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Bull-Dog.
02-05-2004, 05:39 AM
If the best pilots refuse to fly using the Wonder Woman View, why are there so few servers with this view locked.
Yes you can find one or two full real servers but what about locked cockpit and external views allowed, which I feel is a good compromise between the two extremes.

Bull-Dog.

Bull-Dog.
02-05-2004, 05:39 AM
If the best pilots refuse to fly using the Wonder Woman View, why are there so few servers with this view locked.
Yes you can find one or two full real servers but what about locked cockpit and external views allowed, which I feel is a good compromise between the two extremes.

Bull-Dog.

xenomage2000
02-05-2004, 05:52 AM
I would like to see a cockpit view that still had the directional indicator arrows found in the wonderwoman view. I like the realism of the cockpit (and I do better in it because its a good point of reference for looking around) but I like the arrows because they eliminate some of the tedium in finding engagements for those of us who want our action a little more fast and furious.
I think it the arrows should only function as they do when targets are far away, indicating the general direction and then vanishing when your heading aligns. They should not point to enemies or targets in the near vacinity becasue you should be able to see those youself.

NorrisMcWhirter
02-05-2004, 06:18 AM
Hi,

I've often thought that cockpit on directional indicators would be a good compromise/stepping stone between the two 'environments.'

I certainly would fly more cockpit on if this were the case because of what you say and also because:

a. 'Cockpit on' is not realistic because of the lack of peripheral vision.
b. Not everyone has trackir or similar.

Cheers,
Norris


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xenomage2000:
I would like to see a cockpit view that still had the directional indicator arrows found in the wonderwoman view. I like the realism of the cockpit (and I do better in it because its a good point of reference for looking around) but I like the arrows because they eliminate some of the tedium in finding engagements for those of us who want our action a little more fast and furious.
I think it the arrows should only function as they do when targets are far away, indicating the general direction and then vanishing when your heading aligns. They should not point to enemies or targets in the near vacinity becasue you should be able to see those youself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


================================================== ==========

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georgeo76
02-05-2004, 08:12 AM
wonder woman view is a crutch.

It's a crutch for ppl w/ low end systems, that need the extra FPS that gauges chew up. This is the most valid reason I'm aware of to use the no-pit view.

It's a crutch for ppl who don't or can't look around. Situational awareness is the most important skill of a fighter pilot and all those arrows just simulate SA.

WW view is a crutch for ppl who can't shoot well. Blind deflection is a privilege, not a right.

WW view is a crutch for ppl who can't fly well. full view of the runway is a luxury few WWII pilots enjoyed, even with their peripheral vision and ability to stick their heads out the window.

WW view is for ppl who play this game for different reasons than the FR pilots and theirs nothing wrong w/ that. I'm glad the arcade players are here.

I don't know why there has to be a debate about which kind of server is better

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BaldieJr
02-05-2004, 08:21 AM
Bah blech ick!

THE DAMNED HORSE IS DEAD.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
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(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

sambar
02-05-2004, 08:27 AM
go to ubi site and fly War Clouds Medium.
should suit your preferences

sambar

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull-Dog.:
If the best pilots refuse to fly using the Wonder Woman View, why are there so few servers with this view locked.
Yes you can find one or two full real servers but what about locked cockpit and external views allowed, which I feel is a good compromise between the two extremes.

Bull-Dog.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Slammin_
02-05-2004, 08:30 AM
I don't know about all these 'crutches' because I am just as effective with or w/o cockpit locked I think. Really, it just because a different game, depending on the settings and I think that is a good thing.

I don't know why this subject keeps creeping up because if you look at HL it becomes really obvious how the majority feel about locked cockpit-FR servers as compared to no-pit servers. I personally prefer conckpit on/locked but whenever I use those setting on the server, server usage goes from full almost all the time, to one or two people per day.

I really wish the next person that wishes to bring this topic up just take a quick look at HL first. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

BaldieJr
02-05-2004, 08:37 AM
Now that Oleg has the hooks set, he should remove the options that are arcadish.

Sure, there will be massive amounts of whining, and many diapers will be thrown, but in the end, it would make for a better game.

And the people who quit playing the game because their cockpit is enforced will find that they really did like quake more.

What says GoodKn1ght on this subject, I wonder?

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

BpGemini
02-05-2004, 08:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull-Dog.:
If the best pilots refuse to fly using the Wonder Woman View, why are there so few servers with this view locked.
Yes you can find one or two full real servers but what about locked cockpit and external views allowed, which I feel is a good compromise between the two extremes.

Bull-Dog.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Is this on HyperLobby?
I generally stick with my own group and we tend to fly Full Real (and never Wonder Women View).

I host at least once a week and host at Full Real with Pad Lock and Friendly Icons only.

It's my opinion that Wonder Women View, Directional Arrows and Externals are all arcadish.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.blitzpigs.com/forum/images/avatars/bp_geminiCombined.gif
IL-2 original P-39 vet soon to be P-63 vet.

J30Vader
02-05-2004, 08:50 AM
He can start with removing the refly option and the score board. So Quake like.

BaldieJr
02-05-2004, 08:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J30Vader:
He can start with removing the refly option and the score board. So Quake like.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heck yeah!

Or, he could just add "Head shot!" and "Double-kill!" notices.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

WOLFMondo
02-05-2004, 09:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
Now that Oleg has the hooks set, he should remove the options that are arcadish.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why? Some people like these options/ settings...and for a start its handy to have these for people new to the game, everyone was a n00b when ever they try something for the first few times. We can't all be instantly good at a game or all hold the same opinion (the world would be so much nicer thoughhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). The more options the better. If people want arcadish settings let them have it if it makes them happy.

Wolfgaming.net. Where the Gameplay is teamplay (http://www.wolfgaming.net)

TacticalSkirmsh
02-05-2004, 09:05 AM
WOW, someone actually used the "P" word (Padlock) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

While we could (and have) debated the problems with padlock, which hopefully will be resolved in the upcoming BoB, it is ironic that so many servers go from "full real" settings all the way through various levels of complexity to completely (arcade) settings, but almost all of them do not allow for the use of Padlock.

So is externals more realistic than padlock? I guess, most pilots must have jumped out of their planes to "scout." And these arrows are even worst then padlock in my opinion.

Also, while I dislike no-cockpit views, to each their own for sure (and I especially don't think Oleg should get rid of any options, make more so that more folks will buy/support this game/genre).

I'll have participated in a variety of different types of servers (though more selective now), and agree that better skill players are such on any setting.

I prefer a more realistic approach nowadays, and in saying so must however confess that I like an icon system (default ok, hybrid better), map icon and PADLOCK.

Yes padlock is not perfect, but for one without IRTracking it is a nice feature that tries (poorly?) to represent pilot head movement.

I think most gamers here and elsewhere enjoy a slightly less than full real experience. Games only exist when there's a market ($$), so why do we keep debating settings. Surely everyone here understands this by now, right?

Regards

BaldieJr
02-05-2004, 09:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
Now that Oleg has the hooks set, he should remove the options that are arcadish.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why? Some people like these options/ settings...and for a start its handy to have these for people new to the game, everyone was a n00b when ever they try something for the first few times. We can't all be instantly good at a game or all hold the same opinion (the world would be so much nicer thoughhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). The more options the better. If people want arcadish settings let them have it if it makes them happy.

http://www.wolfgaming.net<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll tell you why. Because the eternal question is:

Is this a GAME, or is it a SIMULATOR?

According to HL, it is a GAME. In a GAME, there is no reason to worry about realistic flight models, damage models, or balistics.

Its an oxymoron, really. People talk about 'realism' things like sound, visuals, performance envelopes, paint-schemes, and then throw all that realism out the window by flying infinite 15-G loops while chasing a blue/red piece of text.

My own gripe with arcade settings is how it allows the user to totally ignore all the hard work put into making this a sim.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

Slammin_
02-05-2004, 09:24 AM
Very extreme views there Baldie! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My point is, FB is many things, depending on how it's setup and played. I think that is great design.

I'm totally at a loss as to why FR folks have the NEED to try to convert everyone.

BpGemini
02-05-2004, 09:33 AM
Internal Padlock is one of the best tools of immersion this game has to offer. I know one of the arguments is Pad Lock picks up low flying aircraft that should be camouflaged, but realistically Peripheral vision and the human eye would be far better and capable of seeing a low flying aircraft than an In-cockpit/No-Padlock eye in this game ever could. I rarely have to use the Pad Lock feature that I allow in my servers. I can generally see the enemy anyways but I have a good PC and someone else joining my server may not be so lucky. Padlock trims the gap for that individual. Not to mention Padlock forces virtual Pilots to use more traditional tactics for surprise. Remember ‚"Internal‚"Ě Padlock, for the most part, only allows for you to see what the pilot could see, unlike external Padlock which (along with externals and Wonder Women View) is lame in my opinion.

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IL-2 original P-39 vet soon to be P-63 vet.

CO_Eagle_31stFG
02-05-2004, 09:48 AM
Well I guess you'd have to ask yourself a question (new to flying or not) did you want the best ww2 sim to get a more realistic feeling game, Or did you want to play an arcade game. If you wanted an arcade game which allows indicators to find people Just step down to a lower level sim such as CFS.
If you wanted this because you wanted an "as real as it gets" sim, then you might want to take more time and get to learn the game.
Most people buy this not only for the realism it offers but also because it humbles you if you fly the full real settings. Meaning you can kind of see how hard it was to be a pilot back during WW2, and how hard it was for those pilots to become ACEs.
Though it is considered both a game and sim it is the best on the market today because they left out much of the arcade stuff like those find me indicator arrows.

NorrisMcWhirter
02-05-2004, 09:54 AM
Hi,

Oleg doesn't need to remove any options to make the game less "arcadeish" or otherwise. Those features are there because people use them. This is clearly borne out by the existance of servers with those settings; those servers are rarely empty. It's also incredibly easy to avoid such servers if you don't like them.

It's down to personal preference. I actually find it much easier to land with the cockpit on. Conversely, I find it marginally easy to deflection shoot with the cockpit off. As I find padlock/hat switch a pain, I'd like to see the directional arrows on the cockpit view. My preference. Similarly, I don't dress up in a WW2 airforce uniform when flying and/or have an array of monitors embedded in $25x10^3 worth of Me109 cockpit (for immersion/realism reasons) to play FB.

Cheers,
Norris


================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam : http://cabinessence.cream.org/

More irreverence:
http://www.tvgohome.com/

Bull-Dog.
02-05-2004, 10:00 AM
WOW
It seems I have opened Pandoras Box.
A lot of people feel very strongly obout this subject. If I have opened an old would then I apologise.
I was just wanted to find out if my thoughts about the use of this view were correct. Having listened to the debate with interest I conclude that in more open servers one has to make the choice of what settings to use and live with it. Having made that choice he can judge his performance acordingly. That is fine my me.
I will still fly in these servers but my choice will be to stay in the pit, other pilots may not, that is there choice.
The point is that I now know that I can hold my own against another pilot with the same game settings.
So lets stop getting upset and have some fun.

Bull-Dog.

NorrisMcWhirter
02-05-2004, 10:09 AM
Hi,

I dunno if you were referring to me being upset but I wouldn't worry about that - takes a lot to upset me.

What you might be observing is my sarcastic nature ;-)

Cheers,
Norris

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull-Dog.:
WOW
It seems I have opened Pandoras Box.
A lot of people feel very strongly obout this subject. If I have opened an old would then I apologise.
I was just wanted to find out if my thoughts about the use of this view were correct. Having listened to the debate with interest I conclude that in more open servers one has to make the choice of what settings to use and live with it. Having made that choice he can judge his performance acordingly. That is fine my me.
I will still fly in these servers but my choice will be to stay in the pit, other pilots may not, that is there choice.
The point is that I now know that I can hold my own against another pilot with the same game settings.
So lets stop getting upset and have some fun.

Bull-Dog.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam : http://cabinessence.cream.org/

More irreverence:
http://www.tvgohome.com/

Bearcat99
02-05-2004, 10:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull-Dog.:
If the best pilots refuse to fly using the Wonder Woman View, why are there so few servers with this view locked.
Yes you can find one or two full real servers but what about locked cockpit and external views allowed, which I feel is a good compromise between the two extremes.

Bull-Dog.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Go to the VCF server in HL. Lots of fun with good folks.

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XyZspineZyX
02-05-2004, 10:41 AM
No need to apologize for broaching the subject. It's a VERY relevant topic.

It's a fact: WW is a crutch conveniently used by some to avoid phenomenon that simply were a part of the thing we're simulating.

You can say what you want about how (in)accurate cockpit-on is, visually, but at the end of the day, it's FAR more accurate than WW view, even with its limits and its warts.

The only "defense" WW fliers have is their "preference"...as if preference has anything to do with simulation. It's a weak intellectual argument, to explain away a weak approach to the sim.

As for the lot of the "arcade" features, they're there to make the game accessible to all levels of pilots, from arcade Quakers to sim-heads. Read: it's a marketing move that makes sense from a business perspective: it helps move more boxes.

To those who value simulation and realism, it's poison: it offers an "out" to low-fi gamers. It's not a surprise that the "easier" settings will draw more numbers on servers than the "harder" settings; it's human nature that many will take the easier route to gratification than one that requires more challenge.

So, upside: WW and arcade features make the community bigger. Downside: the added numbers are mostly low-fi gamers who'd otherwise be playing Quake or Doom.

BaldieJr
02-05-2004, 10:57 AM
I wonder how many arcade flyers play BF1942 with enemy tags on.

I just don't see a need to play FB with all these crutches turned on. Why not play some sim that was designed to be 'fantasy' scenario to begin with?

Oleg should have made a single flight model to fit every plane. There really is no need in being accurate when the overwhelming majority just wants to fly and kill stuff. Besides, 100% of all FM arguments would be erased.

Using logic, the most successfull server would be:

No cockpit
Icons on
Minimap path
Speedbar
Padlock
Skin download on (for customizing d00dz!)
External views
La-7's only
High-ping kick
Time-speed check enabled
Vulch-kick

All other server settings would be a total waste of time.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

Yum_Yum
02-05-2004, 11:06 AM
Hello http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I fully agree with Slammin and NorrisMcWerter and Bull-Dog to name a few http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I use whichever settings take my fancy but try to keep them varied to also keep my interest http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

No one can say they are any better or worse than anyone because of the settings they chose to play by http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif...could someone prove this ?

There is an expert for every combination of settings who is playing or waiting to be found... they are NO experts in all the combinations of settings.

I find that players are usualy good in the settings and the servers they like best,
Outside these they are less impressive and more vulnerable http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

I fly fully wonder woman view 80% of the time http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and 20% with full difficulty, and this about mirros the server availability in HL ..80% wonderwoman view and 20% more difficult settings.

There are lots of servers with settings bordering on full difficulty, but appearently not the players to fill them ?.

I can and do recognise skill I see in a variety of settings, but I don't think one better than another.

I say let people play the way they want in the settings they want.

yarbles67
02-05-2004, 11:15 AM
Full difficulty, full hard, full real, whatever the hell you want to call it, is an acquired taste. How many folks jumped into their first sim and played full real? I bet it's a tiny little fraction. I for one started playing flight sims the way I played arcade games like starfox, SW:Rogue Sqaudron, Decent I and II, etc.. It's all I knew. My first flight sim was Janes WWII fighters. I had all the toggles off except for unlimited ammo. The more I played and begane to embrace this new genre, the more confortable I became and upping the difficulty. Over time, I began to enjoy the extreme challenge in playing full-difficulty because in my mind it seems the closest approximation to what actual pilots may have had to deal with 60 years ago. We could agrue the merits of WW vs cockpit but that will prove nothing. It's an acquired taste and either you like or you don't. One method is not any better than another, it's what you enjoy. The bottom line is enjoying the game that way you want. Folks on eithe side of the debate sometimes loose site of that. Designers allow for customization for a reason http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Weather_Man
02-05-2004, 11:19 AM
This crutch business is nonsense. It is simply different, nothing more, nothing less. The great thing about this sim is it allows for different types of gameplay. Why people can't accept there are different flavors of fun is beyond me. The only "better" way to fly is the way you enjoy the most. Let's leave it at that.

Besides, there are some really, really good pilots who fly with cockpit off. It irks me to no end when people say no-cockpit flyers are not good pilots, not good shooters, not good situational awareness, not good tactics...Rubbish. Some of you so-called FR aces would get your hat handed to you in a no-cockpit server.

crazyivan1970
02-05-2004, 11:23 AM
There are quiet a few FR or near FR servers at HL lately, that`s why i removed VFC*HOST from full time hosting and went into COOP land, which was a success while lasted http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The problem is.. even that many claim that they fly nothing but full difficulty .. actually fly rather relaxed settings. Bottom line, i don`t care what you fly and how you fly it, as long as you not saying.. - oh i only fly fly FR, cause arcade for n00bs - just to make yourself look good... but who gives a damn http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

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VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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XyZspineZyX
02-05-2004, 11:26 AM
WeatherMan wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Besides, there are some really, really good pilots who fly with cockpit off<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, and they get a nice chunk of their kills with "under the nose" snapshots and HOs they couldn't hit with if the nose were in their field of vision, like they actually *were*.

And, they have heightened situational awareness that results from not having wings, fuselages or anything else to consider when they do area searches.

Fact is, WW view makes them artificially better. It's part of why they "choose" Wonder Woman view. It's convenient.

TacticalSkirmsh
02-05-2004, 11:38 AM
I guess what amazes most folks like me is why we even bother with this debate?

I mean, are we really upset with a game developer because he actually had the nerve to make a "feature-rich" product that we can choose what settings we want to individually use?

Or is it a matter that we feel we have the right to impose our preferences on others?

Or, finally, is it just our pride in believing we're so much better because of the manner in which we play this GAME (oops - sorry didn't mean to refer to its as a game; wait a minute, that's what it is though, right ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif)

I would certainly agree that those who play this simulation with "full realism" settings are pursuing the most skill sets necessary to play the game. And that it is the most rewarding way to play.

Playing with these so-called crutches will delay one's learning for sure (assuming one wishes to play on a harder level).

Nevertheless, the options allow for all kinds of things, including folks who only want to be arcade virtual pilots, assisting others in training sessions or hosting quick 'n dirty DF servers.

I think the basis of these endless debates is a lot of pride on the part of those who prefer to fly "full-real."

And, sorry, most feel that a realistic and fun experience can be achieved with certain settings enabled. I personally would include padlock, some type of icon system, speedbar, and map icon of your own plane for at least large maps.

I won't argue that externals, no-cockpit, and disabling any of the other settings is realistic (though they may be fun to some) - because they're not. But again, it's not my business to dictate anything to anyone with regards to gameplay choice.

The last skill that I may develop is plane recognition (perhaps then I'll join the "dark" side and impose my will on all others too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif), but until then I will continue to fly with some type of icon system, speedbar and hopefully padlock, believing that I am enjoying a realistically fun time!

In the end, hasn't Oleg decided this whole matter for us anyway?

[This message was edited by TacticalSkirmsh on Thu February 05 2004 at 10:46 AM.]

Slammin_
02-05-2004, 11:52 AM
Too late. I'm trading in my FB wings for CFS wings as was suggested so that I can quit stinkin up the place by not flying as I'm "supposed" to fly/sim/play.

BaldieJr
02-05-2004, 11:53 AM
Its like, the more of a point you make of it, the less likely someone is to actually listen.

This whole game is an oxymoron. I'm not implying anything about anyone. I'm merely saying: this game is an oxymoron.

Realistic FMs, DMs, or planes for that matter are a complete and utter waste of time.

The message is clear: the flightsim community is ******ed. A game developer should make eye-candy and only one flight model, if he wants to get rich (appeal to the masses), but as soon as he does that, the community whines "too arcade".

Secret Weapons over Cyberspace. Thats the game that needs to be made. Give it a handfull of easily painted generic fighters, a stats-keeping system, some cool server dialog (like MEGA RAMPAGE! DOUBLE KILL!) and tell the flightsim community "Hey, this is what you REALLY want anyways, now toss off!" and you'll see it sell like crazy to people who would otherwise keep playing UT.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

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crazyivan1970
02-05-2004, 11:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slammin_:
Too late. I'm trading in my FB wings for CFS wings as was suggested so that I can quit stinkin up the place by not flying as I'm "supposed" to fly/sim/play.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL Slamm, this is so you, going to extreams hehe http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

XyZspineZyX
02-05-2004, 11:58 AM
Well, Slammin', as Clint Eastwood said in "Magnum Force" all those years ago...

"A man's got to know his limitations..."

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Look: nobody's saying anybody's less of a person because he flies arcade.... just taking a conveniently easier road, or taking a less serious approach to the sim (or "game" if you MUST). It's OK to be arcade if you want, just be honest about it and admit it. Fly your "fun" flag as much as you want. Just don't pretend that you belong in the same class of sim fan as somebody who flies more realistically.

I often wonder why the low-fi folks take such *personal* umbrage when that's pointed out. Must be hitting a nerve....

Slammin_
02-05-2004, 12:00 PM
But I'm pretty good at F4 if that counts for anything http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Gotta luv it!

Yum_Yum
02-05-2004, 12:15 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If there are any full difficulty players here please stop reading and go to one of the full difficulty servers in HL (look for the empty one's), where you may be joined in an unspecified amount of time by a like minded player http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

noshens
02-05-2004, 12:21 PM
I don't understand wth some people have against options other people use. That's totaly nobodys business and you can always fly whatever server you want or create your own server with your own preferances. But to say that arcade is bad and FR is good is totaly wrong. And simulator goes under category of Games. Il2 is game and simulator. If you dont believe me go to any computer store and you'll find it in same section with other games.

LilHorse
02-05-2004, 12:25 PM
Okay. As some of you know by now, I am a FR devotee. I really don't have a problem with ppl who want to fly more medium style servers for whatever reasons they do. That may be fun for them but it isn't for me. For me FR is fun. Really, it is. I know that's hard for some ppl to understand. And that's the issue that steams me. All too often we hear from the medium settings camp that FR "isn't fun". Or "it's boring" or some other similar comments. Talk about predjudicing ppl towards certain settings. And why should any of you care? As was pointed out, the majority of servers of HL are more to your liking, so you're getting what you want. If the situation were reversed I guarantee you'd have medium settings ppl screaming how unfair it all is.

All I can say is thank God for VEF and the few FR servers that are there. If it were all medium settings then FB would be reduced to just another silly online computer game a la Xwing or whatever. And if that were the case I would no longer fly online.

BaldieJr
02-05-2004, 12:28 PM
Oh, I almost forgot... this belongs in this thread....

http://www.advertisingballoons.com/images/crackpipe1.jpg

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nickdanger3
02-05-2004, 12:36 PM
I think Wonder Woman view looks better.
Yeah it's easier.
Yeah the cockpits are amazing.
Yeah the programmers put a lot of work into simulating WWII fighter planes as realistically as possible.

But the landscape rendering is SO GOOD and flying without all that plane around you looks really cool. C'mon, admit it !

I play cockpit-on when I want to pratice my situational awareness, and I play Wonder Woman when I want to learn a plane while playing online. It's no fun to learn a plane offline against the AI.

The thing that cracks me up are servers that have cockpit-on WITH externals. LOL !

TacticalSkirmsh
02-05-2004, 12:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
Now that Oleg has the hooks set, he should remove the options that are arcadish.

Sure, there will be massive amounts of whining, and many diapers will be thrown, but in the end, it would make for a better game.

And the people who quit playing the game because their cockpit is enforced will find that they really did like quake more.

What says GoodKn1ght on this subject, I wonder?

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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</pre><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While some "non-FR" folks may be saying crazy things, with respect, it is these comments/attitudes that drive folks into heated debates.

I actually understand and can/would support BaldieJr and others with their position on the skill required and enjoyment obtained from FR flying.

Like I said, I'm inching my way into that spectrum of play myself. And yet some of the settings I enjoy can be argued ARE realistic.

For instance, a real pilot can identify planes better than the dot system shown in the game (icon system).

The human pilot can see his gauges better and more quickly then in the game (speedbar).

And the a human pilot would be able to better track via head movement and even body repositioning within the cockpit (padlock).

I know some folks have good counter arguments. I certainly without these features the game is harder (and new skills needed to address this higher difficulty setting).

But what I am trying to advance BaldieJr is that if my use of these features are deemed realistic approaches to gameplay (which I realize we don't argue on), is that my gameplay is realistic as the next guy. Your's, however, is harder - no question.

By the way, I did enjoy your strategies/hints with regards to plane recognition some time ago. I am thinking of starting my next campaign with no icons and possibly no speedbar (IL-2 has a good cockpit view for gauges). The increased difficulty will be a nice challenge.

This is probably more possible offline, whereas some servers have mixed plane sets and even 3 or more teams making it almost impossible of identifying a bandit from a distance (away from AAA fire).

J30Vader
02-05-2004, 02:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
the thing that cracks me up are servers that have cockpit-on WITH externals. LOL !<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And have padlock off. They always forget about external lock.

JG26Red
02-05-2004, 02:05 PM
This is so silly... if you dont like the FF servers (full fun) then create your own FR servers and leave us alone... geez...

Yum_Yum
02-05-2004, 02:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG26Red:
This is so silly... if you dont like the FF servers (full fun) then create your own FR servers and leave us alone... geez...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I like the terminology you used JG26Red "Full Fun" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Slammin_
02-05-2004, 02:17 PM
Oh man, that was a good one Red but I suspect it will create even more spew from the FR krew http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Slammin_
02-05-2004, 02:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nickdanger3:

The thing that cracks me up are servers that have cockpit-on WITH externals. LOL !<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You have to turn on externals if you are allowing flyable AI planes.

JG26Red
02-05-2004, 02:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slammin_:
Oh man, that was a good one Red but I suspect it will create even more spew from the FR krew http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i know man, but common, why complain about our Full Fun servers? just make a server! iam sure some have good PCs and can handle it... oh well...

p.s. i got kicked from your server the other night, must be my crappy cable, it seems to not keep a good connection at times.. grrr.. lol... iam i still banned? blocked? and no i dont cheat, cheaters dont get shot down 3 times in a row lol...

nickdanger3
02-05-2004, 02:23 PM
Slammin' : Yeah, I know, but in terms of the complaints about Wonder Woman views...

How many of those not flying the AI bombers are taking a peek on those cockpit-on servers? Be honest guys !

JG26Red
02-05-2004, 02:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nickdanger3:
Slammin' : Yeah, I know, but in terms of the complaints about Wonder Woman views...

How many of those not flying the AI bombers are taking a peek on those cockpit-on servers? Be honest guys !<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

honestly cockpit on or wonder woman, dont really matter because iam always in cockpit... it just so happens the servers i like tend ot have wonder open...

Slammin_
02-05-2004, 02:47 PM
[/QUOTE]

i know man, but common, why complain about our Full Fun servers? just make a server! iam sure some have good PCs and can handle it... oh well...

p.s. i got kicked from your server the other night, must be my crappy cable, it seems to not keep a good connection at times.. grrr.. lol... iam i still banned? blocked? and no i dont cheat, cheaters dont get shot down 3 times in a row lol...[/QUOTE]


Nope, not seeing you in a ban list so I assume it was just a ping kick.

Slammin_
02-05-2004, 02:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nickdanger3:
Slammin' : Yeah, I know, but in terms of the complaints about Wonder Woman views...

How many of those not flying the AI bombers are taking a peek on those cockpit-on servers? Be honest guys !<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I have a button on my HOTAS mapped to fly-by view, which os great for checking 6! I also have F2 mapped to another button, and my cursor on my throttle acts as a mouse to pan that view all around! My prop pitch and elevator trim have their own trim wheels.

So if my server is set up this way, know that if you join, I will be using these tools try to kill you!

p1ngu666
02-05-2004, 03:04 PM
indeed
i find fr tends to simulate a normal pilots work.
&lt;frguys&gt;yay!
cos most of the time u dont run into any enemy and its abit boring flying around, lookin for action
perhaps im just unlucky, but i prefer ff servers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
fr ppl can shorten that to ffs http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BaldieJr
02-05-2004, 03:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG26Red:
This is so silly... if you dont like the FF servers (full fun) then create your own FR servers and leave us alone... geez...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because we like you and want to play the game with you.

What the hell is wrong with you arcaders?

When are you people going to start putting forth a little bit of effort? I see the same people in arcade servers that were there when I first started playing over a year ago.

I don't want to hear "I don't have the time to play FR: it takes too long to find people!" when some of you are on HL 6 hours a day.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

C'mon guys, we just want what you want: something to friggen shoot at!

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

XyZspineZyX
02-05-2004, 03:21 PM
I actually like the FF or "full fun" descriptor.

It's very descriptive, although "at the expense of realism" would be even more to the point.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif g,d,r

BM357_Raven
02-05-2004, 03:47 PM
Baldie wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

Now that Oleg has the hooks set, he should remove the options that are arcadish.

Sure, there will be massive amounts of whining, and many diapers will be thrown, but in the

end, it would make for a better game.

And the people who quit playing the game because their cockpit is enforced will find that

they really did like quake more.

What says GoodKn1ght on this subject, I wonder?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I tend to disagree with this statement (not sure how committed to it you are Baldie), but

rather I tend to agree with this group:

Slammin_
WOLFMondo
CO_Eagle_31stFG
NorrisMcWhirter
TacticalSkirmsh
Yarbles67
Weather_Man
cazyivan1970

and I especially relate to LilHorse's post


who all appear to be a part of the camp that says many options are good and not everyone

should conform to "The Way of FR." Which of course is the only way... Whoops that was

snobish.. Sorry, retraction..

I am also a realist about the major function and raison d'etre of this game; to make money

for the design team, UBI, and retail chains around the world by selling as many games as

possible. And each time, if they are smart, they will devise ways to make even more money,

such as expansion packs and third party licensing agreements to make add-on's. And shame on

us if we complain about spending money on something we have convinced ourselves we need. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

By that's a tangent.

Slammin_ wote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I'm totally at a loss as to why FR folks have the NEED to try to convert everyone.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which I can say from my own FR POV is that I wanna convert as many people as possible to

"The Way" because we need a higher population of people in Full Switch games. I call it "The

Way" because it is the Tao of FB to fly Full Switch.

I also want to make a statement that is really more of a guess. And I am sure it has been

stated before, but when you play FB in No-Cockpit you notice that it is one of the most

arcadish 'gamey' looking sims on the market. Now why would Oleg design it to be so

cartoon-ish do you think? I speculate that he realized that in order to make the game

marketable, he had to allow for this type of setting, but (again total speculation) I bet he

decided that if people were going to play an arcade he was going to make it look like an

arcade..

THE PEOPLE I WANT TO CONVICE OVER TO FULL SWITCH ARE THE ONES WHO PROFESS TO SEEK THE MOST

REALISM, NOT THE GUYS WHO ARE LOOKING FOR A FUN ACTION-PACKED VIDEO GAME (This is my

contribution to the Guiness Book of Obnoxious Statements).

That being said everyone knows I am a loud-mouth advocate for Full Switch. I know it has

limitations and is a problem for people with limited time for which FB. I dont see a point

in the type of player who is looking more for a casual game than a full time hobby. Nor

should the basic dogfigher who is-- as georgeo76 points out a simply bloodthirsty glutton

for action-- bother to invest in FR. If you are not looking to think or strategize too much

FR is a real bumber. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I also recognize that people with slow systems might suffer by the extra tax contributed

with cockpit and so forth, but, I can also say that if you are really hard-core about FB and

you really want to take it to the highest level of perceivable realism, then you owe it to

yourself to bite the bullet and click all the switches and light the board up.

If you have problems scanning the sky then you can do what I used to do before I bought

trackIR which was use the mouse to look around. It takes 1 month to perfect the

'mouse-trick' (at least it did for me). I know that 90% of the people on the forums who shot

this technique down did not put in their time to learn it. Then tell me why over hald my

team is not only comitted to 'mouse-look' but actually prefers it to hat switch. The guys

who complained about it in the beginning kept asking me how I always knew where they were

and they were always losing me. I would reply that is was because I had learned the art of

mouse-look and rarely lost sight of them and that their hatswitch gave them a disadvantage.

Now that they have all been won over, i find that each of them is not only harder to fight,

but they get more kills on me..

And some people would say that TrackIR people have the advantage: THIS IS NOT TRUE. I can

fly better with the mouse-trick in tight combat than I can with trackIR. TrackIR is just

much cooler. As one pilot once said "it puts you in the plane.." (AKA_Mechy). And it makes

flying around a helluva lot more fun. It just makes the game better. And for mouse-tricksers

it releases your left hand (mine back to my CH Throttle). That's a nice thing.

Then there are people who use the hat in FR. All I can say is hats off to you boyz. I needed

more control over my visuals, but if it ain't broke.... I think these guys do fine if they

operate on a more linear plane and BnZ, but if the accidentally get caught in a scissors

battle, then they are up the creek a bit.. Someone can argue this point, I am sure.

Forget the debate about P/L being more real, or icons being more real, or monitors and

resolutions etc, etc,.. It's all rubbish FULL SWITCH IS THE MOST REAL!

The primary issue with Full Switch is that yaks and some other planes have a compass which

is terribly hard to read.. And that kind sux for those pilots.. I understand. I can get by

in the Yak by using the sun and using VFR, but it's a real workout, nonetheless, and not

worth selecting on really large maps, imo, when instruments become really important, but on

the smaller maps, it's managable.

So if you are playing FB with the goal of trying to get the best sense of what it was really

like to be a WWII fighter pilot, then goto full switch. IF FULL REALISM is not your goal, or

you simply cannot manage to find FR fun and dont want to deal with the hours of practice it

takes just to get mediocre at it, then stick with the settings that make you happy. But

forget the argument about P/L being more real. This statement is false. I know this will

hurt me in the primaries by saying this but FR is FR (or at least the closest to it).

I know some of the Partial Switch boyz really take offense to this kind of statement (esp.

those who really want to believe they are flying at the highest level of realism). All I can

say is that I am sorry, you guys can throw in all the analogies of real life and arguments

of monitor size or visibility you want.. but in truth it is most likely YOU GUYS (the one's

who are truly passionate about your arguments) who are Full Switch pilots and dont even know

it. Either that, or you just dont have the patience it takes to fly FR to begin with.... And

that is a legitamate excuse--beleive me, it really is...

And there are many full switch pilots who take a break to fly at other settings. If you like

Full Screen sometimes, or P/L or just wanna get some quick 15 minute action before dinner

then jump into an icons game... So just because a guy is a FR pilot doesnt mean he can cross

over sometimes. But when you finally become a FR vfp, that is when you will say, "yeah, ya

know, Raven's right this is more realistic."

If you like I will provide a bunch of sources that you can order or pick up at the library

that will support my cause.. Lemme see if I have on in my car... brb,,, ok ,this one is

perfect:

VIII Fighter Command at War 'Long Reach'
compiled by Michael O'Leary
Publised by Osprey Publishing 2000
ISBN 1 85532 907 7

Just gonna flip a couple of pages and you tell me if any of this stuff would really help you

at in with your current game settings. Ok, here's an argument against the 'realism of

icons':

"In any egagements, offensive or defensive, take the advantage of favorable conditions--

clouds, sun, etc. Launch your attacks from up-sun, when the enemy aircraft least expect it,

if possible..."

-pg 31 Lt Col Horace Craig of the 56th writes to the cadets back home

"It is my opinion that the element of surprise when making an attack is the greatest

advantage that you can have. Most attacks are mad from above and should definitely be

planned so that you know before starting down that you will close on the enemy from such a

position that you will destroy him,......if you plan your attack right the enemy will

seldom see you coming until you open fire."

-Maj Gerald Johnson CO of the 63rd FS of the 56th Fighter Group, pg 33

"In my oppinion, aeiral combat isnt half of what it is shown to be in the movies. Most of us

have some sort of idea formed in our heads when we finally get into a combat theatre. We

like to think that the battle will assume proportions equal to those of the movies. You know

how it is -- one pilot sees the other, they both grit their teeth to beat a hell, and

finally the dedly combat begins with violent manoeuvering by both parties. This field of

thought is entirely erroneous. The combat usaully takes place at a hell of a speed -- the

enemy aeroplane is only seen for a few seconds.....Even if he is not surprised, he still

cant see into the sun -- so the chances of getting to him before he can make a turn are

pretty darned good. Last, close right up his old rudder and let go. Then he'll be a dead

Hun...."

- Maj Walker Mahurun 63rd FS/ 56th FG

"It's much easier to come home tired with a sore neck from looking constantly in every

direction and from constantly skidding sideways to look behind and around you than it is to

leave the thing you sit on over enemy territory. Once in a while it is good business to

put a wingtip ip just over the sun and look around it, too. Often there is pleanty of

company there...."

-Capt Robert Johnson 62nd Fs/ 56th FG

"Always turn into the attack if you see it coming. If the Hun is right on your tail do

something quick and violent. As one of our pilots once said when the first he was aware of

the Hun were the traces going by his shoulder, 'I put the stick in one corner and the rudder

in the other. I dont know what happened, but when I came out the Hun wasnt tehre any

longer.'

If there is a clowd hanfy, use it, but change your course once inside..... If you are

attacked on the deck you are in a bad spot [he flew a P-47], and you can either turn into

the attack or try to outrun them. If the Hun is in shooting range, always keep the ball

going in each corner -- never give him an opportunity to line up his sites. Remember this

slows you up though.

[u]Most successful offensive action comes with superior speed and altitude coupled with

surprise. Always use the sun or blind spots to obtain surprise....."

-Lt Col Harry Dayhuff 78th FG

Terms like "hide in the clouds" and "attack from the sun" and "attack from above to surpise

them" and use the "enemy's blind spots against him," "keep your head on a swivel" are all

terms that readily arise in most of the documents collected in this book.


Here are some excerpts from Bud Anderson's book To Fly and Fight:

"My leader is pulling out of his dive now, closing in on the Fockewulf, and I'm right under

his butt, making sure I dont lose him.

'Mustang! Mustang! There's one on your tail!'

Not 'Red Two.' nothing specific, just 'Mustang! Mustang!' rattling in our earphones like

death.

Every Mustang in that part of German wobbles, it's driver throwing a frantic glance over his

shoulder. I look around. Nothing...."

Then 'Mustang, Mustang!' is repeated three times and Andy cant figure out if it is a warning

for his six or whether someone is mistaking his plane for a 109 following close behind his

leader... (pg 82-83)

Then Bud maneouvers to shake an alleged enemy off his six and gets separated from his

leader:

....suddenly I notice I'm alone over Germany....No. There's a plane in the distance. Ours or

theirs? I slide up closer, warily. It's clearly a mustang [planform training], alone, like

me. I fly up and join him. Against all laws of probability the plane is my leader's."

Oh this is an interesting one just a few pages ahead. I read this to my squad to make the

point that it was hard to stay formed up even back then and that full switch brings this

dimension to fruition:

"It was difficult business to follow some veteran pilot banking and twisting and going like

hell. particularly when there is the distraction of people trying to sneak up behind you and

kill you. When you shake the reigns on a Mustang and give it its head, you are traveling

at more then seven miles per minute. And if you are going in one direction and the man you

are supposed to be glued to is going in the other, you can be miles apart very quickly. Lots

of pilots got lost on their early missions. And when you got lost the odds rose dramatically

that you wouldnt get home." (p 80)

I'll try to provide more excerpts supporting my argument and I readily welcome an engagement

of debate. I know this topic is kind of weathered at this point, but it is obvious that it

will continue to be debated for some time. I believe whole-heartedly that there is NO RIGHT

WAY to enjoy FB. But I do insist that Full Switch is the ultimate expression of the

difficulties and confusion faced by every fighter pilot during the war. That is my argument;

that Full Real is as close as it gets. That if you subscribe to the school of thought that

anything less than Full Switch is more real, you are mistaken. Nonetheless, I hope that

people will engage in the debate and argue against me and prove me wrong.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-Signed the "Obnoxious FR Snob," aka Raven

TrackIR, It's like this yall'
http://www.bm357.com/highspeed_bm357_sig.gif (http://bm357.com)
Blazing Magnums 357th VFG
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Yum_Yum
02-05-2004, 03:52 PM
I agree with the terminology of "Full Fun" What about "Nearly Real" for the other gamers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

XyZspineZyX
02-05-2004, 04:26 PM
Blazing, you have it pretty much right, except:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think these guys do fine if they
operate on a more linear plane and BnZ, but if the accidentally get caught in a scissors
battle, then they are up the creek a bit.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There ain't many that can beat me and my low-tech hat switch in a scissors, I don't care what they're using for visuals. "Get caught??" I welcome a good scissors fight, especially against somebody relying on padlock. I almost NEVER get "lost in my views". If I can't see the enemy, it's because he's parked at my 6 (and then it's likely 'game over' anyway).

NorrisMcWhirter
02-05-2004, 04:29 PM
Hi,

How about looking at this from a different angle (pardon the pun about views). It could be argued that anyone flying "FR", with something like trackir, is actually reducing themselves to something approaching the Wonder Woman view.

Why?

Because you are using a tool that not everyone else has access to (or wants to use, for that matter) in order to obtain an advantage. i.e. You have improved your situational awareness OVER someone else who does not have this item . And yes, the trackir argument can be logically extended to Wonder Woman views but such a device would have far less of an impact due to the arrow cues.

It would be interesting for someone to have a poll (someone else, please - I cannot be arsed) about how many people use track ir in conjunction with FR and contrast this with the usage in WW servers, adjusting for the previously stated bias, of course.

Similarily, how about people who use teamspeak to raise the SA of their team-mates in FR? Is this WW view++ ? Contrast that against the occasional flier who doesn't live in a team and wants some quick gratification whilst retaining his SA.

That aside, I really do not understand why people try to make out that they are 'somehow better' because they fly FR and it is some kind of sacrilige to fly with WW view. If that is what you think, amuse yourself with your elitist superiority and please bathe in my inadequacy at flight while you jaunt around for hours looking for a suspicious pixel against the background of some trees; by that time, I'll have had my flying fun and be heading off into the real world (most likely the pub).

In my opinion, the bottom line is that if Oleg and his team felt so offended about people 'de-skilling the sim' by using WW view, they would have not included it. Then again, it would possibly be commercial suicide NOT to include the easier settings. As an example of this, how many people do you see come into here and say, 'I'm new to flight sims, in particular, IL-2 and I cannot even take off cos the plane goes off to the left/right/flips over on takeoff/what's the klaxon noise when I get off the ground/how do I get the wheels up on the I16/my engine cuts out if I push forward on the stick' or similiar. How many of these people take their copies of FB/Il-2 back to the shop because they cannot handle it at first?

More importantly, how many of these people take their copies back to the shop WITHOUT even making it into here? An answer to this could be, 'I don't care - we don't need people like that anyway - they are &lt;insert FPS shooter title of your choice&gt; lamers, anyway'.

Fair enough. - ask UBI and 1C if they need people like that, though. And, in turn, ask yourself that, if 1C and UBI make enough cash, they might even invest in a next generation flight sim.

I know that people I have tried to introduce to FB have complained that it was too difficult at first and have not persevered. From that, maybe the easy settings are not easy enough? Extend this further and you could say that it is a fantastic commercial decision to include the advanced settings; after all, we all would have probably moved on from IL2 if it were too *easy* in the end.

Il2 is a challenge but we can all challenge ourselves at our different levels as we please. I think UBI and 1C got it spot on with the settings we have (apart from maybe arrows in cockpit) because we can pick and choose as we feel on the day.


Cheers,
Rambling Norris

PS: Can someone from the FR community tell me what to have for dinner tomorrow evening? I had thought about something easy, like some pasta with pesto followed by some rice pudding but maybe you think a lobster chowder followed by caramelised truffle creme brulee might be more to your..sorry...my liking?


================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam : http://cabinessence.cream.org/

More irreverence:
http://www.tvgohome.com/

RedDeth
02-05-2004, 04:42 PM
only about 1 percent of people fly full real. maybe 5 percent in lobby on some days. WHY? not because its harder. FULL REAL is not harder. its just different.and those like baldiejr and goodknight that say otherwise just like trying to make themselves sound like better pilots to everyone.i know for a fact that both of those guys are less than mediocre pilots.thats a fact.
BUT...full real means you have to fly around for 30 to 45 minutes to find one enemy. ive gone into full real servers and went over to the enemy base and flew around in circles more than once with no contact for 30 minutes straight because people are all over the map like blind men with baseball bats on a giant plain trying to have a gang fight. it takes forever. 99 percent of us want to get on and have some fun for 2 hours not just get in two 1 v 1 dogfights in that timeframe. yes sometimes its different and more exciting but not usually.
and people like to look at the planes in flight and watch them fly around. thats half the fun. i can fly full real . i can fly no cockpit. but i prefer to have a little more action. so i go cockpit off. if you think im less of a pilot for it come fly me . its actually MUCH harder to win a dogfight with cockpit off. you cant just sneak in and get a potshot off. you have to actually dogfight in arcade servers where in fullreal you just fly up high and look for a dot and dive and take a pot shot. the ultimate b and z ers paradise.
good pilots dont fly fullreal. GOOD PILOTS win all the time. in any flight sim they play and in all settings. these fullreal chest pounders can not fly arcade settings at all. thats why they go full real. they cant win in cockpit off. this isnt for the fullreal pilots that are silent this is for the loud chestbeater fullreal pilots. if you dont like arcade games then go back to your blind folds and baseball bats and go run around for a few hours. but stop slamming arcade games.

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509034.jpg

crazyivan1970
02-05-2004, 04:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yum_Yum:
I agree with the terminology of "Full Fun" What about "Nearly Real" for the other gamers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I prefer "almost real" hehe

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
How about looking at this from a different angle (pardon the pun about views). It could be argued that anyone flying "FR", with something like trackir, is actually reducing themselves to something approaching the Wonder Woman view.

Why?

Because you are using a tool that not everyone else has access to (or wants to use, for that matter) in order to obtain an advantage. i.e. You have improved your situational awareness OVER someone else who does not have this item . And yes, the trackir argument can be logically extended to Wonder Woman views but such a device would have far less of an impact due to the arrow cues.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, i own TIR and you know what, it doesn`t give me any advantage, hell i rarely use it. Mouse or hat-switch does it just fine for me with combination of keyboard. The only time when TIR can be advantage... is for people who`s slow on keyboard and with bad coordination. It just a really cool device to have, no more then that.

Does the fact that i know keyboard by heart is considered as an advantage over someone too?
This all topic is really dead horse... so dead, that people already run out of arguments and just saying something for the sake of saying it. Fly what you want, who cares. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

BaldieJr
02-05-2004, 04:45 PM
You can't blame it on TrackIR. There are a bazillion ways to manipulate the in-game view. TiR just happens to be one.

I've seen tracks made by people who use a trackball to view and they were FAR better than I am, even with TiR.

You're argument is the root of the problem: noone wants to invest time into learning to play harder settings. By all accounts, TiR should be considered a 'n00b toy' as it makes things easy for the newcomer, but a hat-switch veteran can still lay the TiR newbie out.

I'm not good at this game at all. Slowly, I get better, but it gets a bit aggravating when everyone just wants to turn endless loops at 55 Gs.

I like the action too: getting into a hard-core TnB (not because you want to, but because the 30-minute fight put you both at that disadvantage) can be hard-core fun, but jumping into a game and being placed directly into that situation, EVERY TIME, gets freaking old.

And if you can't find a decent FR server, you have to wait in line to play on an arcade server thats too full to offer a stutter-free game.

A complete waste of resources on the part of the community. 4 laggy servers with 98% players is just dumb.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

p1ngu666
02-05-2004, 04:48 PM
ta for the blue jam stuff btw http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
i used to stay up to listen to the first series i think
12 till 2, the weekday uber slot on radio1 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

XyZspineZyX
02-05-2004, 05:10 PM
I laugh at the idea that the arcadists are trying to **** TrackIR (which, from what I've seen is the best approximation of real vision as I've heard of), while trying to puff up WW view, which conveniently ignores several physical realities (like, um, wings, canopies, fuselages, noses and control panels).

Talk about "The Emperor Has No Clothes".

Equally funny (and ignorantly misinformed) is their ranting about their "right" to fly around and find entire gaggles of enemy planes to fire at with their unlimited ammo within 5 minutes of wheels up. Heaven forbid that the sim doesn't *show* them where to fly, and they have to (shudder) LOOK for enemy, like the real pilots had to do. Jeez, can't be bothered to do that. Now, I readily agree that the "full difficulty" setting with no icons whatsover approximates flying with cataracts; but to say that spotting and searching isn't a part of what we're trying to simulate is just ludicrous. A perfect parallel to WW view: a totally unfounded solution to a challenge that can be overcome with a little effort.

It all comes down to "convenience" and the "right to have mindless fun" for the arcadists. Figures, after all that's what "games" are for, and that's all that the gamer looks to get out of them.

It really is their loss that they don't understand what you can get out of a decent SIM.

Snoop_Baron
02-05-2004, 05:45 PM
BaldieJr
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I wonder how many arcade flyers play BF1942 with enemy tags on.

I just don't see a need to play FB with all these crutches turned on. Why not play some sim that was designed to be 'fantasy' scenario to begin with?

Oleg should have made a single flight model to fit every plane. There really is no need in being accurate when the overwhelming majority just wants to fly and kill stuff. Besides, 100% of all FM arguments would be erased.

Using logic, the most successfull server would be:

No cockpit
Icons on
Minimap path
Speedbar
Padlock
Skin download on (for customizing d00dz!)
External views
La-7's only
High-ping kick
Time-speed check enabled
Vulch-kick

All other server settings would be a total waste of time.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You think you are being logical? Is it so hard to understand that some people like to fly with all the flight model options at max but with unrealistic view settings such as externals on because they enjoy it? Your supposed logic makes absolutely no sense.

The game doesn't have to be all or nothing. It is perfectly logical to enjoy something between "pure fantasy" and "pure reality." In fact no matter what you do FB will always be somewhere in the middle.

You guys remind me of a bunch of Catholic school nuns http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm glad Oleg doesn't follow your "logic". I really enjoyed an unlimited rocket only IL2 dogfight I hosted a few months ago. And the I153 vs I153 (oh my good russians vs russians but that never happened!! oh the horror) fight in stormy weather...

:FI:Snoop Baron
http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

BfHeFwMe
02-05-2004, 06:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
I laugh at the idea that the arcadists are trying to **** TrackIR (which, from what I've seen is the best approximation of real vision as I've heard of), while trying to puff up WW view, which conveniently ignores several physical realities (like, um, wings, canopies, fuselages, noses and control panels).

Talk about "The Emperor Has No Clothes".

Equally funny (and ignorantly misinformed) is their ranting about their "right" to fly around and find entire gaggles of enemy planes to fire at with their unlimited ammo within 5 minutes of wheels up. Heaven forbid that the sim doesn't *show* them where to fly, and they have to (shudder) LOOK for enemy, like the real pilots had to do. Jeez, can't be bothered to do _that_. Now, I readily agree that the "full difficulty" setting with no icons whatsover approximates flying with cataracts; but to say that spotting and searching isn't a part of what we're trying to simulate is just ludicrous. A perfect parallel to WW view: a totally unfounded solution to a challenge that can be overcome with a little effort.

It all comes down to "convenience" and the "right to have mindless fun" for the arcadists. Figures, after all that's what "games" are for, and that's all that the gamer looks to get out of them.

It really is their loss that they don't understand what you can get out of a decent SIM.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now there's two of us laughing. So whats the difference between red and blue icons and an arrow? Wait, don't tell me, you have to search for icons, kind of hard to find them, isn't it? ROTFLMAO

TacticalSkirmsh
02-05-2004, 06:14 PM
A very lengthy discussion with a lot of great insight. And someone actually had a longer post then me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Very nice article by the way.

With regards to how good BaldieJr is or isn't certainly doesn't take away from his convictions and personal insight in the game. In any event, I'm sure his better than me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Bottom line with regards to trackIR, and "arcadish" settings that enhance visibility in general, is if the enemy has the energy advantage and firing solution, yes, I suppose you can see it coming longer, but is that really a good thing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif?

Tactical engagement remains at the heart of the game, regardless of the settings. FR is harder but less fun for most.

Thread is now locked. Oh, I'm not a moderator http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

:FI:TacticalSkirmish

BM357_Raven
02-05-2004, 06:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

How about looking at this from a different angle (pardon the pun about views). It could be argued that anyone flying "FR", with something like trackir, is actually reducing themselves to something approaching the Wonder Woman view.

Why?

Because you are using a tool that not everyone else has access to (or wants to use, for that matter) in order to obtain an advantage. i.e. You have improved your situational awareness OVER someone else who does not have this item . And yes, the trackir argument can be logically extended to Wonder Woman views but such a device would have far less of an impact due to the arrow cues. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


First off and most importantly I think lobster bisque followed by caramelized truffle creme brulee sounds better. Second, I like your argument over-all and that you poke a little fun at the whole thing to bring it down a bit. I think the trackIR point is a valid point to bring up to some degree. However, I believe that people who are proficient with the mouse can achieve a higher degree of accuracy than a trackIR pilot. Having said that, my buddy Dart uses the hat switch and this cat's on top of the game big time. BM357_OnYerSix uses the mouse and is one of our best dogfighters.. So it's not like you have to own trackIR to be proficient at full real, nor does it mean you will be better.

For example, I have the CH Rudder pedals. Now the fact that you dont, does not put you at any disadvantage. The pedals, I think, make flight maneouvers a little more smooth for me and make taxiing and take-off more fun. But, it also makes it harder to shoot the enemy because now you are having to use your hand and two feet to aim. So, not necessarily does the added equipment make you a better pilot... It does, however, imo make the game better...but that's another story.



Red wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

good pilots dont fly fullreal. GOOD PILOTS win all the time. in any flight sim they play and in all settings. these fullreal chest pounders can not fly arcade settings at all. thats why they go full real. they cant win in cockpit off. this isnt for the fullreal pilots that are silent this is for the loud chestbeater fullreal pilots. if you dont like arcade games then go back to your blind folds and baseball bats and go run around for a few hours. but stop slamming arcade games.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am definitely a Full Real chest pownder.. There's no argument there. I also promise that I have only had a total of about 2 hours max with cockpit off. In fact, I bet I am lousy at it at the moment and you had better be able to turn circles around me... I dunno... So I concede in that respect. And I could work on getting good at it. When CFS3 came out I managed to rise to the top over there pretty quick and it seems to me that there's not a whole lotta difference between FB Full Screen and CFS3 Full Screen. Is there? Didnt feel like it. I think I just got myself in trouble http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif.

But my whole argument is not about how skilled a person is or how much better one way of playing is over the other. I am not interested in those trivial arguments.

Instead, I am after the population out there who IS skilled and who somehow are being convinced by the opposite Full Screen P/L chest beaters that Full Switch is bogus because they somehow think that FR means NO ACTION.

Listen. I promise that in a room full of two or four people there will be ZERO action. Especially, if all or some of the pilots are new to Full Switch. But when the room fills up the whole tide turns.

I can tell the people who have very limited experience in FR settings because they always talk about no action, no fun, no enemies, etc..The stand out to me in particular..

But I wanna make it clear that I really think the ability issue is totally moot. I gotta big head and think I'm a hotshot pilot, but that doesnt mean that there aren't dozens of others out there who will clean my clock..

And anyone who is good at Full Screen (notice i never say Wonder Woman--never have..sounds insulting, I think) will eventually get good at Full Switch. Just takes practice.

What I hope for is not to debate which way is better (although, for me it is definitely FR), but more to leave the academic arguments and focus on the population who is TRULY interested in trying to get as close as possible to the kind of action they read about in biographies and autobiographies.

Just pick up a fighter pilot's book and read the thing. Then ask yourself what it is about your settings that dont quite jive with what you read.

For example, my origins are in CFS.. I never flew in cockpit. We always had icons. In cfs2, one guy on the whole team flew cockpit and I thought he was nuts because it was such a disadvantage. We had icons, and P/L and the whole works.

Sometimes we'd fly nofun, but that was like once a week or so. Then as I started getting more and more involved and started wanting to know the tricks of fighter pilots I picked up books-- like the one I took excerpts from.

And you know what? I would think "wow, they really had it tougher than we do in this game.. (aside from the obvious of real death).. because they had to worry about using the sun and the clouds, and being able to see behind them, and worry about all these little things there really didnt seem to be an issue at the time."

And I am really sorry I had so much problems loading IL2 Sturm. I wish I had it running the first time it came out. But I am really grateful to Oleg for making those issue come alive. It's so close to what I read that it impresses me all the time. I can't think of a better sim on the market that FB (for me anyhow), and if it weren't for its PLAYABILITY at Full Real (What I prefer to call Full Switch to be more politically correct), then I dare say it would not be as great-- in my oppinion of course...

Look forward to reading responses from my adversaries.. S~

TrackIR, It's like this yall'
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DaBallz
02-05-2004, 06:33 PM
Friends don't ler Friends fly full real.
Cockpit optional rules.

Da...

Slammin_
02-05-2004, 07:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
only about 1 percent of people fly full real. maybe 5 percent in lobby on some days. WHY? not because its harder. FULL REAL is not harder. its just different.and those like baldiejr and goodknight that say otherwise just like trying to make themselves sound like better pilots to everyone.i know for a fact that both of those guys are less than mediocre pilots.thats a fact.
BUT...full real means you have to fly around for 30 to 45 minutes to find one enemy. ive gone into full real servers and went over to the enemy base and flew around in circles more than once with no contact for 30 minutes straight because people are all over the map like blind men with baseball bats on a giant plain trying to have a gang fight. it takes forever. 99 percent of us want to get on and have some fun for 2 hours not just get in two 1 v 1 dogfights in that timeframe. yes sometimes its different and more exciting but not usually.
and people like to look at the planes in flight and watch them fly around. thats half the fun. i can fly full real . i can fly no cockpit. but i prefer to have a little more action. so i go cockpit off. if you think im less of a pilot for it come fly me . its actually MUCH harder to win a dogfight with cockpit off. you cant just sneak in and get a potshot off. you have to actually dogfight in arcade servers where in fullreal you just fly up high and look for a dot and dive and take a pot shot. the ultimate b and z ers paradise.
good pilots dont fly fullreal. GOOD PILOTS win all the time. in any flight sim they play and in all settings. these fullreal chest pounders can not fly arcade settings at all. thats why they go full real. they cant win in cockpit off. this isnt for the fullreal pilots that are silent this is for the loud chestbeater fullreal pilots. if you dont like arcade games then go back to your blind folds and baseball bats and go run around for a few hours. but stop slamming arcade games.

http://www.fighterjocks.net home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509034.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm dropping out of this convo. Nothing, well not much else to add. Could not have compiled a better response to this nonsense even if I tried.

I will fly what ever friggin way I want to at any given time! One thing is for certain though, when I want to fly FF, I do have plenty of company. If I want to fly FR, my choices are very limited. :-(

We need to wonder why this is I think, since I, me, personally prefer cockpit on/no externals, but there are not too many choices out there to fly this way (lotta empty servers with those settings tho). Host my preferred settings? Great idea! = Empty Server

I think it could be that the settings that make for finding and engaging the enemy as quickly as possible fit our schedule better than the settings that simulate being away from your family for hours at a time searching for the bad guys.

Killing Bad Guys = FUN!

Kill them all!

JG77Hawk_9
02-05-2004, 07:54 PM
People don't have to use Track IR you know to get panning viewing around the cockpit in FR. Try NewView or if you can map mouseview to a joystick hat.

Playing FR servers can be great fun but there has to be objectives and grid co-ordinates to those objectives like ground pounding. Then people will have a choice to GP or fly as a fighter but they will know where to find the action.

FR without objectives is a waste of time as everyone flies around aimlesly trying to find the other. Now if either Oleg would give us some decent medium/heavy bombers with cockpits then we could play on slammins with cockpits and no externals. This would be a lot of fun for both the bomber pilots and the fighter jocks. As the way FB is I am more than happy to accept the limitations slammin has towards this ideal and willl join for some good fun B17 killing (usually me that gets killed but who's keeping tabs (-: ). Still love to take an A8/9 up with mk103's and blow the .... out of those big birds. Tried a BK Yak but found it difficult as the 37mm's were not very effective for me but I was not setup for a good attacking pass and so I pushed a bad situation to my detriment.

JG27_Dacripler
02-05-2004, 08:45 PM
Actually this thread caught many eyes but has turned into promoting the "Full Real Concept" But as I look on page 34. in the IL2 FB book enclosed with my CD's it gives the realisim settings. We can continue the debate but the IL2 FB disk, REALISM is ALL boxes checked and nothing less. I don't understand where the line is drawn between full realism and less than full realism? It clearly shows this in the book and once we click off an option this game becomes less difficult. Where the perception changes as options come off is where the heart of the matter lies. We all have our theories of FULL REAL but the book gives us this already.. I appreciate the hosts who provide the many servers and the settings they choose. I find all of them intresting and enjoy flying the many which are provided for all..Thanks !!

BaldieJr
02-05-2004, 09:10 PM
RedDeth wrote:

its just different.and those like baldiejr and goodknight that say otherwise just like trying to make themselves sound like better pilots to everyone.i know for a fact that both of those guys are less than mediocre pilots.thats a fact.

I never said I was good at this, or any other game. I'm absolute in my convictions, sure, but that doesn't mean that I think I'm a ****-hot fighterjerk. My words surely do not say that sort of thing, so you must be on the crack-pipe or something.

That chest-beating stuff is your gig, not mine. They call it 'projecting', for anyone whos interested.

11 time champions at what?

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

Bearcat99
02-05-2004, 09:35 PM
I still like Wonder woman view.....
http://www.tvondisc.com/cart/images/Wonder_Woman_PIC.jpg

http://www.amazing-amazon.com/wwpics/wwx1.jpg

http://www.amazing-amazon.com/wwspice/spicendx.jpg
http://www.amazing-amazon.com/wwpics/fans2.jpg
http://www.amazing-amazon.com/wwpics/wonder1.jpg
http://www.amazing-amazon.com/wwpics/ww001.jpg
http://wonder-woman.fanspace.com/images/wonder_woman_cape.jpg

http://wonder-woman.fanspace.com/images/photo_wonder_woman_04.jpg

http://wonder-woman.fanspace.com/images/photo_wonder_woman_02.jpg
http://a1259.g.akamai.net/f/1259/5586/1d/images.art.com/images/PRODUCTS/large/10019000/10019176.jpg
http://a1259.g.akamai.net/f/1259/5586/1d/images.art.com/images/PRODUCTS/large/10007000/10007196.jpg

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
UDQMG (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html) | HYPERLOBBY (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/) | IL2 Manager (http://www.checksix-fr.com/bibliotheque/detail_fichier.php?ID=1353) | MUDMOVERS (http://www.mudmovers.com/)

BM357_Raven
02-05-2004, 10:15 PM
lmao Bearcat....

JG77Hawk_9
JG27_Dacripler

Great points both of you..

And check out the computer behind wonder woman... that is if you can manage to look past her..

http://www.amazing-amazon.com/wwpics/wonder1.jpg

It's just barely a backdrop... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

TrackIR, It's like this yall'
http://www.bm357.com/highspeed_bm357_sig.gif (http://bm357.com)
Blazing Magnums 357th VFG
bm357.com (http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/flash_intro.html) | Roster (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/bm357_rosters.asp) | Flash Cartoon (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/raven_in_plane9p.html) | BroDawg (http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/flash-intro/tinman3.html) | QuickTime Videos (http://www.bm357.com/movies.htm)
Blazing_Magnums Server (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/server.htm)

JR_Greenhorn
02-05-2004, 10:25 PM
Does the creator of the Wonder Woman series get some kind of royalty every time someone mentions Wonder Woman view here?

Do you suppose its a trademarked name?

If I owned the rights to it, I would come here and start fr vs. arcade arguments and demand rolayties, but thats just me I guess.


Carry on...

Bearcat99
02-05-2004, 10:27 PM
Probably what a whopping 16M of ram.... 33MHZ.... or no thet was the 70s..... 8 M of ram and 16MHZ..LMAO

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
UDQMG (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html) | HYPERLOBBY (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/) | IL2 Manager (http://www.checksix-fr.com/bibliotheque/detail_fichier.php?ID=1353) | MUDMOVERS (http://www.mudmovers.com/)

BfHeFwMe
02-05-2004, 11:42 PM
Looks like she favors the La-7 series, note the red star on the head gear. But she's probably got a soft spot for Mustangs also, note the white stars on those undies. Definitly not a luftwoofer.

Any one know if she was related to the other Linda? You know, the trackIR cheater.

BM357_Raven
02-05-2004, 11:56 PM
I think I remember reading that the high cut-outs on her blue shorties helped her to run twice as fast.. Or did I just think that up..? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

http://www.amazing-amazon.com/wwpics/wonder1.jpg

well at any rate she has a nice smile....And she sure looks fit.. You think she uses BowFlex?

Didnt she used to talk to the computer? And say like "Computer, what is 7 + 3?"

Or wait was that Star Trek? I have it all confused.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

TrackIR, It's like this yall'
http://www.bm357.com/highspeed_bm357_sig.gif (http://bm357.com)
Blazing Magnums 357th VFG
bm357.com (http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/flash_intro.html) | Roster (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/bm357_rosters.asp) | Flash Cartoon (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/raven_in_plane9p.html) | BroDawg (http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/flash-intro/tinman3.html) | QuickTime Videos (http://www.bm357.com/movies.htm)
Blazing_Magnums Server (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/server.htm)

BM357_Raven
02-05-2004, 11:58 PM
Who's got the funk?

Wonder Woman's got the funk!
http://a1259.g.akamai.net/f/1259/5586/1d/images.art.com/images/PRODUCTS/large/10007000/10007196.jpg

TrackIR, It's like this yall'
http://www.bm357.com/highspeed_bm357_sig.gif (http://bm357.com)
Blazing Magnums 357th VFG
bm357.com (http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/flash_intro.html) | Roster (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/bm357_rosters.asp) | Flash Cartoon (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/raven_in_plane9p.html) | BroDawg (http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/flash-intro/tinman3.html) | QuickTime Videos (http://www.bm357.com/movies.htm)
Blazing_Magnums Server (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/server.htm)

BM357_Raven
02-05-2004, 11:59 PM
No, serious baby... you look great in that outfit...

http://a1259.g.akamai.net/f/1259/5586/1d/images.art.com/images/PRODUCTS/large/10019000/10019176.jpg

TrackIR, It's like this yall'
http://www.bm357.com/highspeed_bm357_sig.gif (http://bm357.com)
Blazing Magnums 357th VFG
bm357.com (http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/flash_intro.html) | Roster (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/bm357_rosters.asp) | Flash Cartoon (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/raven_in_plane9p.html) | BroDawg (http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/flash-intro/tinman3.html) | QuickTime Videos (http://www.bm357.com/movies.htm)
Blazing_Magnums Server (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/server.htm)

BM357_Raven
02-06-2004, 12:00 AM
Gonna shoot ya Wonder Woman...
http://wonder-woman.fanspace.com/images/photo_wonder_woman_02.jpg

Pysch!!! Just kidding http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

TrackIR, It's like this yall'
http://www.bm357.com/highspeed_bm357_sig.gif (http://bm357.com)
Blazing Magnums 357th VFG
bm357.com (http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/flash_intro.html) | Roster (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/bm357_rosters.asp) | Flash Cartoon (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/raven_in_plane9p.html) | BroDawg (http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/flash-intro/tinman3.html) | QuickTime Videos (http://www.bm357.com/movies.htm)
Blazing_Magnums Server (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/server.htm)

BM357_Raven
02-06-2004, 12:03 AM
Ahhh too much fun... Thanks BC.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

TrackIR, It's like this yall'
http://www.bm357.com/highspeed_bm357_sig.gif (http://bm357.com)
Blazing Magnums 357th VFG
bm357.com (http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/flash_intro.html) | Roster (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/bm357_rosters.asp) | Flash Cartoon (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/raven_in_plane9p.html) | BroDawg (http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/flash-intro/tinman3.html) | QuickTime Videos (http://www.bm357.com/movies.htm)
Blazing_Magnums Server (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/server.htm)

WOLFMondo
02-06-2004, 03:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:

I'm not good at this game at all. Slowly, I get better, but it gets a bit aggravating when everyone just wants to turn endless loops at 55 Gs.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are only a few servers like this and Im not sure that many people like to fly on them. Im interested to here what people want as a server as Im trying to find the perfect balance right now but from the feedback I've got from people playing on the wolfgaming Il2:FB DF server is they like finite fuel, infinite ammo and the WW view and outside views, enemy icons/triangles that only appear at minimum distance. Everything else is realistic settings. I'd hardly call that arcade settings but a fine balance between what more experianced players want and those that are new to the game (were a gaming community and have to cater for all membershttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif).

I do agree on one point, servers with no spins/stalls, blackouts etc I don't like. You may as well go play BF1942 with those settings but if people enjoy that then its fine with me, I just don't play there.

Wolfgaming.net. Where the Gameplay is teamplay (http://www.wolfgaming.net)

Yum_Yum
02-06-2004, 04:02 AM
Hello again http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

On the whole I think this has been a nice thread and has enlightend me that there are those here who may assume they are better because they use different settings to someone else http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

It's only the experience you have in your chosen settings which make you any better than someone else using the same settings ?.

Which ever settings you chose .. it's only a game, Besides .. everyone knows that a medium settings DF Server has the lowest survival rate and is the toughest fighting environment http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

If you have a trumpet please blow it ...but not in my ear http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
02-06-2004, 06:23 AM
Hi,

Glad to see some good points being made here.

I'd like to add that it wasn't my intention to

a. Diss out anyone with TrackIr. After all, you use what you feel most comfortable and what you get the best results with.

b. Diss FR as I have been known to play in there myself. Literally. i.e. By myself ;-) Just kidding.

Me? I'm crap with the mouse because I really need three hands (stick, throttle, view) and too idle to get NewView up and running, never mind putting my throttle on the mouse buttons or something like that.

Hey - that leaves my throttle for "WW view on a slider"! Top banana.

Also:

np on the Blue Jam stuff. I think Chris Morris gets a bad press these days. After all, who else could come up with that classic Brass Eye 'Paedo-geddon' ??

Yum: I tried out the A9 in anger only to find that if I got two people to wing walk on the right side, and only on the right side, it didn't stall every 5 femtoseconds! See you in the usual place, squire. :-)


Cheers,
Norris


================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam : http://cabinessence.cream.org/

More irreverence:
http://www.tvgohome.com/

x__CRASH__x
02-06-2004, 11:00 AM
I fly it all. SOme people say they do, and prefer one way or another, but honestly, I fly it all.
Full Switch is a serious pain in my a$$. Yes I can fly it. I can fight it, But I'm certainly not as good in it because I can quickly lose SA. Thats my biggest beef. I plan on getting Track IR to overcome that because even with the view options, I can't manipulate the hat switch well enough to not lose track of the guy I'm trying to shoot.

Anyway, I promote people playing a variety of settings. I've built my league to promote the variety. I enjoy hard games, but not Full Switch. Give me friendly icons, or padlock, just so I have a little tool to help out my SA.

As far as the arguements I've read, go fly what you like, but try out new things. Get good at it all, and have fun.

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/crash2.gif (http://www.ghostskies.com/)