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Sakai9745
06-13-2004, 08:19 PM
While definitely a day for the destroyermen, this action was no less a feat for the airdales present. If the CVE's do make it in PF, I pray that we all would get a chance to recreate one of the Navy's finest hours at Samar.

"The Last Stand Of The Tincan Sailors" is perhaps the best read into the subject of this severely mismatched clashes between fleets. The author not only covers the fight from the escorts' point of view in fine detail, but also gives due credit to the airmen of the 6 composite squadrons present. There are many pages dedicated to the courageous actions of the FM2's and TBF's that found themselves fighting against enemy warships without heavy hitting ordanance (depth charges and anti-personnel bombs) if ANY ORDANANCE at all (many pilots resorted to making dummy runs in the hopes of unnerving the Japanese enough to turn their ships). It sent chills up my spine to get a blow by blow account of this 20th Century David vs. Goliath.

Just for those interested, here are the compositions of the opposing forces.

USN - TF77.4.3 (Taffy III)
RAdm Clifton Sprague Commannding

Escort Carriers
FANSHAW BAY (flagship)
ST LO
KALININ BAY
WHITE PLAINS
KITKUN BAY
GAMBIER BAY

*Each CVE supported a VC (Composite Sqdn) comprising a mix of up to 28 FM2s and TBFs. At the time of engagement, all aircraft were armed for anti-sub/CAS/CAP missions, and antship armaments stores were severely limited*

Destroyers
HOEL
HEERMANN
JOHNSTON

Destroyer Escorts
J.C. BUTLER
RAYMOND
DENNIS
S.B. ROBERTS


IJN - Center Force
RAdm Takeo Kurita Commanding

Battleships
BB YAMATO
BB NAGATO
BB KONGO
BB HARUNA

Heavy Cruisers
CA HAGURO
CA CHOKAI
CA KUMANO
CA SUZUYA
CA TONE
CA CHIKUMA

Light Cruisers
CL NOSHIRO
CL YAHAGI

Destroyers
DD FUJINAMI
DD KISHINAMI
DD OKINAMI
DD HAMANAMI
DD HAYASHIMO
DD AKISHIMO
DD SHIMAKAZE
DD URAKAZE
DD ISOKAZE
DD YUKIKAZE
DD NOWAKI

An excellent online source on this battle is http://www.bosamar.com. Take special note to view the pictures posted on Chap 5, which show the CVEs under heavy fire while attempting to scramble their aircraft. Cheers!

Al-SF, CA

"Defense Dept regrets to inform you that your sons are dead cause they were stupid."

[This message was edited by Sakai9745 on Sun June 13 2004 at 07:42 PM.]

Sakai9745
06-13-2004, 08:19 PM
While definitely a day for the destroyermen, this action was no less a feat for the airdales present. If the CVE's do make it in PF, I pray that we all would get a chance to recreate one of the Navy's finest hours at Samar.

"The Last Stand Of The Tincan Sailors" is perhaps the best read into the subject of this severely mismatched clashes between fleets. The author not only covers the fight from the escorts' point of view in fine detail, but also gives due credit to the airmen of the 6 composite squadrons present. There are many pages dedicated to the courageous actions of the FM2's and TBF's that found themselves fighting against enemy warships without heavy hitting ordanance (depth charges and anti-personnel bombs) if ANY ORDANANCE at all (many pilots resorted to making dummy runs in the hopes of unnerving the Japanese enough to turn their ships). It sent chills up my spine to get a blow by blow account of this 20th Century David vs. Goliath.

Just for those interested, here are the compositions of the opposing forces.

USN - TF77.4.3 (Taffy III)
RAdm Clifton Sprague Commannding

Escort Carriers
FANSHAW BAY (flagship)
ST LO
KALININ BAY
WHITE PLAINS
KITKUN BAY
GAMBIER BAY

*Each CVE supported a VC (Composite Sqdn) comprising a mix of up to 28 FM2s and TBFs. At the time of engagement, all aircraft were armed for anti-sub/CAS/CAP missions, and antship armaments stores were severely limited*

Destroyers
HOEL
HEERMANN
JOHNSTON

Destroyer Escorts
J.C. BUTLER
RAYMOND
DENNIS
S.B. ROBERTS


IJN - Center Force
RAdm Takeo Kurita Commanding

Battleships
BB YAMATO
BB NAGATO
BB KONGO
BB HARUNA

Heavy Cruisers
CA HAGURO
CA CHOKAI
CA KUMANO
CA SUZUYA
CA TONE
CA CHIKUMA

Light Cruisers
CL NOSHIRO
CL YAHAGI

Destroyers
DD FUJINAMI
DD KISHINAMI
DD OKINAMI
DD HAMANAMI
DD HAYASHIMO
DD AKISHIMO
DD SHIMAKAZE
DD URAKAZE
DD ISOKAZE
DD YUKIKAZE
DD NOWAKI

An excellent online source on this battle is http://www.bosamar.com. Take special note to view the pictures posted on Chap 5, which show the CVEs under heavy fire while attempting to scramble their aircraft. Cheers!

Al-SF, CA

"Defense Dept regrets to inform you that your sons are dead cause they were stupid."

[This message was edited by Sakai9745 on Sun June 13 2004 at 07:42 PM.]

owlwatcher
06-14-2004, 07:44 AM
Good web site

Sakai9745
06-14-2004, 03:07 PM
If memory serves, these were the only photos where US and Japanese warships were ever caught on a same photo in broad daylight.

Al - SF, Calif

"Defense Dept regrets to inform you that your sons are dead cause they were stupid."

Sakai9745
06-14-2004, 06:36 PM
In the hope that this info just might help with a potential single mission of this battle, I am going to continue to post info on material involved. Thanks Droopsnoot for the info. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And if it doesn't make a difference... oh well. Never hurt sharing the info. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

IJN Center Force - Heavies and Hvy Cruisers

YAMATO:
Displacement 71,659 tons
Dimensions 862'10" x 121'1" x 32'11"
Speed 27 knots
Armament 9 x 18.1"/45
12 (later 6) x 6.1"/60
12 (later 24) x 5"/40 DP
up to 150 x 25mm AA
4 x 13mm AA
Armor 16.1" belt (inclined)
11.8" bulkheads
9.1" deck
25.6" turret face
19.7" conning tower
Crew 2800

NAGATO:
Displacement 42,850 tons
Dimensions 725'2" x 113'6" x 31'2"
Speed 27 knots
Armament 8 x 16"/45
20 (later 18) x 5.5"/50
8 x 5"/40 DP
up to 98 x 25mm AA
Armor 11.8" belt
7" deck
14" turret face
14.5" conning tower
Crew 1368

KONGO & HARUNA:
Displacement 36,601 tons
Dimensions 728'4" x 101'8" x 31'9"
Speed 30 knots
Armament 8 x 14"/45
16 (later 14) x 6"/50
8 (Hiei: 4) x 5"/40 DP
up to 118 x 25mm AA
Armor
8" belt
2.75" (later strengthened) deck
9" turret face
Crew 1360

TONE & CHIKUMA:
Displacement 15,200 tons
Dimensions 649'7" x 60'8" x 21'3"
Speed 35 knots
Armament 8 x 8"/50
8 x 5"/40 DP
up to 57 x 25mm AA
12 x 24" TT
Crew 850

SUZUYA & KUMANO:
Displacement 13,440 tons
Dimensions 649'10" x 66'3" x 19'4"
Speed 35 knots
Armament 10 x 8"/50
8 x 5"/40 DP
up to 50 x 25mm AA
12 x 24" TT
Crew 850

CHOKAI:
Displacement 15,781 tons
Dimensions 661'9" x 68'0" x 20'9"
Speed 34 knots
Armament 10 x 8"/50
8 x 5"/40 DP
up to 66 x 25mm AA
16 x 24" TT
Crew 773

HAGURO:
Displacement 14,980 tons
Dimensions 661'9" x 68'0" x 20'9"
Speed 34 knots
Armament 10 x 8"/50
8 x 5"/40 DP
up to 52 x 25mm AA
8 x 24" TT
Crew 773

Al - SF, Calif

"Defense Dept regrets to inform you that your sons are dead cause they were stupid."

Sakai9745
06-17-2004, 08:43 PM
Continuing this info trip, onwards to the screening vessels of the IJN:

Noshiro & Yahagi
Displacement 8,534 tons
Dimensions 571'0" x 49'10" x 18'5"
Speed 35 knots
Armament 6 x 6"/50
4 x 3.1"/65 AA
up to 61 x 25mm AA
8 x 24" TT
16 DCs
Crew ?

Yukikaze*, Isokaze*, Urakaze*, Nowaki*
Year(s) Class Members Completed 1939-1941
Displacement 2,490 tons
Dimensions 388'9" x 35'5" x 12'4"
Speed 35 knots
Armament 6 x 5"/50 DP,
up to 28 x 25mm AA,
up to 4 x 13mm AA,
8 x 24" TT,
36 DCs
Crew 240

Shimakaze
Year(s) Class Members Completed 1943
Displacement 3,048 tons
Dimensions 413'4" x 36'9" x 13'7"
Speed 39 knots
Armament 6 x 5"/50 DP,
up to 28 x 25mm AA,
up to 4 x 13mm AA,
15 x 24" TT,
18 DCs
Crew ?

Fujinami, Kishinami, Okinami, Hamanami, Hayashimo, Akishimo
Year(s) Class Members Completed 1941-1944
Displacement 2,520 tons
Dimensions 390'11" x 35'5" x 12'4"
Speed 35 knots
Armament 6 x 5"/50 DP,
up to 28 x 25mm AA,
up to 4 x 13mm AA,
8 x 24" TT,
36 DCs
Crew 228

It is this final figure (accumulated from www.combinedfleet.com (http://www.combinedfleet.com)) that astounds me about how this battle went the way it did - had the Japanese seized the advantage, they would've been able to bring into play the following:

(primary armaments only, otherwise, I'll be counting guns all day: 6" and below on Yamato, 5" and below on all other BBs and CAs/CLs, and anyone below 5" on DDs -> OMITTED)

18" - 9
16" - 8
14" - 16
8" - 56
6" - 12
5" - 60
24" LL Torpedoes - 183

Al - SF, Calif

"Defense Dept regrets to inform you that your sons are dead cause they were stupid."

Latico
06-17-2004, 11:48 PM
I read once that it was believed that the command of the IJN force thought that they had come up on a stronger force than they actually had engaged, due to the tanacity and accuracy of the return fire that the US force put up. (I'm sure my Dad is gald the IJ Command made that mistake, since he was on the beechhead at Leyte at the time)

Remember, that the Battle off Samar was only one part of a larger tactical manuever by the IJN. There was also a IJN surface force coming from the South that was also turned back by a BB force with screen.

If you research the events of WWII carefully, you'll find many instances where one side or the other appear to not take advantage of opertunity. The best reason for this is that they simply did not know they had the advantage, in most cases. REcon and advanced intell wasn't all that accurate some times, either.

eiffel68
06-18-2004, 09:32 AM
If Kurita had pressed the attack longer against relatively minor vessels: CVEs,DDs and DEs his force would have been totally destroyed because Adm. Lee and his fast BBs and cruisers were coming at him full speed.

That would have been a huge sacrifice in Japanese lifes of which the impact on the outcome of the war would have been minimal at best.

http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/images/antn45.jpg

Latico
06-18-2004, 09:52 AM
Another thing that gave the US surface fleets an advantage was they used radar fire control to aim their guns. The IJN apparently were still using visual sighting techniques that weren't as accurate.

eiffel68
06-18-2004, 10:07 AM
But in 1942, the Japanese ships with just visual devices were on par (some say even superior)to any US radar-equipped ship in night fighting.

So even in 1944, US admirals didn't like much the prospect of fighting Japanese ships at night(i.e. Lee at the Battle of Philippine Sea).

http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/images/antn45.jpg

owlwatcher
06-18-2004, 12:36 PM
I would think that the US and Japs. were on par
with radar(US) and visual sighting techniques (Japs.) in 42 after that the US (radar) would out class the Imperial Navy.
I also would assume that The US admirals didn't like much the prospect of fighting Japanese ships at night for they still had great respect for the Long Lance torpedos.
If you readup on the http://www.angelfire.com/fm/odyssey/LEYTE_GULF_Surigao_Strait_.htm

You will find alot of information on radar aboard the BBs that were used:

West Virginia, Tennessee and California, equipped with the latest Mark-8 fire control radar, had a firing solution in main battery plot and were ready to shoot long before the enemy came within range. These three were responsible for most of the Battle Line action."

Sakai9745
06-18-2004, 05:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eiffel68:
If Kurita had pressed the attack longer against relatively minor vessels: CVEs,DDs and DEs his force would have been totally destroyed because Adm. Lee and his fast BBs and cruisers were coming at him full speed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No to mention Kinkaid rushing up from the south with his own BBs - old, slow, and low on ammo, yet still very much a threat - and CA's/CL's.

I totaly agree, eiffel. In my own humble opinion, had Kurita destroyed Taffy 3, I do not believe it would've gone much further than that. Not when you add in the overwhelming striking power of the US Third Fleet's airpower into the mix (adding in the surface combatants is just rubbing salt into the wound). At best, it would've been a repeat of the Battle of Savo Island; a massacre that didn't go much further.

It is funny how the fog of war affects the tide of a battle. CVEs were thought to be CVs, and one account states that Kurita mistook the lines of the Fletchers for Baltimore Class heavy cruisers. It might've been why he kept his own DDs in tight reign and close to his flag rather than to let them loose and charge the US fleet - many historians agree that the IJN DDs alone could've ripped Taffy 3 apart in little to no time.

One thing for sure: I wish I had the honor of meeting some of sailors and aviators that fought that particular battle. They knew they were in over their heads, and that the best they could probably hope for was to slow the IJN's advance to let the CVEs get away. To willingly throw yourself into that equation without hesitation... I don't think I could do it.

Taffy 3 stats to follow.

Al - SF, Calif

"Defense Dept regrets to inform you that your sons are dead cause they were stupid."

Sakai9745
06-18-2004, 06:22 PM
And representing the United States Navy:

Taffy 3 - all vessels

FANSHAW BAY, ST LO, KALININ BAY, WHITE PLAINS, KITKUN BAY, GAMBIER BAY

Displacements:
Standard: 10.122 tons
Full: 10.902 tons
Length: 498ft X 108ft 1" X 20ft 9 1/4"
Speed: 20 knots
Armament: 1 x 5" aft-mounted
8 x 40mm
12 x 20mm
Aviation: 27 planes (avg)
Crew: 764

JOHNSTON, HOEL, HEERMANN

Displacements:
Full: 3,005 tons
Dimensions: 376ft 6" X 39ft 8" X 13ft 10 3/4"
Speed: 37.8 knots
Armaments: 5 x 5"
4 x 28mm
4 x 20mm L/70
TT: 10 X 533mm
56 DC
Crew: 273


Displacement: 1,745 tons
Dimensions: 306ft X 36ft 10" X 11ft
Speed: 24 knots
Armament: 2 x 5",
4 x 40mm
10 x 20mm
TT: 3 X 533mm
Est 100 DC (incl Hedgehogs)
Crew: 215

Air Wings:
(NOTE - Taffy 3's primary mission was to support the landings at Leyte. As such, they were fully loaded with their proper aircraft armament mix of rockets/depth charges/ HE & anti-personnel bombs. Although each airwing was also provisioned with a dozen Mk 13 torpedoes and a small amount of semi-armor piercing bombs, Taffy 3 was never intended to fight a major fleet engagement.)

VC-68 / USS FANSHAW BAY / LCDR R.S. Rogers
16 FM-2 & 12 TBM-1C

VC-65 / USS ST LO / LCDR R.M. Jones
17 FM-2 & 12 TBM-1C

VC-4 / USS WHITE PLAINS / LT E.R. Fickenscher
16 FM-2 & 12 TBM-1C

VC-3 / USS KALININ BAY / LCDR W.H. Keighley
14 F-2, 1 TBF-1C & 11 TBM-1C

VC-5 / USS KITKUN BAY / CDR R.L. Fowler
14 FM-2 & 12 TBM-1C

VC-10 / USS GAMBIER BAY / LCDR E.J. Huxtable
18 FM-2 & 12 TBM-1C

Total Airpower - Taffy 3: 165 FM-2s and TBFs

Al - SF, Calif

"Defense Dept regrets to inform you that your sons are dead cause they were stupid."