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LordRockinghamm
01-17-2018, 01:48 AM
A lot of people like to justify controversial characters/character abilities on these forums based off of the opinions of 'high level' players. As in, high level players say this cheesey tactic is easy to counter and avoid. Just get good etc etc.

Well. I'm not a 'high level' player. At overall rep 50 ive certainly put my fair share of time into the game. I'd say im right about in the middle of the skill spectrum, i dish it out some days and take it others. But it seems silly to me to justify things like raider tap, shoulderbash, pk zone spam etc as always easy to counter because 'high level' players, aka people who have put staggering amounts of time into the game, think so.

Most of us are not high level players and we are the ones who suffer from the snotty attitudes and disrespect of the cheesers. Its cool to make adjustments based on high level gameplay but dont forget the common man who still gets owned by the 'c tier' orochi on the daily.

ChampionRuby50g
01-17-2018, 02:02 AM
A lot of people like to justify controversial characters/character abilities on these forums based off of the opinions of 'high level' players. As in, high level players say this cheesey tactic is easy to counter and avoid. Just get good etc etc.

Well. I'm not a 'high level' player. At overall rep 50 ive certainly put my fair share of time into the game. I'd say im right about in the middle of the skill spectrum, i dish it out some days and take it others. But it seems silly to me to justify things like raider tap, shoulderbash, pk zone spam etc as always easy to counter because 'high level' players, aka people who have put staggering amounts of time into the game, think so.

Most of us are not high level players and we are the ones who suffer from the snotty attitudes and disrespect of the cheesers. Its cool to make adjustments based on high level gameplay but dont forget the common man who still gets owned by the 'c tier' orochi on the daily.

PK Zone Spam always comes from the exact same direction. That does make it fairly easy to counter as you should know, if the PK is spamming zone, to keep your guard in that direction. Yeah maybe Iíve put in a lot of hours into the game, but itís not rocket science to know to block in a certain direction if the opposing player is spamming the same move over and over again. The Zone by itself, perhaps not as easy to counter but if it truly is spam, then itís marginally better.

Shoulder bash spam is hard to deal with, but not impossible. Any 500ms attack, which a lot of the cast has, can knock Warden out of the SB. Itís not ideal but rolling out of it works. Iím not saying that we donít forget about the common man, but a lot of the issues that are brought up can simply be countered with advice that is given by higher level plays. Granted it can be a bit blunt and to the point, but thatís because the solution is really blunt to the point. A lot of ďmid-low levelĒ players refuse to accept advice or accept that it may be them where the issue is, not the game.

RiceComboA
01-17-2018, 07:13 PM
Wait till they implement the new training/practice mode. They mentioned we could set the bot to repeat the moves you want them to do, which should help people who are still willing to "Learn to play".

I, like most people I'm sure, no longer have friends who are willing to put up with this game to help with training and timing to avoid certain moves.

I'm also really hoping they let you program the bots to do multiple combination of moves, rather than just picking one and having it repeat (Still better than nothing). Example: Raider zone into stunning tap. Shaman combo, soft feint into bleed, ETC.

Alustar.
01-17-2018, 08:04 PM
A lot of people like to justify controversial characters/character abilities on these forums based off of the opinions of 'high level' players. As in, high level players say this cheesey tactic is easy to counter and avoid. Just get good etc etc.

Well. I'm not a 'high level' player. At overall rep 50 ive certainly put my fair share of time into the game. I'd say im right about in the middle of the skill spectrum, i dish it out some days and take it others. But it seems silly to me to justify things like raider tap, shoulderbash, pk zone spam etc as always easy to counter because 'high level' players, aka people who have put staggering amounts of time into the game, think so.

Most of us are not high level players and we are the ones who suffer from the snotty attitudes and disrespect of the cheesers. Its cool to make adjustments based on high level gameplay but dont forget the common man who still gets owned by the 'c tier' orochi on the daily.

Maneuvers that follow the same rules/patterns repeatedly with no change or variation aren't something I would classify as indicative of high skilled play. Those I would classify as basics of combat. I.E. an attack, that whether fast, unblockable, uninterruptible, or provides a CC, comes from the same aside every time is not only predictable, but greatly punishable.
What separates high skilled play is your ability to adapt and react to combat in excess of 500ms at a time. The quicker you can assess and respond the more effectively you move through opponents.
What you are talking about is having basic operator issues with recognizing basic moves within a kit, and they all revolve around either quick attacks, crowd control, or a mix of both.
Trust me, I understand the frustration of it all, but it's not like you have to be a pro to counter any of the things listed in this post.

AlexHuaTian
01-17-2018, 08:16 PM
Maybe introduce level 5 bots and bots that turtle so they resemble real players. Im sure they can do that. The programmers are likely talented enough to produce a bot that would pass as a real human player with real human tendencies.

Alustar.
01-17-2018, 08:37 PM
Maybe introduce level 5 bots and bots that turtle so they resemble real players. Im sure they can do that. The programmers are likely talented enough to produce a bot that would pass as a real human player with real human tendencies.

Judging by how they taunt, I'm extremely inclined to believe this.

LordRockinghamm
01-17-2018, 11:37 PM
Maneuvers that follow the same rules/patterns repeatedly with no change or variation aren't something I would classify as indicative of high skilled play. Those I would classify as basics of combat. I.E. an attack, that whether fast, unblockable, uninterruptible, or provides a CC, comes from the same aside every time is not only predictable, but greatly punishable.
What separates high skilled play is your ability to adapt and react to combat in excess of 500ms at a time. The quicker you can assess and respond the more effectively you move through opponents.
What you are talking about is having basic operator issues with recognizing basic moves within a kit, and they all revolve around either quick attacks, crowd control, or a mix of both.
Trust me, I understand the frustration of it all, but it's not like you have to be a pro to counter any of the things listed in this post.
Its not a matter of knowing whats coming or being able to predict what my opponent is going to do. Believe me i know how a raider or a warden is going to play. Despite the fact that everyone knows what these characters are going to do it can still be difficult to counter. All it takes is persistence. If a raider wants to gb spam til hell freezes over hes eventually going to get one through, then youre against a wall with no stamina getting zoned, theres a third or more of your health bar gone. I know how every orochi is going to play but persistent spam ultimately brings them victory through the shear fact of their damage output.

Everyone says the musha buff is necessary and that its not an issue for 'high level' players to counter him. Again, the vast majority of players arent high level. Musha can swing so fast for so long that even if i block/parry half his attacks i still get destroyed by the rest of the barrage that happens so fast i cant move my thumb fast enough to even try to block it all. And im not alone there im sure.

UbiJurassic
01-18-2018, 01:55 AM
A lot of people like to justify controversial characters/character abilities on these forums based off of the opinions of 'high level' players. As in, high level players say this cheesey tactic is easy to counter and avoid. Just get good etc etc.

Well. I'm not a 'high level' player. At overall rep 50 ive certainly put my fair share of time into the game. I'd say im right about in the middle of the skill spectrum, i dish it out some days and take it others. But it seems silly to me to justify things like raider tap, shoulderbash, pk zone spam etc as always easy to counter because 'high level' players, aka people who have put staggering amounts of time into the game, think so.

Most of us are not high level players and we are the ones who suffer from the snotty attitudes and disrespect of the cheesers. Its cool to make adjustments based on high level gameplay but dont forget the common man who still gets owned by the 'c tier' orochi on the daily.

While the feedback of high level players certainly is important to the team, I'll remind you that two of the three examples you've given (Raider Tap, PK Zone, Warden SB) have been nerfed at one time or another. We certainly recognize that some of these moves can lead to a great amount of frustration for players and have always made sure that feedback has been brought up. In response to that feedback, PK's zone has been nerfed on a number of occasions, as well as Warden's Shoulder Bash. Raider's Stunning Tap though is something I'm not aware that many player's have brought up as an issue. For the Raider, we tend to hear more talk about his Stampede Change.

NHLGoldenKnight
01-18-2018, 05:21 AM
And yet you have decided to proceed with Aramusha nerf. Sometimes I really struggle to understand your decision making process. It just doesn't make any sense.

Bread and butter of your game are 4v4 modes and low to mid level players. Not high level 1v1 tournaments. But you still decided to buff the Aramusha because of small high level player population which in return will result in even more players picking Aramusha so they could feel good about themselves. Basically, you are directly supporting try-hard mentality with your decisions.

As a casual gamer and busy 30+ guy, I find it extremely hard to invest so much time to be able to actually move towards high level play. Which means that I am forever gonna be a target for every other mid tier player who has decided to abuse Aramusha to the max. And there is nothing I can do about it.

On the other end, Conq was not obviously important, and yes I know that rework is coming. But it is not an excuse for not improving him during last 6 months, at least not in any significant sense.
Highlander, Kensei, even Valkyrie are not that impressive at all. And please tell me, how many season more will Warden stay unchanged with least number of moves in the game? You can't even scroll down, that is how bad it is.

And yet, you have enough time to "fix" Aramusha.

Once again, I am extremely disappointed with your logic and implementation of ideas.

With all due respect

Devils-_-legacy
01-18-2018, 01:50 PM
I'm normally happy when a mod responds but there's multiple threads on the raider stunning tap (when you know how to counter it deflect/parry not a issue but when your in dominion and your the only person on your team not falling for the 50/50 it can be a issue plus the high stamina damage+ stun does seem to catch out a lot of people)

PDXGorechild
01-18-2018, 02:16 PM
I don't think i've ever actually been hit by wardens shoulder bash...

Devils-_-legacy
01-18-2018, 02:18 PM
I think it was way worse in season 1 2 wardens just sb you to death now I don't really see it plus a well timed doge gives you a gb

Knight_Raime
01-18-2018, 03:00 PM
There is a lot of factors involved with that statement and balancing in general.

For the statement we're not "justifying" something that is emperically a balance problem. We bring it up as a counter because people on the forums often stretch a statement to make something sound way worse than it is. Basically most of the time I use that kind of response is if I see a post that says something like " x move is unreactable."

Secondly yes. Not everyone is high level. But that doesn't mean the statement on what high levels are capable of any less valid. The best balance is done from top down in skill level. Top tier players break your game. They show you exactly what is possible given enough time/effort put forward using a particular thing. This is good. Because if something seems fine at the low level but is super strong at the high level it shows imbalance. But if vise versa is the case it usually shows some sort of balance.

What I mean in example form. Take orochi's double light top attack. In the lowest bracket of skill it murders. In the tier below medium it's still murdering. But in medium tier it begins to even out. and in high tier it doesn't murder. it under performs. This would seem to imply that the better a player gets The more easier it is to deal with. Which is good. That is typically how you want things. And if anything is amazing in high skill tiers it has to be balanced by being hard to accomplish.

As if it was easy to use and do in all tiers it's clearly unbalanced. Devs should and do look at all tiers of play. The very simple reason why spam or certain moves people don't take issue with are not being nerfed real hard if at all is because their data shows it's not an actual problem in a wide scope of things. and/or the suggestion on how to address it wouldn't actually address the perceived problem in a healthy way.

I know it's frustrating if someone like mushu is destroying bottom tier. It's not fun to be on the receiving end. But as harsh as it sounds that's not the games problem. The player has to take some responsibility. If we made things easier for low ish tier players then the skill gap of the game becomes even shorter. Thus invalidating a players time invested in getting better. Shorter skill gap also means less depth to the game. Which also in turn means a lower skill celling. Which was the problem with base for honor. People wanted a wider gap between decent players and good players. and people wanted a higher skill ceiling. This is of course going to make things harder on the worse players. But again. that's not really the games responsibility. Fighting games are in general designed to foster a competitive nature. Making the game easier overall doesn't do that.

Okita_Soji..
01-18-2018, 03:22 PM
That's all true but how do we get players just starting out or during a free weekend to stay and want to learn how to get better if they get stomped by what they would call spam moves. For me if I am facing someone I try plan "A" if it works I stay with that then move to plan "B" and "C." So sure it could look spammy but they didn't stop it so why change. After the match if they were struggling I will message them to give them tips. The game is great fun but can be frustrating as no one wants to loose and when matchmaking is iffy sometimes low level players rant about how bad this game is. I read a lot of comments that get taken the wrong way and people get quite upset and way off topic. The "get good" never helps just makes people more upset. There are some on here that are very helpful some not so much. It would be nice if people were more civil and helpful understanding a rant by a low/average player is when they are upset about something to not just egg them on. Like the aramusha combo saying "just block up" is true sometimes but not entirely helpful with feints maybe they try and then get hit on the side.

Knight_Raime
01-18-2018, 03:30 PM
That's all true but how do we get players just starting out or during a free weekend to stay and want to learn how to get better if they get stomped by what they would call spam moves. For me if I am facing someone I try plan "A" if it works I stay with that then move to plan "B" and "C." So sure it could look spammy but they didn't stop it so why change. After the match if they were struggling I will message them to give them tips. The game is great fun but can be frustrating as no one wants to loose and when matchmaking is iffy sometimes low level players rant about how bad this game is. I read a lot of comments that get taken the wrong way and people get quite upset and way off topic. The "get good" never helps just makes people more upset. There are some on here that are very helpful some not so much. It would be nice if people were more civil and helpful understanding a rant by a low/average player is when they are upset about something to not just egg them on. Like the aramusha combo saying "just block up" is true sometimes but not entirely helpful with feints maybe they try and then get hit on the side.

Is true that communication from both sides could be better. and that "get good" as just that is just as helpful as "x attack is unreactable/op."
Back when centurion first came out everytime someone messaged me about him (hate mail or not) i'd max the character limit in a few messages telling them what I can do and how they can deal with it. Made a friend that way.

I do try my best to stay civil here and give advice when it seems like the person is generally looking like they want help. But i'm not perfect. I have made bad posts before.

Card1acArrest
01-18-2018, 05:38 PM
people are just different.

i dont like trashing ppl in duels. i normally ease up. let em have a win too.

others just never relent and enjoy maximising their win. and dont care about the opponent.
such players typically played Cent then and Shaman now.

and that is fair enuff.