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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 08:51 PM
Salute Oleg

Thankyou for improving P-47 rollrate. We do appreciate it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Cheers RAF74 Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 08:51 PM
Salute Oleg

Thankyou for improving P-47 rollrate. We do appreciate it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Cheers RAF74 Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 09:31 PM
You should also thank him for overmodelling it.


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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 09:32 PM
hmmm...

"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 09:36 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- You should also thank him for overmodelling it.


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Oh,brother.....

47|FC
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-6.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 09:50 PM
To be fair buzzsaw seems like he'll choke if the rollrate is undermodeled, but seems to be fine if it's overmodelled. Doesn't look like historical accuracy is the main issue.

Nic

http://www.randomhouse.com/kids/art/authorphoto/cookie.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 10:13 PM
nicolas10 wrote:
- To be fair buzzsaw seems like he'll choke if the
- rollrate is undermodeled, but seems to be fine if
- it's overmodelled. Doesn't look like historical
- accuracy is the main issue.


Yes, accuracy never was an issue. I am always amazed how people can enjoy overmodelled planes.


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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 10:15 PM
bump

Additionally, very glad to see the stuka and he111 fixed.

S!
609IAP_Recon

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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 10:16 PM
Have you Huckie and nicolas tested the new roll rate? What numbers do you come up with?



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"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 10:21 PM
no one will ever be happy?

"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"

MicroSoft Most Wanted
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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 10:50 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:I am always amazed
- how people can enjoy overmodelled planes.

Yeah,I know! I have a blast flying the Fw-190s.

47|FC
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-6.jpg


Message Edited on 09/04/0304:51PM by necrobaron

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 10:52 PM
Salute Huck and Niclas

Ahhh... didn't think it would be long till Luftwhiners joined the party to do a little pooping... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Guess what? I was the first to mention the P-47 being a little fast for a 50 lb stickforce at 400kph.

Of course, a P-47 pilot could apply more than 50 lbs, as seen by this chart which shows 60 lbs:

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1952/naca-tn-2675/0054.gif


And we know the P-47's ailerons were not a full deflection at 400 kph.

So it is clear that it could roll faster given an increase in stickforce.

So in fact, we DON'T know the current rate is overmodelled.

In fact, the D22's rollrate is likely very close. The D10's is probably over.

Another thing we do know, is that the High speed rollrate of the P-47 is UNDERMODELLED. So the plane has a handicap.

The 190's rollrate is overmodelled too... And I don't see you starting a thread about that.

In fact we have a 190 which rolls faster than it should at both very slow and very high speeds. Ie. you have two areas where it is overmodelled and unlike the P-47, no areas where it is undermodelled.

I have a P-47 which POSSIBLY rolls better at middle speeds, but continues to roll below what was historical at high speeds.

So who's plane is more overmodelled??

Oh, I see... You preferred it when the P-47 was undermodelled across the spectrum....?

I see... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


RAF74 Buzzsaw





Message Edited on 09/04/0310:08PM by RAF74BuzzsawXO

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 11:01 PM
Buzzsaw, take a look at the deflection of the ailerons when you roll at low speed next time, they are deflecting well over 15 degrees.

This actually explains what's going on with the high end roll rate as well. It sounds as though we now have a slightly stronger pilot, with a larger avaliable control deflection.

Remember those charts you posted for the experimental system with the increased deflection range? The P-47's roll rate now seems to match those pretty closely.

The catch is, that wasn't the system that was deployed; it was the modified Republic linkage, with greater leveral, but reduced travel.

So, what we have, is actually a realistic system, but not the one that was deployed by the USAAF.

Then again, considering the Russian's tendacy to change stuff on the LL fighters, and optimise them for low level, low speed dogfighting, it wouldn't suprise me at all if they had changed the linkages for greater travel.

It's not over modeled; it's the wrong model.

Harry Voyager

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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 11:12 PM
as long as the roll rate is coherent with the rest of the sim (better than one plane, but not than this another one, etc), i'm happy... I really don't care for the exact numbers, chasing the number will make us miss the really important thing : does it behave convincingly?

I think the answer is yes...


<center><img src=http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg></center>

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 01:19 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- You should also thank him for overmodelling it.


You should exert your efforts to get him to reduce the roll rate of the Fw-190 at high speed, and the Bf-109 at all speeds.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/corsairs.jpg


Message Edited on 09/05/0304:21AM by SkyChimp

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 01:21 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:

- Yes, accuracy never was an issue. I am always amazed
- how people can enjoy overmodelled planes.
-

You'll bash US planes all day long. But won't utter a word that the Bf-109 is absurdly overmodelled in roll.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/corsairs.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 01:58 AM
SkyChimp wrote:
-
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
-
-- Yes, accuracy never was an issue. I am always amazed
-- how people can enjoy overmodelled planes.
--
-
- You'll bash US planes all day long. But won't utter
- a word that the Bf-109 is absurdly overmodelled in
- roll.
-
- Regards,
-
- SkyChimp

Chimp, whether you realize it or not, you are his mirror image.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 02:42 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- You should also thank him for overmodelling it.


My tests indicate it is still undermodeled at 250 mph IAS and over.



Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/corsairs.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 02:43 AM
BlitzPig_DDT wrote:

- Chimp, whether you realize it or not, you are his
- mirror image.


I keep him in check.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/corsairs.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 02:54 AM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Have you Huckie and nicolas tested the new roll
- rate? What numbers do you come up with?

eh....numbers?

Sorry didn't time how fast this 1.1 final patch P47 rolls, but it kinda made me dizzy...

until it blew up ofcourse /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

ntrk:

http://members.home.nl/dnme/tracks/FB/11/P47roll.ntrk




/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 03:25 AM
Dive changed, too.

Average time until plane hits deck, 3000m initial 400km/h(0G Powerdive):

FB1.1b
D-10: 29s
D-22: 30s
D-27: 32s

FB1.1f
D-10: 26s
D-22: 26s
D-27: 27s

With an average speed of 860~890km/h last two seconds, that amounts to about average 230m/s travelled per second in the last stages before reaching deck - 700m~1000m distance advantage over the P-47s of FB1.1b, assuming dive characteristics of other planes aren't changed.







-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

Message Edited on 09/05/0311:34AM by kweassa

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 09:45 AM
Recon_609IAP wrote:
- bump
-
- Additionally, very glad to see the stuka and he111
- fixed.

I want to see it all fixed, as historical accuracy
is the idea. E.g. I want to see the P39 roll rate
be accurate (still trying to download the final patch)
even if it means a reduction, and despite the P39
being one of my favourite planes since boyhood. I love
the plane, so I want to get an accurate experience
flying it (within the limits of the sim and my own
safety of course :-))

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 03:31 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Have you Huckie and nicolas tested the new roll
- rate? What numbers do you come up with?


Sure I did. P47D10 rolls in 12 sec at 400kmh at 1/4 speed, which means 3 sec per 360 deg roll, resulting in a 120deg/sec roll.
Excellent, that's almost twice the roll, considering that it was capable of only 70deg/sec at 400kmh.

That's quite an achivement of your moaning campaingn.



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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 04:05 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- MiloMorai wrote:
-- Have you Huckie and nicolas tested the new roll
-- rate? What numbers do you come up with?
-
-
- Sure I did. P47D10 rolls in 12 sec at 400kmh at 1/4
- speed, which means 3 sec per 360 deg roll, resulting
- in a 120deg/sec roll.
- Excellent, that's almost twice the roll, considering
- that it was capable of only 70deg/sec at 400kmh.
-
- That's quite an achivement of your moaning
- campaingn.
-

400kmh IAS or TAS?

I've been flying with the speed bar off for a long time in that plane, so every thing I think of in that plane in in Indicated airspeed and English measure, not metric or TAS.

You will also notice that the roll rate at 400 mph IAS/650km/h IAS is around 8-10 seconds, or around 45 degrees/sec, or slightly under the roll rate of production P-47D's at that speed.

If you take a look that the charts Buzzsaw posted, this is very similare to the roll performance of one of the aileron configurations that was tested for the P-47C upgrades. One of the linkage configurations they tested showed a very high roll rate at low speed, but a faster drop-off at high speed. The linkaged configuration they finally used had poorer low speed roll performance, but better highspeed roll performance, resulting in more constant performance.

We seem to now have the linkage that provided high low speed roll, with lower high speed roll, rather than the one that was adopted for production. The roll performance we are getting is not out of the abilities of the aircraft, or the laws of physics, rather, it is simply not the configuration that was adopted for service.

Though, as I stated earlier, I wouldn't put it pasted the Russians if they had found out about it, to tweak it back to the high low speed roll/low high speed roll, configuration. Its simple modification, and it did greatly improve low speed roll, at the cost of little high speed roll.

Harry Voyager

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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 04:49 PM
400 IAS, 200m above the ground, no difference.

120deg/sec does not satisfy you??


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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 09:07 PM
I do have a slight beef about this and it`s been one of my worries.

So the P-47 flies right now? But the K4 is buggered. What`s the point of having your personal plane perfected to the nth degree of all the documents you may have when other planes may become neglected and therefore useless?

You have a perfect P-47...

But imperfect enemy planes to fly against?

Nobodys achieved anything...





"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 09:18 PM
Huckie baby, better improve your English reading skills. NOWHERE did I do any moaning about the P-47's roll rate.

All I asked for some numbers to back up your claim./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif You then gave some after 17 1/4 hours later - lots of time to do some testing to obtain results./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Huckebein_FW wrote:
- MiloMorai wrote:
-- Have you Huckie and nicolas tested the new roll
-- rate? What numbers do you come up with?
-
-
- Sure I did. P47D10 rolls in 12 sec at 400kmh at 1/4
- speed, which means 3 sec per 360 deg roll, resulting
- in a 120deg/sec roll.
- Excellent, that's almost twice the roll, considering
- that it was capable of only 70deg/sec at 400kmh.
-
- That's quite an achivement of your moaning
- campaingn.
-


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http://www.redneckengineering.com/photogallery/photo23581/curves-done-03.jpg


"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 10:50 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Huckie baby, better improve your English reading
- skills. NOWHERE did I do any moaning about the
- P-47's roll rate.
-
- All I asked for some numbers to back up your
- claim. You then gave some
- after 17 1/4 hours later - lots of time to do some
- testing to obtain results.

Why do you think you deserve an response immediately? Why do you think you deserve an response at all?

P-47 is overmodelled in roll now as it was 17 hours ago. I'm sure you find enjoyable to fly in FB planes that have twice their historical performance.


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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 10:52 PM
Overmodelled roll rate or not, P-47 is still a dog 1-on-1 IMHO. It`s no real challenge. Expect that you may run out of ammo in Yaks while trying bringing it down. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 11:02 PM
Vo101_Isegrim wrote:
-
- Overmodelled roll rate or not, P-47 is still a dog
- 1-on-1 IMHO. It`s no real challenge. Expect that you
- may run out of ammo in Yaks while trying bringing it
- down.


Yes, it's an overmodelled dog/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 11:15 PM
Yep, but it helps the drivers little, because as Ugly Kid put it very well, most just try to turn and burn with Yaks or others, burn their speed to stall speed, then realize they scr*wed it all up, and try the Legendary P-47 Outdives Them All Escape [(c) by Ugly Kid] 500meter above ground. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

They should find a quite place instead, where they can wait half an hour in which the P-47 climbs to ~3000m, and then attempt to boom and zoom at high speeds... but most just don`t do that. Silly, really.

http://vo101isegrim.piranho.com/FB-desktopweb.jpg
'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 12:42 AM
Well Huckie baby you are always quick with the comeback./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Glad you had the time to test after the question./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Where did I do that moaning Huckie? I did not see anything about it in your reply - LOL another Huckie lie./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Huckebein_FW wrote:
- MiloMorai wrote:
-- Huckie baby, better improve your English reading
-- skills. NOWHERE did I do any moaning about the
-- P-47's roll rate.
--
-- All I asked for some numbers to back up your
-- claim. You then gave some
-- after 17 1/4 hours later - lots of time to do some
-- testing to obtain results.
-
- Why do you think you deserve an response
- immediately? Why do you think you deserve an
- response at all?
-
-

To back up your claim - just like you tell others to back up their claims./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


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"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 12:53 AM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Well Huckie baby you are always quick with the
- comeback
-
- Glad you had the time to test after the
- question
-
- Where did I do that moaning Huckie? I did not see
- anything about it in your reply - LOL another Huckie
- lie


It was no lie. Here's the context:

"MiloMorai wrote:
- Have you Huckie and nicolas tested the new roll
- rate? What numbers do you come up with?


Sure I did. P47D10 rolls in 12 sec at 400kmh at 1/4 speed, which means 3 sec per 360 deg roll, resulting in a 120deg/sec roll.
Excellent, that's almost twice the roll, considering that it was capable of only 70deg/sec at 400kmh.

That's quite an achivement of your moaning campaingn."


It wasn't your moaning campaign. Nobody would have care about you anyway.
Moaning champions are Skychimp and Buzzsaw, (they got a helping hand from ian boys though), I see a challanger in hop when Spit will come in FB, if it will ever come.


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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 01:02 AM
There was a pilot account of a mock battle between the Spit and the Jug. In it, the Jug went into a zoom climb and actually out distanced the spit for a bit before the sustained climb rates became a factor.

Given how bad the Jug still is......I can't imagine what will happen if the Spit performs according to that.

It's not a "whining" campaign Huck. The P-47 was screwed horribly, and it still is not being done justice.

Complaints are not whines DAMMIT. You people need a dammed dictionary!

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 01:59 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:

- P-47 is overmodelled in roll now as it was 17 hours
- ago. I'm sure you find enjoyable to fly in FB planes
- that have twice their historical performance.


Huck, what do you say about the Bf-109 in FB? Is the roll rate overmodelled?

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/corsairs.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 02:07 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:

- Sure I did. P47D10 rolls in 12 sec at 400kmh at 1/4
- speed, which means 3 sec per 360 deg roll, resulting
- in a 120deg/sec roll.
- Excellent, that's almost twice the roll, considering
- that it was capable of only 70deg/sec at 400kmh.


BS. Please post a track. The max roll rate I get is a tad over 4 seconds at 250 mph IAS. That's dead on. But its still too low at higher speeds.

I think it pains you to see US plane modelled correctly. Please direct your efforts to get the Bf-109's absurd roll rate reduced.



Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/corsairs.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 02:24 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:

- 'snip'
- That's quite an achivement of your moaning
- campaingn."
-
-
- It wasn't your moaning campaign. Nobody would have
- care about you anyway.
- Moaning champions are Skychimp and Buzzsaw, (they
- got a helping hand from ian boys though), I see a
- challanger in hop when Spit will come in FB, if it
- will ever come.
-

If it was not 'my moaning campaign', then why say that in a reply to a >>question<< I asked of you? LOL you are trully something else./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif You missing some grey matter from between the ears?


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"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 02:27 AM
The P-47D-10 rolls around 3 sec at 250 mph IAS. However that drops to ~6.5 seconds at 350-400mpg IAS. Around 500mph IAS the roll is around 8.5-9 seconds.

The P-47D-27 however takes ~4.5 seconds to do a 360 roll at 250mph IAS, ~7.5 seconds at around 350-400 IAS, and down to about 9.5 seconds at 450-500 mph IAS.

Again, the 3 second roll at 250 IAS is consistent with the experimental linkage, as is the 9 second roll at 500 IAS.

The D-27 seems, inexplicable, to take about a second longer to complete any roll than the D-10.

Harry Voyager

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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 02:37 AM
HarryVoyager wrote:
- The P-47D-10 rolls around 3 sec at 250 mph IAS.

I'm not getting that kind of roll. I'm using the air speed indicator in the cockpit. @ 250 mph IAS I'm getting a little over 4 seconds.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/corsairs.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 03:25 AM
Salute Huckbein

As usual you are displaying your tendency to either exageration or absolute disinformation.

Firstly:

Quote:

- P47D10 rolls in 12 sec at 400kmh at 1/4
- speed, which means 3 sec per 360 deg roll, resulting
- in a 120deg/sec roll.

You have obviously exagerrated the rollrate in your testing. Do the tests according to the standards required by NACA when testing rollrate. Ie. do it without using rudder or elevator. Your rollrate is rather obviously obtained by using either one or the other.

The rollrate of the D10 as it stands is 110 degrees per second.

Secondly:

Quote:

- that's almost twice the roll, considering
- that it was capable of only 70deg/sec at 400kmh.

Clearly this is disinformation.

As we can all see from the below chart which has been posted probably 20 times on this board, the rollrate at 400kph or 250 mph is 84 degrees per second for the P-47C-1RE, which was identical to the D10 in every respect as far as aileron or wing configuration was concerned. And in fact the D10 was lighter in overall weight.

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1947/naca-report-868/42.gif


You either have a VERY short memory, or believe everyone else does. (I lean towards believing the first theory... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

Thirdly, as Harry says, the rollrate currently of the D10 was attainable, as shown by this chart which provides a test of ailerons modified to give a better lowspeed rate:

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1947/naca-report-868/30.gif


So give it up, and learn to live with the fact that engineers other than those who worked for FockeWulf and Messerschmidt were capable of good designs.


RAF74 Buzzsaw






Message Edited on 09/06/0302:27AM by RAF74BuzzsawXO

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 05:30 AM
Received and email about the patch and downloaded it. I have flown the Jug a little but have done no timed testing. It is not perfect but it is very much close enough to live with and be quiet about. I will say no more. Salute to Oleg and team. Thank you. This is as close as anyone has ever been in a flight sim. I will now be quiet on the subject and enjoy the plane. I don't think the code will allow the discrepencies in dive to be modeled correctly, such is life, we will live with it.

Huck and Vis: I never see you two on hyperlobby with these call signs. Pity that. You claim to be such experts. About Monday night, unless called in to work, I will be in hyperlobby flying the Jug. You are welcome to come to the room and demonstrate your superior knowledge and skills with the LW planes.

It ain't bragging if you can do it. If you can't, it is just dellusional rantings. Surely you aren't afraid to come out in the virtual daylight and lay your skill, knowledge, and tactics bare before the cyber world in hyperlobby so you may be seen as you are, such as that may prove to be. You may very well be the best, but alas, faith without works is dead, and bragging without proof is hollow and cast aside in the ponderings of wise men. Talking a good game isn't playing a good game.

If you don't have enough brass on them to do it, see if you can borrow some, it will be fun no matter how it turns out. It will be LW vs US planes, Mountains, 1943 full real with limited icons and padlock.

Skychimp, come and fly wing with me. We shall roar and soar through the cyber skies on virtual wings of fire and steel
WYS
Ab_Onedoc
http://home.bellsouth.net/coDataImages/p/Groups/145/145395/folders/95395/670204p47man.jpg


http://home.bellsouth.net/coDataImages/p/Groups/145/145395/folders/95395/670205P47Portrait.jpg





Message Edited on 09/06/0304:32AM by AB_Onedoc

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 08:48 AM
Salute Onedoc

I'd be happy to fly your wing on Monday night. What time, EST or what?

1943 it is.


Cheers RAF74 Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 10:10 AM
RAF74BuzzsawXO wrote:
- Thirdly, as Harry says, the rollrate currently of
- the D10 was attainable, as shown by this chart which
- provides a test of ailerons modified to give a
- better lowspeed rate:

What that adopted as standard on the D10, though?

My results are:- (speed in mph, roll rate in FB for D10, roll rate for P47C1RE from NACA)

190 - 90 - 70
250 - 110 - 85
310 - 75 - 80
375 - 53 - 70

Compared to the P47C1RE we have overmodelled low
speed roll rate, undermodelled high speed. Without
actually NACA figures for the D10, or knowledge about
whether any aileron mods mentioned were in the D10
over the C1RE, then it is hard to know. This are
very much closer to the apparent requirements than before.
Of course it may change yet again in the real final patch.

I'll take a look at the P39 later, to see if that's
still horribly overmodelled.

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 11:04 AM
The only problem with the P-47 now is that is just doesn't overheat - at full power and boost, even with radiators closed, it just doesn't overheat.

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 05:34 PM
It does over heat. It kills me how people make claims about a plane in FB that are so far off. Clearly you don't spend much time in it.

Remember, heat is based on the amount of work the engine is doing, and cooling is based on how open the cowl flaps are, and speed. Fly fast enough, even with 100% power and the cowl closed and you will be fine. Fly too slowly in that config and you will overheat. Use water too much, especially with the cowl closed, and you will cook the engine.

It takes a while to cool down too. That can really kill you.

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 05:59 PM
ok i have seen the chart and the fact is iam happy with the rool rate of the p47, on all the books i have read about it all the pilots testimony say that the p47 rool prety well, not numbers /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif .


but my question to you Buzzsaw is about the roll rate on the D-27 seens to be less, at the same speed. I know is heavy have; more full cap than the other too but the roll sould be close. any word on this...

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 07:23 PM
It just took me a short fly in the D-27 to discover it's still rolling very bad.... Anyway, the other 2 models roll better, especially the D-10 thanks to the lack of bomb racks.


<hr>

<p align=center style="width:100%; filter:glow[color=#33CCFF, strength=2)">

<img src=http://mitglied.lycos.de/eldur190d9/bilder/willey110.jpg border=0 alt="Hier geht's zur I/JG78"> (http://www.jg78.de)

</p><font color=59626B>

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 08:42 PM
Functio wrote:
- The only problem with the P-47 now is that is just
- doesn't overheat - at full power and boost, even
- with radiators closed, it just doesn't overheat.

It does. It certainly does with the withdrawn patch.
It takes between 5 and 10 mins with injection, perhaps.

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 08:45 PM
RED_BEAR8 wrote:
- ok i have seen the chart and the fact is iam happy
- with the rool rate of the p47, on all the books i
- have read about it all the pilots testimony say that
- the p47 rool prety well,

If the D-10 is rolling too fast at low speed, this
needs to be addressed, though (as well as some possible
lack of roll at high speed). Unless the changes (if any)
to the ailerons between C1 and D10 are being accurately
reflected.

- but my question to you Buzzsaw is about the roll
- rate on the D-27 seens to be less, at the same
- speed. I know is heavy have; more full cap than
- the other too but the roll sould be close. any word
- on this...

I suspect that the D-10 got the new FM updates, but
it being actually not the final patch, the D-27 hadn't
been done, so it is the old FM.

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 10:49 PM
yes you
AaronGT wrote:
-
- RED_BEAR8 wrote:
-- ok i have seen the chart and the fact is iam happy
-- with the rool rate of the p47, on all the books i
-- have read about it all the pilots testimony say that
-- the p47 rool prety well,
-
- If the D-10 is rolling too fast at low speed, this
- needs to be addressed, though (as well as some
- possible
- lack of roll at high speed). Unless the changes (if
- any)
- to the ailerons between C1 and D10 are being
- accurately
- reflected.
-
-- but my question to you Buzzsaw is about the roll
-- rate on the D-27 seens to be less, at the same
-- speed. I know is heavy have; more full cap than
-- the other too but the roll sould be close. any word
-- on this...
-
- I suspect that the D-10 got the new FM updates, but
- it being actually not the final patch, the D-27
- hadn't
- been done, so it is the old FM.
-
-
yes could be Aragon the d-27 is the old model Ver 1.0 of the Sim. lets see on when the next pacht arrive /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

ZG77_Nagual
09-06-2003, 11:03 PM
I've mostly flown the d10 - I think the problem with Huck's test may be the flying at 1/4 speed then multiplying the roll - noone has thus far done any testing to see if 1/4 speed is REALLY 1/4 speed (and frankly, it's an issue I think we could live without raising) Tests should be done at standard speed anyway - to avoid introducing yet another variable.

Over modeled low, undermodeled high sort of fits with how I understand the modeling in this simm - which I think is very complex. It's a beautiful piece of work - but not simple to modify. I think the trade off is worth it and if we have planes that are close to relatively accurate - I am happy. The d10 was known as the best dogfighter of the '47s - so it makes sense the d27 would be a bit less agile.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 11:13 PM
ZG77_Nagual wrote:
- I've mostly flown the d10 - I think the problem with
- Huck's test may be the flying at 1/4 speed then
- multiplying the roll - noone has thus far done any
- testing to see if 1/4 speed is REALLY 1/4 speed

Dunno - I did my test at 1/4 speed (see above) and
the figures seem to match what others are getting
on the whole. The NACA rolls are without any rudder
input, so Huck might be unconsciously putting in
rudder? Easy for me to avoid - I just keep my feet
of the pedals for the duration, but Huck might have
a twisty stick? I know that it took me some adjustment
from a twisty stick as I used more rudder input than
I ever imagined, and I am still adjusting to not using
it as much with pedals.

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 01:47 AM
Skychimp:

I should be starting the game about 2000 hours EDST Monday night. That is 0100 9/9/03 Zulu Time I think!!!

This may prevent Huck and Vo101_Isegrim from joining but a good time should be had anyway.

It's always fun to fly and even to die in the virtual skys and I would rather have one kill with the Jug than 10 with one of the over modeled or late model ones.

See You in the Cyber Skies of Hyperlobby.

You too Buzzsaw, it'll be fun.


WYS
AB_Onedoc

http://home.bellsouth.net/coDataImages/p/Groups/145/145395/folders/95395/670205P47Portrait.jpg




Message Edited on 09/07/03 12:49AM by AB_Onedoc

Message Edited on 09/07/0312:50AM by AB_Onedoc

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 05:32 PM
one kill in a jug than 10 on a overmodelle plane... and how to enjoy that kill man!!! and enjoy to fly this baby hehe /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 01:36 AM
S! all
after thirty minutes no one had joined the game off to visit other games.
WYS
AB_Onedoc

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 01:43 AM
DOH!!!
Didnt know new patch out off to test.
Doc

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 10:30 AM
Did a quick test last night after the patch downloaded.

The figures are - speed - D10 roll rate (deg/sec) - D27 roll rate

190mph/300kph - 96 - 80
250mph/400kph - 120 - 60
310mph/500kph - 80 - 36

The D10 rates below 500kph are too fast, unless we speculate that there was some change in the ailerons between the C1 and D10. (Noone seems to have definitively said that there were, and I haven't got round to looking for evidence myself).

At 310mph the D10 rolls 5 deg/sec too slow - which is close
enough to make no odds.

The D27, however, is another matter. Were there any changes
between the D10 that would have led to such a dramatic fall
off in roll rate? It seems a bit unlikely, to be honest.

All tests done below 1000m (IAS ~= TAS) with 100% load,
no external load, normal ammunition load.

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 03:41 PM
doesn't overheat???????? OMG show me how to do that. I have to play with the radiator settings all teh time and with boost and prop settings to keep from overheating.

Functio wrote:
- The only problem with the P-47 now is that is just
- doesn't overheat - at full power and boost, even
- with radiators closed, it just doesn't overheat.
-
-

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 04:33 PM
The P-47 is a real killer now (at convergence range) It6 can snap wings and hulls like mk-108's now.



(and probably kill tigers too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/templates/subSilver/images/logo_phpBB.gif (http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/index.php)

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 04:21 AM
Can the complaining never end?

I have no problem with complaints backed up by facts ie. Skychimps p47 roll rate info, but the continual moaning about every inacurracy is becoming extremly boring, FB is not perfect and never will be and even if it was some forum member would still find something to complain about.

Yeh, I know Im complaining about the complainers, but its a slow day at the office and I would much rather read positive or informative posts, anyway thats my 2cents.

JG4_Tiger