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Knight_Raime
11-21-2017, 12:36 PM
In the probably futile hopes of this post i'm attempting to write a "guide" of sorts on how we as a community can come together and actually create a place of information for the developers. To us something might be easy to understand or a "no brainer." But for the sake of being clear it's best to be as detailed as possible while staying as direct as possible. The developers are 100% aware of how people feel about Shaman right now so we don't need to be loud or spam them/forums trying to get their attention. There are a few other things that you should avoid when trying to construct a post for the devs to see:

~Avoid hyperbolic statements. These would be things like "Shaman's pounce is literally unreactable."

~Avoid absolute statements. These would be things like "she's factually the best hero in the game."

~Avoid insults, excessive swearing, vulgarity etc. It's entirely possible for you to create a well written and passionate post without swearing six times over or insulting the developers abilities.

~Avoid using consoles or 30 fps as a back bone to your argument. It is harder to handle things on console yes. But there is plenty of evidence out there on the internet of console players handling super fast things just fine. Even if you don't believe me on that they don't balance things exclusively for one platform or the other. So you'll need different proof to prove the issue.

That I think wraps it up on what to avoid. Before we get into the tips on how to construct a post/thread though I should mention that for the time being we should not ask for nerfs to her speed in any shape or form. Currently some of her attacks are "bugged" and the time in which she loses stamina for doing the move doesn't match the animation itself or the indicator. Not to mention speed issues in general are exacerbated with the lack of lag compensation. In short if they addressed speed related issues now when the devs finally get around to adding their new lag comp system in they will likely have to go back and tweak speeds again. Anyway, moving on.

There are many things about her kit that are frustrating or powerful for sure. But in order to write a well written post on adjusting a hero you have to start small. Pick one move that the hero does that you take issue with...for example sake lets take Shaman's pounce. What is wrong with her pounce? What exactly does pounce do for her kit? Both of these questions are important. The former is what establishes the issue for the developers as clear as day. The latter is something you need to constantly consider when thinking about making a change. You might come up with a perfect fix to your issue with pounce. But it could have unintended issues with the rest of the kit.

The typical post related about the pounce goes something like "it's a stupidly fast unblockable that is impossible to react to and gives free insane damage." While this sort of paints a picture for the developers it's too messy to identify one specific problem. Nor does it offer a solution. In short it's just noise. A better post about pounce would be:
"Pounce feels unfair because you can cancel between it and wildcats rage or just hard feint it all relatively quickly creating a mess of indicators on the receiving end."

That's much more detailed and easy to follow. But it still doesn't offer a solution. In order to come up with a proper suggestion you need 2 things. To understand what that specific move does for the kit/what the kit's overall design was. And what kind of impact your change would have not only on the kit itself but to all skill levels. A solution you come up with might work just fine for high tier play but it might just make things much harder for low to mid tier play. So you'd have fixed the issue in top tier play but created another in a different skill bracket. It's always a good idea to balance from the top to bottom but that doesn't mean ignoring the impact a change can have on the lower ends of skill brackets.

One suggested change I saw that I wouldn't consider to be a good one for fixing pounce was removing the ability to feint it. That does fix the written issue I wrote. But it ruins the purpose of the ability. In my opinion the whole point of pounce and what it effects is to support an in and out kind of playstyle. Removing the feint option means she will struggle to get in. Which hurts the kit overall. a better suggestion would be to do one of 2 things either: A) change up the circumstances on which pounce can be feinted OR B) reducing the rewards from a successful pounce. Both would still allow Shaman to do as her kit was designed but make it more understandable or less bad feeling on the receiving end.

I think that about covers it. I'm not going to tell you that you can't write how you feel or that you shouldn't be heard if you don't adhere to these tips. My entire point is that if you really truly do care about the game and want to have more fun with it you're going to have to put this kind of effort into your threads/replies. It's the only way the developers will know what truly is the issue and the only way they will actually listen. Afterall if we can't be respectful and clear with them why should the bother doing that with us?

Feel free to use this thread as a practice place to write your own posts. Or if you want to add any tips on writing threads/posts feel free to share them. Just stay respectful and kind. See you out on the battlefields. :>

Alustar.exe
11-21-2017, 12:53 PM
I think it would be important to note what game modes you pay regularly as well. This can help the devs identify better what and where the problems are.

Knight_Raime
11-21-2017, 01:04 PM
I think it would be important to note what game modes you pay regularly as well. This can help the devs identify better what and where the problems are.

upvoted. that is indeed SUPER important information to give. I'm an established duelist around here (some people forget) but it does make me blind to balance on a pretty large scale since I don't really know too much about how kits play out in 4v4. It caused quite a bit of frustration with discussion back during centurions reign whenever I spoke outwordly about him.

David_gorda
11-21-2017, 01:04 PM
Op Pounce is simply to fast and has to good tracking, it might be on to have that speed and if you miss you take Same damage as the shugoki, and yes it matters if you play on console or PC dont be rediculous. The rest Of her kit might be fine but the Pounce definitly need speed and tracking nerf or some huge drawback if you miss instead Of just doing the Pounce again.

Alustar.exe
11-21-2017, 01:08 PM
upvoted. that is indeed SUPER important information to give. I'm an established duelist around here (some people forget) but it does make me blind to balance on a pretty large scale since I don't really know too much about how kits play out in 4v4. It caused quite a bit of frustration with discussion back during centurions reign whenever I spoke outwordly about him.

The centurion debacle is precisely why I mention it, that and I'm like you but opposite. I'm **** at duels, but excel at 4v4. I haven't been able to get into many skirmish matches since they changed death match up, but I'll give my thoughts on her as soon as "I have more data." :D

Knight_Raime
11-21-2017, 01:11 PM
Op Pounce is simply to fast and has to good tracking, it might be on to have that speed and if you miss you take Same damage as the shugoki, and yes it matters if you play on console or PC dont be rediculous. The rest Of her kit might be fine but the Pounce definitly need speed and tracking nerf or some huge drawback if you miss instead Of just doing the Pounce again.

I'd personally have to disagree on the speed of it. I find it decently reactable as is. Pretty much the only time i'm tripped up is if they cancel in my face. But i'd imagine i'll get better at reading that the more I play. Anyway I think the transitions between cancels is a bigger problem then the speed of a pounce outright. As far as tracking goes though the devs have recognized that and are fixing it. Hopefully they can look into the tracking of her wildcats rage as well.

I did not say it didn't matter. I stated that you'll need better reasoning than your platform to get anywhere with the devs. You and I could argue till our fingers are worn and hurt from typing about wether or not it's an actual problem. It's not the point. The devs acknowledged a long time ago how things were more difficult on console. Their solution was giving us finer tuning controls for controllers and that was the end of it. They have stated they will not balance things seperately. So you can either accept this and move on making better arguments about your issues or you can just leave since you're not satisfied with their approach.

Correct me if i'm wrong but you can only pounce after a missed pounce if you have triggered bleed on your enemy. I think that's fine. as either way a missed pounce/bite can be GBed or dodge attacked for a counter.

Knight_Raime
11-21-2017, 01:13 PM
The centurion debacle is precisely why I mention it, that and I'm like you but opposite. I'm **** at duels, but excel at 4v4. I haven't been able to get into many skirmish matches since they changed death match up, but I'll give my thoughts on her as soon as "I have more data." :D

I'd be all over 4v4 if they could give us a mode without feats or gear. :<
tribute looks fun as heck though. I might be giving that a go once i've got a better hang of Aramusha.

Alustar.exe
11-21-2017, 01:19 PM
Correct me if i'm wrong but you can only pounce after a missed pounce if you have triggered bleed on your enemy. I think that's fine. as either way a missed pounce/bite can be GBed or dodge attacked for a counter.

That is correct, you.com only trigger the last chance mechanic when in blood trance, other wise a whiffed Hunger is extremely punishable. Hell even a miss Mercy is punishable. As of yet I haven't miss the first and been able to land the second.


I'd be all over 4v4 if they could give us a mode without feats or gear. :<
tribute looks fun as heck though. I might be giving that a go once i've got a better hang of Aramusha.

Yeah it would be nice to see a bare bones skirmish match soon, but that's a topic for another thread

Knight_Raime
11-21-2017, 01:22 PM
That is correct, you.com only trigger the last chance mechanic when in blood trance, other wise a whiffed Hunger is extremely punishable. Hell even a miss Mercy is punishable. As of yet I haven't miss the first and been able to land the second.



Yeah it would be nice to see a bare bones skirmish match soon, but that's a topic for another thread

Just wanted to be sure. I've only had that particular situation pop up twice and the first time I dodged both the first and second bite attempt and punished the second. The second instance I got nabbed by the second pounce because I wasn't close enough to punish but tried anyway because i'm overly aggressive and it gets me killed. a lot.

Alustar.exe
11-21-2017, 01:26 PM
Op Pounce is simply to fast and has to good tracking, it might be on to have that speed and if you miss you take Same damage as the shugoki, and yes it matters if you play on console or PC dont be rediculous. The rest Of her kit might be fine but the Pounce definitly need speed and tracking nerf or some huge drawback if you miss instead Of just doing the Pounce again.

The problem most players are having when dodging Hunger/Mercy is they initially attempt to dodge back. Don't ever do this. The move has three phases. The leap initiation, the run, and the pounce. Currentlyplayers are all attempting to dodge during the first two "start up" animations and this is causing a failed dodge that results in a confirmed pounce. You need to wait and time your dodge during the last prom of the run or at the start of the actual pounce, then dodge to either side. Remember, is a straight leap, so side step and be ready to steal with either a dodge attack it a light immediately after your recovery.
Or grab her. Either way

Alustar.exe
11-21-2017, 01:28 PM
Just wanted to be sure. I've only had that particular situation pop up twice and the first time I dodged both the first and second bite attempt and punished the second. The second instance I got nabbed by the second pounce because I wasn't close enough to punish but tried anyway because i'm overly aggressive and it gets me killed. a lot.

Same, I've lost more due to that than any other reason with my peacekeeper. Part of why I'm so glad to have shaman.is nice to see an aggressive assassin.

PDXGorechild
11-21-2017, 01:30 PM
What if we remove her teeth?

David_gorda
11-21-2017, 01:31 PM
Sure i dodge it about 20% Of the time when i Know its coming but i am above average player in duels. In a messy teamfight you can just forget about it. The Pounce does to much damage for the speed it has and should have a huge drawback like shugoki has if it misses and not just spam it again if you somehow manage to dodge the first one.

Alustar.exe
11-21-2017, 01:39 PM
Sure i dodge it about 20% Of the time when i Know its coming but i am above average player in duels. In a messy teamfight you can just forget about it. The Pounce does to much damage for the speed it has and should have a huge drawback like shugoki has if it misses and not just spam it again if you somehow manage to dodge the first one.

But the difference is that Shugoki had hyper armor, and cannot be interrupted during demons embrace, regenerate health and kills the opponent if the Shugoki is in critical.

Shaman can be smacked out of Mercy by anyone, is extremely vulnerable and only kills the opponent if they are almost dead anyway.

The problem here is it's a pretty key aspect of her kit that ensures survivability.
At this point is no more or less powerful than a Valkery and her CC combos.

David_gorda
11-21-2017, 01:54 PM
Can you guys that dont think shaman is op post a video where you beat a lvl 3 bot in duel best Of 5?

Alustar.exe
11-21-2017, 02:08 PM
Can you guys that dont think shaman is op post a video where you beat a lvl 3 bot in duel best Of 5?

I'll have to record one, but I'll give it a shot.
It's worth noting though, bots are not a good bench mark for player versus player, though.

David_gorda
11-21-2017, 02:12 PM
Hehe do it good luck. Going to play shaman now, finally can play it lol

CandleInTheDark
11-21-2017, 02:36 PM
Just wanted to be sure. I've only had that particular situation pop up twice and the first time I dodged both the first and second bite attempt and punished the second. The second instance I got nabbed by the second pounce because I wasn't close enough to punish but tried anyway because i'm overly aggressive and it gets me killed. a lot.

There is one problem I have with the second pounce though I guess it would be the same on the first. If I go out of stamina in activating it, it does not affect the attempt at tackling the opponent. If I had missed that second pounce I would have been in trouble, especially against the berserker it came up against, but it seemed a little cheap. Of course when they change the tracking, it might be not as much of a problem if that second pounce suddenly becomes more reactable.

Devils-_-legacy
11-21-2017, 02:58 PM
Does it matter what hero? Lol she's not impossible to beat just an annoying hero to go against like a pk on sterioids after they have tweak her numbers she will still be a very strong hero defentily has one of the best kits so its guna take a while for anyone to learn her moves I do think they should get less health from bleed and the bite does a bit more damage then it should but these are simple number tweaks I just hope it doesn't take a season and a half to do

CandleInTheDark
11-21-2017, 04:08 PM
Does it matter what hero? Lol she's not impossible to beat just an annoying hero to go against like a pk on sterioids after they have tweak her numbers she will still be a very strong hero defentily has one of the best kits so its guna take a while for anyone to learn her moves I do think they should get less health from bleed and the bite does a bit more damage then it should but these are simple number tweaks I just hope it doesn't take a season and a half to do

That is why, if people are coherent in what is wrong rather than saying everything sucks and giving no reason beside that, it should be a quicker fix, it really is all in the numbers. And that is why the OP is right, Eric has said as much on Reddit as well, thought out posts that give the devs solid feedback are more useful to them and more likely to be acted on than the sky is falling posts. I don't think it will take as long as the centurion but if people want a particular thing prioritised they need to give balanced feedback.

UbiInsulin
11-21-2017, 08:28 PM
Knight_Raime, thanks very much for this thread. While I don't want to force anyone to post in any more detail than they feel like, it is great for us to see suggested tweaks to specific parts of the Shaman's moveset, or to read about particular situations where the Shaman can be very hard to counter (and why).

The mode, the hero you're playing, and the map can all make a big difference in where you're coming from. There's no such thing as too much info from our perspective!

Bracus_Maximus
11-21-2017, 09:18 PM
Jumping attacks ( dont remember its name )

Keep all 3 directions and he speed/tracking/damage
But as its a really fast attack hard to react too because of the animation dont clearly shows from which direction will it come from, increase the reward for parrying it as like shinobi's range attack parry so the shaman gets on the ground. And/or on blocking it grants a light against the shaman.

Pounce/bite

Make it seperate by for example jumping backwards the release grants a pounce, the forward grants a bite( if the target is bleeding, if not the its also a pounce). I found many situations in 1v2 or more when i wanted that little push to ledge and not bite. Biting in 1v2 situation is a confirmed death. This may be a buff or not depends.
Now the clear nerf. By using bite the shaman enters the blood trance visually too ( i dont know why it wasnt implemented ) like raging or something which takes a little time then jumps. You cant cancel it after the entering trance is over. This means the opponent can clearly see its coming makes it only usable against a stunned/gb'ed opponent
And if its still not enough:
2. If she fails the jump the shamans hp gets drained until she can get some blood in her mouth but keeping the tracking and speed as it is now.
3. She sacrifices her own 1 bar dmg before she jumps and keeping everything as it is now ( does the same dmg as it is now but gets back her sacrificed hp too )

Edit: rep5 shaman on pc dominion/duel

CandleInTheDark
11-21-2017, 09:35 PM
3. She sacrifices her own 1 bar dmg before she jumps and keeping everything as it is now ( does the same dmg as it is now but gets back her sacrificed hp too )

I honestly don't agree with a penalty for missing, I know people make the shugoki point but ask yourself why does the shugoki have that damage on miss? Demon's embrace can come at any time,doing varying degrees of damage and healing the shugoki. Now yes predator's mercy also does damage and heals but she is not able to pull off the move at any time, she first has to make the opponent bleed. The damage on miss is effectively an anti 'spam and hope' deterrent which predator's mercy does not need due to its situational nature.

The fact that she cannot just do it at any time is the reason lacking the damage on miss is balanced in that respect next to demon's embrace. The only way that damage on miss is balanced is if shugoki has to do something else to have the move available or for the shaman to have predator's mercy, damage, healing and all, at any time.

Knight_Raime
11-21-2017, 09:55 PM
There is one problem I have with the second pounce though I guess it would be the same on the first. If I go out of stamina in activating it, it does not affect the attempt at tackling the opponent. If I had missed that second pounce I would have been in trouble, especially against the berserker it came up against, but it seemed a little cheap. Of course when they change the tracking, it might be not as much of a problem if that second pounce suddenly becomes more reactable.

Does shugo have an issue if he runs out of stamina doing the demons embrace?
But I kind of agree. I think it really seems unfair that she gets all stamina back from a bite. It enables her to be stupidly aggressive.
Which would be fine if she was a bit easier to punish. It might be something the should nerf.

Knight_Raime
11-21-2017, 09:57 PM
Does it matter what hero? Lol she's not impossible to beat just an annoying hero to go against like a pk on sterioids after they have tweak her numbers she will still be a very strong hero defentily has one of the best kits so its guna take a while for anyone to learn her moves I do think they should get less health from bleed and the bite does a bit more damage then it should but these are simple number tweaks I just hope it doesn't take a season and a half to do

If this is in relation on the fact that this thread is talking about Shaman then yes. These are rules that you should apply to any balance discussion.
In my opinion the retaliation on Shaman feels bigger than the retaliation of Centurion back when he launched. So that's why I made this thread.

Knight_Raime
11-21-2017, 09:59 PM
Knight_Raime, thanks very much for this thread. While I don't want to force anyone to post in any more detail than they feel like, it is great for us to see suggested tweaks to specific parts of the Shaman's moveset, or to read about particular situations where the Shaman can be very hard to counter (and why).

The mode, the hero you're playing, and the map can all make a big difference in where you're coming from. There's no such thing as too much info from our perspective!

Glad the post is helpful~

Knight_Raime
11-21-2017, 10:09 PM
Jumping attacks ( dont remember its name )

Keep all 3 directions and he speed/tracking/damage
But as its a really fast attack hard to react too because of the animation dont clearly shows from which direction will it come from, increase the reward for parrying it as like shinobi's range attack parry so the shaman gets on the ground. And/or on blocking it grants a light against the shaman.

Pounce/bite

Make it seperate by for example jumping backwards the release grants a pounce, the forward grants a bite( if the target is bleeding, if not the its also a pounce). I found many situations in 1v2 or more when i wanted that little push to ledge and not bite. Biting in 1v2 situation is a confirmed death. This may be a buff or not depends.
Now the clear nerf. By using bite the shaman enters the blood trance visually too ( i dont know why it wasnt implemented ) like raging or something which takes a little time then jumps. You cant cancel it after the entering trance is over. This means the opponent can clearly see its coming makes it only usable against a stunned/gb'ed opponent
And if its still not enough:
2. If she fails the jump the shamans hp gets drained until she can get some blood in her mouth but keeping the tracking and speed as it is now.
3. She sacrifices her own 1 bar dmg before she jumps and keeping everything as it is now ( does the same dmg as it is now but gets back her sacrificed hp too )

Edit: rep5 shaman on pc dominion/duel

I appreciate this reply structure.

Her dash attacks are wildcats rage for the back and front dodges. I forget the side ones but it's another wildcats one. ANYWAY.
I think the should fix the de sync on her forward/backwards dash heavies before nerfing it in any significant way. its tracking too.

Bout the pounce/bite change. That is actually a pretty clever change i'll have to think on it more. But i'm liking the sound of it.
So bleed pokes wouldn't get you into trance anymore? I'm kind of confused here on what you're attempting. a rewording would be helpful.

I don't think there should be some loss on her end for a whiffed pounce. She already gets an untechable GB if it's dodged (providing you are close enough.)
Can I ask why you want to include some kind of loss on her end for missing? What you think your change would fix?

Bracus_Maximus
11-21-2017, 10:12 PM
I honestly don't agree with a penalty for missing, I know people make the shugoki point but ask yourself why does the shugoki have that damage on miss? Demon's embrace can come at any time,doing varying degrees of damage and healing the shugoki. Now yes predator's mercy also does damage and heals but she is not able to pull off the move at any time, she first has to make the opponent bleed. The damage on miss is effectively an anti 'spam and hope' deterrent which predator's mercy does not need due to its situational nature.

The fact that she cannot just do it at any time is the reason lacking the damage on miss is balanced in that respect next to demon's embrace. The only way that damage on miss is balanced is if shugoki has to do something else to have the move available or for the shaman to have predator's mercy, damage, healing and all, at any time.

Well you wont use it unless you want to and the enemy bleeds anyway. The speed and the tracking as it is now along with the feint is too much almost a guaranteed bite. It would be the same but you would be more punished if you miss. Its also not demon embrance, its like 3x faster and feintable.
I would stay with my first suggestion to make it seperate from pounce and make a short cutscene before the jump or the second one to activate a feat like thing by the first jump which makes the shammy lose some hp slowly if she dont get any blood from the opponent's neck.

CandleInTheDark
11-21-2017, 10:56 PM
Does shugo have an issue if he runs out of stamina doing the demons embrace?
But I kind of agree. I think it really seems unfair that she gets all stamina back from a bite. It enables her to be stupidly aggressive.
Which would be fine if she was a bit easier to punish. It might be something the should nerf.

Fair point, and as I said, I would have been in trouble had I missed.


Well you wont use it unless you want to and the enemy bleeds anyway. The speed and the tracking as it is now along with the feint is too much almost a guaranteed bite. It would be the same but you would be more punished if you miss. Its also not demon embrance, its like 3x faster and feintable.
I would stay with my first suggestion to make it seperate from pounce and make a short cutscene before the jump or the second one to activate a feat like thing by the first jump which makes the shammy lose some hp slowly if she dont get any blood from the opponent's neck.

There are already natural punishes on her spamming predator's mercy though.Firstly as Raime said, if you are close enough you get a free gb, also consider this, what happens if you hit a shugoki charging at you? He takes the hit, scoops you up regardless, gets the health back. Now if the shaman gets hit, she takes damage and is hit out of the move. Predator's mercy and Demon's embrace may have the same effect but they are completely different moves which require different balancing and while the tracking and recovery should be looked at, she is or should be already punishable enough that taking damage on top of everything else is a step too far. If you want to give her a damage on miss, you also have to ask yourself how do you then balance the fact that she does not have hyper armour on it and that she cannot hit it at will at any time. Not that I think she should have hyper armour or activate on will, don't get me wrong, I am just saying that the move has different balance requirements without these and that taking damage would be excessive.

It might be hard to actually punish her right now in terms of dodging her or getting an attack in, but that is what needs to be balanced as those are natural deterrents which again demon's embrace, which is also less situational and needs the added deterrent or it would be spammed, does not have.

Pain-Seeker
11-21-2017, 11:21 PM
Playing every game mode except deathmatch (PC)

Shaman needs mostly change in numbers not the kit itself.
The things that needs to be removed is her bite being cancable . A 400ms UB , unparryable that can be feinted is the same thing as shinobis kick pre nerf . Not to say he needed to dash twice which is a lot easier to see than the little movement shaman makes. Also confimed bite on throw is ********.I can accept on a wallsplat but a simple thrown is ******ed.

Number fixes

Bite = reduce speed by 100ms . This together with the move no longer being canceable will stop the spam for free light attks or wallspat
Dodge attk = either reduce speed by 100ms at least and make it a light attk or reduce dmg to a light attk. Dont see the reason behind 500ms dodge attk with dmg of heavy .
Leaping attk= same thing as dodge attk
Throw distance = as posted by many players her thrown distance is HUGE , the highest from all characters if iam not mistaken (if iam ,sorry) lower it to any other assassins lvl .
OSS punish = this just doesnt make sense with all the things in her kit . Not realy sure how to fix this without lowering the dmg of the attks them self . Maybe allow her to chain a heavy but not the UB one
Soft feint bleed attks = on this one iam not sure about the speed itself but iam pretty sure at least top soft feint is 400ms ( not sure if all or just the top ) .500ms soft feints are more than enough .

Another thing that bothers me is her ability to chain bleed attk after whiffed UB heavy . Wasent able to parry it yet so iam not sure if it as 400ms or 500ms . But this pretty much makes the UB to safe from dodging. Since parrying is not so viable thanks to her soft feints this makes her even more unpunishable.

Alustar.exe
11-22-2017, 12:02 AM
Shaman is incredibly punishable after a whiffed Hunger/Mercy. I ate with candle that the diverge between Demons embrace and mercy are why she reacts the way she does.

It's important to note that her stage when leaping is key to watch for her attack. If she draws back and has are and dagger ready she is coming in for a wild cats rage, if she he no weapons out she will be executing hunger/Mercy.
If you haven't got block/parry times down, then it's best to dodge. ALWAYS DODGE TO THE SIDE NEVER BACK.

Knight_Raime
11-22-2017, 12:16 AM
Playing every game mode except deathmatch (PC)

Shaman needs mostly change in numbers not the kit itself.
The things that needs to be removed is her bite being cancable . A 400ms UB , unparryable that can be feinted is the same thing as shinobis kick pre nerf . Not to say he needed to dash twice which is a lot easier to see than the little movement shaman makes. Also confimed bite on throw is ********.I can accept on a wallsplat but a simple thrown is ******ed.

Number fixes

Bite = reduce speed by 100ms . This together with the move no longer being canceable will stop the spam for free light attks or wallspat
Dodge attk = either reduce speed by 100ms at least and make it a light attk or reduce dmg to a light attk. Dont see the reason behind 500ms dodge attk with dmg of heavy .
Leaping attk= same thing as dodge attk
Throw distance = as posted by many players her thrown distance is HUGE , the highest from all characters if iam not mistaken (if iam ,sorry) lower it to any other assassins lvl .
OSS punish = this just doesnt make sense with all the things in her kit . Not realy sure how to fix this without lowering the dmg of the attks them self . Maybe allow her to chain a heavy but not the UB one
Soft feint bleed attks = on this one iam not sure about the speed itself but iam pretty sure at least top soft feint is 400ms ( not sure if all or just the top ) .500ms soft feints are more than enough .

Another thing that bothers me is her ability to chain bleed attk after whiffed UB heavy . Wasent able to parry it yet so iam not sure if it as 400ms or 500ms . But this pretty much makes the UB to safe from dodging. Since parrying is not so viable thanks to her soft feints this makes her even more unpunishable.


I specifically mentioned why removing her cancel on pounce is not a good suggestion and why we should avoid nerfing speed for the moment. So I don't know why you made these suggestions.
i'm all for her dodge side heavies getting a damage nerf. We don't need lethal damage anymore thanks to removal of critical HP regen. But I want it to still be a heavy functionally for execute and OOS punish purposes.

Throw distance should absolutely be nerfed. She doesn't need that when she gets confirmed dodge/dash heavies and pounce/bite on a throw. If her confirmable damage was a lot less then I could see the need purely for wall splat reasons. the distance is currently second highest. Warlords is still higher. If you want to count raiders stampede then it would be the 3rd farthest. Nerfing her side damage heavy will nerf her max OOS punish.

Yeah top bleed is 400ms and the other 2 are 500ms. While I said we should avoid nerfing the speed of things this change in particular would be harmless. The only reason I can think of her having a faster one up top is to add some degree of predictability to her direction on the bleed poke. But really 500ms is fast enough in general. Actually her bleed pokes have a short range and next to no lunge. so dodging away is actually viable providing you have a decent dodge on your character. Really though your best counter to her whiffing on purpose is just attacking her out right. 500ms attacks or faster pretty much shut down any mix up she has providing you're close enough to her.

Alustar.exe
11-22-2017, 12:24 AM
I specifically mentioned why removing her cancel on pounce is not a good suggestion and why we should avoid nerfing speed for the moment. So I don't know why you made these suggestions.
i'm all for her dodge side heavies getting a damage nerf. We don't need lethal damage anymore thanks to removal of critical HP regen. But I want it to still be a heavy functionally for execute and OOS punish purposes.

Throw distance should absolutely be nerfed. She doesn't need that when she gets confirmed dodge/dash heavies and pounce/bite on a throw. If her confirmable damage was a lot less then I could see the need purely for wall splat reasons. the distance is currently second highest. Warlords is still higher. If you want to count raiders stampede then it would be the 3rd farthest. Nerfing her side damage heavy will nerf her max OOS punish.

Yeah top bleed is 400ms and the other 2 are 500ms. While I said we should avoid nerfing the speed of things this change in particular would be harmless. The only reason I can think of her having a faster one up top is to add some degree of predictability to her direction on the bleed poke. But really 500ms is fast enough in general. Actually her bleed pokes have a short range and next to no lunge. so dodging away is actually viable providing you have a decent dodge on your character. Really though your best counter to her whiffing on purpose is just attacking her out right. 500ms attacks or faster pretty much shut down any mix up she has providing you're close enough to her.

I question changing her throw distance, the reason I say that is due to her fast flow to either WCR(wild cats rage) or hunger/Mercy. I feel if it was reduced she wouldn't be capable of the maneuver due to the wind up/run animation,

Pain-Seeker
11-22-2017, 12:32 AM
Take a look at orochis storm rush . Even if you activate it right next to the person it still takes set amout of time to hit

Pain-Seeker
11-22-2017, 12:37 AM
I specifically mentioned why removing her cancel on pounce is not a good suggestion and why we should avoid nerfing speed for the moment. So I don't know why you made these suggestions.
i'm all for her dodge side heavies getting a damage nerf. We don't need lethal damage anymore thanks to removal of critical HP regen. But I want it to still be a heavy functionally for execute and OOS punish purposes.

Throw distance should absolutely be nerfed. She doesn't need that when she gets confirmed dodge/dash heavies and pounce/bite on a throw. If her confirmable damage was a lot less then I could see the need purely for wall splat reasons. the distance is currently second highest. Warlords is still higher. If you want to count raiders stampede then it would be the 3rd farthest. Nerfing her side damage heavy will nerf her max OOS punish.

Yeah top bleed is 400ms and the other 2 are 500ms. While I said we should avoid nerfing the speed of things this change in particular would be harmless. The only reason I can think of her having a faster one up top is to add some degree of predictability to her direction on the bleed poke. But really 500ms is fast enough in general. Actually her bleed pokes have a short range and next to no lunge. so dodging away is actually viable providing you have a decent dodge on your character. Really though your best counter to her whiffing on purpose is just attacking her out right. 500ms attacks or faster pretty much shut down any mix up she has providing you're close enough to her.

Iam not so into this to read 4 pages of posts , sorry for that. I came her to give my suggestions to devs .Her thrown distance and confirmed bite on thrown should both be nerfed/removed. Even after removal of guaranteed bite her kit wouldnt relie on wallspat . It would just increase her dmg or guarantee a higher dmg output just like with any other character

Knight_Raime
11-22-2017, 12:44 AM
I question changing her throw distance, the reason I say that is due to her fast flow to either WCR(wild cats rage) or hunger/Mercy. I feel if it was reduced she wouldn't be capable of the maneuver due to the wind up/run animation,

I don't know why she wouldn't be able to. The target doesn't have to travel the full distance of her throw for the pounce/bite to hit i'm pretty sure. But i'll double check.

Knight_Raime
11-22-2017, 12:47 AM
Iam not so into this to read 4 pages of posts , sorry for that. I came her to give my suggestions to devs .Her thrown distance and confirmed bite on thrown should both be nerfed/removed. Even after removal of guaranteed bite her kit wouldnt relie on wallspat . It would just increase her dmg or guarantee a higher dmg output just like with any other character

Well for the recap nerfing her speed would be redundant because her wild cats rage right now is bugged. The stamina consumption doesn't line up with her animation or the indicator. And with no lag comp it makes her times vary which is what's messing with most people. If they nerfed her speed and then added in lag comp they'ed likely have to revisit her speed again. So for the time being the speed of majority of her things should be left alone.

Removing the cancel on her pounce would ruin her kit in terms of the in and out style she was designed around. It would be far more productive for them to nerf the potential rewards she gets from the mix up than removing the mix up entirely.

Alustar.exe
11-22-2017, 12:50 AM
I don't know why she wouldn't be able to. The target doesn't have to travel the full distance of her throw for the pounce/bite to hit i'm pretty sure. But i'll double check.

Yeah that's what I did to, just to be sure, it took her the fill distance of the push back to wind up and right leap for mercy or rage, or to dash for the hunger. Maybe if they reduce the push back then when you fast flow the distance needed is reduce? Though that might end up lagging to spammed confirmed attacks... I don't know.

Knight_Raime
11-22-2017, 06:14 AM
Yeah that's what I did to, just to be sure, it took her the fill distance of the push back to wind up and right leap for mercy or rage, or to dash for the hunger. Maybe if they reduce the push back then when you fast flow the distance needed is reduce? Though that might end up lagging to spammed confirmed attacks... I don't know.

From testing it doesn't seem like nerfing throw range would have any effect on landing pounce/rage from throw. As both moves will travel the distance regardless of how far or short as long as you have lock on. I mean that could potentially change with tracking nerfs. But still.

Devils-_-legacy
11-22-2017, 01:06 PM
Raime My post was a reply to the guy asking to record beating a lvl 3 shaman both not sure why it didn't incorporate his message lol.
In my opinion the retaliation on Shaman feels bigger than the retaliation of Centurion back when he launched. So that's why I made this thread. Agreed but it's probably because she has a variety in her kit that more then her bite is viable with **** he had jab floor stab that's all he had going for him

Devils-_-legacy
11-22-2017, 01:07 PM
Ment to say cent at the end😂

SenBotsu893
11-22-2017, 09:11 PM
not sure if anyone brought this up but her overall hp should be reduced as well.

with an build in auto-heal she should not have maximum assasin hp.

and for 4v4 modes she even gets access to flesh wound and second wind. making her a more durable tank than some supposed to be tank characters.

other than that i agree with damage reduction on all of her Heavy attacks.

wild cats swiftness is the most rewarding dodge attack out of all characters. its on paar with the fastest attacks but exceeds in damage and is way saver to use since its a heavy. 17 or 18 damage would be appropriate if you compare to the other characters.

wild cats rage does not only have the same advantage of wildcats swiftness it also lets her attack from an insane distance. It also leads staight into her ub mix up.

Speaking of her ub. not only gets she easy access to this within her attacks its also high damage for how easy it is start up. 40 is way too much, she is not a freaking Raider. she is supposed to be this tiny fast woman who jumps arround with a little tomahawk.

the rest of her regular heavys are a tiny bit too damaging . 33 is for her character a bit too much.
just to put it into perspective: The big Lawbringer with his heavy hard hitting Poleaxe does 30 damage on his heavy.

predator Mercy/Hunger: I dont mind the damage from Mercy because thats kind of her thing where her kit revolves around.
but it needs to have a bigger wind up. Hunger at least 600 ms and maybe even a bigger wind up for Mercy since its a high reward move and thus should not be so easy to pull off.

if it gets slowed down then i dont mind the wallsplat because then it would feel like an actuall tackle that puts some force into it. as of now its like she just stumbles onto someone and that guy gets blown away like a feather in the wind.

Knight_Raime
11-22-2017, 10:13 PM
not sure if anyone brought this up but her overall hp should be reduced as well.

with an build in auto-heal she should not have maximum assasin hp.

and for 4v4 modes she even gets access to flesh wound and second wind. making her a more durable tank than some supposed to be tank characters.

other than that i agree with damage reduction on all of her Heavy attacks.

wild cats swiftness is the most rewarding dodge attack out of all characters. its on paar with the fastest attacks but exceeds in damage and is way saver to use since its a heavy. 17 or 18 damage would be appropriate if you compare to the other characters.

wild cats rage does not only have the same advantage of wildcats swiftness it also lets her attack from an insane distance. It also leads staight into her ub mix up.

Speaking of her ub. not only gets she easy access to this within her attacks its also high damage for how easy it is start up. 40 is way too much, she is not a freaking Raider. she is supposed to be this tiny fast woman who jumps arround with a little tomahawk.

the rest of her regular heavys are a tiny bit too damaging . 33 is for her character a bit too much.
just to put it into perspective: The big Lawbringer with his heavy hard hitting Poleaxe does 30 damage on his heavy.

predator Mercy/Hunger: I dont mind the damage from Mercy because thats kind of her thing where her kit revolves around.
but it needs to have a bigger wind up. Hunger at least 600 ms and maybe even a bigger wind up for Mercy since its a high reward move and thus should not be so easy to pull off.

if it gets slowed down then i dont mind the wallsplat because then it would feel like an actuall tackle that puts some force into it. as of now its like she just stumbles onto someone and that guy gets blown away like a feather in the wind.

Very good example of writing a constructive post. well done.

Forsakin1
11-22-2017, 10:55 PM
Last night I spent 20 mins in duel with lvl 3 shamen streamed it if for all to see, she can be beat but I did notice some real problems with her.

1 If in a chain a deflect from zerk and PK does not give you thier deflect move, you are interrupted by her next attack, a deflect should stumble the attacker enough to allow the move to go thru with the exception of rochi's Heavy, but the faster attacks should contact. this is also a problem I have seen with aramusha.

2 with the amount of faint's she has it is almost never ending, it's the 100 faint's half stamina problem the cent had, increase faint cost or decrease reward.

3 her pounce bite, needs to have a longer recovery time on hit, you have barely gotten back to your feet and she is right back in your face fainting again. 100ms maybe 200 would be enough.

4 her pounce both the shove and bite cost less than it should for the reward, a shove can be followed by a bite before you are done stumbling around like a drunk man, and this is after 20 faints and 3 gb.

other than these things I see her as being strong and agile yet not broken or OP but this does need to be addressed before the spam of faints and pounce get out of control.

OokiireteHoshii
11-23-2017, 03:07 AM
If i was one the guys who worked to develop shaman and saw a thread like this i would question myself on how much of a "crappy" job i did. After 9 months i don't think that everybody needs to point out what is good and bad about a character, by now i should know it right? unless i've let a monkey do the testing for me.
But seriously is OP trying lo leave a job application here?

Alustar.exe
11-23-2017, 01:58 PM
If i was one the guys who worked to develop shaman and saw a thread like this i would question myself on how much of a "crappy" job i did. After 9 months i don't think that everybody needs to point out what is good and bad about a character, by now i should know it right? unless i've let a monkey do the testing for me.
But seriously is OP trying lo leave a job application here?

And this is an example of a terrible and completely non constructive, baseless post.
Some people's kids...

OokiireteHoshii
11-23-2017, 02:31 PM
And this is an example of a terrible and completely non constructive, baseless post.
Some people's kids...

You and OP can keep blowing each other out while trying to save the world, but if i get trash i give trash back. I'm enjoying the game and ****post here and there because i won't bother when from the other side they didn't even try to release something even remotely close to balanced or fair. You are cool daddy, keep it up.
P.S eat****bytch.

Alustar.exe
11-23-2017, 06:38 PM
You and OP can keep blowing each other out while trying to save the world, but if i get trash i give trash back. I'm enjoying the game and ****post here and there because i won't bother when from the other side they didn't even try to release something even remotely close to balanced or fair. You are cool daddy, keep it up.
P.S eat****bytch.

I love seeing posts from keyboard warriors talk about balancing as if they know the first thing about development of games in general.
Git gud kid.