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geetarman
04-28-2004, 01:24 PM
I'd like tohear from the pro's, any tips you have for dogfighting the 109 series. I fly a 38 regularly, and always seem to have problems with the 109 (Series G and up). It's not so much a problem when you have the advantage, but they are really hard to get away from when you are the one bounced.

The 38 seems to be able to outrun and outclimb most of the a/c, but not the late 109's. Head-ons aren't too smart either due to the cannons on the Luft bird. No matter what I do, I can't seem to clearly out turn the 109's either (except for the "K").

So, how best to fight them when at a disadvantage or when at parity?

geetarman
04-28-2004, 01:24 PM
I'd like tohear from the pro's, any tips you have for dogfighting the 109 series. I fly a 38 regularly, and always seem to have problems with the 109 (Series G and up). It's not so much a problem when you have the advantage, but they are really hard to get away from when you are the one bounced.

The 38 seems to be able to outrun and outclimb most of the a/c, but not the late 109's. Head-ons aren't too smart either due to the cannons on the Luft bird. No matter what I do, I can't seem to clearly out turn the 109's either (except for the "K").

So, how best to fight them when at a disadvantage or when at parity?

glottis77
04-28-2004, 02:04 PM
i am really no pro, but from what i've seen online a p38 is not a match for a 109 when the pilots are equal. maybe you can beat a 109 when you fly against the cpu, but against a skilled pilot i don't see a way how you can beat it 1 on 1, especially when fights are taking place at rather low altitudes.

Xnomad
04-28-2004, 02:06 PM
P-38 against the late bf 109s? Not easy at all mate unless you started off higher than him with more speed then you are in trouble. Sure you can use the dive brakes to out turn him a few times in a P-39L but then you are really in a mess once you have lost all that speed.

My tip, don't fly against late 109s in a P-38 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The fastest you can be against the late Bf 109 is right down on the deck at full speed in a P-38J but he will still be faster. If it's against a G-14 you will be slightly faster on the deck (in a P-38J) but not by much to really notice it. G-6 A/S G-10 and K-4 = night night P-38, honestly for the later years take a P-51.

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg

Xnomad
04-28-2004, 02:07 PM
oops

Xnomad
04-28-2004, 02:07 PM
oops

CaptainGelo
04-28-2004, 02:09 PM
wasnt me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

[This message was edited by oleg86 on Wed April 28 2004 at 01:44 PM.]

CaptainGelo
04-28-2004, 02:11 PM
ups http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

[This message was edited by oleg86 on Wed April 28 2004 at 01:44 PM.]

Osirisx9
04-28-2004, 02:29 PM
Fly the P-63. In the hands of an expert it will toast any 109 early or late. The P-38 is no match for any 109 flown by an underaverage pilot.

Osiris_X9

geetarman
04-28-2004, 02:34 PM
Xnomad - I kinda here what your saying about using a 51 against the 109's. But, here's the rub - I have no problems handling 51's in the 38 unless I'm clearly bounced by one with alt. Otherwise, I find I can manage ok against them.

So, that begs the question, if 51's are a better match vs. 109's, yet I can handle 51's, why do I have such a hard time with 109s? Kinda silly, I know, but there must be a weakness somewhere in the 109 that any late fighter can exploit.

geetarman
04-28-2004, 02:35 PM
boy - my spelling was pretty poor in the last post. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

CaptainGelo
04-28-2004, 02:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Osirisx9:
Fly the P-63. In the hands of an expert it will toast any 109 early or late. The P-38 is no match for any 109 flown by an underaverage pilot.

Osiris_X9<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yep, p63 is my ride..it kills everything that moves...cant wait to get right cannonhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''
http://www.danasoft.com/sig/oleg86.jpg
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''


plane is 2slow, guns are 2weak and DM suck?...Then click here (http://www.hmp16.com/hotstuff/downloads/Justin%20Timberlake%20-%20Cry%20Me%20A%20River.mp3)

Fear british army. (http://216.144.230.195/Videos/Medium_WMP8/British_Attack.wmv)



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"Big Bills suck, small Bills don't"&lt;----WRONG!!!! all Bills suck http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Xnomad
04-28-2004, 02:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by oleg86:


u'r so wrong......

well, I dont fly it alot, almost never, but if u use flaps and manual prop.pitch u can turn with most fighters.....but do it only if u have to....climb all the time...k4 is a rocket....learn how to do that scession or waht it called bf is realy good in it


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

??? Either you misunderstood this thread or you are wrong http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif Manual prop pitch??? He is talking about flying AGAINST the bf 109 not flying in a bf 109.

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg

CaptainGelo
04-28-2004, 02:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Xnomad:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by oleg86:


u'r so wrong......

well, I dont fly it alot, almost never, but if u use flaps and manual prop.pitch u can turn with most fighters.....but do it only if u have to....climb all the time...k4 is a rocket....learn how to do that scession or waht it called bf is realy good in it


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

??? Either you misunderstood this thread or you are wrong http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif Manual prop pitch??? He is talking about flying AGAINST the bf 109 not flying in a bf 109.

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

gues I have to read post be4 answering next time http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''
http://www.danasoft.com/sig/oleg86.jpg
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''


plane is 2slow, guns are 2weak and DM suck?...Then click here (http://www.hmp16.com/hotstuff/downloads/Justin%20Timberlake%20-%20Cry%20Me%20A%20River.mp3)

Fear british army. (http://216.144.230.195/Videos/Medium_WMP8/British_Attack.wmv)



http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/wolf4ever/Animation3.gif
"Big Bills suck, small Bills don't"&lt;----WRONG!!!! all Bills suck http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Xnomad
04-28-2004, 02:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by geetarman:
Xnomad - I kinda here what your saying about using a 51 against the 109's. But, here's the rub - I have no problems handling 51's in the 38 unless I'm clearly bounced by one with alt. Otherwise, I find I can manage ok against them.

So, that begs the question, if 51's are a better match vs. 109's, yet I can handle 51's, why do I have such a hard time with 109s? Kinda silly, I know, but there must be a weakness somewhere in the 109 that any late fighter can exploit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably because P-51 doesn't have a 30mm MK 108 cannon. The lightnings strength is speed and climb and the late Bf 109 and P-51D can do both of these better than a P-38 so really they should both be giving you as much trouble.

A P-51 at normal power is faster than a Bf 109 K-4 and can almost keep up quite well in a climb. When the K-4 uses full power it is faster at some altitudes and out climbs the P-51 easily. At the moment all guns seem to be a little weak in AEP and that is probably why the P-51 seems more harmless to you?

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg

JtD
04-28-2004, 03:10 PM
I am no P-38 expert either, but a few thing I noticed:

A Bf 109 can't go on with 110% power for too long and as soon as it has to cool down, the P-38 is faster. At least at low altitudes.
The P-38 is an excellent energy fighter, if you push your nose down a little you'll very likely run away from any Bf. Do as many vertical maneuvers as you can without killing yourself.
If you start in a bad position, make sure he has to turn when going after you. This will make him either brake off or lose speed. In both cases you'll gain some distance which will work well for you, taking him some valuable 110% power time trying to catch you...or he'll let you go.
In the P-38 L you can use the dive brakes to suddenly go out of a dive or to simply make him overshoot. Since you'll slow down, use it as last resort.

I think the P-38 is the inferior dogfighter, but once I have been up against a P-38 which managed to keep me in a K-4 AND someone else in a D-9 at bay by using shallow dives and climbs. I didn't start at a disadvantage.

geetarman
04-28-2004, 03:18 PM
Good stuuf Jtd - bring more on. Xenomad - the 51 can outclimb a 38?1? I didn't think that was true. In fact one of the things I love about the 38 is that it's high speed climb seems better than any of the other US fighters, 51 included! Maybe I'm wrong though.

The problem is, I like the US birds and the 38 seems to have the best combo of features and performance. Some do certain things better, but the 38 seems to have the best all-around performance (turn, dive, climb, speed, durability, low alt performance).

Xnomad
04-28-2004, 03:51 PM
Yup the P-38 is faster at normal 100% settings but I don't go over 100% and rad flaps closed until I'm ready for a chase so I always catch the P -38 before I overheat too much.

I've had a P-38 pitch it's nose up sharply when I overshot it by using his air brakes and he shot me down because he could change his angle of attack much more than I expected by using his brakes. I'm not going to fall for that again http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

And yes all versions of the P-51 in AEP outclimb the P-38 all the time. The P-51 turns better, climbs better, dives better and flies faster than the P-38.

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg

MetalG.
04-28-2004, 04:14 PM
I think the P-38's acceleration is very high.
So what you may want to do when you get jumped is dodge a bit and then make a dive, you should at least extend from your bandit for a short while.
After that, I dunno http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif....
I'd say dive to friendly flak 'till your bandit flies away and come back at a time, alt and situation to your liking.

JG7_Rall
04-28-2004, 04:56 PM
109's don't handle well at high speeds. If one gets on your tail, dive, use your dive breaks to pull up, and position yourself so you have distance and you're travelling in opposite directions (like after a head-on pass). Then energy fight the 109 (try to turn more than climb-the 109 is the king of climbing but bleeds a lot of E in a turn) and you should be on his 6 shortly. After that there's not much a 109 can do to shake an opponent off.

"Son, never ask a man if he is a fighter pilot. If he is, he'll let you know. If he isn't, don't embarrass him."
Badges!? We don't needs no stinkin' badges!

-Phineas-
04-28-2004, 09:07 PM
im no pro for sure and i havnt been able to shoot down a 109 yet in the short time ive been flying a p38 but one thing ive been able to do is run. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

if you have some decent alt just point the nose down and youre gone. so far thats been my only way of not being shot down.

FI-Aflak
04-28-2004, 09:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JtD:
I am no P-38 expert either, but a few thing I noticed:

A Bf 109 can't go on with 110% power for too long and as soon as it has to cool down, the P-38 is faster. At least at low altitudes.
The P-38 is an excellent energy fighter, if you push your nose down a little you'll very likely run away from any Bf. Do as many vertical maneuvers as you can without killing yourself.
If you start in a bad position, make sure he has to turn when going after you. This will make him either brake off or lose speed. In both cases you'll gain some distance which will work well for you, taking him some valuable 110% power time trying to catch you...or he'll let you go.
In the P-38 L you can use the dive brakes to suddenly go out of a dive or to simply make him overshoot. Since you'll slow down, use it as last resort.

I think the P-38 is the inferior dogfighter, but once I have been up against a P-38 which managed to keep me in a K-4 AND someone else in a D-9 at bay by using shallow dives and climbs. I didn't start at a disadvantage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like the lightning, but generally do poorly in it.

However, onine I was bounced by a 190 (I mean, really, really bounced.)

I was flying an L series against a dora. Not good.

I dived to a high speed and then used my dive breaks to make a sudden pull up maneuver. He could not adjust his course quickly enough to get a lead. I then repeated. I was hurting (gun jams, fuel leaks, and left engine trailing thin smoke), so I made it back to by runway in this fasion. I would buzz the runqay, divebrake it to pull up, dive shallowly in theother direction, buzz the runway, repeat.

Eventually a friendly helped me out and I landed. I was pretty scared and worn out by then.

Korolov
04-28-2004, 09:30 PM
Afraid of headons? You shouldn't be. The P-38 has four .50 cal and a 20mm, plus two engines. The Bf-109 stands a greater risk than the P-38 in a headon, and with the current extreme durability of the P-38, you don't have much to worry about.

Fly high and make sure you have plenty of altitude to dive away if you're bounced. BnZ is the rule with the P-38, but you have to use shallow dives and climbs. If a 109 catches you, best solution is to turn over and dive. Rolling in the dive will be quite effective, especially with the L. The P-38L will beat anything outside of the Fw-190 in a high speed roll. Bf-109 rolls poorly at speed, so you can roll and pull up with dive brakes.

The best solution to the 109 problem is to fly at the P-38's peak altitude, in the realm of 8000 to 9000m (26-30,000ft.) All 109 models fly poorly at high altitude, and the P-38 will easily outdistance them at altitude. Of course, once up there, you have to watch out for Ta-152s and Fw-190D-9s.

Do's and Don'ts:

DON'T try to climb away from a 109 - they will catch you both in the zoom, shallow and spiral climbs.

DON'T fly below 2000m. Give yourself enough room to dive away from the opposition.

DON'T dive faster than 800kmh - P-38 will break up at about 810-830kmh.

DON'T dive steep in the P-38J, unless you know how to get it out of dives. P-38L can do steep dives, because of airbrakes.

DON'T turn with any opposition for more than 90 degrees.

DON'T use dive brakes in turns. It WILL get you killed. Use dive brakes for high speed recovery only.

DO high speed rolling dives. It confuses your attacker and makes hitting you harder.

DO fly high, preferrably higher than 5000m.

DO headons with everything except Fw-190A's and Me-262s.

DO use combat flaps, and often. They will help in turning greatly, especially against heavier 109s and 190s. But remember to make sure you have a easy escape route in case of trouble...

That's about all I have to add. Good luck!

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

MystiqBlackCat
04-28-2004, 11:13 PM
I fly the P-38 as my primary ride and I can pretty much agree with everything that Korolov said.

I haven't been flying online since before I got AEP because my internet service at college doesn't allow connection to outside servers, but I have found that I can fly well against AI 109s and 190s as long as I keep my speed up.

The P-38 turns really well between 400 and 600 km compared to other fighters, normally I can extend away from enemy fighters and do a quick 180 degree turn and do some damage with a head on pass. Afterwards it is easier to get behind them and thats end of story. It seems that I can out turn 109s and 190s offline with an IAS of between 400 and 600, I'm anxious to fight with her online. (which I will be doing come next wednesday when my exams are over http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

MystiqBlackCat
04-29-2004, 12:39 AM
Well this thread got me thinking, so I went and did some flying.

In the P-38J I fought the 109 G6 five times on Ace and won. The P-38 has funny stall characteristics because of its two engines, I use a steep climb immidiatley after the head on pass and the 109s turn around loosing speed then unsuccessfully try to climb, stalling out and placing me above them and slightly behind, after that I use my energy advantage.

Same principle with the P-38L vs the 109 K, although on one head on he hit my left engine good and it alternated between black smoke and fire, I also lost my cannon. But! I did manage to down him, he took a few hits to his engine in the pass as well and I was able to out climb him until my left engine went dead, and by then I had did enough damage that it was a matter of time.

The last opponent was a 190 D-9, he flew straight at me but I fired off a quick burst and dove hard underneath him to avoid his fire, I quickly climbed straight up, he followed by first turning then climbing and losing energy. Afterwards I fought using E tactics and the fight was similar to the 109s.

I know that I killed AI, but they were Ace AI and it does show the relevance of the tactics with the P-38. When I get a chance I will do some flying online and report back on how I do there.

glottis77
04-29-2004, 12:49 AM
i'm surprised that you can energy fight the 190-d and the 109-k at ace level. i'm not only surprised, to be honest i also doubt it.

PBNA-Boosher
04-29-2004, 06:39 AM
Alright, here's what you need to do. First off, the most important things you need:

Skill to barrel roll.
unpredictability
ENERGY
(if you're in a P-38L) DO NOT USE YOUR DIVE BRAKES, YOU WILL ONLY LOSE ENERGY, COMPROMISING YOURSELF AND POSSIBLY THOSE AROUND YOU.

With these three things it is possible, let me explain how.

Say you start out at 2350 meters. You're cruising along at a nice cruise speed of 290 kph. Suddenly, you see a 109 in you mirror, diving down from 1000 meters above you! Here's two possible choices of yours:

1. Accelerate and start climbing. (the P-38's acceleration is awesome, better than the 109's)
2. Decelerate and wait for him to overshoot.

The two choices in this case aren't really so convenient. Both could get you killed easily if you don't follow up with the proper maneuver. A BARREL ROLL.

As you accelerate or decelerate, you need to barrel roll. If you decelreate try to keep your speed adequate so that you can pull the maneuver, and if you accelerate, try to keep the speed within reason, you want about 500-600 kph, and try not to black or red out.

The best thing about the barrel roll is how unpredictable it is. It can start at any time, and since you're literally rolling in a circle, you can pull out of it at any time and go any where you want to. It will also make the speeding 109 become confused. Sure, he may get off a few shots, but not enough to down you unless he hits you with a lucky Mk-108/Mk-103.

I'll now take you through the steps for choice #1, acceleration and climb:

1: Accelerate and climb with all of your energy. Pull up hard, not hard enough to stall the plane, but hard enough so that the diving 109 can't correct himself in time.

2: Cut your power and hammerhead over and behind the 109. Make sure you KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE 109 AT ALL TIMES! YOU MUST NOT LOSE SIGHT OF IT!

3. Ram your throttles foward and adjust your pitch accordingly to keep it below 3000 RPM's so you don't overwork them, while at the same time gaining speed and staying on the tail of that 109.

4. You'll have to start predicting his maneuvers before he makes them, as his 109 is much nimbler in a roll than yours, and can make maneuvers quicker.

5. use your .50 cal MG's to stop him from moving to places you don't want him to. If you don't want him to go down, use your MG's to force him up. If you want him to go down, use your MG's to force him down. There is also the chance that you may get a lucky PK or possibly do structural damage. Also remember YOU WANT TO BE FAIRLY CLOSE TO THE 109 AS THE .50'S DISPERSION IS LESS THAN FAVORABLE IN THIS GAME.

6. Once your shot is lined up, blast away with your 20mm cannon and whatever .50's you have left. Aim for the engine and wing root. They'll come off nice and easy if you hit them correctly.

7. By now his engine should at least have some problems, or his plane should have at least a tiny bit of structural damage. If you don't feel like you'll be able to finish him off without putting more risk to yourself, break off the attack. IF, AND ONLY IF you feel you can continue the attack and kill him, by all means do so.

8. GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE BECAUSE WHEREVER THERE'S 1 BANDIT THERE WILL ALWAYS BE MORE.


For the 2nd type of engagement, it's the same thing. but instead of accelerating and climbing, dive down at an angle that the 109 can't get you at, and then barrel roll back into position, and follow the rest of the steps.


I hope this helps. Try out the tactics. They work for me most of the time. It takes a lot of patience. When the new patch comes out it will be easier to down a plane with the P-38's 4 .50 cals. But for now, accuracy, energy, barrel rolls, and unpredictability are your greatest friends.

Kurfurst__
04-29-2004, 07:07 AM
I think you dont stand too much chance in an equal and especially inferior position. In single dogfights, the 109 is better. You may try agaisnt the early variants (up to G-6) to outrun them on the deck (P-38 is faster), but it wont works vs. later 109s.

Basically the best idea IMHO is the drag him towards friendly fighters, 109 pilots dont take as much risk as others because their fighting style thought them differently. He may buzz off if the area gets too hot.. with some alt at hands, you may try diving to extend the range and make shooting difficult for him. The last I can come up is stall fighting with Flaps fully deployed, at which the P-38s stall speed is quite a bit lower than the 109s. But its very risky, he will likely lend a few shots on you, with the MK 108s its fatal, so do it only when you are VERY close.

Best idea is fly with several other planes, and utilize TEAM TACTICS. In multi plane dogfights, manouveribility is less of an issue, speed and firepower, durability is more important, the P-38 is very good at those.

Turnfighting, climbing, rollin is a rather bad idea, you wont get any advantage, just make his job easier. Dont try to outaccelarate him, it wont work... See him first, and if he is a better or about equal position, disengage, drag him towards friendlies, or try to intitiate multi-plane combat and shoot the enemy you can at the time, not just dogfight with a single other plane.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/fat-furred%20tigerB.jpg

"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".
- Lt. Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

"One day a Tiger Royal got within 150 yards of my tanks and knocked me out. Five of our tanks opened up on him at ranges of 200 to 600 yards and got 5 or 6 hits on the front of the Tiger. They all just glanced off and the Tiger backed off and got away. If we had a tank like that Tiger, we would all be home today."
- Sgt. Clyde D. Brunson, US Army, Tank Commander, February 1945

MystiqBlackCat
04-29-2004, 07:27 AM
Well Glotis I can record some tracks for you if you would like, but I assure you that I do not make up stories to sound impressive.

geetarman
04-29-2004, 10:14 AM
Thanks for all the replies. It's appreciated. I'll tell you this. I can handle offline Ace AI 109's well. It's the online Experten that give me headaches.

Did a little off-line test this morning - I took up all variants of the 51 against 8 AI 109G's, K's, 190-D's etc. All separate missions. Started at 3000M. Not only was I able to keep all 8 off me, I brought down 3-4 in each mission before the ammo ran out.

I could not duplicate that with either 38. I was eventually brought down. I guess I just have to keep working at it because the plane fascinates me!

Maybe I'll ride the Ponies for awhile on-line. I do hate the lack of durability though!