a requirement now for the advanced light

Basically Berserker made a 180į turn on the same spot.

bmason1000
02-10-2018, 07:50 PM
I feel you :')
It's just a shift of power.
From raw dmg to weaker unblockables.
Stamina comsumption will be higher in comparison to dmg output.
But we got some small tweaks like hyperarmor starting earlier on forward dash light and side dash lights are now undodgable.
Oh and some property changes on zone to not get punished for light.
Faster lights with hyper armor - but imagine, this attack costs a bunch of stamina.
A Heavy, the feint of a heavy that costs as much stamina as a heavy and the light attack.
The "new" light attack costs us stamina for 2 heavies and a light - sure it is better than befor, befort those changes we got a normal light for a feint but i mean, a feint is a requirement now for the advanced light

Basically Berserker made a 180į turn on the same spot. Yeah the stamina costs are going to be nuts, and the damage output is going to be poor. Honestly, I'm taking a break. I just took a week off from FH and it was nice. I'll come back for s5 to see the changes but i have a feeling I'm finally just done.

Knight_Raime
02-10-2018, 08:01 PM
Maybe it's because i'm not a zerk main but i'm not really seeing why people are having a ton of issues with the update to him.
Like I can understand and agree the stamina consumption overall on him is a big problem now.
But everything else seems fine/makes sense.
Also for clarification. is dodge canceling still a thing now and they only removed it from lights?
or is it gone completely?
Also can someone explain why in the footage we saw of all the reworks that zerkers axes would glow blue when performing dodge attacks?
I only saw the clip. no audio.

High-Horse
02-10-2018, 09:21 PM
It looks like they removed soft canceling neutral lights with a dodge, and you can still do it with a heavy, not sure. Does this mean lights in a chain can be dodge-canceled?

Not sure about the glowing blue during dodge attack. Sounded like he said something about how the kensei can't dodge out of it or something. Can't rewatch it now. I think it was somewhere around 2 hrs or 2.5 hrs into the stream.

Knight_Raime
02-10-2018, 09:45 PM
It looks like they removed soft canceling neutral lights with a dodge, and you can still do it with a heavy, not sure. Does this mean lights in a chain can be dodge-canceled?

Not sure about the glowing blue during dodge attack. Sounded like he said something about how the kensei can't dodge out of it or something. Can't rewatch it now. I think it was somewhere around 2 hrs or 2.5 hrs into the stream.

if it's only gone from neutral lights I don't see the big deal really.
good question.

hm. weird.

S0Mi_xD
02-10-2018, 11:02 PM
Maybe it's because i'm not a zerk main but i'm not really seeing why people are having a ton of issues with the update to him.
Like I can understand and agree the stamina consumption overall on him is a big problem now.
But everything else seems fine/makes sense.
Also for clarification. is dodge canceling still a thing now and they only removed it from lights?
or is it gone completely?
Also can someone explain why in the footage we saw of all the reworks that zerkers axes would glow blue when performing dodge attacks?
I only saw the clip. no audio.

The blue glow means undodgeable - the problem is, there is no much improvement.
Berserkers power Just switched fom raw dmg to unblockable bait game.
He is now pre-rework kensai with more hyperamor but less dmg oh and more stamina problems

bmason1000
02-10-2018, 11:07 PM
if it's only gone from neutral lights I don't see the big deal really.
good question.

hm. weird.
Cancel light attacks to deflect parry attempts. The way you'd feint a heavy to parry their heavy? You're essentially feinting a light to deflect their parry. Verrry strong tool.

Knight_Raime
02-10-2018, 11:36 PM
The blue glow means undodgeable - the problem is, there is no much improvement.
Berserkers power Just switched fom raw dmg to unblockable bait game.
He is now pre-rework kensai with more hyperamor but less dmg oh and more stamina problems

That is a very interesting change conceptually. Though I don't quite understand why. People didn't dodge dodge attacks. they parried them.
Is this perhaps their attempt at punishing people who default to rolling away? and is this only on zerker? or all assassins?
I wonder if it interacts with superior block dodges in anyway.

I think the idea of toning down his damage and increasing stamina cost makes sense for what he's being given. but the exact values atm seem a bit too tilted. at least in the stamina department and top unblockable heavy. Zerks new OOS parry/throw with 2 side heavys and the unblockable side heavy to follow creates a nice mix up.


Cancel light attacks to deflect parry attempts. The way you'd feint a heavy to parry their heavy? You're essentially feinting a light to deflect their parry. Verrry strong tool.

I can see how strong that sounds. But i've personally never seen this used often. So i'm not too convinced it being gone has a huge impact.
btw do you know if you can still dodge cancel lights that are mid chain? or did they remove it for all lights?

bmason1000
02-11-2018, 12:05 AM
Maybe it's because i'm not a zerk main but i'm not really seeing why people are having a ton of issues with the update to him.
Like I can understand and agree the stamina consumption overall on him is a big problem now.
But everything else seems fine/makes sense.
Also for clarification. is dodge canceling still a thing now and they only removed it from lights?
or is it gone completely?
Also can someone explain why in the footage we saw of all the reworks that zerkers axes would glow blue when performing dodge attacks?
I only saw the clip. no audio. Making those two attacks unblockable does next to nothing. Getting to your third heavy is practically impossible, and the top heavy is never blocked anyway. You either know when to use it that it CAN'T be blocked, or it gets parried every single time.

Yes, now it "forces a reaction." Cool. The playstyle this promotes around that top heavy is the way all of us were already playing. Nothing has changed about that. Only now the times we CAN land it, the damage is almost cut in half.

Removing dodge cancels is going to mean more punishes for us. It removed a lot of safety from zerk.

400ms lights after a feint. Cool? You'll land more opening lights, which had their damage nerfed. The following heavy is still 600ms and will almost always be feinted in 1v1 just like now.

400ms chained lights. Similar situation. Sure, you'll land a few more of those and the damage buff balances out the opening nerf i guess, but the following heavy is still 600ms and will be parried just as often. Chain over. For 1v1 purposes, infinite chain isn't improved much at all, honestly.

Damage buffs on the heavy combo. Good luck landing two 600ms attacks in a row. The 3rd one? 800ms. Unblockable, great. Damage buff, great. No one was blocking it anyway, just like the top heavy. "Forces a reaction" now. So we can feint it 100% of the time and never see that damage.

Slashing rush. TREMENDOUS stamina drain. Slashing rush was an incredible attack that was incredibly under utilised. Not worth it anymore. What good is some breathing room and landing 9 damage if I'm oos? Which with all the feinting thats going on, stamina management is an uphill battle already.

Hyper armor after a feint. That's actually pretty great, that's going to open up some reallll potential. This might be the saving grace, but i won't be surprised if it's only a neat trick instead. Here's hoping.

Earlier hyper armor on head slicer. This is a good thing.

Deflect requires gb input. If the gb is still guaranteed, this is a buff. Having a choice is great.

Zone attack changes are good. Acts as a heavy for parry purposes. Hallelujah.

Lets sum this up if we can.

Small quality of life changes are pretty excellent. Buffing bear mauler combo does nothing. Increased hyper armor buffs ability to trade, but we've nerfed damage on the hits you trade.

Essentially what we've done is remove some safety and uniqueness and turn zerk in to another light spamming assassin. 1v1 competitively viability IS increased, because you can turtle up and throw out 400ms lights now. You'll land more hits now that do less damage. Viability increased, playstyle changed slightly (but for some players, removed completely.). This rework is boring, that's the big issue. Zerk is marginally more viable and far less interesting, because their interesting aspects all got nerfed or literally removed.

bmason1000
02-11-2018, 12:08 AM
I can see how strong that sounds. But i've personally never seen this used often. So i'm not too convinced it being gone has a huge impact.
btw do you know if you can still dodge cancel lights that are mid chain? or did they remove it for all lights?
No its not "huge," but it is a unique tool that is gone now.

As for the mid chain cancels, honesty I've never gotten that to actually work. Not once. Works on whiffed heavies though, which is very good.

High-Horse
02-11-2018, 12:11 AM
if it's only gone from neutral lights I don't see the big deal really.
good question.

hm. weird.

it's a pretty big deal imo, losing a good tool. I just had an intense game where this dude is parrying everything, especially the light after a heavy feint. So I start canceling the light after a heavy feint with a dodge and spin chop during his heavy. He starts to parry the spin chop so I throw a heavy out from the dodge cancel. He starts to GB my dodge so I got back to spin chopping and baiting his parry for a deflect or a parry of my own.

Without it, those lights after a heavy feint get parried. Maybe at 400ms it will be a lot harder, but this dude could have parried every zone from a PK. It's two steps forward and one step back imo. Sounds like the easiest way to solve some technical issues, so I can't really argue.

edit: I guess it's pretty situational, but still comes in handy nowadays. Maybe they could leave it in but exclude the sped up feint followups.

S0Mi_xD
02-11-2018, 03:08 AM
That is a very interesting change conceptually. Though I don't quite understand why. People didn't dodge dodge attacks. they parried them.
Is this perhaps their attempt at punishing people who default to rolling away? and is this only on zerker? or all assassins?
I wonder if it interacts with superior block dodges in anyway.

I think the idea of toning down his damage and increasing stamina cost makes sense for what he's being given. but the exact values atm seem a bit too tilted. at least in the stamina department and top unblockable heavy. Zerks new OOS parry/throw with 2 side heavys and the unblockable side heavy to follow creates a nice mix up.



I can see how strong that sounds. But i've personally never seen this used often. So i'm not too convinced it being gone has a huge impact.
btw do you know if you can still dodge cancel lights that are mid chain? or did they remove it for all lights?
The undodgeable will be very siutational. As far as understood Orochi gets it as well.

Mid chain light where never dodge cancelable.
Only neutral light, heavies and infinity chain heavies (not bear mauler) where dodge cancelable.
Now only neutral heavies are cancel able.
The big problem with removing id from mid chain infinity heavies is stamina - dodge cancel uses no stamina and at the same time gives the chance to deflect a parry attempt like bmason said.
Also after a dodge cancel you go faster into stamina regen because it doesn't use stamina.


No its not "huge," but it is a unique tool that is gone now.

As for the mid chain cancels, honesty I've never gotten that to actually work. Not once. Works on whiffed heavies though, which is very good.
I used it to spare the stamina i would use to feint mid chain heavies. Now this is gone.
Also catching parry attmepts with a deflect like you said.