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Hawgdog
10-03-2003, 10:55 PM
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/contents.htm

Photos on site. Incredible damage to B-17's that still friggin' flew home!!!
Kind of makes you laugh when hollywood sends a 9mm thru an airplane and everyone gets sucked out LOL
regards-


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Hawgdog
10-03-2003, 10:55 PM
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/contents.htm

Photos on site. Incredible damage to B-17's that still friggin' flew home!!!
Kind of makes you laugh when hollywood sends a 9mm thru an airplane and everyone gets sucked out LOL
regards-


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XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 11:12 PM
B 17 were never pressurized, otherwise the same thing would have happened to them as happens to modern aicraft

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 11:26 PM
makes u realise how nasty war is

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 12:44 AM
Very good website.


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XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 01:29 AM
Thats just NUTZ!

See the nose on that B17?!


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XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 01:34 AM
Those pics are amazing! I've seen one pic(not on that site)where the entire front part of the plane is blown away,from the nose to behind the cockpit. The pilot,copilot,and bombadier died instantly. Luckily,the B-17 still flew level long enough for the rest of the crew to bail out. The interior was described as being a huge wind-tunnel. I hope Oleg models the intense damage those babies could take,accurately!

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XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 01:35 AM
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/photos/wings/wingedge.jpg


On one occasion the Germans tried dropping bombs from a captured B-17 onto a formation attacking the Rhineland. Luckily, the bombs didn't explode as they crunched through this 331st Bomb Group B-17's wing trailing edge.

KG200.

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XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 01:40 AM
StG77_Fritz_X wrote:
- <- On one occasion the Germans tried dropping bombs
- from a captured B-17 onto a formation attacking the
- Rhineland. Luckily, the bombs didn't explode as they
- crunched through this 331st Bomb Group B-17's wing
- trailing edge.
-
- KG200.
-
- <

I would think that it is more likely to have been bombs from another B-17 in a formation above. I have seen photos published where that happened.

Hawgdog
10-04-2003, 01:46 AM
http://www.armyairforces.com/aircraft.asp

followed a link on the site
whew cool stuff

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XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 06:18 AM
this is all old news but still amazing

well my name was spelled wrong

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 06:46 AM
Makes me feel very uneasy seeing that kind of stuff.


Lixma,

Blitzpig.

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 09:12 AM
"A rocket fired by an enemy fighter inflicted this damage on The Sack, a B-17 of the 379th Group. A 14-inch fragment of the rocket tore the pants off of the turret gunner without hurting him."

LMAO

Imagine the guy getting out of the plane at base with his pants off...

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 11:02 AM
ive got a great book on gun camera footage, showing combat damage, and another book on the b-29 showing the "damage" from a runaway propeler, it cut the whole front end off on either take off or landing (cant remember), end result was b-29 in 2 almost surgically severed parts and no crew hurt, or the miraculeous photo about af an IAF f-15 eagle involved in a mid-air, took all the right wing off, and still landed

Konigwolf

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 11:26 AM
There is only one snag in this line of thought. Whereas these pictures proof one end of the damage spectrum - those a/c which were damaged beyond believe and STILL managed to get home.

It ignores the other, perhaps statistically more important one of a/c abandoned while actually still in a flyable state, though with the crew convinced it would not carry them back home.

I always use Robert Johnson's epic P-47 story as an example.

First hit, a/c out of control and plummeting, Johnson thinkingabout nothing other than getting the hell out ASAP, (un)fortunately his canopy is stuck and he's forced to think of alternatives and only now he finds his a/c still to be in a flyable condition.

There is a similar story of Vorosheykin (and certainly more, but not that I remember by name).

Certainly with multi-engine a/c, its often a matter of damage control and experience (although the latter is always a factor).

But to go back to the beginning, these pictures are just an example of one side of the spectrum, I have pointed out to the opposite, in the middle is the bulk which just crashed...period.


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XyZspineZyX
10-05-2003, 12:37 AM
This doesn't include B-17s, but Avengers, and describes a piece of history that happened at Bod√¬ł in Northern Norway during Operation Leader:


"As a junior ensign in the Torpedo Squadron, I was flying wing on Lt(jg) Burt (Trex) Trexler. As we flew over a German tanker, Trex wobbled his wings as a signal to attack. He started to roll into a glide bombing position when he realized the fighters had not strafed the target. I did not see Trex abort the attack as I went into my dive. I made 2 runs on the ship at nearly masthead level dropping 2 bombs each time. On the second attack, just before I pushed the bomb release over the ship, my engine took a direct hit. There was a small explosion with a brief flash of fire and smoke over the cockpit as I pushed the pickle, releasing the 2 remaining bombs. One 500-pounder landed on the deck of the tanker. The ship exploded and ran aground as it burned.

Earl Garner, my turret gunner, shouted, "We're on fire!" I hauled back on the stick to gain altitude, then picked up the mike and shouted over the intercom: "Bail Out!"

At about 1000 feet I opened the hatch, sprang my safety belt and started to climb out of the cockpit. I thought my crew had already bailed out. Fortunately, in the confusion as I was preparing to jump, I forgot to pull the radio cord from my helmet. Consequently, I heard a call from Garner: "Don't jump, don't jump! Jackson's popped his chute in the plane and he can't get out!" It seemed that my belly-gunner, C. P. Jackson, in his excitement, had accidentally pulled his ripcord inside the belly of the TBF and the spring-loaded silk was released. He tried several times to bundle the slippery silk in his arms and work his way through the narrow door, but no such luck--he was trapped.

As I settled back into the cockpit, I picked up the mike and gave instructions to Jackson and Garner to fasten their safety belts and prepare for a crash landing. Our plane was still over the shipping lanes not far from the burning tanker.

With no way to land on that rough, rocky shore of Norway, I chose to make a water landing. I started letting down toward one of the small islands. Then I realized our plane was the lone target on concentrated A/A fire. It got hotter as we lost altitude. I began to think we would never make it all the way to the water before being shot down so I shoved the throttle forward and headed toward the open sea, taking some violent evasive action.

About 2 miles out I started climbing to gain altitude. The plane was still laying down a stream of smoke. I checked the cockpit instruments expecting to see several red warning lights, but there were none! Oil pressure, OK; cylinder head temperature, OK; tachometer and throttle, working. I was carrying about 30 inches of mercury. What a relief!

Now, some quick planning. I seriously considered going to Sweden--a neutral country closer than the carrier, but one look at the rough mountains with no place to land, plus the danger of A/A fire, soon convinced that a try for the USS Ranger was my best bet. I pulled the plotting board out of the instrument plane and made a rough calculation to obtain a heading for the task force.

A few minutes later I spotted several torpedo planes and joined them in formation. By now radio silence was broken by various distress calls, but I still didn't use the mike. I signaled to one of the pilots and pointed to my engine. He flew around Four-Tare-Nine and gave me the thumbs-up signal. As the plane continued to smoke, I wondered how the engine could still run. I watched the instruments carefully as I concentrated on the rest of the 100-mile flight over the cold North Atlantic. A water landing now offered little chance of survival.

When I finally spotted the task force, the USS Ranger, alerted to the approach of returning planes, had started turning into the wind. Breaking away from the other planes, I headed straight for the carrier. My canopy was completely covered with oil so visibility was limited. I dropped the wheels and tail hook and opened the flaps. The oil pressure was about gone, but the hydraulic system seemed to be functioning.

My first pass over the carrier was almost crosswise to the flight deck. The ship was still heeled over from its turn into the wind. Looking out the side of the cockpit, I spotted the signal officer giving me an emphatic wave-off. As I began my second attempt I knew I could not make a standard approach, nor could I follow the signal officer's hand directions through the oil-covered canopy.

But, with some visibility out the right side of the cockpit, I placed the ship's island about where it should be to line up with the flight deck, then chopped the throttle, pulled the stick into my lap to stall the plane, and hoped for the best.

Luckily, my tail hook caught the wire just as our plane hit the barrier and the right wing hit the ship's island. As the plane crashed, I released my safety harness and jumped out onto the wing. Plane handlers were spraying the smoking plane as I slid off the wing and ran forward on the flight deck. My crew escaped at the same time.

As we ran toward the hatch that led to the ready room, the flight deck officer stepped quickly into my path, grabbed the front of my flight suit and shouted: "You son of a bitsh! You landed on a wave-off and fouled up the flight deck. Now, how the hell am I going to get the other planes aboard?"

I shook the air officer's hand loose from my flight suit and went on down to the ready room knowing I might face a court-martial. To land on a wave-off was a major offense.

A few minutes later we were informed that the flight deck was cleared and other returning planes were landing. I told my story, but no one gave me any assurance that I would not receive a reprimand. I have the Skipper to thank for helping me out of an embarrassing situation, and later recommending me for the Air Medal. My initiation as a boot ensign in Torpedo 4 was over."

Skarphol






Those darned typeos!



Message Edited on 10/05/0312:41AM by Skarphol

XyZspineZyX
10-05-2003, 03:41 AM
necrobaron wrote:
- Those pics are amazing! I've seen one pic(not on
- that site)where the entire front part of the plane
- is blown away,from the nose to behind the cockpit.
- The pilot,copilot,and bombadier died instantly.
- Luckily,the B-17 still flew level long enough for
- the rest of the crew to bail out. The interior was
- described as being a huge wind-tunnel. I hope Oleg
- models the intense damage those babies could
- take,accurately!
-

I just re-watched the movie Memphis Belle. The plot incorporates a lot similar incidents into the film.

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XyZspineZyX
10-05-2003, 04:29 AM
BPO6_PANP wrote:
- B 17 were never pressurized, otherwise the same
- thing would have happened to them as happens to
- modern aicraft


Which would be essentially nothing, assuming you're referring to the "bullet through the pressurized hull" bit.

Modern pressurized aircraft are far from airtight. If they were, they'd pop like a balloon when they were operating at altitude. Cabin pressure is regulated with valves, and any hole made by a couple of shots from a gun isn't going to do much, if anything, to depressurize the aircraft.

In general, it'd take a lot more than a couple of bullet holes to start depressurizing a modern aircraft, and even then it wouldn't be the explosive, huge wind type you see on TV (which in itself is incorrect).

It's not a big deal, at all, really.

That said, unpressurized aircraft such as the B-17 will have a slight advantage over pressurized types when it comes to sucking up damage. However anything large enough to really make a difference to a pressurized plane would seriously harm either type and make the total loss of the aircraft much more likely.

XyZspineZyX
10-05-2003, 09:48 PM
i just hope they get the Damage model right in FB.
The b-17 could withstand huge ammounts of battle bamage and still make it home. But i expect that like all US aircraft they will get that wrong too. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-05-2003, 09:57 PM
Remember, these were exceptions. For every one pic like this hundreds of others crashed. It's just a matter of luck. There were German bombers which made it home with this ammount of damage too. As there were Polish, British (Lancaster!), French etc. etc.

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XyZspineZyX
10-05-2003, 10:26 PM
A lot of people are saying they hope the damage is modeled accurately (and so do I), but I wonder if they realize that many of those monstrous holes were mande (according to the site) by a *single* LW 20mm round.

Now, think of how many you have to put into VVS *fighters* to do that kind of damage.

Hawgdog
10-06-2003, 02:58 AM
And a lot of rocket holes too, some collisions.
Should stir the whiner pot!

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