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general_kalle
07-19-2008, 06:17 PM
proof:

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g90/general_kalle/IL2Supersonic1.jpg
still Intakt on this one!

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g90/general_kalle/IL2Supersonic2.jpg
Still Intakt

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g90/general_kalle/IL2Supersonic.jpg
not so intakt...bit i did reach 1300 before it exploded in a big fireball.

supersonic is +1200...but there were no sonicboom? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
well at least there were a boom a little later http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

general_kalle
07-19-2008, 06:17 PM
proof:

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g90/general_kalle/IL2Supersonic1.jpg
still Intakt on this one!

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g90/general_kalle/IL2Supersonic2.jpg
Still Intakt

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g90/general_kalle/IL2Supersonic.jpg
not so intakt...bit i did reach 1300 before it exploded in a big fireball.

supersonic is +1200...but there were no sonicboom? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
well at least there were a boom a little later http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

stalkervision
07-19-2008, 06:21 PM
Try this. Try it again and this time switch to an observer on the ground view just as you do it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

general_kalle
07-19-2008, 06:25 PM
weill try that.

PanzerAce
07-19-2008, 07:34 PM
methinks you forgot IAS vs. TAS.

IAS you were moving at ~1090. Call it 1100 to give you the advantage. 1100km/h = 305.5 m/s.

Mach 1 is 340 m/s at sea level. While being three klicks up would bring that down slightly, I doubt that it would cut just right around 10% off the speed of sound.

Sure, TAS you were moving ALOT faster, but that is speed relative to the ground, not relative to the air, which is what matters for Mach.

general_kalle
07-19-2008, 08:42 PM
DOH! what do you think the big yellow gauge is for? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

mortoma
07-19-2008, 10:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PanzerAce:
methinks you forgot IAS vs. TAS.

IAS you were moving at ~1090. Call it 1100 to give you the advantage. 1100km/h = 305.5 m/s.

Mach 1 is 340 m/s at sea level. While being three klicks up would bring that down slightly, I doubt that it would cut just right around 10% off the speed of sound.

Sure, TAS you were moving ALOT faster, but that is speed relative to the ground, not relative to the air, which is what matters for Mach. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>TAS is not relative to the ground. Groundspeed is relative to the ground. In zero wind then ground speed and TAS are the same. But that's the only time.

grifter2u
07-19-2008, 11:28 PM
s was there a sonic boom when viewing the aircraft on external view ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PanzerAce
07-19-2008, 11:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PanzerAce:
methinks you forgot IAS vs. TAS.

IAS you were moving at ~1090. Call it 1100 to give you the advantage. 1100km/h = 305.5 m/s.

Mach 1 is 340 m/s at sea level. While being three klicks up would bring that down slightly, I doubt that it would cut just right around 10% off the speed of sound.

Sure, TAS you were moving ALOT faster, but that is speed relative to the ground, not relative to the air, which is what matters for Mach. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>TAS is not relative to the ground. Groundspeed is relative to the ground. In zero wind then ground speed and TAS are the same. But that's the only time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Point, but my point remains for this, as IAS is what is important for mach.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">DOH! what do you think the big yellow gauge is for? Roll Eyes </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Honestly? I never use it, as it is next to worthless, unless you are trying to navigate without icons. The yellow disc is TAS, not IAS (the red text). Perhaps you should read up on Mach and the like before assuming you've crossed it?

Cajun76
07-20-2008, 01:16 AM
The main reason you exploded is you reached 3000m at that speed.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/IL2M_W040209_180538_C04020918053832.jpg

Speed is definitely a factor, but if you don't pull out before you smash 3000m, 3000m will smash you. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

If you'll notice, I've just deployed combat flaps to assist a gentle pullout. Real easy to rip the wings off here.

Note: This pic is at least a couple years old, so things might be different.

DKoor
07-20-2008, 05:45 AM
TA-183 might do the better job.

general_kalle
07-20-2008, 06:11 AM
speed of sounds is 1200 kmh.
do you aknowlagde that i went supersonic?

DKoor
07-20-2008, 08:13 AM
I never saw breaking of barrier in IL2.
It probably can't be done in the game unless there is some kind of bug about aircraft (structural strength) etc., but if you turn off the vulnerability there is still no sign of breaking the barrier which means that it isn't modeled.

http://i35.tinypic.com/keytdi.jpg

JadehawkII
07-20-2008, 08:32 AM
Oleg himself said many moons ago he did not model supersonic in the game as it never was intended for that. This sim goes back 9 years and it's expanded far more than what it was first created for.

Having said that, I do believe the next one he's hard at work on WILL have it modeled in. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Korolov1986
07-20-2008, 10:13 AM
Me-163. Climb to 20,000m. Dive down. Sound barrier broken.

Jambock_Dolfo
07-20-2008, 10:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skunk_438RCAF:
...

The higher up you go, the faster you have to be in order to break the sound barrier. Do some better research ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dude, "you is wrong".

Speed of sound varies with temperature. Warmer temperatures mean higher sound speeds, lower temperatures mean lower sound speeds. As air temperature usually decreases with altitude the speed of sound also decreases. Meaning you will reach mach 1 at a lower speed than at sea level.
Which is the opposite of what you just posted.


-dolfo

Skunk_438RCAF
07-20-2008, 12:22 PM
it was early in the morning. I was grumpy. So sue me.

JtD
07-20-2008, 12:39 PM
Planes break up at certain speeds in il-2. 1000 is the limit for most jets and the P-47. This is the IAS, which is shown in the cockpit and the red number of the HUD. If you fly at a constant speed, the IAS gets lower the higher you fly (because the air gets thinner).

The TAS is the actual speed of the aircraft as it moves through the air. This is displayed at the big yellow gauge in the cockpit off mode. The speed of sound is about 340m/s at sea level and has to be compared to the TAS. The speed of sound gets lower the higher you fly, due to the lower temperature and density of the air.

So, it is save to say that everyone who has a speed of 1200+ in the yellow gauge in Il-2 has gone sonic. If you pull out before break up speed you'll survive. The higher you fly, the easier it is.

Sonic issues are not modeled in il-2.

Please stop posting uninformed rubbish.

general_kalle
07-20-2008, 02:10 PM
wohoo.. that means i went supersonic (yes yes, i know it isnt moddeled but its a personal victory to have people tell me that its true.

thanks JtD. That was what i wanted to hear.
now for the light barrier...eerh maybe that'll have to wait... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

stalkervision
07-20-2008, 02:18 PM
I love to fly the me-163 on unlimited fuel into low earth orbit.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Korolov1986
07-20-2008, 04:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
I love to fly the me-163 on unlimited fuel into low earth orbit.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hell, I just edited the mission to get this:

http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/sr71_eatyourheartout.jpg

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Cajun76
07-20-2008, 04:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by general_kalle:
wohoo.. that means i went supersonic (yes yes, i know it isnt moddeled but its a personal victory to have people tell me that its true.

thanks JtD. That was what i wanted to hear.
now for the light barrier...eerh maybe that'll have to wait... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Since the sim only models subsonic, no matter how fast you go, you will always be subsonic. Even Korolov's Me-163 is subsonic. Warm fuzzies are not modeled either. Wrong forum if you want to request those. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

dangerlaef
07-20-2008, 05:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by general_kalle

supersonic is +1200...but there were no sonicboom? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
well at least there were a boom a little later http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would you hear a boom?

The sonic boom is the sound of the shockwave passing an observer,
not the sound of "bursting" through a barrier.

You would not hear it from the aircraft or the external view even if it was modeled.

general_kalle
07-20-2008, 05:51 PM
Cajun! i went to a speed that's suposed to be past the speed of sound.
as i said, although it isnt moddeled its a vitory to know that i made it past 1200kmh.

Dangerleaf:
you are right. i wouldn't have heard a boom even if it was moddeled.

DKoor
07-20-2008, 06:07 PM
I wonder whether sow will model sonic booms etc.
Would like to beat one in a Me-108 or Su-26.

Also "fly by" view could be arranged to feature a "boom", especially viewing from static cameras.

KrashanTopolova
07-20-2008, 11:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by general_kalle:
wohoo.. that means i went supersonic (yes yes, i know it isnt moddeled but its a personal victory to have people tell me that its true.

thanks JtD. That was what i wanted to hear.
now for the light barrier...eerh maybe that'll have to wait... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry to burst your soundbite but if you don't cause a sonic boom you have not broken the sound barrier even if its not modelled in the game.

IAS is measured by an instrument (pitot tube) that's why it is different to TAS. TAS is the indicator for the speed of sound.

The amount of thrust is the factor that makes an object overcome the sound barrier. I have never heard of an aircraft creating a sonic boom by diving under the force of gravity (does the shuttle re-entry create a sonic boom? - do asteroids create a sonic boom?). The Me262 did not have the thrust to break the sound barrier.

And I have never heard of a pilot in the cockpit hearing a sonic boom; that needs an observer on the ground (not in the air)

correct me if I'm wrong but when a sonic boom is approaching the vortices around the aircraft are increasing. If Oleg didn't give us any vortices I'm hearing right when I dive in a jet.

WTE_Galway
07-20-2008, 11:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KrashanTopolova:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by general_kalle:
wohoo.. that means i went supersonic (yes yes, i know it isnt moddeled but its a personal victory to have people tell me that its true.

thanks JtD. That was what i wanted to hear.
now for the light barrier...eerh maybe that'll have to wait... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry to burst your soundbite but if you don't cause a sonic boom you have not broken the sound barrier even if its not modelled in the game.

IAS is measured by an instrument (pitot tube) that's why it is different to TAS. TAS is the indicator for the speed of sound.

The amount of thrust is the factor that makes an object overcome the sound barrier. I have never heard of an aircraft creating a sonic boom by diving under the force of gravity (does the shuttle re-entry create a sonic boom? - do asteroids create a sonic boom?). The Me262 did not have the thrust to break the sound barrier.

And I have never heard of a pilot in the cockpit hearing a sonic boom; that needs an observer on the ground (not in the air)

correct me if I'm wrong but when a sonic boom is approaching the vortices around the aircraft are increasing. If Oleg didn't give us any vortices I'm hearing right when I dive in a jet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Without getting too much into details the problem breaking the sound barrier wasn't lack of thrust it was loss of control. One of the big breakthroughs was variable incidence tailplanes.

Prop planes are another matter .. NASA research eventually found supersonic props were feasible but they do not resemble anything we are familiar with in Il2

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0031b.shtml

A commercial 747 has more than enough thrust to break the sound barrier as do most civilian business jets.

Cajun76
07-21-2008, 01:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KrashanTopolova:


The amount of thrust is the factor that makes an object overcome the sound barrier. I have never heard of an aircraft creating a sonic boom by diving under the force of gravity (does the shuttle re-entry create a sonic boom? - do asteroids create a sonic boom?). The Me262 did not have the thrust to break the sound barrier.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Shuttle produces a "sonic boom", although it's heard as more of a "crack"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_boom

Look under: Perception and noise

Some of the early jet fighters could dive supersonically. That's why they make a distinction when referring the fighters that could reach Mach 1 and 2 in level flight, as opposed to diving through Mach 1 and leveling out at supersonic speed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-100_Super_Sabre

However, it's not just thrust: the airframe, engines, inlets and control surfaces need to be designed to fly through the build up of shock waves as the aircraft exceeds Mach 1.

KrashanTopolova
07-21-2008, 08:29 PM
Some speculations:

Interesting that the Shuttle sonic boom is heard as a crack. I wonder if this is a function of its speed having left the sound barrier boom way back upwards in the upper atmosphere?

The shuttle could add thrust as was done by the General but the only point of that would be to deflect the force of gravity (before it destroys the Shuttle) by rotating out of the gravity pull into horizontal control. Perhaps then the Shuttle creates the sonic boom as it is 'levelling' out and pulling G's and being covered with vortices.

a picture of an aircraft that is passing through the sound 'barrier' has a vortice circular around the aircraft fuselage or beforehand on the nose. Indeed, as was alluded to, the shape of the aircraft and its power parts must have something to do with allowing the sonic boom. The difference between an asteroid not making a sonic boom (if this is fact) could be that it is falling under gravity (even if its going faster than the speed of sound) while things that make sonic booms have to have something to accelerate it through and beyond the speed of sound to create the 'boom' heard.

So...OK...I grant it to General_kalle that (if his pitot tube was not in fact over-reading in the dive) that his Me_262 theoretically went faster than the speed of sound but did he break the sound barrier?
He could have been reaching a constant velocity under gravity (similar to a parachutist where his/her acceleration reaches a point of zero and the parachutist then falls with a constant velocity before opening the chute)
The Me-262 thrust may not have been enough to achieve the acceleration needed above that added by gravity to break the sound barrier and create a sonic boom. In other words, in the dive he may have had the maximum and sub-sonic thrust of the Me-262 which when added to gravity (9.82 m/sec/sec) was still only a constant velocity and gravity alone was making the Me-262 rise in speed.

Anyway, it was asserted that early jets broke the sound barrier by diving (I believe Yeager did it first in the rocket-powered plane dropped from a Bomber - his flight was mostly horizontal too) so I take it on trust and my head hurts enough from this topic anyway http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif