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View Full Version : PLEASE stay AWAY from philosophy Ubisoft



paddy234
01-09-2018, 01:56 PM
After playing the most recent assassins creed game i am quite pleased that they have given up in their philosophy of good and evil as being just a matter of perspective nonsense. The writers for this series are certainly not intelligent enough to dabble with such serious stuff so i'm glad they went back to just making a great game with great mechanics and a story that is easy to get into without being too deep. Venturing into areas you don't understand will make a story appear even more pretentious and shallow. Assassins creed is a game that is primarily based around open world game play that allows you to explore historical places in great detail, it does this better than anyone, it adds quests and violence to keep the player entertained thus why we play as an assassin. The problem with the game is that by carrying out all these evil acts against what you believe to be an evil order the game tries to highlight that the assassins in their actions seem like they are no better which is welcomed fair enough but then goes on to try and denounce in any objective good and evil at all and this is done so you can feel better about your characters and their allies carrying out evil acts. The writers knew that if this game tried to push forward the good vs evil scenario the player would immediately not take it seriously enough realizing their characters action is no better and thus the story would remain shallow so they tried to push forward a philosophical agenda to give the game story more weight, it doesn't work as what they are pushing makes no sense and they now know this which is why they have abandoned it

Playing Assassins creed 2 and Brotherhood and reading the encyclopedia of historical sites around Italy of Churches and religious monuments i was appalled at how the game tried to portray religious orders throughout history, orders that were set up to help the poor etc the writers would sneer them as being only fronts to enrich themselves etc etc. It tried to attack the very institution that build western civilization and in doing so exposed their ignorance, they wanted to perpetuate a philosophy of neither good nor evil while contradicting this at every turn. The twisting of the historical encyclopedia and killing the pope during the sacrament of mass of all things was the game not just attacking some corrupt individual but the institution and all of Catholicism, it was chosen for a reason, to sneer. Of course the creators would be to too scared to do something similar to Islam ;). My point is their overall agenda of attacking Christianity and religion in general went so far as to leak out from the writers above the story itself, we get it guys you don't like religion, all authority is probably evil and be weary of anyone who tells you there is a right or wrong etc etc. Ironically of course the writers borrow from religion to create the very story they tell so no religion means no assassin creed story. Thankfully this is all the past and the writers have realized that noone takes it seriously enough so now their philosophy isn't being perpetuated, it's like they realize noone actually cares and thus are only focusing on a entertaining story line that is truly shallow because it is solely for entertainment purposes so we can enjoy playing as characters who partake in action and violence without the pretentious nonsense that there is a deeper reason for it being there. Thanks Guys :)

paddy234
01-09-2018, 02:07 PM
Sorry i made an error when i said you killed the pope as he didn't die at that point

bitebug2003
01-09-2018, 02:56 PM
Hi paddy234,

If you didn't already know you can edit your post (click on the plus sign on the bottom right of your post).

joshoolhorst
01-09-2018, 06:24 PM
I can see why you say this... But I full mentally diagree with almost everything you say.

MnemonicSyntax
01-09-2018, 06:42 PM
LMAO. Oh what a great wall of text. Thanks for the laughs.

paddy234
01-10-2018, 02:44 AM
MnemonicSyntax you call that a wall of text? lol, sorry if it went right over your head

paddy234
01-10-2018, 02:46 AM
joshoolhorst fair enough

MnemonicSyntax
01-10-2018, 02:46 AM
MnemonicSyntax sorry if it went right over your head

It didn't go over my head, it seemed to have gone over yours though.

But sure, stick to the elementary insults. About what I expect from a guy who has trouble discerning the grey between the black and white.

paddy234
01-10-2018, 02:53 AM
It didn't go over my head, it seemed to have gone over yours though.

But sure, stick to the elementary insults. About what I expect from a guy who has trouble discerning the grey between the black and white.

I know you might find the older philosophical element the game was trying to push as deep but i assure you it's not, as i said it was done to allow the player to emphasize and perhaps justify the actions you carry out in the game, it was done for no other reason than this. I have only played as far as revelations and now origins and therefore can only comment on the first game to revelations which tried to perpetuate this philosophy to now where it has abandoned it, the writers you could say have at least grown up. Reading your comment over i don't think you understood my post at all which is a shame

MnemonicSyntax
01-10-2018, 03:54 AM
I know you might find the older philosophical element the game was trying to push as deep but i assure you it's not, as i said it was done to allow the player to emphasize and perhaps justify the actions you carry out in the game, it was done for no other reason than this. I have only played as far as revelations and now origins and therefore can only comment on the first game to revelations which tried to perpetuate this philosophy to now where it has abandoned it, the writers you could say have at least grown up. Reading your comment over i don't think you understood my post at all which is a shame

I didn't say it was deep. I never once even typed that word. Do you often make up things to fit your narrative? Or do you just wing it.

What's really a shame is that you, for some reason, keep insulting the writing staff of these games.

I'm also aware of the purpose of each game as to how the player is supposed to feel in regards to the main character. There's an over-arching synopsis to fit each game based on each character's circumstance.

For example, Altair is redemption, Ezio is revenge, and then the pursuit of knowledge. Connor is all about freedom, Bayek is back to revenge, etc.

However, with each tenent of the Creed there is also an irony. And these are all present in every single game. It's even touched on in Origins near the end with Aya, concerning killing only those that "deserve it" and Bayek when he realizes revenge doesn't solve anything. How's that for philosophy?

But if you're concerned about "philosophy" in Assassin's Creed, don't ever play Rogue. Because that's the one that makes you question everything.

Back to your post though. You started out insulting the intelligence of the writers and yet ultimately you just want an Assassin's Creed that is about killing and violence, and you use big words like "pretentious" and "shallow" all the while wanting the game to be only shallow.

And, you think the writer's purposefully "sneer" at these religions to take a jab at them when in actuality it doesn't matter if any person is of any color, race, creed, religion, etc. if they are a Templar and are a marked target, they die. They are Templars first and foremost and has nothing to do with what religion they practice.

Lastly, in Assassin's Creed I, Jubair, who was based on Ibn Jubayr, was a Muslim. And, Majd Addin was as well, historically he was a writer who observed and wrote about Saladin. Oh, and let's not forget Rashid ad-Din Sinan, who Al Mualim was based off of.

All of those targets were practitioners of Islam. All of them died because they were Templars, not because they were Muslim.

But, the entire reason I laughed at your post is despite everything i just posted, each and every single AC game has a disclaimer when you start it. It's not meant to be taken seriously as it's a game, and the game comes from all walks of life, faiths, religions, beliefs and sexual orientations.

paddy234
01-10-2018, 04:45 AM
I didn't say it was deep. I never once even typed that word. Do you often make up things to fit your narrative? Or do you just wing it.

What's really a shame is that you, for some reason, keep insulting the writing staff of these games.

I'm also aware of the purpose of each game as to how the player is supposed to feel in regards to the main character. There's an over-arching synopsis to fit each game based on each character's circumstance.

For example, Altair is redemption, Ezio is revenge, and then the pursuit of knowledge. Connor is all about freedom, Bayek is back to revenge, etc.

However, with each tenent of the Creed there is also an irony. And these are all present in every single game. It's even touched on in Origins near the end with Aya, concerning killing only those that "deserve it" and Bayek when he realizes revenge doesn't solve anything. How's that for philosophy?

But if you're concerned about "philosophy" in Assassin's Creed, don't ever play Rogue. Because that's the one that makes you question everything.

Back to your post though. You started out insulting the intelligence of the writers and yet ultimately you just want an Assassin's Creed that is about killing and violence, and you use big words like "pretentious" and "shallow" all the while wanting the game to be only shallow.

And, you think the writer's purposefully "sneer" at these religions to take a jab at them when in actuality it doesn't matter if any person is of any color, race, creed, religion, etc. if they are a Templar and are a marked target, they die. They are Templars first and foremost and has nothing to do with what religion they practice.

Lastly, in Assassin's Creed I, Jubair, who was based on Ibn Jubayr, was a Muslim. And, Majd Addin was as well, historically he was a writer who observed and wrote about Saladin. Oh, and let's not forget Rashid ad-Din Sinan, who Al Mualim was based off of.

All of those targets were practitioners of Islam. All of them died because they were Templars, not because they were Muslim.

But, the entire reason I laughed at your post is despite everything i just posted, each and every single AC game has a disclaimer when you start it. It's not meant to be taken seriously as it's a game, and the game comes from all walks of life, faiths, religions, beliefs and sexual orientations.

See, i really do think you misunderstood my post and what i meant so let me explain. First off the game is shallow however my point was that the creators tried to desperately connect it to something deeper giving us an nihilistic philosophy to justify it and by attacking religion and perpetuating this philosophy it makes the game pretentious and MORE shallow than it needs to ve rather than just cutting the crap and sticking to a shallow story as there is no other round it as this game obviously was created with the game play and world mechanics thought out first and story-line second. Also the slander and sneer at Catholicism constantly remarking in the encyclopedia how corrupt and evil the Catholic church was/is was not just an attacks on individuals but on the institution itself and Catholicism, to create and attacks the Pope as he says MASS surely was done purposely, i mean they would of created such an event with great detail knowing what they were doing, my point was it was done almost as an insult to Catholicism purposely which i could care less about but in doing so proves their ignorance and takes me away from enjoying the story for entertainment purposes

I love how i was able to explore historical places in Italy and reading the historical encyclopedia which was to give the actual history of these sites however you were given a brief description on it's history and the rest on attacking Catholicism and it's orders many of which were involved in the advancing of science, agriculture,arts,helping the poor and philosophy etc it was like they hated Catholicism but at the same time were envious of it's beauty. By the game thrusting you into the renaissance period completely inspired by the Christian world-view the personal view of the writers of the game did everything you could to despise it and it's history and as someone who loves to retain the purity of history they did alot of twisting to try and convince the player that corruption wasn't some individuals going against the teachings of the church but the church itself and it's worldview. That the beauty and rational minds in this age were in no way influenced by Catholicism. Attacking individuals like Christians and Muslims is one thing but attempting to twist an entire period for ones agenda is another. As i said based on what they would write they certainly lacked intelligibility in understanding this period and it took away in how immersive the game was to this era, the game tried to give a different view of the renaissance which was interesting but certainly out of character with the creators agenda of re creating these historical periods.

My point is by abandoning their personal views trying to overlap history and philosophy we can get back to playing a game with a generic storyline but real purpose is built around a fantastic open world that is more becoming like a RPG game which is very much welcomed. The game isn't pretentious anymore which was annoying in earlier titles but now finally cut the crap and give us a game built around exciting gameplay

MnemonicSyntax
01-10-2018, 04:55 AM
What did I just say? Religions aren't attacked. Orders are.

It doesn't matter if you're black, white, red, blue, Muslim, Christian, Catholic, Mennonite Brethren, Mormon, etc.

If you are a Templar, you die because you are a Templar. Nothing more.

The games aren't attacking religion. Catholicism isn't even touched upon in AC except that Rodrigo Borgia becomes Pope, which happened in real life. Beyond that, there isn't even any sort of intentional attack.

And you completely ignored my comments about the Muslim Templars from ACI. So what this really is, is you feel like this is a personal attack against Catholicism.

Protip: It's not.

PS: Don't ever, ever watch Dogma if you can't handle these games.

paddy234
01-10-2018, 05:03 AM
I suppose my point is that because one of the reasons i love Assassins creed is because being so much of a lover of history i am able to explore these periods and the game creators wanted us to be able to do in such great detail however i just wish they didn't let their personal world-view try and create an alternate renaissance era or medieval or colonial etc. I do feel though with the Renaissance especially the aim of earlier games was to make you think there was no connection between the advances of the science, technology, arts, literature etc and the Christian worldview. That it wasn't a good thing and by exploring historical characters of the period you would find they feel the same which wasn't true at all in reality. Anyway it's been many years since i played the previous games and in playing origins i'm glad they have went with a new fresh start as i do feel ptolemy Egypt is exciting not only because of the history and beauty of it but because the creators did't try too much to twist the history of the era so that it longer feels like you are in that period. I feel more immersed in this period than others and that is my biggest appreciation of this. I love it

paddy234
01-10-2018, 05:17 AM
What did I just say? Religions aren't attacked. Orders are.

It doesn't matter if you're black, white, red, blue, Muslim, Christian, Catholic, Mennonite Brethren, Mormon, etc.

If you are a Templar, you die because you are a Templar. Nothing more.

The games aren't attacking religion. Catholicism isn't even touched upon in AC except that Rodrigo Borgia becomes Pope, which happened in real life. Beyond that, there isn't even any sort of intentional attack.

And you completely ignored my comments about the Muslim Templars from ACI. So what this really is, is you feel like this is a personal attack against Catholicism.

Protip: It's not.

PS: Don't ever, ever watch Dogma if you can't handle these games.

I did recognize you pointing out that it wasn't just Christians but also Muslim and i pointed out that i recognize that the game here is attacking individuals regardless of religion but my point was how they tried to twist an era to suit their agenda mainly the renaissance. Now of course you talk about Templars regardless of religion and creed etc but my points are mainly aimed at a combination of things which the biggest one being the historical encyclopedia which i read to great depth and it sneered every Catholic order that was responsible for these beautiful churches or other historical sites, the others being the historical characters appearing to be disconnected from the Christian world-view so as to give the impression their genius was in spite of Christianity and not influenced by it in any way and then of course the attacking the pope as he says the sacrament of mass of all times. All these things exposed the personal views of these writers and my problem was it leaked into the game era so much that it no longer felt like you were playing in the renaissance era but how they wanted you to perceive that era to fit their own world-view, it was too pretentious and they could of just focused on making a great game as what they were doing certinaly lacked in intelligence.

mnenomicsyntax as for not being able to handle these games? As i said if you don't understand what i wrote and how the previous titles twisted eras to suit a point of view then i feel they all go right over your head. Perhaps we are getting a generation who get their historical education of periods from games and movies based in that time which might not always be wrong but most of the time is biased as these early writers were against Catholicism

Also i know you don't believe the writers for this story intended it to be deep however i do, the nihilist philosophy they invoke was done for a reason and this is the philosophy the assassins do everything for. It's done to influence the player that truth lies in everything especially morality being relative to an individual where the Templar's and almost all institutions that invoke objective morality do so to control populations because they believe it's best. If you can't see how they are trying to connect the assassins creed world to the real one fair enough. The game therefore romanticizes nihilism but at the same time doesn't really understand it and objective morality which is why i stated the writers lacked intelligence in this and they knew it so they have abandoned it and rightly so. My point with thread is let it stay that way unless of course next time they genuinely want to get deep philosophically in which case they would need to actually understand both points of view. Otherwise keep up the great work with the new era of Assassins creed games

joshoolhorst
01-11-2018, 03:58 PM
Look I have no real time to read all of this but I can assure you Assassin's Creed does not attack religion at all it wants you to look for the awnsers for your own that is one the things about the Creed and that who knows who wrote those history books, history is written by the winner and can be changed over the centuries. It doesn't matter if you find something in Gods believe so long you have YOUR reasons to believe so.
I really think the newer gamers are going backwards with ignoring this.

paddy234
01-12-2018, 01:25 AM
Look I have no real time to read all of this but I can assure you Assassin's Creed does not attack religion at all it wants you to look for the awnsers for your own that is one the things about the Creed and that who knows who wrote those history books, history is written by the winner and can be changed over the centuries. It doesn't matter if you find something in Gods believe so long you have YOUR reasons to believe so.
I really think the newer gamers are going backwards with ignoring this.

If that text appears very long to you then your obviously reading this on your phone, fair enough. I disagree with what you say and i feel you say it because you truly think the writers had some depth other than trying to make one think of these eras within a certain frame of mind. They dabbled in something they had no clue about

MnemonicSyntax
01-12-2018, 04:35 AM
If that text appears very long to you then your obviously reading this on your phone, fair enough. I disagree with what you say and i feel you say it because you truly think the writers had some depth other than trying to make one think of these eras within a certain frame of mind. They dabbled in something they had no clue about

What? the two aren't mutually exclusive. Just because someone doesn't think one way automatically means they think a certain way.

And again, how do you explain the Muslim Templars who were assassinated in ACI? You said the writers wouldn't dare do that to Islam but they did it in the first game.

Based on your definition of "attack" I mean.

joshoolhorst
01-12-2018, 10:38 PM
If that text appears very long to you then your obviously reading this on your phone, fair enough. I disagree with what you say and i feel you say it because you truly think the writers had some depth other than trying to make one think of these eras within a certain frame of mind. They dabbled in something they had no clue about


What? the two aren't mutually exclusive. Just because someone doesn't think one way automatically means they think a certain way.

And again, how do you explain the Muslim Templars who were assassinated in ACI? You said the writers wouldn't dare do that to Islam but they did it in the first game.

Based on your definition of "attack" I mean.

I have to agree with this. How does my post say in anyway that I think a certain way if I don't think the other way that awfull sounds like that every person on the planet has two mindsets but I assume you don't want to say that.

Also because I don't have time doesn't OBVIOUSLY mean I am reading this on my phone, I just have as of right now limit time to be on this forum and I can only post once or twice a day right now and don't have time to read through everything and also if NOBODY cares about the ''philosophy'' than why are we even talking about it in the first place for so far I read you take the hole religion way the wrong way in the games and if you want to stay away from the philosophy FINE I can see why and if one of the newer games decide to ignore it sure... But I do get worried when a game called ORIGINS stays away from the Assassin philosophy which can lead to inconsistent storytelling or just feeling disconnected from the other games.