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CandleInTheDark
01-21-2018, 01:10 PM
So I have read a lot of posts on here and reddit over hp and how the assassins are too close to the rest of the classes and should have their dropped to somewhere around pre-buff shinobi levels.

I kind of agree with half of this and disagree with the other. Yes I think that the hp pools are kind of close,I do think the gap could do with being widened.

But.

As someone who played shinobi pre hp buff, while I liked that with the shinobi you had to be more careful I do not think that the answer is putting the hp pools of the assassins down there, it will make battles end a fair bit quicker and some assassins have to work harder to get damage to others, I think it would unfairly impact on the likes of orochi, berserker, I kind of want to say none spammy peacekeepers to have them killable in two punishes.

What I would do is a global hp buff weighted on the class based on the average top damage on a heavy. I would add every character's most damaging heavy, divide it by 18 (number of characters), I have no idea where that would come out, so let's pull a figure out of the air and say 30. That's step one.

Step two is to weight it, so assassins, I would give them half the average, 15 using the number I am working with, vanguards I would give either that average number or 1.5 so 30-45, heavies I would give two or three times the average so 60-90. Hybrids are more difficult, I think there you need to either average the hp gain of their two classes (eg valkyrie is assassin/heavy, 15 and 90 is 105, halved is 52 rounded off or if they want to keep it to the closest 5 55 (given the initial average was 52.5)) or the more dominant part of that mixup (eg I would say valkyrie is more assassin than heavy, so 15). I would say the average is fairer given that where it will mean higher or less hp to that level it can be a contentious decision.

That might need refining further, 60-90 is perhaps a little much, at the same time I think it widens the gap without making it so that two max punishes will end the fight.

Alustar.
01-21-2018, 02:10 PM
If they do tweak health pool I love this idea. Part of me feels the only reason some posters want assassin health to be at the bar shinobi set is so they can wreck through them easier without having to worry much.

There is a lot of assassin hate, that I've seen and this seems to be borne of that.

Tyrjo
01-21-2018, 06:13 PM
I've said this all along. Back in the days when the Gladiator was revealed I was stunned by his kit. I felt, how does he pay for this? 100HP? Sadly no. Only 5 less than the Highlander....

The same goes for Shaman, she would be a lot more balanced at 100HP. I almost feel ashamed when I play her actually, I can tank a hit or two, or three, doesn't matter. My damage output and mixups win in the end anyways.

CandleInTheDark
01-21-2018, 06:24 PM
If they do tweak health pool I love this idea. Part of me feels the only reason some posters want assassin health to be at the bar shinobi set is so they can wreck through them easier without having to worry much.

There is a lot of assassin hate, that I've seen and this seems to be borne of that.

That might well be part of it, yeah. I do think it is a little close to other classes, one or two lights in some cases, but for the og assassins that would be too big a nerf to drop them that far.


I've said this all along. Back in the days when the Gladiator was revealed I was stunned by his kit. I felt, how does he pay for this? 100HP? Sadly no. Only 5 less than the Highlander....

The same goes for Shaman, she would be a lot more balanced at 100HP. I almost feel ashamed when I play her actually, I can tank a hit or two, or three, doesn't matter. My damage output and mixups win in the end anyways.

Yeah that is why I would give everyone a hp buff but a larger buff for vanguards, heavies and hybrids (varying depending on the mix of classes in the case of hybrid) than for assassins. I feel you can't take them down any more, the way people complained about shinobi showed that (eh I found it ok but I was in the minority) and certainly for the og assassins their current kit doesn't justify losing near or more than half health after one mistake, but if they do it the way I proposed, the gap between hp widens a fair chunk.

Alustar.
01-21-2018, 07:16 PM
I have and always will be a proponent of buffing over nerfing. With the current meta that the dlc heroes have brought to the table 4v4 and likely duels would be horribly one sided. Heroes like highlander/Centurion/aramusha need a buff to their hp. And probably the vanilla heroes as well when you account for reworks. I how they consider this. I do think a rework to health old could stabilize the balance more than trying to balance is and attack values.

UbiInsulin
01-21-2018, 07:54 PM
It's difficult to speculate too much on this with the first reworks on the horizon, but thanks a lot for the thoughtful post Candle. I'll make sure to note this thread for the team. :)

CandleInTheDark
01-22-2018, 12:33 AM
It's difficult to speculate too much on this with the first reworks on the horizon, but thanks a lot for the thoughtful post Candle. I'll make sure to note this thread for the team. :)

Thanks, I do appreciate that reworks might change a whole bunch, it is just something I have seen raised and been mulling over what would I do about it for a while.

MADMAN_SLADE
01-22-2018, 05:07 AM
I definitely have to agree. It feels like the only thing that makes "Heavies" actually "Heavies" is their defensive capabilities. I personally think there needs to be a massive HP gap, however the higher a characters HP the slower their movement speed would be(an exception or two would be someone like Raider, him being fairly agile). To me that would help balance things out.

bob333e
01-22-2018, 01:58 PM
How about dynamic HP allocation based on hero class, hero specifics (armor, defense etc), and tier bracket?

Tier brackets:
- Common tier: unrepped - rep1
- Rare tier: rep1 - rep3
- Heroic tier: rep3 - rep5
- Epic tier: rep5 - rep7
- Legendary tier: rep8+

Assassins are in the pool of 100-125 HP.

- Orochi: when unrepped (common tier), the HP is 100. At rare tier it's 105, at heroic tier 110, at epic 115 and at legendary (rep8 onwards) 125HP.
- Shinobi: common tier 100HP, rare tier 105, heroic tier still 105, epic tier still 105, legendary tier 110HP.
- Shaman: common tier 100HP, rare tier 105, heroic tier still 105, epic tier still 105, legendary tier 110HP.
- Berserker: common tier 100HP, rare tier 105, heroic tier 110, epic tier 115, legendary tier 120HP.
- Peacekeeper: common tier 100HP, rare tier 105, heroic tier still 105, epic tier 110, legendary tier 115HP.
- Gladiator: common tier 100HP, rare tier 105, heroic tier 110, epic tier 115, legendary tier 120HP.

Vanguards are in the pool of 130-165 HP.

- Warden: when unrepped (common) HP is 130, at rare 135, at heroic 145, at epic 155, at legendary 165HP.
- Raider: common tier 130HP, rare tier 135, heroic tier 140, epic tier 145, legendary tier 155HP.
- Kensei: common tier 130HP, rare tier 135, heroic tier 140, epic tier 145, legendary tier 150HP.

Heavies are in the pool of 160-185HP.

- Warlord: when unrepped (common) HP is 160, at rare still 160, at heroic 165, at epic 170, at legendary 175HP.
- Conqueror: common tier 160HP, rare tier still 160, heroic still 160, epic 165, legendary 165HP.
- Shugoki: common tier 160HP, rare tier 165, heroic 175, epic 180, legendary 185HP.

Hybrids are in a wider range, 130-170HP.

- Lawbringer: when unrepped (common) HP is 130, at rare 140, at heroic 150, at epic 160, at legendary 170HP.
- Highlander: common tier 130HP, rare tier 135, heroic 145, epic 150, legendary 160HP.
- Centurion: common tier 130HP, rare tier still 130, heroic tier 140, epic tier 145, legendary tier 150HP.
- Aramusha: common tier 130HP, rare tier still 130, heroic tier 135, epic tier still 135, legendary tier 140HP.
- Valkyrie: common tier 130HP, rare tier still 130, heroic tier 135, epic tier 140, legendary tier 145HP.
- Nobushi: common tier 130HP, rare tier still 130, heroic tier 135, epic tier still 135, legendary tier 140HP.

Knight_Raime
01-22-2018, 04:48 PM
I think changing HP values would be incredibly tricky due to the varrying level of punishes possible with each hero.
I certainly wouldn't mind longer duels. So long as damage delt was still appropriate punishes wise. and heros themselves didn't have the ability to make them exponentially longer.
I say we should wait and see how parry changes play out before messing with HP values.

BTTrinity
01-22-2018, 06:04 PM
How about dynamic HP allocation based on hero class, hero specifics (armor, defense etc), and tier bracket?

Tier brackets:
- Common tier: unrepped - rep1
- Rare tier: rep1 - rep3
- Heroic tier: rep3 - rep5
- Epic tier: rep5 - rep7
- Legendary tier: rep8+

Assassins are in the pool of 100-125 HP.

- Orochi: when unrepped (common tier), the HP is 100. At rare tier it's 105, at heroic tier 110, at epic 115 and at legendary (rep8 onwards) 125HP.
- Shinobi: common tier 100HP, rare tier 105, heroic tier still 105, epic tier still 105, legendary tier 110HP.
- Shaman: common tier 100HP, rare tier 105, heroic tier still 105, epic tier still 105, legendary tier 110HP.
- Berserker: common tier 100HP, rare tier 105, heroic tier 110, epic tier 115, legendary tier 120HP.
- Peacekeeper: common tier 100HP, rare tier 105, heroic tier still 105, epic tier 110, legendary tier 115HP.
- Gladiator: common tier 100HP, rare tier 105, heroic tier 110, epic tier 115, legendary tier 120HP.

Vanguards are in the pool of 130-165 HP.

- Warden: when unrepped (common) HP is 130, at rare 135, at heroic 145, at epic 155, at legendary 165HP.
- Raider: common tier 130HP, rare tier 135, heroic tier 140, epic tier 145, legendary tier 155HP.
- Kensei: common tier 130HP, rare tier 135, heroic tier 140, epic tier 145, legendary tier 150HP.

Heavies are in the pool of 160-185HP.

- Warlord: when unrepped (common) HP is 160, at rare still 160, at heroic 165, at epic 170, at legendary 175HP.
- Conqueror: common tier 160HP, rare tier still 160, heroic still 160, epic 165, legendary 165HP.
- Shugoki: common tier 160HP, rare tier 165, heroic 175, epic 180, legendary 185HP.

Hybrids are in a wider range, 130-170HP.

- Lawbringer: when unrepped (common) HP is 130, at rare 140, at heroic 150, at epic 160, at legendary 170HP.
- Highlander: common tier 130HP, rare tier 135, heroic 145, epic 150, legendary 160HP.
- Centurion: common tier 130HP, rare tier still 130, heroic tier 140, epic tier 145, legendary tier 150HP.
- Aramusha: common tier 130HP, rare tier still 130, heroic tier 135, epic tier still 135, legendary tier 140HP.
- Valkyrie: common tier 130HP, rare tier still 130, heroic tier 135, epic tier 140, legendary tier 145HP.
- Nobushi: common tier 130HP, rare tier still 130, heroic tier 135, epic tier still 135, legendary tier 140HP.

I dont agree with making characters stronger as they level up in a game like this, as that makes it unfriendly to new players. Same goes for gear which id also like removed, new players already have a hard enough time getting into the game as it is, mainly due to DLC heroes completely outshining OG, gear stats +20% more dmg and defense make it far worse.

bob333e
01-22-2018, 06:22 PM
I dont agree with making characters stronger as they level up in a game like this, as that makes it unfriendly to new players. Same goes for gear which id also like removed, new players already have a hard enough time getting into the game as it is, mainly due to DLC heroes completely outshining OG, gear stats +20% more dmg and defense make it far worse.

It makes sense leveling-wise, in almost every other game where character customization is present, as you level up you also level up HP, stamina, Mana, etc. It gives a better reward and a better incentive to leveling up other than unlocking patterns and colors and engravings. And the differences overall do not amount to that much; a legendary-tier Orochi at 125HP can tank like 2 more lights than a common-tier Orochi at 100HP. That's pretty much it. The higher-leveled Orochi at least has something character-centric that differentiates his character from a common-tier one, other than how his sword looks or what ornament or engraving he has.

I agree, however, about the gear stats needing tweaking. The pure damage builds and pure Revenge builds are ridiculous at 180 gear stat. Especially on some heroes who also have damage buff feats.

This is also the matchmaker's fault to a fair degree. The matchmaker shouldn't match common-tier people against 180 gear people. It is unfair to new players.

BTTrinity
01-22-2018, 06:27 PM
It makes sense leveling-wise, in almost every other game where character customization is present, as you level up you also level up HP, stamina, Mana, etc. It gives a better reward and a better incentive to leveling up other than unlocking patterns and colors and engravings. And the differences overall do not amount to that much; a legendary-tier Orochi at 125HP can tank like 2 more lights than a common-tier Orochi at 100HP. That's pretty much it. The higher-leveled Orochi at least has something character-centric that differentiates his character from a common-tier one, other than how his sword looks or what ornament or engraving he has.

I agree, however, about the gear stats needing tweaking. The pure damage builds and pure Revenge builds are ridiculous at 180 gear stat. Especially on some heroes who also have damage buff feats.

Those are MMO's that do that, For honor is a fighting game. Other fighting games also have character customization without stupid gear stats and level advantages, et cet, with damn good reason too. How would you feel, as the new Orochi player finding out you have 25 less health than the guy whos rep 8 simply because you put less time into the game?

Theres a reason every other fighting game doesnt have these stats and levels, which is along the lines of the reason those fighting games are competitive and this one isnt. The gear stat differences, if they're gonna exist should be... no higher than rep 8 having 5% more attack than a rep 1.

BTTrinity
01-22-2018, 06:32 PM
The satisfaction and progression I want in this game: Finding out how to counter the Shaman so I dont feel so powerless when I fight them.

The satisfaction and progression that doesnt belong in this game: My Nobushi goes from killing you in 3 hits, to 2 hits and being able to take an extra hit while shes at it.

PDXGorechild
01-22-2018, 06:35 PM
I don't mind HP but prefer Daddies sauce.

bob333e
01-22-2018, 06:37 PM
Those are MMO's that do that, For honor is a fighting game. Other fighting games also have character customization without stupid gear stats and level advantages, et cet, with damn good reason too. How would you feel, as the new Orochi player finding out you have 25 less health than the guy whos rep 8 simply because you put less time into the game?

Theres a reason every other fighting game doesnt have these stats and levels, which is along the lines of the reason those fighting games are competitive and this one isnt. The gear stat differences, if they're gonna exist should be... no higher than rep 8 having 5% more attack than a rep 1.

I was thinking more along the lines of Dark Souls, Elder Scrolls, etc.

For Honor is indeed a fighting game but I just can't bring myself to compare it to today's fighting game trend (SF, Tekken, MK, etc). Those are wildly different from For Honor (and btw, in Soul Calibur, you may choose to fight with or without weapon effects / skills, which are gained as you level up).

For Honor bears a character customization akin to the RPG genre, not the fighting game genre. Besides as it is, HP distribution across the board is already unfair. Centurion has assassin health, and Shugoki without his hyperarmor has a rather crap HP pool unfit for a 'heavy'. These are mere examples.

Raime pointed out something interesting. Punishes vary between heroes, and this is where it tends to get problematic. It's not that someone else has 25 more HP; it's how much damage I, as hero A, can deal to hero B with a punish; and whether hero B can deal double my punish or not. Even if we both had 125HP, if his punish is double mine, my HP pool is already less than his.

This could use a bit more collective thought. But I like where this discussion is headed.

BTTrinity
01-22-2018, 06:57 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of Dark Souls, Elder Scrolls, etc.

Fair enough, but you gotta keep in mind those games like DS, ESO have a bigger playerbase and can afford to prevent those who are higher level from playing with those who are a lower level. I dont think For honor can support something like that right now.


For Honor is indeed a fighting game but I just can't bring myself to compare it to today's fighting game trend (SF, Tekken, MK, etc). Those are wildly different from For Honor (and btw, in Soul Calibur, you may choose to fight with or without weapon effects / skills, which are gained as you level up).

I cant really speak that much for Soul Calibur, never touched it... But For Honor holds the basic principles of the fighting games I've played (Marvel v Capcom, Tekken) while the gameplay is VERY different, its still the same concept from a different view, and with a different style. In For Honor you still have do deal with everything a traditional fighter has. Whether or not its easier to deal with is a different story, but not the discussion im looking for.


For Honor bears a character customization akin to the RPG genre, not the fighting game genre. Besides as it is, HP distribution across the board is already unfair. Centurion has assassin health, and Shugoki without his hyperarmor has a rather crap HP pool unfit for a 'heavy'. These are mere examples.

I mean, if For Honor got rid of the gear stats it wouldnt be like an MMO in any way (Not one that I can think of) But I can agree with the HP part, it is incredibly unbalanced. People like Shaman should have Shinobis health, while people like Highlander should have Conq/Warlord health


Raime pointed out something interesting. Punishes vary between heroes, and this is where it tends to get problematic. It's not that someone else has 25 more HP; it's how much damage I, as hero A, can deal to hero B with a punish; and whether hero B can deal double my punish or not. Even if we both had 125HP, if his punish is double mine, my HP pool is already less than his.

Another thing thats very important to consider, and these problems only become harder to deal with when you have level advantages. Until the day For Honor can support locking lower rep characters to fighting lower rep characters, and high reps fighting against high reps, Ill disagree with level and gear stat advantages.


This could use a bit more collective thought. But I like where this discussion is headed.

Lol me too, I normally dont participate in game forums but I love FH (And want to love it MOAR)

bob333e
01-22-2018, 07:08 PM
Most of all, thank you for being civil and constructive; it's more than can be said for most users who roam these forums. I only enjoy chatting on here when people remain equally courteous.

You are right. For want of a bigger playerbase, For Honor cannot afford completely splitting low-levels from high-levels. Here's hoping with the coming of dedicated servers and reworks, more people will join For Honor. And I hope the old players who left will come back. And by then, HP differentiations, as well as gear stats, will be a lot more fair.

I agree that gear stats is a stupid thing to have, at this given intensity anyway. It should be heavily toned down. I get that it's to differentiate duels and brawls from 4v4s, but I mean, they become huge crutches in 4v4s and those people will no longer want to play without their precious stats and feats. It's a looping rabbit hole.

It's also my very first forum where I'm actively taking part in discussions. It is discussions like this that encourage me to stick around.

And yeah, For Honor is a new drug. And I absolutely love it.

BTTrinity
01-22-2018, 07:21 PM
Most of all, thank you for being civil and constructive; it's more than can be said for most users who roam these forums. I only enjoy chatting on here when people remain equally courteous.

You are right. For want of a bigger playerbase, For Honor cannot afford completely splitting low-levels from high-levels. Here's hoping with the coming of dedicated servers and reworks, more people will join For Honor. And I hope the old players who left will come back. And by then, HP differentiations, as well as gear stats, will be a lot more fair.

I agree that gear stats is a stupid thing to have, at this given intensity anyway. It should be heavily toned down. I get that it's to differentiate duels and brawls from 4v4s, but I mean, they become huge crutches in 4v4s and those people will no longer want to play without their precious stats and feats. It's a looping rabbit hole.

It's also my very first forum where I'm actively taking part in discussions. It is discussions like this that encourage me to stick around.

And yeah, For Honor is a new drug. And I absolutely love it.

You too my friend! I've tried on the Overwatch forums (Not sure if you play) given Mercy's recent state, no matter how constructive, passive, and courteous you are, you will always be insulted, downvoted, and shamed for your opinion. Ive never once found a decent conversation from there like this one xD

Anyway, lets hope Ubi sees this and agrees to making the game more "Noob friendly" in these aspects. This games learning curve is definitely a lot longer than most games.

bob333e
01-22-2018, 07:32 PM
You too my friend! I've tried on the Overwatch forums (Not sure if you play) given Mercy's recent state, no matter how constructive, passive, and courteous you are, you will always be insulted, downvoted, and shamed for your opinion. Ive never once found a decent conversation from there like this one xD

Anyway, lets hope Ubi sees this and agrees to making the game more "Noob friendly" in these aspects. This games learning curve is definitely a lot longer than most games.

Nah I completely avoided Overwatch... I tried it once at a friend's, picked Reinhardt and bumped my way throughout the map (it was hilarious). But then got me bored real quick. That was way back, too, before even Doomfist came out. Just not my cup of tea.

Kudos to you for retaining your personal values and ethics and not turning into one of those jerks just so you can bombard them back with equally appalling insults. It says much about your character. I'm the one honored to be chatting with you on here, comrade.

I like the steep, hard learning curve of For Honor (I also would like level 4 bots even, lol). It really fits the game. I think, one major issue is the 'tutorial' once you start the game for the first time. It prepares you for nothing. Literally nothing. And much of Story Mode doesn't apply in multiplayer.

I, too, am hoping we can hopefully draw more interest on this topic from Ubisoft; and that HP allocations get heavily revised (possibly even during the character reworks).