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Maple_Tiger
02-04-2004, 03:58 PM
I made one pass on a KI-84. I was going like 900kmh TAS. I dived from like 5km altiude, made a pass and nothing, no damage to his plane i saw some stuff fly of though. Then i extended but i could not get enough distance to turn around and get a shot.

I ended up dragging it up to 10km. I tride three times to extend and either turn around or pull a mellimun but all three times i could not get around in time.

He ended up running out of fuel lol.

I think there is something wrong with this picture.

Should not the P-47 out perform the KI-84 at 10km altitude?

should the P-47 be faster at 10km?

Should the Ki-84 be just as good as the P-47 at 10km altitude?

Maple_Tiger
02-04-2004, 03:58 PM
I made one pass on a KI-84. I was going like 900kmh TAS. I dived from like 5km altiude, made a pass and nothing, no damage to his plane i saw some stuff fly of though. Then i extended but i could not get enough distance to turn around and get a shot.

I ended up dragging it up to 10km. I tride three times to extend and either turn around or pull a mellimun but all three times i could not get around in time.

He ended up running out of fuel lol.

I think there is something wrong with this picture.

Should not the P-47 out perform the KI-84 at 10km altitude?

should the P-47 be faster at 10km?

Should the Ki-84 be just as good as the P-47 at 10km altitude?

GoodKn1ght
02-04-2004, 03:59 PM
just dont fly american planes and you should be good to go.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"

ucanfly
02-04-2004, 04:04 PM
Try a fast pass then a zoom climb, then roll and pull over to point that will intersect just behind him. When you try an intercept (from above) turn out of plane with the KI84 so that you can gain angles. then hit him and zoom away. Repeat as necessary. It helps if you use less than 100% fuel and the D-10 seems more maneuverable than other models.

Chuck_Older
02-04-2004, 04:04 PM
"just dont fly american planes and you should be good to go."

That's one H*LL of a helpful solution! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Seriously, why can't you just try to help the guy out instead of just saying "forget it"?


Tiger- how much fuel did you have? 25% might even be too much, I should think, depending on model Jug

*****************************
Why do you try to cheat, and trample people under your feet, don't you know it is wrong? ~Clash

GoodKn1ght
02-04-2004, 04:13 PM
just giving him an honest opinion, which im entitled too. Its clearly the best solution to his problem. sorry if my opinion offends u. its not the problem that they are american. its just a fact that american planes blow in this game sorry. i wish it were different too.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"

Chuck_Older
02-04-2004, 04:23 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
Nothing on an online BB offends me. You may think you have somehow caused me to feel bad with words on a PC screen, but fortunately for all that won't happen.

But you didn't offer your opinion did you? Maybe you editted it out, but I don't see where you indicated that was opinion, and in any case, it doesn't answer his question.
You seem to think he wants to know how to beat a Ki-84 under any circumstance. But that's not what he asked at all, is it? he asked, "How do you fight a Ki-84 when in a P-47?" You didn't offer a solution at all! Telling him to fly something else isn't help, it's telling him what he should do because you'd do it, apparently. That's all fine and good for you, but this ain't about you, lol

*****************************
...and I was gripped by that deadly phantom ~Clash

chris455
02-04-2004, 04:25 PM
Tiger:
proceed toward him @ 103% power, radiator closed. Orient yourself such that the Frank is slightly to your left windscreen, Dip the nose and go into a (very) shallow dive, you should be able to acheive 450+ at the merge.
Let him get adjacent to your left wingtip, then, bank toward him about 15 degrees and pull, HARD. When you are nearly in the vertical (with about 300 Kph indicated) strighten out such that you are now flying STRAIGHT up.
Hold for about 2-3 seconds only, then pull again until you come out on top of him. You see, when you go vertical, so will he, but your superior speed at the merge (if you do as I said)will enable you to out zoom climb him.
Line him up carefully and open fire at about 150 yards. Bye bye. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
If you miss (and you sometimes will) extend away in a shallow climb. he will not catch you if you disengage early enough. Yes, the Hayate is fast but SO IS THE P-47. Extend out in this shallow climb until you have turning room, plus.
Honk it around HARD, (use combat flaps if needed) until he is in your left windscreen again like he was when we just started out. Then repeat all of the above steps (which usually take far less time to do than to explain) and try again, maybe with any luck the Ki84 pilot you kill will be the clown that made the earlier smarta$$ remark about American planes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Good luck!
Chris

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

Korolov
02-04-2004, 04:38 PM
Ki-84s are a bit of a toss up. The best advantage I can think of is to get yourself a bunch of altitude above him and make passes at him till hes dead. Ki-84s aren't very tough so a sustained burst of fire onto any part of him will at the very least cripple him.

I wouldn't recommend going verticle like Chris said, due to the excellent climb capabilities of the Ki-84. What I would recommend would be to make running passes at him, and keep going head on if possible. The Frank may have cannons, but it definately doesn't have armor, and that engine is very fire-prone, especially to hits from .50 cal.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

Maple_Tiger
02-04-2004, 04:43 PM
I usualy take 50% fuel in the jug and yes i usuely live that long.

When i did get up to 10km or 10.5km i went into a shallow dive. I reached about 420 indicated after about 2 min and slowly went vertical. This did not work even with paddlock because i lost sight of the plane. even using padlock i could not get a visual. Ther where no icons lol.

2 times i also extended and turned around but i just could not turn around fast enough to even face him lol.

I think the KI84 is just too fast at 10km or the P-47 is not fast enough up there to even do anything usefull.

Mayby i should just find a server that does not have UFO's ?

GoodKn1ght
02-04-2004, 04:44 PM
yeah you should, or find a game that can accurately model high alt performance, because this one cant due to engine limitations.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"

Korolov
02-04-2004, 04:45 PM
Well if you stick with it, you gain both experience and patience, which is good. More time you spend fighting them, the better you'll get at it.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

TheGozr
02-04-2004, 04:51 PM
run

-GOZR
"TheMotorheads" All for One and One for All (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

chris455
02-04-2004, 04:56 PM
We disagree, Korolov.
You may want to try what I described, it does work.
And, Ki-84 in FB are surprisingly tough, even though we know from real life aces they weren't
(I recall reading "12 to One", Thomas B. McGuire, P-38 ace many times over)
The critical ingredient I described, high speed (in excess of 450 kph indicated) should enable you to zoom climb to a position of advantage in the P-47 vs the Ki-84.
respectfully,
Chris

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

chris455
02-04-2004, 04:57 PM
@ Maple Tiger:
would you like me to e-mail you a track?
Chris

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

Maple_Tiger
02-04-2004, 05:01 PM
Ill try what you said chris.

Gaining 450kmh indicated and Zoom clomb up.

But i usualy find when i do this type of manuver that i get waxed while i am still Zooming up lol.

Korolov
02-04-2004, 05:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris455:
We disagree, Korolov.
You may want to try what I described, it does work.
And, Ki-84 in FB are surprisingly tough, even though we know from real life aces they weren't
(I recall reading "12 to One", Thomas B. McGuire, P-38 ace many times over)
The critical ingredient I described, high speed (in excess of 450 kph indicated) should enable you to zoom climb to a position of advantage in the P-47 vs the Ki-84.
respectfully,
Chris
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem is that the P-38 has the concentrated guns while the P-47 has them spread wide, not to mention the cannon. I never had any problems with the Ki-84 being too tough. Most of the problems I have with Franks are usually its immense climb rate, excellent dive characteristics, excellent turn characteristics, and FUBAR'd high altitude physics of its FM.

Sure, going verticle is very very useful in most cases, but the Frank can easily negatate that advantage. At the merge, if both fighters are diving, the Frank will be the one with more speed - meaning it could easily catch the Jug in the verticle.

It's a interesting situation, so I'll be sure and try it. But last time I tried to escape in the verticle plane with the Jug, a Mk108 broke my back and snapped my tbolt in half.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

chris455
02-04-2004, 05:17 PM
Well, as far as the dispersion of the P-47's armament are concerned I'm with you 100%.
BTW, I would never try to "out vertical" a 109 in anything! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Good discussion-
S!
Chris

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

XyZspineZyX
02-04-2004, 05:30 PM
Chris,

Your detailed explanation reminds me of a quote by some famous real-life fighter ace who said something to the effect of, (heavily paraphrased)

"You show me a guy who flies according to formulas and speed charts with a sliderule, and I'll pit him against a guy who's simply agressive, and he'll kick the first guy's butt".

Tactics don't usually resolve around to-the-mph corner speeds and spot-on angles. They all have a bit of wiggle room in them, depending on any of a hundred different factors in play in any single situation. It's the big, broad truths that are important, like "a shallow dive will get you a lot of speed in a P-47".

Too much detail, and I can see somebody failing to use your tactic because, when he thinks to use it, that Frank isn't "exactly 45 degrees off his right side windshield", so he doesn't go for it.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Just playing devil's advocate...

chris455
02-04-2004, 05:34 PM
Here you go Maple:
http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47vs2Ki84_MT.trk
This is a track of me giving 2 "ace" Ki84's just what the doctor ordered.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

chris455
02-04-2004, 05:41 PM
Stiglr,
There is alot of truth in what you say.
BUT-
If I had told him "Just be aggressive" I would have sounded almost like the guy who said not to fly American planes.
There are however, alot of sound reasons not to get wrapped around the prop nut with tactics. That's why, on second thought, I posted a track a minute ago. Seeing is believing.
I guess another way of saying what you were saying is "a picture is worth a thousand words".
There is alot of truth in that.
P.S. and I think it was Joe Foss that made your quote!
S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

noshens
02-04-2004, 05:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>its just a fact that american planes blow in this game sorry. i wish it were different too.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its just a fact that you can't fly them. I have no troubles with any oppenent when flying p51 on late or p40 on early war servers.

georgeo76
02-04-2004, 05:50 PM
Listen to Korolov, I don't say that because I disagree w/ Chris, or because I have lot's of experience w/ the Jug. I say that because Koro has shot me down using his jug many times (and I'm no slouch stick). and you can't argue w/ success.


http://webpages.charter.net/Stick_Fiend/images/buck2.gif
"I don't think it's quite fair to condemn a whole program because of a single slip-up. "
Fiend's Wings (http://webpages.charter.net/Stick_Fiend)

TheGozr
02-04-2004, 05:57 PM
chris455

Good track but i was wondering what kind of cross air was that?

from the none cockpit style.. ???

-GOZR
"TheMotorheads" All for One and One for All (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

Maple_Tiger
02-04-2004, 06:07 PM
Taking on 2 Ki-84 aces is not that difficult in the P-47D27.

I can take out 4 of them starting at 1000m.

AI's are not even close to a human pilot. You usualy cant try the same stuff against the human pilots as you would the AI's and vise versa.

Now, if you can go online and try the same thing with two human pilots then i would be very impressed.

A.K.Davis
02-04-2004, 06:20 PM
If you are worried about not outperforming your opponent, go with the P-47D-10 or D-22. For absolute performance, you are putting yourself at a disadvantage in the D-27.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

sobolan
02-04-2004, 07:21 PM
Yeah, here "you go"...
Watched ur track using "full controls" the first time and wondered why the Ki's did not shot a you a couple of time I would have blasted you in their place.
Than replayed being only in your Jug...
Than I opened the trk file for some "insight"http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
SO:
- YOUR "ace" Ki's are in fact "skill 3" ones...meaning ROOKIEShttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Not too shaby.
- u went against 2 rookies, full tanks Ki's using a Jug and 25% fuel...
- and used "wonder women view" (no cockpit view) when shooting with deflection

Try again...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris455:
Here you go Maple:
http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47vs2Ki84_MT.trk
This is a track of me giving 2 "ace" Ki84's just what the doctor ordered.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~socrate/bazu11.jpg

TheGozr
02-04-2004, 07:24 PM
Haa it's what i though http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

so lets get soem tracks up..

who want to make a track? with noWussy wonder woman look.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

-GOZR
"TheMotorheads" All for One and One for All (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

georgeo76
02-04-2004, 07:38 PM
hehe, busted! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif


http://webpages.charter.net/Stick_Fiend/images/buck2.gif
"I don't think it's quite fair to condemn a whole program because of a single slip-up. "
Fiend's Wings (http://webpages.charter.net/Stick_Fiend)

sobolan
02-04-2004, 09:12 PM
Well, I did it...pretty strange fight though.
P-47 with 50% fuel vs 2 ACE Ki-84a with 100 fuel at 3000m.

The secret is to nail one (usually the leader) with the first head on pass...then, ur luck with the second...usually I tried to zoom after killin it's leader and jump on its back.

Well, I used only air icons (my 15 inch at 1600x1200 makes planes hard to see) and externals (after I messing them planes they were runing away...so I was ending up downing one and looking everywhere for the other one...with externals I was able to see its position on the map and orient there myself)

CONCLUSION: if you have 2000m+ alt advantage...be my guest, try 2-3 B&Zs on a Ki...after that...if he's good and evaded u while climbing...ur toasthttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Tried to verify: Ki vs 4 aces in jugs...poor guys.

http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~socrate/bazu11.jpg

chris455
02-04-2004, 09:24 PM
Sobolan:
0=Rookie
1=Average
2=Veteran
3=Ace

Now that I've proven my track was in fact flown against aces, let me share this with you:

I don't fly in Wonder Woman mode. I use the view you saw in my track (if I had anyhting to hide I would'n thave posted it) to fire ONLY. It is programmed into my Cougars trigger button. All other views are full real. Look for yourself before you impugn the honsty of others.

Also, 25% fuel is what I always use in the Jug. OK, YOU tell ME what parameters to put into the mission and I will fly it. No problem.

"Busted" indeed http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

chris455
02-04-2004, 09:30 PM
Sobolan,
Don't take my word for it, make your own track with aces for the enemy. Then look at your track file. Enemy AI will be listed as "3".

Then maybe you can apologize for calling me a liar. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

chris455
02-04-2004, 10:03 PM
Here you go:
100% fuel.
I've already established that the AI are aces, not rookies.
I still use "no cockpit" about 1% of the time, when I am closing in for the kill.
I admit it is harder with full fuel, but still very possible.

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/p47vs2ki84_full_fuel.trk

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

chris455
02-04-2004, 10:17 PM
OK last post for the evening.
Correction, that last track I posted was not 100% fuel, I sent the wrong track. I have lots of saves and sent the wrong one. Going to bed now. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

TheGozr
02-04-2004, 10:22 PM
I fly almost verytime 25 % fuel myself on dohfight.

-GOZR
"TheMotorheads" All for One and One for All (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

chris455
02-04-2004, 10:47 PM
Me too Gozr. I didn't realize that some around here consider it cheating.
Anyway, I uploaded the correct track now (above)
with 2 ACE AI, and 100% fuel.
The second one runs away, I have to hunt him dow, so it isn't as dramatic as the first. But it does show what the P-47 can do even with full fuel, which, now that I think of it, is all I ever wanted to do in the first place-
Have a good one Gozr, see ya here tomorrow I'm sure http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

A.K.Davis
02-04-2004, 11:03 PM
Wonderwoman view, even if only used for 1% of the time, has nothing to do with history. Having the lower hemisphere blocked by your aircraft's fuselage was just a fact of deflection shooting during the Second World War.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
02-04-2004, 11:05 PM
Ah, the fuel "cheat" dweeb. Some folks will take every little edge or crutch they can find, whether it's realistic or not

I take no less than 75% fuel, because no fighters went anywhere without about as much fuel as they could carry.

It is true that when combat came, you might be at half a tank at minimum....and of course, for the Germans in the BoB, they arrived over England near fuel critical...

but by and large, if you have to take off with 25% fuel to have an edge in combat... you need to learn how to fight in your plane *period*. It isn't the fuel (or its weight) that's your problem.

Also, if you can fight your plane well at full tank or 75%, you'll really be deadly if you do find yourself in a scrap at low fuel.

chris455
02-04-2004, 11:17 PM
Quote:
"I take no less than 75% fuel, because no fighters went anywhere without about as much fuel as they could carry".

Point taken. Actually since flying the P-47 for the first time in a while with full fuel, I actually enjoyed the challenge. Results were the same (2 enemy KIA) as with 25%, so, might as well add the extra realism I guess.

Stiglr, with all respect, this wasn't an online battle but a track to show tactics using the p-47. So can we go easy with the cheat and dweeb remarks? Please?

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

TheGozr
02-04-2004, 11:21 PM
Actually i fly 25 in Dogfight to give the chance to my ennemy to survive .

after killing so many you get tired also landing with no gas it's an extra spice that i like.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Good training for emergency landing ... hehehe
-GOZR
"TheMotorheads" All for One and One for All (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

J30Vader
02-04-2004, 11:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GoodKn1ght:
its just a fact that american planes blow in this game sorry. i wish it were different too.

"Friends don't let friends fly full hard"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

American planes do blow.....German fighters out of the air.

People in the squad I am in say the same thing about German planes. " They suck, they bite, they blow..."

The fact that they can't fly them is irrelevant.

Menthol_moose
02-04-2004, 11:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GoodKn1ght:
just giving him an honest opinion, which im entitled too. Its clearly the best solution to his problem. sorry if my opinion offends u. its not the problem that they are american. its just a fact that american planes blow in this game sorry. i wish it were different too.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just wondering, how many times has a American plane shot you down ?

http://simpsons.metropoliglobal.com/fotogramas/2f13/09.jpg

Eh, mates! What's the good word?

Eagle_361st
02-05-2004, 12:02 AM
Stglr,
Did you have anything useful to add to the thread? Did you offer any help? Go bash people elsewhere, and enjoy flying the sim your way. I know neither of these aircraft represent anything you are interested in, seeing as how they are not "historical" for this front and whatever else you rant about. But this was a serious question by someone asking for help, not to be belittled by a master troll such as yourself. Go back to Simhq where your not wanted either, but at least you aren't here bashing your will and views upon others. You really need to seek help with your control issues, you are not the person who dictates how any of us enjoy this piece of software we purchased for our enjoyment nor should any of us have to deal with @ssholes like you for what we fly and how we fly. Now shoo you insecure little man! &gt;:

Back on topic
The best tactic I have found for attacking the Ki-84(or any a/c for that matter) at altitude is to actually dive under them, gain speed and extend. All the while using the extra "E" you are gaining to get more altitude in hopes that you can get a good BnZ dive on them. The problem with this is they can easily turn around and start chasing you. But if you are careful and use a nice 5 degree zoom climb this will allow you to gain altitude with little loss of speed. While they will lose theirs turning around to catch you. Don't deviate, don't start turning get that altitude and situate yourself for a good run on their high 6. I prefer angle shooting from directly on top and go for the one pass kill right into the wingroot and canopy. In hopes of a PK or tearing a wing off. If you miss repeat with the speed you just gained from your dive, or if you feel you must.... pull into an immelman. But only do so if you can get away without catching his wingman on your tail. Maple hop in a server with me this week and I will demonstrate what I am talking about, just you and me. We will switch off flying together and against eachother in the P-47 and Ki-84. Chris' and Korolov's advice is also very good no matter what some people are trying to say. Always do what you are most comfortable with, I prefer to angle shoot, and keep my speed. That way I have less chance of getting caught with my preverbial pants down. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~S!
Eagle
Commanding Officer 361st vFG
www.361stvfg.com (http://www.361stvfg.com)
http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1003.jpg

Old_Canuck
02-05-2004, 12:49 AM
What I like most about this little contest of wits is the two P-47 tracks waiting on my desktop. Thanks for posting them Chris http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

OC

"You don't stop playing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop playing."

chris455
02-05-2004, 12:56 AM
Eagle, I think you said what I was trying to say, except you did it in half the time, and was twice as clear as I was. (about the tactics, I mean http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif) Thanks,
PS: I just did it again, this time without the scornful "wonder woman" view.
Thats' some hard sh** it a razorback! Worse forward view than an FW IMO!
S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

chris455
02-05-2004, 01:02 AM
Canuck, you are more han welcome. Let me know what you think. But let it be known, that after the a$$whipping I got tonight from some of the guys for using "wussy wonder woman view" , my joystick is being re-programmed TOMORROW. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

("I'll never do it again guys.........honest!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif)
S!
Chris

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

Korolov
02-05-2004, 01:02 AM
Theres a reason I fly the D-27. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

cd.jakevas
02-05-2004, 01:12 AM
just a quick mission, think it was done at 100 percent fuel. 2000m, i think. hope that helps anyone, Also wont work that smooth online http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://members.cox.net/jakevas/yea.trk

http://members.cox.net/jakevas/sig7.jpg

TheGozr
02-05-2004, 02:32 AM
I love when you guys post tracks.
It's a good way to share your flying pleasures.

And we do learn a lot from it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-GOZR
"TheMotorheads" All for One and One for All (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

AFJ_Locust
02-05-2004, 03:37 AM
Question: How do you fight a ki84 with a p47

Answer: Muahahahahhahahahahhahahah

YOU DONT !!!

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200458.jpg
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200474.jpg

WUAF_Toad
02-05-2004, 03:56 AM
The answer was right under his nose and he didn't see it... run it out of fuel and shoot it as it glides down.

Red_Storm
02-05-2004, 04:01 AM
You guys shouldve started flying FW-190's years ago when IL2 was first released instead of Yak-3's and La-7's. They've made you soft. When I go over from the FW-190 to the P-47 I find it much easier to control and get kills with.

Eagle_361st
02-05-2004, 08:45 AM
Sorry Storm I never flew the La-7 or Yak 3. I flew the P-39 in IL2, and have been a jug driver since release of FB. I sometimes will fly the P-51, but prefer my Jug. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Locust either add something useful or take a hike. I suggest you try to learn to fly the Jug, then you will understand just how deadly it can be, when flown right. The last thing you want to see is myself, Korolov, Canuk or Chris diving on you in our Jugs. I can assure you that you will be nothing more than a crater when we are done. :P

~S!
Eagle
Commanding Officer 361st vFG
www.361stvfg.com (http://www.361stvfg.com)
http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1003.jpg

VW-IceFire
02-05-2004, 08:56 AM
Here's a tip with the P-47 in a dogfight scenario...unless you know you're going to be flying for a couple of hours with the plane...a nice 25% fuel load will do really nicely. As far as beating the Ki's...the trick (and its always said) is to have the altitude advantage.

I prefer my guns at a 250 meter convergence (cannon/mg - both settings affect inner and outer guns). As soon as you have a good shot start the firepower going...sometimes in a jug its useful to offset by a degree or so either side of the target (the strange spread seems to land more guns on target that way). If you have a reasonable chance of hitting and your less than 0.35 (or just guestimate) pour on the firepower (and bring extra ammo in the first place http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). Aim for the engine or the wing...which seems most vulnerable on the Ki-84. Just keep the firepower up and he'll be a smoking ruin on the way out...

You can specialize in precision gunnery with 8 .50cal machine guns but only if you recognize that you are throwing a wall of machine gun lead rather than a thin steam of cannon fire. Think more in terms of area affected rather than steams to target.

And Ki's are tricky...fast, manuverable, and good climb. So don't worry about it the first time...

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
The New IL2 Database is Coming Soon!

Red_Storm
02-05-2004, 09:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eagle_361st:
Sorry Storm I never flew the La-7 or Yak 3. I flew the P-39 in IL2, and have been a jug driver since release of FB. I sometimes will fly the P-51, but prefer my Jug. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Locust either add something useful or take a hike. I suggest you try to learn to fly the Jug, then you will understand just how deadly it can be, when flown right. The last thing you want to see is myself, Korolov, Canuk or Chris diving on you in our Jugs. I can assure you that you will be nothing more than a crater when we are done. :P

~S!
Eagle
Commanding Officer 361st vFG
http://www.361stvfg.com
http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1003.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was just blowing off some steam, but fair enough. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I warn you, us Focke-Wulf Luftwaffe boys can kick some serious butt too! Respect to you P-47/P-39 jocks. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Maple_Tiger
02-05-2004, 11:50 AM
I have a question for some of you fine P-47 pilots.

If i were to take 100% fuel instead of 25 or 50%, would i not dive faster?

Or what if i have 100% fuel and went into a shallow dive and picked up some speed; like chris and Eagle where saying and go into a 5 deg climb. Would i not have a better Zoom climb then i would have if i had taken 25% fuel?

and yes Eagle ill need some help on some manuvers. I realy have trouble with planes that seem to want to fallow me up to the heavens lol.

Korolov
02-05-2004, 11:55 AM
Never really noticed that myself with 100%. 100% basically just makes you more stall prone and overall makes the Jug harder to fly.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

chris455
02-05-2004, 12:01 PM
Maple,
After my "exposure" as a 25% fuel guy, I humbly tried it a couple of time with full fuel, and I will say that E-retention SEEMED better slightly, but it may have been just a perception. I may go back to 75% or even 50% fuel. One thing Stiglr said that WAS true, was about fuel. I know that Jug pilots almost never went across the channel without some form of droptank (even paper ones- YES, Paper! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif) and in the Pacific, before the N model, they must have done the same thing.
But a fight with 100% fuel could be considered unrealistc too, since it implies a combat immediately after takeoff (unless we go back to talking about drop tanks) Even with droptanks, run up and takeoff was accomplished with internal fuel for safety reasons.
S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

crazyivan1970
02-05-2004, 12:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maple_Tiger:
I made one pass on a KI-84. I was going like 900kmh TAS. I dived from like 5km altiude, made a pass and nothing, no damage to his plane i saw some stuff fly of though. Then i extended but i could not get enough distance to turn around and get a shot.

I ended up dragging it up to 10km. I tride three times to extend and either turn around or pull a mellimun but all three times i could not get around in time.

He ended up running out of fuel lol.

I think there is something wrong with this picture.

Should not the P-47 out perform the KI-84 at 10km altitude?

should the P-47 be faster at 10km?

Should the Ki-84 be just as good as the P-47 at 10km altitude?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Simple answer http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0109830/1-1.jpg

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

WUAF_Badsight
02-05-2004, 12:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maple_Tiger:

I think the KI84 is just too fast at 10km or the P-47 is not fast enough up there to even do anything usefull.

Mayby i should just find a server that does not have UFO's ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


ok let me ask you how fast the KI-84 was at 10,000 ?

do you know ?

at 7000m it could do 427 mph

in FB you can acheieve that only thru overheating ....I.E. ITS NOT OVERMODDELED IN ITS SPEED

NO-ONE knows how fast it was at 10,000m .... the american test doesnt state that , go look & find a 10,000 m speed & post it here ....... i bet it wont come from the american test

i find it funny that people think that japanese plane should be inferior to american planes

WHY ????????

fact is they were EXCELLENT designs , the Hayate should hand the Mustang its a$$ up high or low

better power , lower wing loading , better power loading .... what makes you think the Jug would be better than the mustang up high against the KI-84

cut the japanese plane bias out plz ..... its lame

[This message was edited by WUAF_Badsight on Thu February 05 2004 at 11:23 AM.]

Sturmtrooper
02-05-2004, 12:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I tride three times to extend and either turn around or pull a mellimun but all three times i could not get around in time.


What's a mellimun ?
Do you mean Immelman ?

Nissan 300ZX V-6,DOHC,Twin Turbocharged,2970cc,300+hp - What I drive .

WUAF_Badsight
02-05-2004, 12:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Ah, the fuel "cheat" dweeb. Some folks will take every little edge or crutch they can find, whether it's realistic or not <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well if you actually treid other planes besides German ones Stigler you would see how much of an a$$ that statement makes you look

you can fly nearly 45? min in the jug with 25% fuel

same with the Mustang

get out of your Bf109 mr fanboy & test other planes

taking over 50% fuel in the Jug or Mustang is NEVER NEEDED

50% in the Jug is one side of the GoF map & back + a survival type DogFight in-between

guess youll never know tho Stigler in you FWs or BFs

AFJ_Locust
02-05-2004, 01:34 PM
Badsight you canot defend the KI anymore LOL
everyone in this sim knows its overmodled....

Sure its probly close to reality below 7000m

but this bird flys better than a jug @ 11000m its crazy !!!

sure maybe you dont fly @ 11000m but us who do & find Ki84s up here killing us where they dont belong its very ANNOYING to say the least !!!

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200458.jpg
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200474.jpg

Korolov
02-05-2004, 02:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
ok let me ask you how fast the KI-84 was at 10,000 ?

do you know ?

at 7000m it could do 427 mph

in FB you can acheieve that only thru overheating ....I.E. ITS NOT OVERMODDELED IN ITS SPEED

NO-ONE knows how fast it was at 10,000m .... the american test doesnt state that , go look & find a 10,000 m speed & post it here ....... i bet it wont come from the american test

i find it funny that people think that japanese plane should be inferior to american planes

WHY ????????

fact is they were EXCELLENT designs , the Hayate should hand the Mustang its a$$ up high or low

better power , lower wing loading , better power loading .... what makes you think the Jug would be better than the mustang up high against the KI-84

cut the japanese plane bias out plz ..... its lame
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, the Ki-84-1a was capable of 392mph at 20,000ft. Maximum flight ceiling was 34,450ft. The Tbolt went 428mph at 30,000ft and had a max ceiling of 42,000ft. Yet the Ki-84 really doesn't have any problems at those altitudes, and the Tbolt struggles to stay that high.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

VW-IceFire
02-05-2004, 02:13 PM
Wait...so using 25% fuel is cheating? Ha! That is hilarious!

The 25% fuel load still gives the Jug better endurance than a 109 and I dare say that neither Luftwaffe, nor RAF, nor VVS, nor USAAF, nor anyone would fight on a full fuel tank except in the most adverse of conditions (ie. a scramble - even then you may not be fully fuled).

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
The New IL2 Database is Coming Soon!

chris455
02-05-2004, 02:19 PM
No, Ice-fire. it's cheating. Stiglr says so. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
02-05-2004, 02:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Korolov:

Actually, the Ki-84-1a was capable of 392mph at 20,000ft. Maximum flight ceiling was 34,450ft. The Tbolt went 428mph at 30,000ft and had a max ceiling of 42,000ft. Yet the Ki-84 really doesn't have any problems at those altitudes, and the Tbolt struggles to stay that high. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

wrong Korolov .... we have the american test KI-84

it did 427 Mph @ 7000m

as for AFJ_Locust
"but this bird flys better than a jug @ 11000m its crazy !!!"

WHATS SO CRAZY ?

it has better wing loading

it has better power loading

it should eat P-47s easy

or do you just think that jap stuff has to be crap ?

am i right ? , or areyou basing your opinion on actual plane design knowledge &gt;?


BTW locust the TAS goes up as you go higher , but you probably already "know" that as well

the KI-84's speed in FB S NOT OVERMODDELD

you have to overheat it to get it to top speed

chris455
02-05-2004, 02:58 PM
These figures tend to support Korolov. Badsight, if you have other sources by all means post them.
PS, I have always been an admirer of Japanese aircraft, I'm just posting what I found. If I find some references with a top sped of 427, I'll post those too.
(I seem to recall something along those lines anyway)

http://www.angelfire.com/fm/compass/Hayate.htm

Data

Origin:
Nakajima Hikoki KK Also built by Mansyu Hikoki Seizo KK and (3 Ki-106) Tachikawa Hikoki KK

Type:
Single-seat interceptor and fighter-bomber

Span: 36' 11" (11.238 metres)Length: 32' 7" (9.92 metres)Height: 11' 1" (3.385 metres)

Engines:
In all production models - One 1,900 hp Nakajima Homare Ha-45 Model 11 18-cylinder two-row radial

Armament:
(Ki-84-1a)
2 x 20mm Ho-5 cannon in wings, each with 150 rounds
2 x 12.7mm Type 103 machine-guns in upper fuselage, each with 350 rounds
(Ki-84-Ib)
4 x 20mm Ho-5 cannon (2 in wings, 2 in fuselage) each with 150 rounds
(Ki-84-Ic)
2 x 30 mm Ho-105 cannon in wings, 2 x 20 mm Ho-5 cannon in fuselage
(all models)
Two racks under outer wings for bombs or fuel tanks up to 250 kg (550 lbs) each

Performance:
Maximum speed 388 mph (624 km/hour) / Initial climb (typical) 3.600 feet (1,100 metres) per minute
Service ceiling 34,450 (10,500 metres)
Range on internal fuel 1,025 miles (1,650 kilometres)
Range with 98-gallon drop tanks 1,815 miles (2,920 kilometres)

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

chris455
02-05-2004, 03:07 PM
Ooops I almost forgot. Check out the Ki-84's ROC.

3,600ft/min (initial)

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

This plane was a climbing fool.
S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

StellarRat
02-05-2004, 03:12 PM
Just make a head on pass at the KI they are easy to put holes in while the 47 doesn't die that easy. Seem to work more than 50% of the time.

Maple_Tiger
02-05-2004, 03:25 PM
Sorry Badsight

But i do think the KI-84 is over modeled.

I have never herd any where that it could match the P-47 or P-51 at high alt.

Also it lost its performance at 25,000f i beleave.


I just got back from Slammins server like 10 min ago.

I got credit for two kills, these where BF109's.

I had no troubly out running them up high.

Was the Ki-84 faster then the BF109K4?

MiloMorai
02-05-2004, 03:31 PM
Sorry don't want sound like Mr. Nighty-night but is a plug for the P-47N. No problems with any Ki-84s then, for sure.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



Long live the Horse Clans.

noshens
02-05-2004, 03:32 PM
I support all others who say that Ki is overmodeled, especially at high altitudes and high speed manuverability.

Chuck_Older
02-05-2004, 03:37 PM
One thing to remember when referring to real historical combat ready aircraft of the second world war is that the construction standards were not by any means consistently high in some a/c. A perfect Hayate might be the best thing going, but then again, what about the average quality examples of very good a/c that were poorly built, maintained, or repaired in-feild?

A historical non-WWII example would be Korean War era MiGs. Great aircraft. Some pilots would not fly it to it's full potntial because of wing failures, so all of it's performance was not exploited all the time. I'm sure some F-86 pilots got the impression that a MiG 15 was a crummy plane because the MiG driver didn't want to shed a wing, and so didn't turn full G.

In wartime Japan, I can easily see how a country like Japan might have trouble with consistent high quality of new aircraft construction, or proper routine servicing of the same aircraft.

In FB we do not have a/c that suffered from poor construction from unskilled, rushed, or unitelligent workers. We also do not have things like pilot fatigue or routine mechanical failures, unless it is from pilot error. Engine parts are always right in spec, and fuel quality is always high. No oil leaks unless from battle damage, etc.

*****************************
the soldier boy, for his soldier's pay, obeys the sergeant at arms, whatever he says ~Clash

chris455
02-05-2004, 03:39 PM
Very good point Chuck.
Also goes far to explain the variation (sometimes significant)evident in various test reports on the same aircraft type.
S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

darkhorizon11
02-05-2004, 03:42 PM
To who ever started this forum:

Don't be detered or discouraged by all the Jr. Nazis in this forum. In the right hands American planes are far more capable and potent anything the axis had. It just takes practice, learn the corner airspeeds for each plane you fly and try to hold it on the "knife edge" as some call it. Also the fastest way to turn 180 degrees is to pull out power, roll about 45 degrees on the invert and crank it back till your on the verge of a stall (if your slow enough drop combat flaps). Be careful at low altitude, the ground has a much higher PKA ratio than any enemy fighter your against, human or AI.

Don't get me wrong, the German and Jap planes are pretty good. But I've wasted everything with ease in Mustangs and Jugs. Nothing is impossible. The Jugs is a little harder because, well, it was the biggest fighter in World War II. But once your guns bear down on him he's toast. After awhile you'll almost feel bad for 109s, 190s, and 262s as they disintegrate in your sights http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

chris455
02-05-2004, 04:03 PM
Well.............that oughtta calm things down around here.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
02-05-2004, 04:25 PM
chris455 you are looking at japanese specs for the KI-84

the KI-84 in FB is based on the american tests that they did with acaptured version

it did 427MPH at 7100m

WUAF_Badsight
02-05-2004, 04:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maple_Tiger:
I have never herd any where that it could match the P-47 or P-51 at high alt.

Also it lost its performance at 25,000f i beleave. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes its true the KI-84 had a lot of historical operating troubles

some of these was poorly made components

the motors had overheating troubles & failures from bad construction

this limited their performance IRL

they also had a single stage supercharger which was not good for high ALT performance

BUT IN FB NO PLANE IS MODDELED WITH MANUFACTURING PROBLEMS

we get factory perfect condition planes

the KI was abetter airframe for high alt maneuervering than the Jug .... period

similer size but with better wing design

lower wing loading , lower weight

it if turns well at high ALT , check your jap predujice at the door & dont be surprised

lrrp22
02-05-2004, 04:32 PM
Exactly, what we have in FB is an AMERICAN Ki-84, circa 1946. Your numbers are for a thoroughly restored and tuned Ki-84 running on U.S. fuels and wieghing more than 450 lbs below its combat weight.

This is not the airplane that the Allies faced in the Pacific War.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Korolov:

Actually, the Ki-84-1a was capable of 392mph at 20,000ft. Maximum flight ceiling was 34,450ft. The Tbolt went 428mph at 30,000ft and had a max ceiling of 42,000ft. Yet the Ki-84 really doesn't have any problems at those altitudes, and the Tbolt struggles to stay that high. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

wrong Korolov .... we have the american test KI-84

it did 427 Mph @ 7000m

as for AFJ_Locust
"but this bird flys better than a jug @ 11000m its crazy !!!"

WHATS SO CRAZY ?

it has better wing loading

it has better power loading

it should eat P-47s easy

or do you just think that jap stuff has to be crap ?

am i right ? , or areyou basing your opinion on actual plane design knowledge &gt;?


BTW locust the TAS goes up as you go higher , but you probably already "know" that as well

the KI-84's speed in FB S NOT OVERMODDELD

you have to overheat it to get it to top speed<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WUAF_Toad
02-05-2004, 04:34 PM
You people need to put your thinking caps on. The ability to fly faster doesn't mean you can beat your opponent easily. Heck the 190 is faster than the yak-3 at the deck. Go fight a yak-3 at the deck with a 190 and see what happens. So even though the jug is faster than the KI up high doesn't mean it should beat it easily... common sense... come on.

WUAF_Badsight
02-05-2004, 04:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by yay1:
I support all others who say that Ki is overmodeled, especially at high altitudes and high speed manuverability.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well i cant help you with your predjudice , youll just have to accept that japanese plane design was excellent

they made turn-fighting extrodinair A/C

WUAF_Badsight
02-05-2004, 04:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lrrp22:
Exactly, what we have in FB is an AMERICAN Ki-84, circa 1946. Your numbers are for a thoroughly restored and tuned Ki-84 running on U.S. fuels and wieghing more than 450 lbs below its combat weight.

This is not the airplane that the Allies faced in the Pacific War.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yea are you sure ?

i read that all they did was fill the captured KI-84 up with gas .... & that was it

im saying it was based on the american test as the object viewer says 424 Mph & the american test got 427 Mph

oleg might be using another source that he found

lrrp22
02-05-2004, 04:43 PM
Badsight,

Don't you think that a Japanese fighter should be modeled to Japanese factory spec's? I do.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
chris455 you are looking at japanese specs for the KI-84

the KI-84 in FB is based on the american tests that they did with acaptured version

it did 427MPH at 7100m<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WUAF_Badsight
02-05-2004, 04:45 PM
ok ... you tell me what tests the Ki-84 is based on & then we both will know for sure

or did maddox games just pull numbers out of a hat ?

lrrp22
02-05-2004, 04:52 PM
Well apparently it's modeled to the Middletown, PA spec's because, as has been posted repeatedly, Japanese Ki-84-1a tests showed a top speed of between 388-392 mph.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
ok ... you tell me what tests the Ki-84 is based on & then we both will know for sure

or did maddox games just pull numbers out of a hat ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

dbcooper
02-05-2004, 04:53 PM
If you have superior E get him to go vertical
and rope him...if not run like hell.

Korolov
02-05-2004, 05:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Toad:
You people need to put your thinking caps on. The ability to fly faster doesn't mean you can beat your opponent easily. Heck the 190 is faster than the yak-3 at the deck. Go fight a yak-3 at the deck with a 190 and see what happens. So even though the jug is faster than the KI up high doesn't mean it should beat it easily... common sense... come on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The speed of the Ki-84 I can live with - its ability to outclimb, outturn, and outrun any plane in the game below 8000m I can live with. However, with a ceiling much lower than that of USAAF and other planes, it makes one wonder when a Ki-84 pulls ahead of you at 10000m, when that is well above the Ki-84s maximum ceiling.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

Maple_Tiger
02-06-2004, 09:33 AM
Your right Korolov.

The top speed for the KI-84 is 687kmh TAS at 6100m. Atleast that is what it says in the FB objects vewer.

With that being said then the Ki-84 should lose its performance if it gose beyond 6100m.

P-51's top speed is 703kmh TAS at 7600m. That being said then the P-51 should out run the KI-84 at 7600m.

P-47s top speed is 698kmh TAS at 9100m. Thats 3km higher then the KI-84s top speed.

3km should reduse the over all top speed of the KI-84 dramaticaly.


Some may not agree but it would realy help also if the P-51 and could reach 703kmh TAS without over heating at 7600m. This is 1.5km higher then the KI-84's top speed. But becuase the P-51 over heats at 670 or 680kmh TAS then some times i find that the KI-84 can catch me. Which is of cours BS lol

WUAF_Badsight
02-06-2004, 11:55 AM
oh yea i also have tested the Mustang

it will NOT reach max speed without overheating & its also DAMM HARD to get it to 700 with 100% fuel as you should be able too

that last 40 Kmh is theoretical really as it takes so much effort to achieve it

its still pretty fast for a 1600 Hp plane

the KI-84 also is VERY hard to get it to its top speed

it will not get there without overheating & the last 10 Kmh requires perfect still level flight or you wont get there , all the time overheating ...... just as you have too in the Mustang as well

ZG77_Nagual
02-06-2004, 12:04 PM
I know for sure that Oleg got data on the ki from japan. The main drawbacks the plane had historically had to do with manufacturing problems - obviously these are not modeled in the simm. I don't fly the 47 much - but in the p40, p51 and p39 I have very little trouble with the kis - unless they are unusually well flown. It is the best dogfighter currently in the simm - in my opinion, which sounds about right given it's rw performance.

WUAF_Badsight
02-06-2004, 01:23 PM
EXACTLY


try telling that to people who are american fanboys tho

to them nothing japanese could ever have performed well

so much they know

just wait till we get the Raiden or the Hayate with 30mm's

SERIOUS OWNERSHIP is gunna happen

lrrp22
02-06-2004, 01:36 PM
As usual, we have no idea where Oleg got his data.

This evening I am going to post a Japanese pilot's views regarding his flights in a captured P-51C and how it compared to the Frank.

edit: BTW, apparently the definition of an American Fanboy is anyone that doesn't subscribe to the notion that all U.S. aircraft (except the P-39) should be modeled at, or below, bare minimum spec's while all others should exhibit absolute best possible performance.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
EXACTLY


try telling that to people who are american fanboys tho

to them nothing japanese could ever have performed well

so much they know

just wait till we get the Raiden or the Hayate with 30mm's

SERIOUS OWNERSHIP is gunna happen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WUAF_Badsight
02-06-2004, 01:44 PM
seriously there seems to be bias about the japanese Ever producing a plane that had good performance

what utter rubbish

KIMURA
02-06-2004, 01:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maple_Tiger:
Your right Korolov.

The top speed for the KI-84 is 687kmh TAS at 6100m. Atleast that is what it says in the FB objects vewer.

With that being said then the Ki-84 should lose its performance if it gose beyond 6100m.

P-51's top speed is 703kmh TAS at 7600m. That being said then the P-51 should out run the KI-84 at 7600m.

P-47s top speed is 698kmh TAS at 9100m. Thats 3km higher then the KI-84s top speed.

3km should reduse the over all top speed of the KI-84 dramaticaly.


Some may not agree but it would realy help also if the P-51 and could reach 703kmh TAS without over heating at 7600m. This is 1.5km higher then the KI-84's top speed. But becuase the P-51 over heats at 670 or 680kmh TAS then some times i find that the KI-84 can catch me. Which is of cours BS lol<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Sorry Marple

But your tests don't worth the effort you had with. IAS and TAS should be the same speed @SL @20?C at a specific atmospheric pressure, BUT it isn't in FB. So all tests with speeds of any kind are simply WRONG, so also the speeds you're discussing. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

chris455
02-06-2004, 02:15 PM
QUOTE:
"Sorry Marple

But your tests don't worth the effort you had with. IAS and TAS should be the same speed @SL @20?C at a specific atmospheric pressure, BUT it isn't in FB. So all tests with speeds of any kind are simply WRONG, so also the speeds you're discussing."

Kimura, help me understand what you are saying here.

Agreed; IAS and TAS should be identical @ SL given a temperature of 20 Deg.C and "a specific atmospheric pressure: (I'm assuming a pressure of 1 atmosphere at sea level?) but then you lose me-
If FB isn't true to this principle, then what formula DOES it follow?
I guess what I'm asking is:
If what you are saying is true, then why, when corrected for density altitude, the true airspeeds for nearly all FB planes agree with the data in the object viewer, which in turn agree (give or take) with most generally accepted data on these planes OUTSIDE of FB?

S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
02-06-2004, 02:21 PM
regardless of wether FB SL TAS & IAS are equal the speed we reach in FB at any given alt should be the same as RL stats

Maple_Tiger
02-06-2004, 02:55 PM
Sorry Marple

But your tests don't worth the effort you had with. IAS and TAS should be the same speed @SL @20?C at a specific atmospheric pressure, BUT it isn't in FB. So all tests with speeds of any kind are simply WRONG, so also the speeds you're discussing.


I guess you missed my point.

Ok ill try and explain in such a way that youl understand.

In real life the P-51 and P-47 was faster then any Jap plane in WW2... At high altitude.

it makes no sence that the KI-84 can catch the P-51 or P-47 up there.

that my point and its not biased it's a Fact!

A.K.Davis
02-06-2004, 03:07 PM
Okay, Il-2Compare shows the P-51 pulling ahead of the Ki-84 at about 6500m and the P-47D-10 gaining the lead at around 8000m. In my experience, comparison of curves in Il-2Compare is reliable, even though the absolute numbers are not correct. However, there is very little separation in the climb curves at high altitude (none with P-51, slight edge for P-47). Perhaps people are mistaking Ki-84s catching P-51s in a flat out run for Ki-84s catching P-51s in a climb? My experience in the Hayate at high alt. is limited, so I can't really say.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
02-06-2004, 03:47 PM
if people get caught in their fav plane by a plane they dont like then of course ..... the bandit plane simply has to be overmoddeled

i mean for sure it must be ,..... i was in a plane i liked , no way should i ever get shot down in it

Maple_Tiger
02-06-2004, 05:43 PM
Badsight,

I think you just cant except the the fact that the P-47 or P-51 is a better plane then the Ki-84 at high altitude in real life.

Also i never said anything about the Ki-84 or Jap planes being crappy. Nor did i say that i did not like the KI-84.

but i have flown the KI-84 and agaist it enough now to realize that it is over modeled.

WUAF_Badsight
02-06-2004, 06:16 PM
im not a fan of the KI-84

dont like its guns or its roll rate

but after testing its speed is absolutly spot on with the object viewer

why put the plane down when by all rightsit should have the turn advantage over the Jug at all alts ?

its not a heavy dog like the jug is eeven tho its the same size

you seem to want the Jug to be dominant over it ... BUT SHOULD IT ?

do you have roll rates for the KI .... i dont maybe it rolls to fast

it sure has awesome elevator authority but it also blacks you out quick & hard

people here (mainly american plane fans) jump on the jap planes as if they should be easy kills

they should learn about plane design instead as they were not backwards hicks : (

Maple_Tiger
02-06-2004, 08:01 PM
Well the P-47 and or P-51 has better performance at high altitude while the Ki-84 should have a lesser performace, then yes it should be out turned.

I mean if a ki-84 in real life was at 10km altitude do you realy think it will have the power to manuver with the P-47 when it can bairly stay at 10km? i mean come on.

Shure the P-47 has a higher wing loading but if its apponent has can bairly stay up there then how can the KI-84 turn with the P-47.

sorry, i dont think so. not up that high.

Cajun76
02-06-2004, 08:22 PM
Actually, a P-51 and a Frank have almost the same dimensions, and the Jug dwarfs them both. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/Realfire_02.gif
Have you thanked a veteran today?

chris455
02-06-2004, 08:25 PM
Found this, and alot more, here:
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/ki-84.html

"Engine shortages and delays were a constant problem for the Hayate. Although the Ha-45 engine had been plagued with production difficulties all throughout its life, most of the delays in deliveries were caused by frequent visits of 20th Air Force B-29s to the Musashi engine plant during the last year of the war. This plant was hit by B-29 raids on no less than twelve occasions between November 24, 1944 and August 8, 1945. Production was able to continue at the Musashi plant until April 20, 1945, when it was finally put out of business for good and all production came to a standstill. Operations were transferred to an underground plant at Asakawa. and to a new plant at Hamamatsu, and a trickle of engines still continued to flow, but the supply of engines never reached the previous peak. Because of the production delays and components shortages, the quality of the Ha-45 engines delivered steadily deteriorated as the months passed, and later engines were considerably less powerful and less reliable than those initially delivered. By June of 1945, the lowering of manufacturing standards had cut the climb rate of the fighter so severely that the aircraft was virtually useless at altitudes over 30,000 feet".

Knowing Olegs dedication to quality, he seems to have ordered only the highest quality Ki-84s for FB! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

chris455
02-06-2004, 08:32 PM
From the same source:
"In 1946, a captured late-production Hayate was restored and tested at the Middletown Air Depot in Pennsylvania. At a weight of 7490 pounds, the aircraft achieved a maximum speed of 427 mph at 20,000 feet, using war emergency power. This speed exceeded that of the P-51D Mustand and the P-47D at that altitude by 2 mph and 22 mph respectively. These figures were achieved with a superbly maintained and restored aircraft and with highly-refined aviation gasoline, and were not typical of Japanese-operated aircraft during the later stages of the war".

I think that sheds some light of Badsight and Maple Tigers debate:

Badsight is correct in that a Ki-84 could, under certain conditions, outperform US fighters at altitude, while;

Maple Tiger seems to be correct in his statements that wartime Ki-84s shouldn't perform as well as they do in FB, especially at altitude.

Is this a fair assesment?

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
02-06-2004, 08:46 PM
no plane in FB has operating troubles included

Mk108 dont jam in DFs

LAs dont mist up

ect ect

this is a good thing for funs sake & shall be reversed in BoB

the fact that the KI had operating troubled reflects on it performance that it was capable of IN NO WAY

when people read the history of the KI , especially it operating troubles , they can lose sight of how good a design it was

a planes max alt is determined mainly by its motor & power , just because you are high doesnt mean you should necessarily turn bad , the KI-84 had much lower wing loading than the Jug

remember this is a low alt game

your complaints really are true for all planes as altitudes over 6Km are not well represented in FB

A.K.Davis
02-06-2004, 08:49 PM
oh, I don't think anyone wants Oleg to model the teething troubles of the Mustang, so watch what you ask for.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

WUAF_Toad
02-06-2004, 09:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Korolov:

The speed of the Ki-84 I can live with - its ability to outclimb, outturn, and outrun any plane in the game below 8000m I can live with. However, with a ceiling much lower than that of USAAF and other planes, it makes one wonder when a Ki-84 pulls ahead of you at 10000m, when that is well above the Ki-84s maximum ceiling.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All your claims are false.

Maple_Tiger
02-07-2004, 01:27 AM
I think bought of you missed my point.

Every plane has a maximum top speed at a certain altitude. KI-84 was able to achieve 687kmh TAS only at 6100m.

Same for the P-51. It could only achieve 703kmh TAS at 7600m

Same for the P-47D10. It could only acheive 697kmh TAS at 9100m

Once a plane exceeds this Maximum top speed At Altitude its performance or speed would drop the higher it went.

Follow me so far? I cant explain it any more simpler.

This means that if the KI-84 could ony acheive 687kmh TAS at 6100m then its top speed would drop the higher it went. This goes for all planes.

This being said, then the Ki-84's top speed at 7600m would be less then 687kmh TAS. Same for the P-51, it loses its top speed when it exeeds 7600m. Thats why the P-47 is faster then the P-51 at very high altitude. The P-47 never reached its top speed until it reached 9km lol.

My point then, the Ki-84 is no mach at high altitude against the P-51 or P-47.

Also the KI-84 ceiling was only 11,582m while the P-47 and P-51's ceiling was about 12,800m.

WUAF_Badsight
02-07-2004, 01:49 AM
having just tested the KI & Jug together ........

the Jug is faster up at 10K

your complaining is unfounded