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View Full Version : All the balances issues that needs to get addresed.



Trenk2009
01-16-2018, 03:44 AM
S TIER - (Overall super strong char)

Shaman:
Shaman's is a superbly designed char. However, a 400ms/500ms vortex/dahsed attack with "infinite" range should NOT be cancellable. Clearly you messed up something here. Here dashed attacks as well as her predator's moves goes too fast and either need too get slown down, or need to get uncancellable. I would personally prefer for her to get the cancel possibility disabled. The moves will still be useful because of how fast and how far they go, a would still be garanteed upon throwing.

Gladiator:
Gladiators mix ups are insane, and I love it. However, the toe stab speed and the zone attack need to be looked at.
The toe stab when still having stamina is too fast: it's almost guaranteed on a light stagger time. It needs to be slowed down to a point where it would stilll be guaranteed on a heavy stagger time, but not a light.
The glad's zone is the strongest attack of the game. Fast as ****, unpunishable,coming out of neutral. Slow it down a bit, and then make it uncancellabe. This should make it fair.

A TIER - (1 Move/Mecanic super strong)

Shinobi:
I think the shinobi backflip stamina cost needs to be higher, and that the health buff he got should become a tier 1 passiv feat.
For the health buff, it simply doesn't make sense for a char that hard to punish on 1V1 to have almost as much health as a PK or a Cent. That health buff was clearly only needed for 4V4 gamemodes, not all around.
For the backflip, considering how strong the kick is, I think the shinobi should get more punished for missing it. By making the backflip cost more stamina, infinite spamming kick shino will start to think of other way to get trough your defense.

Cent:
As of right now, Cent is in a god spot offensively. He sure is no way near how OP he was before his nerf, but he stills has variable timings, fast heavys, vortexes, soft feints, gb follow ups.
However, defensively speaking, the cent punish out of a light parry is too strong. I can put my self in a situations where I don't risk to get wall splat, but I can't prevent getting light parried. You should make it so light parry just offers a regular heavy, and compensate the loss by making it so the punches after a gb inflict little damage like Raider's knee, and that the jab is guaranteed after a connecting heavy FINISHER.

Lawbringer:
Lawbringer is simply a pain in the *** when your char can't deflect. Cuz when he can't, you just can't dodge the light after the shove, so it becomes the most cancerous char of the game. Waits to block, guaranteed shove, and boom unpunishable 50/50.
I see 2 solutions for this issue:
First, you can make it so the shove on block is different from the shove out of neutral, so that his light can be actually blockable, thus making the shove on block an interrupting tool leading to some mix up; while keeping the shove out of neutral too his initial state.
Or, you can make it so shove on block can only be used after blocking a heavy, and not also on light. Thus reducing the cancerousness of it.

Peacekeeper:
The zone. Simply make it so the second strike is guaranteed if the first one hits but that it isn't cancellable anymore, thus making it somewhat balanced: high risk/high reward.

Warlord:
Slow just a little bit the headbut so it's actually reactable.

Raider:
The stamina drain upon back carrying is a bit too much honestly.


B TIER - (Overall decent but can use some love)

Aramusha:
I complimented the devs for their work on a lot of heroes. Sorry but this is not that way this time. I think the aramusha is unninteresting, spam driven, not complex, and overall poorly designed.If I can only give 1 thing that is **** about this char it must be the full block stance. Useless. Rework it.

Nobushi:
Her kit is quite strong, but the viper's retreat after block and the hidden stance are wasted. First, make it so the viper's retreat actually make the nobushi untargettable, cuz as of right now this move is simply usless, if you block a attack of a chain and then retreat, the next attack of the chain will almost always connect. That's dumb, the move can't be utilized. Then, hidden stance is strong, but his stamina cost is insanely high. Either greatly reduce the cost of it, or make it so any thing a nobushi does following a hidden stance got super armor

Berserker:
Wrote a whole thread about my concern for the rework.

Warden:
Huge dilemma here. The 50/50 is a problem, yet she's trash tier without it. Any suggestions ?

Shugoki:
In a pretty good spot right now. He would be really cool if, just like with Conq, his light getting parried gave the same punishs as heavys tho.

C Tier - (Too weak to be viable)

Orochi:
Basically a very predictable version of the berserker. Needs an opener, and more somplexity

Valkyrie:
Everything is too reactable offensiv-wise. And her damages are ridiculous defensive-wise. She needs to have more mix up options: as how right now, a first valk's light can ONLY be followed by another light. She needs to have a light into heavy combo and a heavy into light into heavy combo. Also her shiled bash needs to guarantee a light.

Kensei:
Cant wait for rework.

Conq:
Can't wait for rework.

Highlander:
Can't wait for rework.


THANKS FOR READING !

PepsiBeastin
01-16-2018, 04:44 AM
Shugoki:
In a pretty good spot right now. He would be really cool if, just like with Conq, his light getting parried gave the same punishs as heavys tho.





Lost all validity the second you said that.

Knight_Raime
01-16-2018, 05:50 AM
Going to address each hero as a point:

Shaman: no. Speed only takes you so far. in upper tier matches speed isn't enough. You need mix ups. Removing feinting for her would gut her kit period. The only things that need to be touched on for shaman right now is bite in terms of damage, heal, and stamina gain. and bug fixes. And the removal of splat on pounce. Also none of what she does is vortex. Warden doesn't even vortex.


Gladiator: No. Toe stab is never guaranteed unless you're stuck in action que from guard switch. Toe stab is 100% legit and should be left alone. His zone should absolutely be looked at. But slowing the speed wouldn't change anything. and removing the cancel out right would be too far. Maybe only remove the cancel if the first hit doesn't connect. It is punishable though. My centurion can walk back from the UB bash and heavy to hit him wether or not he cancels after the miss.

Shinobi: No. They already had nerfed backflip once and it wasn't ever usable again due to kick+ backflip stam cost. The health buff needs to stay period. he doesn't have the punishes or the damage to warrent having such low health. Only good punish is sickle rain on light parry punish. Which will likely be gone when parry is nerfed in season 5. Back flip is punishable by majority of the cast. Any assassin can punish the whiff kick AND the whiff kick into back flip simply with a dodge attack as an example. Back flip isn't difficult to punish. You just need to learn your matchups. And kick spam is irrelevant. It's 100% reactable. And blocking the heavy after gives a free GB to everyone.

Centurion: No point in tanking his light parry punish when plenty of other members of the cast can hit just as hard if not harder with their light parry punish. And as I mentioned those are likely going away anyway in season 5. Centurion could receive a few nerfs to his punishes. But if and only if the rest of his kit that is non functional atm is buffed in the same patch. As it stand currently he's only in A tier because of his punishes.

LB: It's not a 50/50. But yes. shove on block is bad. and should be removed. Maybe parry+ GB gives you the shove on block then. But from neutral it shouldn't exist simply by blocking.

PK: nah. They can just slightly increase the stamina cost and add recovery if it's blocked. that way she can't back dash immediately. She could stand to have a few other adjustments. But she's pretty fair atm. the lack of time snap is what makes her zone so annoying to block currently.

warlord: his headbutt is already reactable and has been slowed at least twice now. Throw distance needs another nerf. and he needs a buff for his superior lights.

Raider: Nah. his a grapple hero. that is his threat. his mix up game is reactable as heck. only bad thing about him is the insta stampede. otherwise his kit is actually really nice atm.

Mushu: BB top heavy should always work against heavy attacks (besides the one instance for standard heros where their guard is already in top. then it's just blocked.) side UB heavy should be soft feintable into GB. Kick from BB should be faster and be allowed to be done even if you don't BB something. This kick looks different and can be slightly delayed. due to that the active frame time of BB would be longer (done by holding the FB) but still can't CGB out of it. and still has the same recovery at the end of it. The kick would be used like nobu's kick atm. This kick guarantees a light and has splat potential. Zone should be soft feintable into top light.

Nobu: I think her kit is fine aside from hidden stance stamina cost. should be cheaper. I don't really see any other particular flaws with her kit.

Warden: I think she should get a rework where she uses half swording techniques as a stance sort of thing. But not a full stance like highlander. maybe a mix between parry counters and a full block stance.

Goki: needs a huge rework. his kit is based around trading. he's the turtle god. most of his kit is garbage along with his recovery. I suggest armor only be a thing with more active use for starters.

Orochi: storm rush soft feintable into dash attacks and slightly faster/harder hitting. But loses double light guarantee on standard heros. riptide should get proper dodge frames and can be held longer for more damage/cancelable if charged into UB form. Double lights in all directions but nerfed damage. 3rd light in the light light light combo is replaced with a fast ish heavy.

Valk: crushing shield counter needs better consistency. she overall needs less punishability. and she needs another mix up or 2.

Not commenting on zerk, conq, kensei, and HL because they're already being reworked.

BTTrinity
01-16-2018, 11:29 AM
Yet another cry for Shinobi nerf, how is it that this community hates Shinobi so much, but not the class riddled with 400-500ms unblockables 90% of which are unpunishable (Gladiator)

Onn the other hand Shinobi has a strong CC kit, 100% of which is punishable and throws him on the ground. If Shinobi does get nerfed, his HP should be brought down to 100 (No more, No less) Also, screw the idea of his health being a feat, his HP buff was needed to make him playable outside of the top 5 players in the world and fix his dash exploit.

My warden suggestion: give him a kit.

I also couldnt agree any more on Nobushis part.

Knight_Raime
01-16-2018, 11:40 AM
Yet another cry for Shinobi nerf, how is it that this community hates Shinobi so much, but not the class riddled with 400-500ms unblockables 90% of which are unpunishable (Gladiator)

Onn the other hand Shinobi has a strong CC kit, 100% of which is punishable and throws him on the ground. If Shinobi does get nerfed, his HP should be brought down to 100 (No more, No less) Also, screw the idea of his health being a feat, his HP buff was needed to make him playable outside of the top 5 players in the world and fix his dash exploit.

My warden suggestion: give him a kit.

I also couldnt agree any more on Nobushis part.

I don't think glad has any 400ms attacks.
Glad isn't complained much about anymore because people are getting the hang of dodging toe stab. and any dodge attack you block from him is a free GB for any class. His dash bashes are also pretty easily dodged and punished.

Alustar.exe
01-16-2018, 12:39 PM
Ugh gladiator is highly punishable as well. Every one of his unlockable attacks can be dodged and guard broken. Toe stab, jab and the bleed heavy/throw can be avoided and countered.

Trenk2009
01-16-2018, 03:43 PM
Yet another cry for Shinobi nerf, how is it that this community hates Shinobi so much, but not the class riddled with 400-500ms unblockables 90% of which are unpunishable (Gladiator)

Onn the other hand Shinobi has a strong CC kit, 100% of which is punishable and throws him on the ground. If Shinobi does get nerfed, his HP should be brought down to 100 (No more, No less) Also, screw the idea of his health being a feat, his HP buff was needed to make him playable outside of the top 5 players in the world and fix his dash exploit.

My warden suggestion: give him a kit.

I also couldnt agree any more on Nobushis part.

I'm a shinobi player my self dude. He's honestly super strong. By spamming kicks and quad dodges, you can play in a way that really gives little to no way for your opponent to punish you depending on who he plays.
That's why I only asked for a health nerf and a stmaian BACKFLIP ONLY stamina cost nerf. I'm tired of shinobis spamming kicks and then backflipping if not connectting.

Trenk2009
01-16-2018, 03:59 PM
Going to address each hero as a point:

Shaman: no. Speed only takes you so far. in upper tier matches speed isn't enough. You need mix ups. Removing feinting for her would gut her kit period. The only things that need to be touched on for shaman right now is bite in terms of damage, heal, and stamina gain. and bug fixes. And the removal of splat on pounce. Also none of what she does is vortex. Warden doesn't even vortex.


Gladiator: No. Toe stab is never guaranteed unless you're stuck in action que from guard switch. Toe stab is 100% legit and should be left alone. His zone should absolutely be looked at. But slowing the speed wouldn't change anything. and removing the cancel out right would be too far. Maybe only remove the cancel if the first hit doesn't connect. It is punishable though. My centurion can walk back from the UB bash and heavy to hit him wether or not he cancels after the miss.

Shinobi: No. They already had nerfed backflip once and it wasn't ever usable again due to kick+ backflip stam cost. The health buff needs to stay period. he doesn't have the punishes or the damage to warrent having such low health. Only good punish is sickle rain on light parry punish. Which will likely be gone when parry is nerfed in season 5. Back flip is punishable by majority of the cast. Any assassin can punish the whiff kick AND the whiff kick into back flip simply with a dodge attack as an example. Back flip isn't difficult to punish. You just need to learn your matchups. And kick spam is irrelevant. It's 100% reactable. And blocking the heavy after gives a free GB to everyone.

Centurion: No point in tanking his light parry punish when plenty of other members of the cast can hit just as hard if not harder with their light parry punish. And as I mentioned those are likely going away anyway in season 5. Centurion could receive a few nerfs to his punishes. But if and only if the rest of his kit that is non functional atm is buffed in the same patch. As it stand currently he's only in A tier because of his punishes.

LB: It's not a 50/50. But yes. shove on block is bad. and should be removed. Maybe parry+ GB gives you the shove on block then. But from neutral it shouldn't exist simply by blocking.

PK: nah. They can just slightly increase the stamina cost and add recovery if it's blocked. that way she can't back dash immediately. She could stand to have a few other adjustments. But she's pretty fair atm. the lack of time snap is what makes her zone so annoying to block currently.

warlord: his headbutt is already reactable and has been slowed at least twice now. Throw distance needs another nerf. and he needs a buff for his superior lights.

Raider: Nah. his a grapple hero. that is his threat. his mix up game is reactable as heck. only bad thing about him is the insta stampede. otherwise his kit is actually really nice atm.

Mushu: BB top heavy should always work against heavy attacks (besides the one instance for standard heros where their guard is already in top. then it's just blocked.) side UB heavy should be soft feintable into GB. Kick from BB should be faster and be allowed to be done even if you don't BB something. This kick looks different and can be slightly delayed. due to that the active frame time of BB would be longer (done by holding the FB) but still can't CGB out of it. and still has the same recovery at the end of it. The kick would be used like nobu's kick atm. This kick guarantees a light and has splat potential. Zone should be soft feintable into top light.

Nobu: I think her kit is fine aside from hidden stance stamina cost. should be cheaper. I don't really see any other particular flaws with her kit.

Warden: I think she should get a rework where she uses half swording techniques as a stance sort of thing. But not a full stance like highlander. maybe a mix between parry counters and a full block stance.

Goki: needs a huge rework. his kit is based around trading. he's the turtle god. most of his kit is garbage along with his recovery. I suggest armor only be a thing with more active use for starters.

Orochi: storm rush soft feintable into dash attacks and slightly faster/harder hitting. But loses double light guarantee on standard heros. riptide should get proper dodge frames and can be held longer for more damage/cancelable if charged into UB form. Double lights in all directions but nerfed damage. 3rd light in the light light light combo is replaced with a fast ish heavy.

Valk: crushing shield counter needs better consistency. she overall needs less punishability. and she needs another mix up or 2.

Not commenting on zerk, conq, kensei, and HL because they're already being reworked.

Soooo.

Shaman, I do realize that you need mix up, but if you slow down the predators and dashed attacks, they will simply become quite useless and won't be guaranteed on throw again. I would also love for a char to be as complex and intricate as possibel, but with shaman, I think slowing her down and reducing her range just doesn't fit the way she should feel and play.
A good compromise would maybe to be able to feint only the dashed attacks and not the predator, cuz clearly you can't react to the predator it self, you always have to look at her dashing. 400ms, without time snap is way to much for something that can be cancelled.

Glad. Yes toe stab is guaranteed on heavy stagger. Just try it out. Honestly I'm not asking for a huge slow down, but just 50ms longer would be fine.

Shinobi. I'm a rep 12 shinobi. I don't struggle facing them. But don't act as if the kick into backflip isn't strong. First off, only char with attack uppon dodges can punish it, yet that punish is irrelevant comparing to how much they would have gotten punished by taking the kick. Plus, not to menton that, if you only react to the kick, more often than not, the dodges attack connets withing the backflip and so inlfic no stagger time upon the shinobi allowing him to ranged gb afterwards and still catch you if you can't follow up your dodged attack with a fast enough light, but yet again he could also do nothing and parry you.
Don't act as if the light parr waht the only way to get the cycle rain in too. Shinobi got a lot of way to bait his opponent to get it in.
I disagree with you. I think the health buff wasn't required.

Cent. Harder than his light punish ? Excuse me but I don't see a lot of chars able to inflict 65 damages as a well as a bit of stam damage to their oppinent after a light parry.

Warlord. Having to dodge withtin the 5 first fram of the unblockble effect isn't what I call reactable.

Knight_Raime
01-17-2018, 08:30 AM
@Trenk2009

I don't think shaman needs slowing down. Maybe a normalization to the speeds on all directions for her bleed pokes and her wildcats rage directions. But I don't think she needs a speed nerf. We should wait till lag comp (coming with dedi servers) is added in and see then. As I mentioned I think the only nerfs possibly warrented for her at this point is bite nerfs. and maybe the removal of splat on pounce.

Can you clarify what "heavy stagger" is?

I'm not saying the backflip isn't strong. I'm saying nearly everyone in the cast has some way to punish either the whiffed kick or the whiffed kick into back flip. Bushi is an example of someone who can punish both without needing a dash attack. There are others like her. It's not the only way. But it's the easiest and most consistently used one.

I don't consider stamina damage when back dashing and side dashing recovery is good enough on most heros to escape most pressure when OOS. If dodge speed and distance was reduced when OOS then i'd consider it more threatening. Mushu can do 70. zerk can do 90. Shin and bushi have some really high ones as well. etc. Centurions 65 damage is probably the easiest hard hitting punish to get. But to imply that his are the hardest hitting is just false.

I don't struggle to dodge it on console.

The_B0G_
01-17-2018, 05:43 PM
Yet another cry for Shinobi nerf, how is it that this community hates Shinobi so much, but not the class riddled with 400-500ms unblockables 90% of which are unpunishable (Gladiator)

Onn the other hand Shinobi has a strong CC kit, 100% of which is punishable and throws him on the ground. If Shinobi does get nerfed, his HP should be brought down to 100 (No more, No less) Also, screw the idea of his health being a feat, his HP buff was needed to make him playable outside of the top 5 players in the world and fix his dash exploit.

My warden suggestion: give him a kit.

I also couldnt agree any more on Nobushis part.

People hate on shinobi because he's the most cowardly character in the game, and can be very cancerous in 4v4 modes.