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View Full Version : It is literally impossible for a good Shugoki to beat a good Warden



PepsiBeastin
01-10-2018, 06:26 AM
Step 1: Warden guardbreaks to remove Shugoki's armor.


Step 2: Warden starts Shoulder Bash to see how Shugoki will react.


Step 3: If Shugoki dodges, you have about 10 seconds of free guardbreaking against him because f*** Shugoki's dodge recovery am I right? If Shugoki tries to do any attack at all, just go through with your bash because you will literally hit him out of it as any attack he can throw in the available time has no natural hyper armor.


Step 4: Rinse repeat until Shugoki is OOS, then you don't have to worry about his armor and can just shoulder bash/throw him on the ground for free damage.

Charmzzz
01-10-2018, 09:33 AM
You do know that you can Light attack the Warden when he tries to GB you in the first step? Because Light beats GB, you know? And after the Light you get a dazing and stamina draining headbutt for free. Or you can just start charging your heavy when the Warden starts to get close for a feint-mindgame. Or you can just roll out of the "Vortex" once he started. And you know something else? Shugo is one of the best Duel Characters in the game due to his insane parry-wallsplat-demon embrace combo.

BarbeQMichael
01-10-2018, 10:07 AM
Yeah there are few heroes who are screwed when facing sb-spamming warden, shugo and trashlander mainly because they lack fast attacks to counter it. I've heard some people throw in some nonsense like "bruh just roll away :D" as a serious advice. As a shrek your best bet is to hope your hyperarmor activates in the middle of his combo so you dont get stunned and can proceed to parry him. Would really like to see those heroes get buffed to playable level and even possibly nerfed or removed the whole sb-spam from warden.

Charmzzz
01-10-2018, 10:13 AM
Yeah there are few heroes who are screwed when facing sb-spamming warden, shugo and trashlander mainly because they lack fast attacks to counter it. I've heard some people throw in some nonsense like "bruh just roll away :D" as a serious advice. As a shrek your best bet is to hope your hyperarmor activates in the middle of his combo so you dont get stunned and can proceed to parry him. Would really like to see those heroes get buffed to playable level and even possibly nerfed or removed the whole sb-spam from warden.

Bruh, Shugoki is a King in Duels against most of the roster. Even vs Warden he does not have a bad stand, because Warden himself is pretty low tier. As Shugo you can guard top - SB after Light for Warden completely denied. If he dodges for a SB you have the opportunity to GB or Light him. Or Roll away. Or, if you have your Hyperarmor back, you can GB him even after he bashed you for a wallsplat demon embrace. Plenty of options. Git gud...

Highlander is the only hero in the roster that literally has a bad matchup on Warden. Everyone else is on par or above.

BarbeQMichael
01-10-2018, 10:37 AM
Bruh, Shugoki is a King in Duels against most of the roster. Even vs Warden he does not have a bad stand, because Warden himself is pretty low tier. As Shugo you can guard top - SB after Light for Warden completely denied. If he dodges for a SB you have the opportunity to GB or Light him. Or Roll away. Or, if you have your Hyperarmor back, you can GB him even after he bashed you for a wallsplat demon embrace. Plenty of options. Git gud...


Cannot really agree with shugo being top tier in duels, all he can do is full turtle and try to parry for 25dmg or 40dmg if near wall, and ie. cent does that much better. What if the warden gets sb in and then starts chaining it? Other heroes can just poke him out with lights, but shrek does not have any. He could try to dodge it but that would only lead to a gb. Hyperarmor works if the warden for some reason forgets to remove it, and as we all know rolling away is not an answer.

Charmzzz
01-10-2018, 11:23 AM
Cannot really agree with shugo being top tier in duels, all he can do is full turtle and try to parry for 25dmg or 40dmg if near wall, and ie. cent does that much better. What if the warden gets sb in and then starts chaining it? Other heroes can just poke him out with lights, but shrek does not have any. He could try to dodge it but that would only lead to a gb. Hyperarmor works if the warden for some reason forgets to remove it, and as we all know rolling away is not an answer.

Shugo is better in turtling than Cent as he heals himself after a wallsplat - demon embrace. And after Warden removed the Hyperarmor on Shugo and starts to SB with a Dodge you can always GB him out of that (GB is 400ms, Warden SB is 700ms). If you get hit by his Top Light, well, that is your fault. And btw how many SB Combos can Warden get after removing Hyperarmor? 2 maybe? That would be 48 Damage, and if the Warden messes up and gets GBed into wallsplat - demon embrace the Shugo will heal himself up by almost the same amount.

It is not the worst matchup for Shugoki. All 500ms double hit heroes (Shaman, Shinobi) are a pain for Shugo because they remove his Hyperarmor and interrupt him within one Attack.

BarbeQMichael
01-10-2018, 11:44 AM
And after Warden removed the Hyperarmor on Shugo and starts to SB with a Dodge you can always GB him out of that (GB is 400ms, Warden SB is 700ms). If you get hit by his Top Light, well, that is your fault. And btw how many SB Combos can Warden get after removing Hyperarmor? 2 maybe? That would be 48 Damage, and if the Warden messes up and gets GBed into wallsplat - demon embrace the Shugo will heal himself up by almost the same amount.


You can gb warden out of it only if he starts it at point blank range. Shugo's HA is removed simply by a guardbreak, even if he counters it, so warden can remove it whenever it gets back.

Charmzzz
01-10-2018, 11:51 AM
You can gb warden out of it only if he starts it at point blank range. Shugo's HA is removed simply by a guardbreak, even if he counters it, so warden can remove it whenever it gets back.

If Warden is NOT point blank when he starts to charge his SB you can easily Light him or charge your heavy as you have 700ms + travel time to react. GB is countered by a Light attack btw.

Arekonator
01-10-2018, 11:57 AM
If warden is out of GB range during bash, it means you can safely dodge because it also means he cant cancel it into GB. At that distance there is no excuse of getting hit by it.

BarbeQMichael
01-10-2018, 12:29 PM
Can you really gb warden from his sb spam after the first bash? When I still played shugo it felt like if you couldn't gb/hit him before the first hit, there was nothing I could do.

Knight_Raime
01-10-2018, 12:53 PM
If he's constantly going for GB from neutral you can light trade into headbutt.
if he's bashed you with armor up you can GB him and throw him into a wall for embrace or golf swing to get him into a wall.
if he attempts to light you with armor up you can do either of the above.

Warden cant SB from neutral outside point blank because any hero even goki can dodge a raw SB from neutral. and goki technically has the range to light into headbutt if he's not close to you.

BarbeQMichael
01-10-2018, 01:01 PM
If he's constantly going for GB from neutral you can light trade into headbutt.
if he's bashed you with armor up you can GB him and throw him into a wall for embrace or golf swing to get him into a wall.
if he attempts to light you with armor up you can do either of the above.


We know, the thing is that no one attacks shrek with his armor up, because you can remove it by (failed)gb. What I like to know is if he can reliably counter the sb after the first bash. I played shrek mostly at beginning, but now as I main HL, he and shrek have similar characteristics as in poor dodge recovery and no fast attacks, and I feel really as the underdog when fighting warden with him.

Knight_Raime
01-10-2018, 01:09 PM
We know, the thing is that no one attacks shrek with his armor up, because you can remove it by (failed)gb. What I like to know is if he can reliably counter the sb after the first bash. I played shrek mostly at beginning, but now as I main HL, he and shrek have similar characteristics as in poor dodge recovery and no fast attacks, and I feel really as the underdog when fighting warden with him.

Like I said you can pretty much counter anyone who is to GB happy from neutral with light into headbutt.
I wouldn't have an answer to your question. anyone IK who plays goki good i've never seen in the situation you're describing.
sorry /:

Charmzzz
01-10-2018, 01:10 PM
We know, the thing is that no one attacks shrek with his armor up, because you can remove it by (failed)gb. What I like to know is if he can reliably counter the sb after the first bash. I played shrek mostly at beginning, but now as I main HL, he and shrek have similar characteristics as in poor dodge recovery and no fast attacks, and I feel really as the underdog when fighting warden with him.

Have a look here, 2nd page: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=1037667970

Dodge recovery on Shugo is 600/700/800 forward/side/back, which is not the best but also not the worst. I am not sure if you can counter after the first bash hit you. Best bet would be a GB with the right timing (immediately after your hit recovery is done).